Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: KS Cleaning on July 27, 2014, 12:00:19 am
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Just got back from a 2 week holiday in Florida this morning. Got a text from an employee this afternoon, he has dislocated, and torn ligaments in his shoulder playing football, and will be off work for a minimum of 6 weeks :'(. I am obviously a bit worried it will be longer than this due to the nature of WFP'ling, has any WFP'lers had this type of injury? and are there likely to be ongoing problems due to the rigours of poling and carrying a back pack by the handle?
This may also interest those of you who are considering employing. I think I will have to pay out SSP of £87.00 per week. This of course can be claimed back but it is a ball ache all the same.
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I don't know but six weeks seems optimistic. But I reckon he'll be keen to return to work sooner rather than later if getting SSP.
It's a bad one for wfp'ing. Can't he do some ground floor trad work?
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Im just about shaking off the old tennis elbow from wfp work but it does take its toll on the bones over time!
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I dislocated my shoulder about 7/8 years ago playing football. I was working as a labourer at the time and had 6 weeks off. Doctors said it was ok to go back to work. 6 months in I was in lots of pain so had physio. Another 6 months went by and I finally got a scan, it was quite bad so had to have an operation. I decided to get back into sales so I could at least work after the op. A year after the first operation I had to have a second operation.
Window cleaning does aggravate it quite a lot and I have to keep reminding myself to pole differently, because they left it so long I was using my shoulder blade differently and get aches with that now. We're really busy at the moment so I am on the tools more but I try to do less which helps. He needs to get a scan done (NHS will try not to do it as it costs them so much money and fob him off with physio). He could potentially be off a fair bit more if he has torn his rotator cuff, nasty injury :/
Tom
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I don't know but six weeks seems optimistic. But I reckon he'll be keen to return to work sooner rather than later if getting SSP.
It's a bad one for wfp'ing. Can't he do some ground floor trad work?
Aye, re-reading his text he says he has to do 'nothing' for 6 weeks, so a guess it will be a bit o physio required after the 6 weeks. He will be getting a wee bit o insurance money per week from the football team ( a know this because a used to be asst manager ) which will help to make up his wages, but a don't think he will milk it, he is a good lad. He has only been with me for 5 months and in that time he has just used WFP, so he has no experience in trad, a guess now will be a good time to train him up as WFP will prob be a no no fir a while.
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Seriously get him to push for a scan. He needs to tell them he is in agony constantly, can't dress himself properly, can't sleep properly, can't work, can't do anything because of the pain. If he has physiotherapy after tearing his ligaments, rotator cuff etc he will be out of action for a lot longer. He has to lay it on thick and get a scan because they will 'hope' that physio fixes it.
Tom
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I dislocated my shoulder about 7/8 years ago playing football. I was working as a labourer at the time and had 6 weeks off. Doctors said it was ok to go back to work. 6 months in I was in lots of pain so had physio. Another 6 months went by and I finally got a scan, it was quite bad so had to have an operation. I decided to get back into sales so I could at least work after the op. A year after the first operation I had to have a second operation.
Window cleaning does aggravate it quite a lot and I have to keep reminding myself to pole differently, because they left it so long I was using my shoulder blade differently and get aches with that now. We're really busy at the moment so I am on the tools more but I try to do less which helps. He needs to get a scan done (NHS will try not to do it as it costs them so much money and fob him off with physio). He could potentially be off a fair bit more if he has torn his rotator cuff, nasty injury :/
Tom
A hope he has a wee bit more luck than you seem to have had :o. Aye the rotator cuff is a bad one if that is the case. He has already had x ray done, and heard back from orthopaedic surgeon, who says he has separated 2 bones, and ligaments have popped out, so a would guess they are gonna wait to see how it heals then take it from there. A will speak wi him tomorrow as this was just the info a got fi him by text. A had to have physio maself about a year back as a had impingement in the shoulder, am sure the physio pointed out to me the rotator cuff was taking all the strain of the poling, he also told me to alter ma technique ( with the WFP!! ) or a would keep havin problems wi it.
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Hopefully he'll be ok, but a x-ray won't show if there are any real problems :/
My wife to be keeps telling me to get another scan done. Basically when I eventually had the scan they saw what they call a 'loose body' in my shoulder. But decided to do key hole surgery at the last minute which meant they couldn't get it out. So the second operation was to remove it, but they couldn't find it. The surgeon said the first surgeon (confused yet??) didn't tighten up the muscles at the front of my shoulder, only the back. I have private medical now so I will do it on that at some point.
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Just got back from a 2 week holiday in Florida this morning. Got a text from an employee this afternoon, he has dislocated, and torn ligaments in his shoulder playing football, and will be off work for a minimum of 6 weeks :'(. I am obviously a bit worried it will be longer than this due to the nature of WFP'ling, has any WFP'lers had this type of injury? and are there likely to be ongoing problems due to the rigours of poling and carrying a back pack by the handle?
This may also interest those of you who are considering employing. I think I will have to pay out SSP of £87.00 per week. This of course can be claimed back but it is a ball ache all the same.
If he doesn't do as the doctor says he'll be off work a lot longer. It'll keep dislocating if he doesn't allow it to heal and strengthen.
My missus's shoulder dislocated 8 times last year. She had an op in January to sort it but it's only today she is anywhere near back to some sort of operating strength. Probably has about 80% mobility and 60% strength back. The doc told her it would take a year to sort itself out totally. The physio reckons she may well never be 100%.
The damage a dislocation causes just exacerbates after every trauma. Tracey's just fell out once when she was in the bath, the warm water relaxed the muscles and it slipped out.
So let him recover, no pressure or you'll be a man down for a lot longer.
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I've just re-read what you've written.
He's buggered. It sounds like he's torn a ligament off the bone. That'll require surgery. He'll be out a long time. A year most likely if that's the case.
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you probably know this - but you may not get all your ssp back - its used to be linked to nic contributions but I am sure there were some changes from April this year here is a quick search but as always do your own research, I may be incorrect..
http://elsbyandco.co.uk/employers-will-no-longer-be-able-to-claim-ssp-from-6th-april/#.U9SxHeNdX84
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you probably know this - but you may not get all your ssp back - its used to be linked to nic contributions but I am sure there were some changes from April this year here is a quick search but as always do your own research, I may be incorrect..
http://elsbyandco.co.uk/employers-will-no-longer-be-able-to-claim-ssp-from-6th-april/#.U9SxHeNdX84
Aye a knew they had changed it, I will speak to ma accountant tomorrow. Like you said, it used to get deducted from your PAYE bill, now a believe it gets deducted from your tax bill, so will take longer to recoup the money :'( and even then am not sure if it's 100% tax deductible.
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I've just re-read what you've written.
He's buggered. It sounds like he's torn a ligament off the bone. That'll require surgery. He'll be out a long time. A year most likely if that's the case.
He has to go back to orthopaedics midweek, so will prob get a better idea of what the damage is then, and if it is healing properly, I have told him to ask the consultant what the timescale for recovery is likely to be given the nature of the job, depending on the outcome of this I may have a decision to make, although I hope not.
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I dislocated my shoulder 3 years ago..fell off ladders..luckly im rght handed did my left shoulder.i work trad went bck to work after 2 days I worked with a pole and just trad bottoms.. Charged customers half price...if I didnt work for myself I wouldnt have gone bck to work its very painfull..bills to pay so had no choice..i was bck on ladders after a month working one handed which was very dodgy..if he has to have operation he wont be working for 3 months at least.. Took me 2 years to be working properly with left arm you cant lift it above your shoulders
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you probably know this - but you may not get all your ssp back - its used to be linked to nic contributions but I am sure there were some changes from April this year here is a quick search but as always do your own research, I may be incorrect..
http://elsbyandco.co.uk/employers-will-no-longer-be-able-to-claim-ssp-from-6th-april/#.U9SxHeNdX84
Aye a knew they had changed it, I will speak to ma accountant tomorrow. Like you said, it used to get deducted from your PAYE bill, now a believe it gets deducted from your tax bill, so will take longer to recoup the money :'( and even then am not sure if it's 100% tax deductible.
Well it's worse than a thought, you can't claim back SSP at all now :'( :'( :'(. I have been told by my accountant that this issue is a big bone of contention for small businesses who like myself employ part time workers .
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you probably know this - but you may not get all your ssp back - its used to be linked to nic contributions but I am sure there were some changes from April this year here is a quick search but as always do your own research, I may be incorrect..
http://elsbyandco.co.uk/employers-will-no-longer-be-able-to-claim-ssp-from-6th-april/#.U9SxHeNdX84
Aye a knew they had changed it, I will speak to ma accountant tomorrow. Like you said, it used to get deducted from your PAYE bill, now a believe it gets deducted from your tax bill, so will take longer to recoup the money :'( and even then am not sure if it's 100% tax deductible.
Well it's worse than a thought, you can't claim back SSP at all now :'( :'( :'(. I have been told by my accountant that this issue is a big bone of contention for small businesses who like myself employ part time workers .
Bet you wish you had a zero hours contract.
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I would have him out dropping leaflets for his hrs
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You no longer get ssp back but you have got a £2000 ni deduction so it should even out ok...
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You no longer get ssp back but you have got a £2000 ni deduction so it should even out ok...
I don't have a £2000 ni deduction, because employing part time I don't pay that amount of ni in the first place, only when you employ full time on decent wages will you save the £2000. My employees are on 24 hours per week so there was hardly any ni or employers tax to pay. I can remember it vividly now, the big grin on the chancellors face saying businesses can save UP TO £2000 with the new changes......nothing about wiping their hands of SSP....Tory spin.
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you probably know this - but you may not get all your ssp back - its used to be linked to nic contributions but I am sure there were some changes from April this year here is a quick search but as always do your own research, I may be incorrect..
http://elsbyandco.co.uk/employers-will-no-longer-be-able-to-claim-ssp-from-6th-april/#.U9SxHeNdX84
Aye a knew they had changed it, I will speak to ma accountant tomorrow. Like you said, it used to get deducted from your PAYE bill, now a believe it gets deducted from your tax bill, so will take longer to recoup the money :'( and even then am not sure if it's 100% tax deductible.
Well it's worse than a thought, you can't claim back SSP at all now :'( :'( :'(. I have been told by my accountant that this issue is a big bone of contention for small businesses who like myself employ part time workers .
Bet you wish you had a zero hours contract.
Yep, I think this is the way ahead for many small businesses.
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I would have him out dropping leaflets for his hrs
I know what you are saying, but you can't do that, he would have to be signed back to work on lighter duties.
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you probably know this - but you may not get all your ssp back - its used to be linked to nic contributions but I am sure there were some changes from April this year here is a quick search but as always do your own research, I may be incorrect..
http://elsbyandco.co.uk/employers-will-no-longer-be-able-to-claim-ssp-from-6th-april/#.U9SxHeNdX84
Aye a knew they had changed it, I will speak to ma accountant tomorrow. Like you said, it used to get deducted from your PAYE bill, now a believe it gets deducted from your tax bill, so will take longer to recoup the money :'( and even then am not sure if it's 100% tax deductible.
Well it's worse than a thought, you can't claim back SSP at all now :'( :'( :'(. I have been told by my accountant that this issue is a big bone of contention for small businesses who like myself employ part time workers .
Bet you wish you had a zero hours contract.
I've looked into this and a zero hours contract wouldn't have made any difference because my employee has been working 24 hours every week, so SSP / holiday pay etc would be calculated on the 24 hours he works.
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you probably know this - but you may not get all your ssp back - its used to be linked to nic contributions but I am sure there were some changes from April this year here is a quick search but as always do your own research, I may be incorrect..
http://elsbyandco.co.uk/employers-will-no-longer-be-able-to-claim-ssp-from-6th-april/#.U9SxHeNdX84
Aye a knew they had changed it, I will speak to ma accountant tomorrow. Like you said, it used to get deducted from your PAYE bill, now a believe it gets deducted from your tax bill, so will take longer to recoup the money :'( and even then am not sure if it's 100% tax deductible.
Well it's worse than a thought, you can't claim back SSP at all now :'( :'( :'(. I have been told by my accountant that this issue is a big bone of contention for small businesses who like myself employ part time workers .
Bet you wish you had a zero hours contract.
I've looked into this and a zero hours contract wouldn't have made any difference because my employee has been working 24 hours every week, so SSP / holiday pay etc would be calculated on the 24 hours he works.
I've never heard that, can you post the link please?
Would it take an average if he had done variable hours?
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Hi PK
as long as they ahve earned not less than lower earnings limit within previous 8 weeks
http://www.cipd.co.uk/binaries/zero-hours-contracts_2013-understanding-the-law.pdf
Its on page 15 - in addition
to being a ‘qualifying employee’, an individual must also
be absent due to incapacity for work for four or more
days in a row and have had average weekly earnings of
not less than the lower earnings limit (currently £109
per week) within the previous eight weeks.
Its of course times like this that a small business may have a difficult choice to make especially if the employee is relatively new - pay them and hope they come back (up to 28 weeks) and are fit and wanting to work, or maybe lay off and have to bring on someone else - every business is different and I think most would find a few weeks worth it, but longer term than that it may prove finanically difficult to justify it -
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you probably know this - but you may not get all your ssp back - its used to be linked to nic contributions but I am sure there were some changes from April this year here is a quick search but as always do your own research, I may be incorrect..
http://elsbyandco.co.uk/employers-will-no-longer-be-able-to-claim-ssp-from-6th-april/#.U9SxHeNdX84
Aye a knew they had changed it, I will speak to ma accountant tomorrow. Like you said, it used to get deducted from your PAYE bill, now a believe it gets deducted from your tax bill, so will take longer to recoup the money :'( and even then am not sure if it's 100% tax deductible.
Well it's worse than a thought, you can't claim back SSP at all now :'( :'( :'(. I have been told by my accountant that this issue is a big bone of contention for small businesses who like myself employ part time workers .
Bet you wish you had a zero hours contract.
I've looked into this and a zero hours contract wouldn't have made any difference because my employee has been working 24 hours every week, so SSP / holiday pay etc would be calculated on the 24 hours he works.
I've never heard that, can you post the link please?
Would it take an average if he had done variable hours?
Aye, that's right it would go on the average. Zero hour contracts are more suited for employing someone where the hours worked are irregular a think? Maybe there's some employers on here who use the zero hour contracts who will have more info on this?
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Hi PK
as long as they ahve earned not less than lower earnings limit within previous 8 weeks
http://www.cipd.co.uk/binaries/zero-hours-contracts_2013-understanding-the-law.pdf
Its on page 15 - in addition
to being a ‘qualifying employee’, an individual must also
be absent due to incapacity for work for four or more
days in a row and have had average weekly earnings of
not less than the lower earnings limit (currently £109
per week) within the previous eight weeks.
Its of course times like this that a small business may have a difficult choice to make especially if the employee is relatively new - pay them and hope they come back (up to 28 weeks) and are fit and wanting to work, or maybe lay off and have to bring on someone else - every business is different and I think most would find a few weeks worth it, but longer term than that it may prove finanically difficult to justify it -
That's the other sting in the tail, you can't pay them off just because they are on SSP, irrespective of how long they have been employed by you. If the employee was unhappy about being paid off they can take you to a tribunal, where you would have to prove the employee would be unfit for work long term, at this stage the tribunal would more than likely side with the employee. I am having to pay SSP for the six weeks he is signed off, 1st week will be free so five weeks, if he is signed off again after the initial 6 weeks, I will have a stronger case as my business is being hampered longer term.
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http://www.payroll-help.com/2010/10/ssp-for-repeated-leisure-injuries/ (http://www.payroll-help.com/2010/10/ssp-for-repeated-leisure-injuries/)
In a decision given on 29 September 2010 in the case Aber Roof Truss Ltd v Revenue & Customs, the First Tier Tax Tribunal ruled that an employee with a long history of absences caused by football injuries is nevertheless entitled to SSP.
In June 2008, Mr. Adams sustained a football injury, a strained knee ligament, and was absent from work for over two weeks. This was the latest in a long history of sickness absences, mainly caused by football injuries. He had previously been warned by his employer that no more SSP would be paid for absences due to football injuries. He was absent for two weeks and the employer refused to pay SSP on the grounds that his incapacity was self-inflicted. He appealed against the employer’s decision.
The Tribunal considered whether Mr. Adams met all of the conditions for SSP, namely that he was unfit for work due to incapacity or illness, that his employment was liable for NICs, and his average earnings exceeded the NICs lower earnings limit. The employer did not dispute that he was unable to work because of illness, only that they viewed the illness as self-inflicted.
As all of the statutory conditions were met, Mr. Adams was entitled to SSP and the employer was liable to make the payment.
]Despite this decision, employers should not hold back from refusing to pay SSP if there are significant doubts over the employee’s entitlement. The worst that can happen is that, following an appeal by the employee against the refusal to pay, an HMRC officer decides that it should be paid, or not, as the case may be[/b. This case is unusual in that the employer continued to refuse to pay, but it is clear that football injuries, however frequently incurred, cannot be viewed as “self-inflicted”. There is no statutory basis for excluding “self-inflicted” injuries
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have you spoken to acas to see actually what your legal obligations are - personally if it was any one of my guys we would do everything we could - but they have been with us over a year and we know they are "good genuine guys" not saying at all that yours are not, but i thought he had not been with you very long at all - you may find that you can legally end employment as he has not built up any legal rights, - I am not saying this is correct, all I am saying is that if you haven't already that you may find a phone call to acas to see all your options, ie do you have an option to legally terminate his contract IF you felt this was the best business decision, if you haven't spoken to them it might be a good thing to do, just so you do know all your choices. Mrs Smudger
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have you spoken to acas to see actually what your legal obligations are - personally if it was any one of my guys we would do everything we could - but they have been with us over a year and we know they are "good genuine guys" not saying at all that yours are not, but i thought he had not been with you very long at all - you may find that you can legally end employment as he has not built up any legal rights, - I am not saying this is correct, all I am saying is that if you haven't already that you may find a phone call to acas to see all your options, ie do you have an option to legally terminate his contract IF you felt this was the best business decision, if you haven't spoken to them it might be a good thing to do, just so you do know all your choices. Mrs Smudger
He has been with me since March, he is a good lad and has not missed a day. The info I got was from Employers Direct via ACAS. Their advice is to pay the SSP for the six week period = 5 payments of £87.50, then if he is signed off work again after this period ( and there is a good chance he will due to the nature of the job ) a tribunal would look at the employers side more favourably at this stage, whereas they would more than likely side with the employee if I acted now.
I will speak to employee tomorrow and give him 2 options
1.Pay off with immediate effect, 24 hours pay, and job kept open for 12 weeks.
2.Take the SSP but if you are not fit for work after 6 weeks, paid off ( I think I will still have to pay the 24 hours) but no job kept open.
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They are good options - hope your meeting goes well - I also think as he has only been with you for such a short period of time you could actually terminate his employment for any reason with a weeks pay - this could be for any reason ie workloads - etc etc - not nice but I am sure if you put this direct scenerio to acas I am 99% sure they would agree you could legally do this with no re-course - however as always check it out - but you would need to ask them DIRECTLY on that particular scenerio and let them know his length of service - if you do not ask outright they will give you the other options. I hope your guy has a quick recovery but his injury sounds bad, and sometimes its better to make the tough decisions earlier rather than later. - Mrs Smudger
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They are good options - hope your meeting goes well - I also think as he has only been with you for such a short period of time you could actually terminate his employment for any reason with a weeks pay - this could be for any reason ie workloads - etc etc - not nice but I am sure if you put this direct scenerio to acas I am 99% sure they would agree you could legally do this with no re-course - however as always check it out - but you would need to ask them DIRECTLY on that particular scenerio and let them know his length of service - if you do not ask outright they will give you the other options. I hope your guy has a quick recovery but his injury sounds bad, and sometimes its better to make the tough decisions earlier rather than later. - Mrs Smudger
The difference here is it would be obvious to any tribunal (and he would be able to take this to tribunal despite only starting in March) that I had paid him off after he had been signed off from work for 6 weeks.
As he has been a good lad in the short time he has been with me I have decided I will pay him the SSP for the 6 week period then we will take it from there.