Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Dave Willis on June 23, 2014, 01:10:29 pm
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(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1403524813_controller.jpg)
This one's doing my head in! Second controller with the same problem. Working away no trouble for hours, sometimes days on end when suddenly the water stops. Leave the valve fully open and stomp back to the van with taurettes syndrone. Get there and the red pressure switch light is on? Turn the power supply off switch it back on - still there :o
Pull the live connector off plug it back in and away we go! Work for a while then water turns off and so on.
I used to think it was a fuse/holder playing up - pull the fuse out, inspect it turn it over put it back in and away we go.
New fuse holder fitted Saturday so it can't be that, new controller so it shouldn't be that, new connectors, new pump, clean filter, re callibrated. Vent clear, water supply open. No sign of air locks. When it's in this mode I can completely disconnect the hose real and the pump won't start up. Is the flow dial too high?
Any ideas before the lump hammer comes out for the last time?
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Flow controllers are useful bits of kit which have been ruined by over complicating them!
Dead end detection was the worst thing ever invented - and is the source of most problems with these units. Whats your e-mail Dave & I'll send you a link on how to DIY one easy with bits off ebay?
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I never use them, too many problems and an unnecessary expense!
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They cut out and run poo when your battery is low or knackared i find.
I wouldnt be without a controller. I used to use just a pump but used far too much water and had to replace pressure switches every other month which did my head in.
I use the simple varistream controllers.
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Really Mick? I've been using mine without a controller for over 8years, and I have only ever once changed a pressure switch!
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Flow controllers are useful bits of kit which have been ruined by over complicating them!
Dead end detection was the worst thing ever invented - and is the source of most problems with these units. Whats your e-mail Dave & I'll send you a link on how to DIY one easy with bits off ebay?
Can you send me the link too, Nathanael?
k.simpkin@yahoo.co.uk
Or you could just stick the link up here.
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Or you could just stick the link up here.
The info is on another forum & I'd get sent to the naughty corner if I post it here! ::)roll
E-mail on the way,..
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It's the hot weather and it's getting to hot, take the front cover off and it will work fine, mine has been doing the same. Disconnecting the power reset it and will work again. Or try to reposition it out of the sunlight.
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I still have a flow controller plugged in to throttle the pump, however for dead end detection I now just use the pressure switch. I've turned the dead end detection up to max on the controller and turned the pressure switch down on the pump. The result is instant water all the time.
Simon.
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I think I might have found the problem. It happened again this afternoon so I started pulling wires apart to try and isolate the fault. The blue wire from the controller (as supplied) seems to have been missed by the guy with the crimpers. Shoved the wire back in and everything fired back up again. There again it could be just powering back up and resetting itself. See what happens tomorrow.
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1403539414_nocrimp.jpg)
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I wouldn't say that electronic flow controllers are a waste of money; they can be useful in certain circumstances. I've never bothered with one myself though as I have a return to tank pipe that can be adjusted. Such controllers are just another thing that can go wrong - but they are helpful in situations where the flow needs to be carefully regulated. I would probably only use one if I had a tank size in a lighter van that meant me needing to use less water. As it is, I'm a single operator with a van payload that just about allows an 800 litre tank. I prefer to work with a higher flow where practical as too low a flow rate can slow me down a bit.
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Exactly! Why would you waste money on a piece of equipment which slows you down?
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Exactly! Why would you waste money on a piece of equipment which slows you down?
This is an argument which just constantly repeats itself on this forum. If you don't understand how controllers work, what they do & the reasons for that- then carry on working in the dark ages!! ::)roll
BOTH the above comments are ridiculous for blatantly obvious reasons!
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Flow controllers are useful bits of kit which have been ruined by over complicating them!
I agree,
I have an original mk1 eco flow controller from Crow-electro ( now known as Spring ). Its just a simple analogue dial with an led and thats all ! simply does all that I wanted it for - contol the speed of the pump. Seems the more advanced something becomes the more there is to go wrong.
Is there a similar product still available from any supplier now ?
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It is unfortunate Dave that your issues would appear to have been caused simply by someone not crimping a cable correctly during the manufacture process, As you can imagine with each control using at least 4 crimps the workshop team are getting through 10,s of 1000,s of crimps. I will bring this to the attention of the production team.
We use the PS message for two things
1. Pump pressure Switch activation
2. Checking the pump is in circuit.
Having eliminated any possible high pressure issue, Next step is to check the cables and connectors.
http://www.springltd.co/node/48
The controller carries out an electrical test to see if the pump is in circuit if the control can not detect the pump We use PS as a default message.
Second.
In answer to the question and comments all the developments from V1 to the current V11 are market driven, Cleaners, system builders and distributors feed back to us what they like and don,t The Low battery cut off over ride feature on the V11 is a direct consequence of this feed back.
Spring are an electronics design and build company over the 10 year cycle with have gained a great deal of insight into what the controls need to do, This insight has quickened greatly through my direct contact with guys on the ground, I spend large amounts of time just listening and provide advise as needed, I am very grateful to all who contribute to this process no matter their point of view.
So are controls a waste of money?
My personal feeling is for a pump delivery system to work as efficiently as possible electronically controlling the pump is the way to go.
Slowing the pump will not massively impact on flow to the brush. This is because of pressure dynamics with in the system. Slowing the pump and controlling the flow is just one aspect of the controller.
What the control will do is get the pump to produce only the water flow required at the brush. It also reduces heat build up in the pump, reduces wear on the pump motor, In turn this means you use less current. A control helps you manage your resource.
Personally I am not convinced running a pump flat out pushing max water and draw max current, putting the whole system under high pressure just to restrict the flow with a manual tap is efficient.
Over Three years I have run all kinds of tests and comparisons with/without a control and in all cases with a control is better.
That said I respect that people have to work in a way that best suits them, It is then our job as a manufacturer to produce what the market wants.
Fair play to Gordon still having a V1 going strong, This shows the resilience of the kit, The V11 Analogue was aimed to fill this slot if people feel it is to complex well maybe we should re visit it.
This may surprise people but I would rather some one had any electronic controller rather than no controller. Having a control even the most basic ones will make your system more efficient.
To my way of thinking a controller is not a waste of money but a valuable asset that adds value to your system. The market provides a very wide range of controls and depending on how much function you want there is something to suit.
This is a link to a number of articles on our web site, They are written with the view that any control is better than no control. http://www.springltd.co/node/3
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I'd highly recommend the sureclean one that Arthur sells. It works flawlessly and never gives problems, ever! I work continually at the highest flow rate setting day in day out and its never so much as burned a fuse!
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Thank you Nat for you comments. It brings up an interesting question
As My earlier post everything we do is based on engineering principles and is market driven. De 1st appeared on the V3, It came about because having controlled the pump speed, We then found that relying simply on the pump pressure switch to stop the pump when flow was turned off lead to.
. High system pressure
. Pump pressure switch under high conductive load
. Hose and connectors under high strain
. PS was burning out + connectors blowing
In some cases as the following comparison show Pressure can get very high http://www.thehub360.com/spring-pressure-comparison.html
Following Calibration DE stops the pump earlier meaning there is less current loaded across the pump PS and motor, Less pressure in the system. Less strain on the connectors.
We then have a Micro DE retest as the control needs to know when flow has been restored, The Control test every 3 seconds. (This is the blip you may here from the pump) while flow is off. While in DE the system is not pressurising at all. It simply sits there waiting.
On restoring flow the most time for the pump to restart is 3 seconds, In reality due to there being some pressure in system it is often much less.
Over three years I have found most DE issues are not caused by the control, Rather it is other factors. In one case It was traced to a jammed non return valve on a reel. Often it is as simple as a blocked pump filter.
The control is designed to provide a range of information to the user, often the control is pointing to a fault rather than being the cause. We work hard to make the control work with a wide range of systems. and conditions yet. The majority of the time you should only need to turn it on and work.
For the times it does not we provide support, repairs and a warranty. Supporting the controls is important and something we work hard at.
You can choose to set Cal High and rely on the pressure switch the control will operate happily, In my opinion its not ideal
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Quote from: Nathanael Jones on Yesterday at 01:19:00 pm
Flow controllers are useful bits of kit which have been ruined by over complicating them!
Dead end detection was the worst thing ever invented - and is the source of most problems with these units. Whats your e-mail Dave & I'll send you a link on how to DIY one easy with bits off ebay?
I too would love the link Nathanael! mal@loughreacleaning.ie
Thanks in anticipation :)
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It is unfortunate Dave that your issues would appear to have been caused simply by someone not crimping a cable correctly during the manufacture process, As you can imagine with each control using at least 4 crimps the workshop team are getting through 10,s of 1000,s of crimps. I will bring this to the attention of the production team.
We use the PS message for two things
1. Pump pressure Switch activation
2. Checking the pump is in circuit.
Having eliminated any possible high pressure issue, Next step is to check the cables and connectors.
http://www.springltd.co/node/48
The controller carries out an electrical test to see if the pump is in circuit if the control can not detect the pump We use PS as a default message.
Second.
In answer to the question and comments all the developments from V1 to the current V11 are market driven, Cleaners, system builders and distributors feed back to us what they like and don,t The Low battery cut off over ride feature on the V11 is a direct consequence of this feed back.
Spring are an electronics design and build company over the 10 year cycle with have gained a great deal of insight into what the controls need to do, This insight has quickened greatly through my direct contact with guys on the ground, I spend large amounts of time just listening and provide advise as needed, I am very grateful to all who contribute to this process no matter their point of view.
So are controls a waste of money?
My personal feeling is for a pump delivery system to work as efficiently as possible electronically controlling the pump is the way to go.
Slowing the pump will not massively impact on flow to the brush. This is because of pressure dynamics with in the system. Slowing the pump and controlling the flow is just one aspect of the controller.
What the control will do is get the pump to produce only the water flow required at the brush. It also reduces heat build up in the pump, reduces wear on the pump motor, In turn this means you use less current. A control helps you manage your resource.
Personally I am not convinced running a pump flat out pushing max water and draw max current, putting the whole system under high pressure just to restrict the flow with a manual tap is efficient.
Over Three years I have run all kinds of tests and comparisons with/without a control and in all cases with a control is better.
That said I respect that people have to work in a way that best suits them, It is then our job as a manufacturer to produce what the market wants.
Fair play to Gordon still having a V1 going strong, This shows the resilience of the kit, The V11 Analogue was aimed to fill this slot if people feel it is to complex well maybe we should re visit it.
This may surprise people but I would rather some one had any electronic controller rather than no controller. Having a control even the most basic ones will make your system more efficient.
To my way of thinking a controller is not a waste of money but a valuable asset that adds value to your system. The market provides a very wide range of controls and depending on how much function you want there is something to suit.
This is a link to a number of articles on our web site, They are written with the view that any control is better than no control. http://www.springltd.co/node/3
Thanks Ian - that makes sense. It's unfortunate that the same light gives two totally different warnings. Often the red light would come on with the valve shut. I automatically assumed the pressure switch was coming into play and would back the dead end down then I'd find the pump would cycle as there wasn't enough pressure. Could be just that the circuit was broken now and again I suppose. I've had no issues today.
I did put the post up after a very hot frustrating day.
I might put one up about how crap hose is - had another hot crummy day yanking that around today! ;D
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Quote from: Nathanael Jones on Yesterday at 01:19:00 pm
Flow controllers are useful bits of kit which have been ruined by over complicating them!
Dead end detection was the worst thing ever invented - and is the source of most problems with these units. Whats your e-mail Dave & I'll send you a link on how to DIY one easy with bits off ebay?
I too would love the link Nathanael! mal@loughreacleaning.ie
Thanks in anticipation :)
You've got mail. :)
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Fair play to Gordon still having a V1 going strong, This shows the resilience of the kit, The V11 Analogue was aimed to fill this slot if people feel it is to complex well maybe we should re visit it.
Ian, please bring back the V1, its brilliant, does exactly what it says on the tin ;D
I think there is still a place in the market for it and I reckon they would be very popular.
I think your latest controllers are probably great too on fitted systems from suppliers but I think from what I read on here most people who have problems with de and calibration etc. are those who have a diy system like myself and our only requirement of a controller is to adjust the speed of the pump. My V1 must be atleast 8 years old or so and never given me a problem.
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Flow controllers are useful bits of kit which have been ruined by over complicating them!
I agree,
I have an original mk1 eco flow controller from Crow-electro ( now known as Spring ). Its just a simple analogue dial with an led and thats all ! simply does all that I wanted it for - contol the speed of the pump. Seems the more advanced something becomes the more there is to go wrong.
Is there a similar product still available from any supplier now ?
Last time I looked on Ionics website (or could have been Pure2o) they had a controller that did this (not in their catalogue though). Think it was £95 plus VAT.
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12v motor controller from ebay £4.99 ive always used this instead of those £60 controllers does the job just fine
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12v motor controller from ebay £4.99 ive always used this instead of those £60 controllers does the job just fine
I've been using one for 3+ years although mine was more expensive than yours.
I think I paid about £6.
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Fair play to Gordon still having a V1 going strong, This shows the resilience of the kit, The V11 Analogue was aimed to fill this slot if people feel it is to complex well maybe we should re visit it.
Ian, please bring back the V1, its brilliant, does exactly what it says on the tin ;D
I think there is still a place in the market for it and I reckon they would be very popular.
I think your latest controllers are probably great too on fitted systems from suppliers but I think from what I read on here most people who have problems with de and calibration etc. are those who have a diy system like myself and our only requirement of a controller is to adjust the speed of the pump. My V1 must be atleast 8 years old or so and never given me a problem.
The reason for what you read on here is for two reasons- incorrect fitting or components (wire grade, connectors etc) & users not understanding how the controller works- thus DE cuts in & they don't understand why or what affects system pressures & the resulting effect on the controller. I reckon in 99% of cases the controller is not at fault!!
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Hi Dave fair point regard the duel purpose of the ps message. All comments good or not are valid and help us understand better what information is needed. Not surprised you were frustrated.
Gordon thank you for your comments i will pass this on.
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12v motor controller from ebay £4.99 ive always used this instead of those £60 controllers does the job just fine
I've been using one for 3+ years although mine was more expensive than yours.
I think I paid about £6.
lol you must have the superior model!!
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One of our controllers just went 'kaput' and the other went 'kaput' when I connected the battery terminal up the wrong way one early morning.
I thought then, stuff 'em, and haven't used one since.
I might knock up the DIY one; some accounts it would be useful to use a reduced flow rate on (real leaded windows for example), but we just work full flow, quickly, and we never have controller or battery problems these days.
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12v motor controller from ebay £4.99 ive always used this instead of those £60 controllers does the job just fine
I've been using one for 3+ years although mine was more expensive than yours.
I think I paid about £6.
lol you must have the superior model!!
Yup. I don't just buy any old stuff. One must always be one step above the riff raff. ;D
Mine has a white line on the dial.
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Fair play to Gordon still having a V1 going strong, This shows the resilience of the kit, The V11 Analogue was aimed to fill this slot if people feel it is to complex well maybe we should re visit it.
Ian, please bring back the V1, its brilliant, does exactly what it says on the tin ;D
I think there is still a place in the market for it and I reckon they would be very popular.
I think your latest controllers are probably great too on fitted systems from suppliers but I think from what I read on here most people who have problems with de and calibration etc. are those who have a diy system like myself and our only requirement of a controller is to adjust the speed of the pump. My V1 must be atleast 8 years old or so and never given me a problem.
The reason for what you read on here is for two reasons- incorrect fitting or components (wire grade, connectors etc) & users not understanding how the controller works- thus DE cuts in & they don't understand why or what affects system pressures & the resulting effect on the controller. I reckon in 99% of cases the controller is not at fault!!
probably right and would probably include myself as one of those people ! ;D
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Exactly! Why would you waste money on a piece of equipment which slows you down?
This is an argument which just constantly repeats itself on this forum. If you don't understand how controllers work, what they do & the reasons for that- then carry on working in the dark ages!! ::)roll
BOTH the above comments are ridiculous for blatantly obvious reasons!
And the blatantly obvious reasons are?
It's a funny thing how some people present opinion as fact.
There are many different ways of working. I know my preferences but have no problem with other people working to theirs. The biggest problem seems to be when someone says that their way is the only right and true way and every other way is wrong.
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Exactly! Why would you waste money on a piece of equipment which slows you down?
This is an argument which just constantly repeats itself on this forum. If you don't understand how controllers work, what they do & the reasons for that- then carry on working in the dark ages!! ::)roll
BOTH the above comments are ridiculous for blatantly obvious reasons!
And the blatantly obvious reasons are?
It's a funny thing how some people present opinion as fact.
There are many different ways of working. I know my preferences but have no problem with other people working to theirs. The biggest problem seems to be when someone says that their way is the only right and true way and every other way is wrong.
The bit highlighted in red should give you a clue
I wouldn't say that electronic flow controllers are a waste of money; they can be useful in certain circumstances. I've never bothered with one myself though as I have a return to tank pipe that can be adjusted. Such controllers are just another thing that can go wrong - but they are helpful in situations where the flow needs to be carefully regulated. I would probably only use one if I had a tank size in a lighter van that meant me needing to use less water. As it is, I'm a single operator with a van payload that just about allows an 800 litre tank. I prefer to work with a higher flow where practical as too low a flow rate can slow me down a bit.
Then, if you care to explain how a controller- which can run your pump at it's maximum capacity can possibly slow you down?
I'd say these are pretty safe as facts wouldn't you Davie boy? ;D
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I wrote that I've never bothered with one myself. However, it is the case that I used one for a short while - though it was fitted to someone else's system.
I suppose the other thing is that if someone were to use a flow controller to run the pump at full tilt, then there wouldn't be much point bothering with it in the first place.
I'm not anti-flow controller. I have just never seen the need because I have a tank that is larger than my needs for a days work.
There seems to be a lot of this rubbishing the way other people do things on here - generally. It's a great pity that there is some useful stuff on here too otherwise I wouldn't bother with it.
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One of our controllers just went 'kaput' and the other went 'kaput' when I connected the battery terminal up the wrong way one early morning.
I thought then, stuff 'em, and haven't used one since.
I might knock up the DIY one; some accounts it would be useful to use a reduced flow rate on (real leaded windows for example), but we just work full flow, quickly, and we never have controller or battery problems these days.
If you do fit one Tosh it's worthwhile fitting an inline fuse between battery and controller, so that if you connect the battery terminals up wrong the only thing to go pop will be the fuse.
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One of our controllers just went 'kaput' and the other went 'kaput' when I connected the battery terminal up the wrong way one early morning.
I thought then, stuff 'em, and haven't used one since.
I might knock up the DIY one; some accounts it would be useful to use a reduced flow rate on (real leaded windows for example), but we just work full flow, quickly, and we never have controller or battery problems these days.
If you do fit one Tosh it's worthwhile fitting an inline fuse between battery and controller, so that if you connect the battery terminals up wrong the only thing to go pop will be the fuse.
I would agree fitting the correct rated fuse will protect the control in a reverse polarity situation.As andy says in the case of a miss wire the fuse blows and protects the control. Our units do have additional reverse polarity protection in a RP diode and over current protection.
We engineer in a number of protection features that are designed to make the control last. Plus if they do go bang in the majority of cases they are repairable.
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If you do fit one Tosh it's worthwhile fitting an inline fuse between battery and controller, so that if you connect the battery terminals up wrong the only thing to go pop will be the fuse.
Both of my past controller had in-line fuses, yet the controller still went 'pop' when I got the polarity around the wrong way.
:'(
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I wrote that I've never bothered with one myself. However, it is the case that I used one for a short while - though it was fitted to someone else's system.
I suppose the other thing is that if someone were to use a flow controller to run the pump at full tilt, then there wouldn't be much point bothering with it in the first place.
I'm not anti-flow controller. I have just never seen the need because I have a tank that is larger than my needs for a days work.
There seems to be a lot of this rubbishing the way other people do things on here - generally. It's a great pity that there is some useful stuff on here too otherwise I wouldn't bother with it.
I spent 4 years working like you, with a bypass valve & over 6 years with a controller. I wouldn't work without a controller again. However, in those first 4 years, I too didn't want a controller as I was fine the way I was- until I got one then wondered how I'd ever managed before without it!! ;)
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It's definitely user error that causes problems. I've got a couple of V9 controllers that are 4 years old that have never missed a beat. They are a must for anyone with 2 operators so as not to run out of water.
I can see why a one man band may not require a controller if he can carry enough water to last the day.
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If you do fit one Tosh it's worthwhile fitting an inline fuse between battery and controller, so that if you connect the battery terminals up wrong the only thing to go pop will be the fuse.
Both of my past controller had in-line fuses, yet the controller still went 'pop' when I got the polarity around the wrong way.
:'(
Can i ask what rating the fuses were? Also which controls did you have and how old were they were.
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If you do fit one Tosh it's worthwhile fitting an inline fuse between battery and controller, so that if you connect the battery terminals up wrong the only thing to go pop will be the fuse.
Both of my past controller had in-line fuses, yet the controller still went 'pop' when I got the polarity around the wrong way.
:'(
Can i ask what rating the fuses were? Also which controls did you have and how old were they were.
I can't remember the rating of the fuses, but I'm sure they came with the controllers. One controller was from Cleaning Warehouse - an orange thing that doubled as a split charge relay. The other was from Window Cleaning Warehouse - a standard variflow I think it was.
They were about a year old when they 'went'.
I'm probably not much help.
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Thanks for the info Tosh the charging control Would have had two 10amp fuses supplied one for each battery.
Assuming The other was a variflo and not varistream it would have had a 7.5amp fuse supplied to go in the positive feed. Im guessing they were v9 which we built up to october 2013 when the v11 came out.
As I understand Varistream is also supplied with a 7.5 amp fuse. As its not one we build i do not know what additional protection it would have beyond the fuse.
Always interested in feedback that helps us understand the circumstances behind a control stopping. The V11 has a number of layers of protection against miss wire
Dependant on the battery charge state and AH rating. The control can get quite a wallop when polarity is reversed. All DC devices are polarity sensitive so correct fusing is important.
We recommend a fuse should be fitted as close as possible to the battery to give best protection.
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You guys that use a controller from ebay have you got a link please?
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/200975860763?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
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Thanks our Ross ;D