Clean It Up

UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Perfect Windows on August 18, 2014, 12:29:57 pm

Title: Problem brown door
Post by: Perfect Windows on August 18, 2014, 12:29:57 pm
So, this happened at a customer's the other day.

I arrive and clean.  On arrival, the door doesn't stand out as unusual (but I didn't look terribly closely).  A couple of hours after the clean, the customer (terrific customer, has recommended me to six other people) calls, upset that her door has "streaks all over it".  When I went back to look, I have to say that I think I'd have noticed it as I walked up to the house.  I didn't notice at the end of the clean because when it's wet, it looks OK.

The picture below is what I found.  It's not streaks on it, it's as though the colour's disappeared from the UPVC.  The surface sheen seems to be missing on the white bits.

Customer is as staright as a customer could be and she says no decorating work or anything done (and, as I've said, it seems to be an absence of colour rather than something spilled on it).

I have an idea what it might be but I'm not going to prejudice views, so have any of you come across it and was there a way to resolve it?  Strangely, a day or two later, I saw another brown door looking very similar elsewhere.

Vin

(http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q797/Onionman9999/BrownDoor_zpsdd712062.jpg) (http://s1359.photobucket.com/user/Onionman9999/media/BrownDoor_zpsdd712062.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Problem brown door
Post by: Smudger on August 18, 2014, 12:44:26 pm
If I remember soupy had one similar - did you use TFR or anything vin?

A lot of these coloured doors have a very thin veneer which can easily be ruined with chems.

It may buff out with a Cretan cleaner...

Darran
Title: Re: Problem brown door
Post by: Mike #1 on August 18, 2014, 01:19:10 pm
Brown and green ones seem to have some issue with this white marking or staining only very small on 2 doors that i do nothing as bad as the door in pic .

When they are fitted new custys are always told do not use any chemicals on these new composite doors at all , Personally on my own door and use a really good quality  plastic trim spray or cream  which is used for car valeting and never had any issues .

My doors have looked like new even after 2 years and never had any staining issues , Could be a faulty veneer finish which is what happened in the last post about this issue . Mike
Title: Re: Problem brown door
Post by: Perfect Windows on August 18, 2014, 01:20:06 pm
If I remember soupy had one similar - did you use TFR or anything vin?

A lot of these coloured doors have a very thin veneer which can easily be ruined with chems.

It may buff out with a Cretan cleaner...

Darran

No chemicals used, ever.

Cretan = cream?

Vin
Title: Re: Problem brown door
Post by: Perfect Windows on August 18, 2014, 01:21:07 pm
Door has been there for about ten years, I believe.

Vin
Title: Re: Problem brown door
Post by: Soupy on August 18, 2014, 01:43:44 pm
I went to the supplier with this exact problem on 2 houses.

Thistle windows replaced both doors stating it was a 'bad batch'.
Title: Re: Problem brown door
Post by: Soupy on August 18, 2014, 01:50:32 pm
http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=170332.0

Hope that helps.
Title: Re: Problem brown door
Post by: Smudger on August 18, 2014, 02:39:18 pm
Oops -,how the hell does an ipad make Cretan out of cream ???

Darran
Title: Re: Problem brown door
Post by: Perfect Windows on August 18, 2014, 02:54:01 pm
http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=170332.0

Hope that helps.

Very much; thanks.

Vin
Title: Re: Problem brown door
Post by: Jonny 87 on August 18, 2014, 03:10:27 pm
I really struggle to think its possible just pure water could do that?
Title: Re: Problem brown door
Post by: Perfect Windows on August 18, 2014, 03:30:56 pm
For what it's worth, I think the colour has oxidised in sunlight - it's partly shaded and those bits are fine.  I suspect it's been breaking down slowly for some time, then this time there's been a 12-week gap with loads of sunshine.  Then in the way you sometimes get milky water on old white frames, the colour has washed out in one go when I cleaned the door, so it looks like it's me that did it.  I walk up to a brown door that looks OK, then walk away leaving it looking like that.

The biggest problem for me is that I really like the customer and she's as good a customer as you could wish for (as I mentioned, loads of referrals), so I just don't want to hack her off. 

The other thread suggests that if it's still under warranty the door supplier just needs to admit that it wasn't up to grade.

She moved into the house four years ago so I'm just hoping the previous occupants left her details of the window people.

Vin
Title: Re: Problem brown door
Post by: SeanK on August 18, 2014, 03:40:38 pm
Try a bit of Tcut and see if that will polish it up, maybe its just the lacquer that's went a bit milky.
 
Title: Re: Problem brown door
Post by: H20cleaning on August 18, 2014, 03:50:08 pm
Dont accept any liability... We use purified water? Rain water would do more harm so without using any soaps how could this possibly be you?

Unless you have washed a wooden white painted door just before? And its coated your brush in milky water....(very unlikely)
Title: Re: Problem brown door
Post by: Mike #1 on August 18, 2014, 04:06:47 pm
It is obviously not your fault but because the problem arose after you cleaned the door automatically the custy has looked to you and of course you feel responsible to try and sort this issue out without having to pay any hefty bills or lose the custy .

Really difficult situation , Hopefully they can contact the supplier/fitter of the door and get it al sorted asap . Mike
Title: Re: Problem brown door
Post by: Perfect Windows on August 18, 2014, 04:10:16 pm
My focus is on resolving the issue.  What the customer needs here is a new door.  How that happens is up for discussion.

Vin
Title: Re: Problem brown door
Post by: stephen.b1 on August 18, 2014, 04:23:26 pm
the water has acted like a magnifying glass and burnt the coating  i had this on a building site of ten houses doors facing the sun were like this doors in the shade were ok i dont pole doors now
Title: Re: Problem brown door
Post by: Smudger on August 18, 2014, 06:00:51 pm
B.1. That's a good shout.

Vin, is it a stain is there a residue or is it through the coating ??

If it's a residue then try white vinegar

Going forward, liability or not and they are a good customer the fact remains after cleaning it it's come up bad. I'd be prepared to meet the cost of repair (if poss) or  cost of replacement failing that submit a claim  through your insurance

Darran
Title: Re: Problem brown door
Post by: Clever Forum Name on August 18, 2014, 06:09:36 pm
We had exactly the same issue last year. We still clean the house but we must not clean it with water. Even rain water makes it streaks. 

The customer has this special dye and she coats it every couple of months.

We had WFP the door for 3 years then BANG this happened. So annoying but hey ho.
Title: Re: Problem brown door
Post by: Perfect Windows on August 18, 2014, 06:12:48 pm
B.1. That's a good shout.

Vin, is it a stain is there a residue or is it through the coating ??

If it's a residue then try white vinegar

Going forward, liability or not and they are a good customer the fact remains after cleaning it it's come up bad. I'd be prepared to meet the cost of repair (if poss) or  cost of replacement failing that submit a claim  through your insurance

Darran

Definitely not a stain - the surface is gone.

Off to see them in a few mins.

Option 1: they know who fitted them and we follow that up
Option 2: I pass on to my insurers
Option 3: I try to polish a test area once insurers are involved

Vin
Title: Re: Problem brown door
Post by: Smudger on August 18, 2014, 06:17:53 pm
Good luck vin, keep us upto speed on what happens

Darran
Title: Re: Problem brown door
Post by: colin purewater on August 18, 2014, 06:29:33 pm
I wonder if they have used brasso on the letter box  and that's why it's only
On the bottom the the door were it's been cleaned on the way down

It's the drip from the letter box that makes me suspicious
Title: Re: Problem brown door
Post by: Soupy on August 18, 2014, 07:14:58 pm
B.1. That's a good shout.

Vin, is it a stain is there a residue or is it through the coating ??

If it's a residue then try white vinegar

Going forward, liability or not and they are a good customer the fact remains after cleaning it it's come up bad. I'd be prepared to meet the cost of repair (if poss) or  cost of replacement failing that submit a claim  through your insurance

Darran

Definitely not a stain - the surface is gone.

Off to see them in a few mins.

Option 1: they know who fitted them and we follow that up
Option 2: I pass on to my insurers
Option 3: I try to polish a test area once insurers are involved

Vin

FYI, I spent a few quid on solvents etc and 4+ hours trying to polish the surface to no avail.
Title: Re: Problem brown door
Post by: Smudger on August 18, 2014, 07:20:33 pm
Can these doors be refinished ? Ie anything that can be sprayed on?

Darran
Title: Re: Problem brown door
Post by: Perfect Windows on August 18, 2014, 07:48:26 pm
I wonder if they have used brasso on the letter box  and that's why it's only
On the bottom the the door were it's been cleaned on the way down

It's the drip from the letter box that makes me suspicious

One of the panels in the door surround (the side that would get the sun) is also gone.  Not inthe pic but just as bad.

Vin
Title: Re: Problem brown door
Post by: Perfect Windows on August 18, 2014, 07:51:11 pm
Sooooo.  Went to see them.

Door is two years old and they have a 25 year guarantee.  They are taking it up in the morning.  They just wanted me to tell them it wasn't something I'd put on it.

We'll see what they say.

Vin
Title: Re: Problem brown door
Post by: Smudger on August 18, 2014, 07:59:26 pm
Sounds promising, at 2 years old there should be no quibbling on a replacement

Darran
Title: Re: Problem brown door
Post by: alfie11 on August 18, 2014, 08:25:58 pm
I have a some of this on my door, I looked into it and a wild guess by me is

Doors have a fire retardent in them which seems to break down the clorine at a faster rate combined with uv damage is breaking down the clorine in the pvc (nearly 60% of pvc is clorine) clorine mixed with hydrogen makes hydrogen chloride, hydrogen chloride mixked with water  makes hydrochloric acid and I think that what causes it on doors


probably total b0llox  ;D
Title: Re: Problem brown door
Post by: Elfyn on August 18, 2014, 08:26:14 pm
Just a thought - would a car polish work - I'm thinking along the lines of the coloured (brown) wax?
Title: Re: Problem brown door
Post by: 8weekly on August 18, 2014, 08:42:20 pm
Just a thought - would a car polish work - I'm thinking along the lines of the coloured (brown) wax?
Boot polish? You could buff it up.
Title: Re: Problem brown door
Post by: Mike #1 on August 18, 2014, 09:31:16 pm
I use meguiars ultimate protectant on my own door and window frames which has a uv protective formula I have also used a polymer based spray both of which have kept windows and doors looking like new .

Good to hear they have 25 year guaruntee fingers crossed all goes well . Mike
Title: Re: Problem brown door
Post by: duncan h on August 18, 2014, 10:32:01 pm
no it wont polish etc the door is duff. read posts
Title: Re: Problem brown door
Post by: Perfect Windows on August 18, 2014, 11:08:57 pm
Just a thought - would a car polish work - I'm thinking along the lines of the coloured (brown) wax?

On the day she showed it to me, I did a tiny area with Autoglym polish.  It did come up better than it was, but nowhere near good, though I was pretty halfhearted.  Might be worth it before scrapping the door.

Vin
Title: Re: Problem brown door
Post by: Tadgh O Shea on August 19, 2014, 12:48:57 am
Hi Vin, i reckon its possible that after you left the job and the surface had dried out, your customer saw some water spotting which would show up well on that colour door, probably went looking in the cupboard under her sink picked up some cleaner with caustic or corrosive ingredients and proceeded to spray it on the door as you can clearly see the run marks/etch marks as the chemical will have run down the door, most cleaning professionals will know from experience that you should always when using a chemical cleaner spray a vertical surface from the bottom and work up to the top, as this will stop the chemical causing run marks on the surface, again i would ask your customer did she spray any chemical cleaner on the door surface after you left, it shows all the evidence of chemical etch marks running down the door and your average householder would have no idea about always spraying chemical cleaners from the bottom up on a vertical surface to stop these run marks, if it helps you out Vin we do carry an aircraft quality wax which would be far more effective than the Autoglym one you tried, it really depends how deep the etch marks are gone into the substrate, if you want to give it a go send me your Shipping address to info@jskcleaning.ie and i will send you over a bottle to see if it might rectify the problem.
Regards Tadgh
Title: Re: Problem brown door
Post by: Soupy on August 19, 2014, 12:57:30 pm
Just a thought - would a car polish work - I'm thinking along the lines of the coloured (brown) wax?

On the day she showed it to me, I did a tiny area with Autoglym polish.  It did come up better than it was, but nowhere near good, though I was pretty halfhearted.  Might be worth it before scrapping the door.

Vin

I tried foilsafe solvent. Got the door really clean but the discolouration was still there.

I also tried t-cut which certainly made a difference but I got the feeling it was removing the damaged surface which wasn't going to do the door any favours long term. Also I think it would have needed a good number of hours to get it anything like new - if indeed that was even possible.

If the door is under warranty the vendor should sort it.

Quote from: Tadgh O Shea
i reckon its possible that after you left the job and the surface had dried out, your customer saw some water spotting which would show up well on that colour door, probably went looking in the cupboard under her sink picked up some cleaner with caustic or corrosive ingredients and proceeded to spray it on the door as you can clearly see the run marks/etch marks as the chemical will have run down the door,

I don't think that's the case. If you look at my post from last year it was during a hot period (I had 2 cases within 3 days). I think the heat/sun has had an adverse effect on the wet surface of the door, as it was a 'bad batch' as stated by the supplier.
Title: Re: Problem brown door
Post by: CleanClear on August 19, 2014, 07:13:28 pm
I've seen this marking and staining on the brown UPVC window frames, and also fading on them. Also, brown frames are the only ones i ever get real spotting problems.