Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Dave Willis on May 26, 2014, 09:10:41 pm
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Is there any point in using vouchers etc to reduce the cost of your fuel for your business or are you better off paying full price or even the highest price for your end of year tax return?
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Is that a serious question?
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Of course. All my questions are serious.
We get a fuel saving by shopping in Tesco. I normally take the saving when I fill the van (quite a large saving on a full tank). It occurred to me that it just might be better saving the cost on the family car rather than the van because of the tax benefits. See?
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That's a slightly different question than the OP in which you asked if it was worth taking the fuel discount at all.
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You can use fuel cards. Search UKFUELS. You can save around 5ppl. You have to watch what you are doing though as every fuelcard company I have used so far have been charlatans, you need to keep on top of them.
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You save sweet fanny adams with fuel cards!
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I have this situation with Nectar points at Sainsbury's. I pay the full cost of the fuel and use the Nectar points against my shopping bill. Quite simply, the fuel (well most of it) is tax deductible and the shopping isn't.
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I have this situation with Nectar points at Sainsbury's. I pay the full cost of the fuel and use the Nectar points against my shopping bill. Quite simply, the fuel (well most of it) is tax deductible and the shopping isn't.
By Jove, you've got it.
We save our nectar points.
Spend 'em once a year or so.
Last year, bought the boy a play/treehouse thing. Over £300 quids worth.
Getting a few bits and bobs won't be memorable but a big thing (like the playhouse) seems like a better freebie.
(If you can afford to, obviously)
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My Nectar points pay for at least one of my flights to london each year to watch the Hammers play.....
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Hi, I pay all my business fuel with my 123 personal credit card then take the cash out the business account and clear it once a month then I pocket the discount from the card it all adds up over the year depends on how much fuel you use.
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You save sweet fanny adams with fuel cards!
No. I save 5ppl with fuel cards.
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Swings and roundabouts IMO i would rather not be putting crappy cheap fuel in my truck so i am prepared to pay a higher price , The savings over the year putting supermarket fuel in are not massive so why risk damage to your engine with cheap fuel . Mike
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Tesco we do as we cash in our points and get 20p off a litre good savings if say old chap lol !!!!
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So, save 20p a litre every time you fill the van or not?
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My Nectar points pay for at least one of my flights to london each year to watch the Hammers play.....
A fool and his nectar points are easily parted! :)
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Your 5p saving on supermarket cooking oil is a false economy! I bet you also get an annual charge for the card? Although that's rarely mentioned! Your saving nought , you only think you are!
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Dave cause we do shopping there and fill our vans up there you earn so many points which we do a fair boy of money there so yes we get 20p off every time we fill up thru the month. Think this deal will only last until Sept then may be 5p a litre
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Your 5p saving on supermarket cooking oil is a false economy! I bet you also get an annual charge for the card? Although that's rarely mentioned! Your saving nought , you only think you are!
Very certain of that are you? No annual charge. 5ppl saved.
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I am soupy! Fuel cards are a nonsense mate......
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A mechanic told me fuel is getting made that cheap now its a lot worse for engines (diesel) he also said now and again when i fill up with diesel to add 1 cap full of engine oil to keep everything lubricated, does this sound right ?
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I am soupy! Fuel cards are a nonsense mate......
It's great to see such knowledge and certainty on the forum.
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I am soupy! Fuel cards are a nonsense mate......
I have been using fuel cards for some time. It saves me 5ppl.
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Well knock yourself out then soupy.... ::)roll
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Will do.
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A mechanic told me fuel is getting made that cheap now its a lot worse for engines (diesel) he also said now and again when i fill up with diesel to add 1 cap full of engine oil to keep everything lubricated, does this sound right ?
If in doubt, don't, and you are in doubt.
This debate has been dragging on for years, some preferring to add non synthetic 2 stroke oil. With the old normally aspirated diesel engines you could run it on 'anything' and get away with it
But the 'new' common rail turbo diesels are different. I would be very concerned about adding anything to the tank. Additives can destroy catalytic convertors and cause all sorts of havoc with DPF filters. Whilst neither of these polution systems are tested at MOT, any issues with the DPF filter will set the warning light on and this is an MOT failure on a diesel.
My brother in law insisted on putting an additive into the tank of his 157 Alfa JTD and had no end of DPF filter problems. He learnt how to remove it and wash it out. At first he refused to listen and when he finally stopped the additive - no more dpf filter issues.
The problem with his Alfa was that when the DPF warning light came on, the ecu went into limp home mode.
My advice would be to use an decent fuel, Shell, PB, Esso and forget the cheap supermarket fuels. The latest Citroen Picasso Hdi has a fuel quality sensor and numerous owners complain that using Morrision's diesel activates the warning light. Filling up with a better quality fuel extingushes the light. The light doesn't come on using Asda diesel by the way.
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Excellent post Spruce. Couldnt agree more....... ;)
I was told (Pinch of salt) that supermarket fuels are fuels that sometimes have been confiscated by customs, then cleaned and sold to the likes of Sainsburys & Tesco. ???
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Thanks spruce i was unsure it was true so would never try it until i was 100%
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Thanks spruce i was unsure it was true so would never try it until i was 100%
a customers who's house i clean worked for some fuel testing company years ago and reckons that the supermarket fuel is the worst thing you can put in your car/van especially diesel, if you use supermarket fuel he reckons you should do 50-50 with the top end diesel (the one with additives) or alternate with a full tank of supermarket stuff then next time use the premium stuff.
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Aye I've heard similar p1w1.....
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RAC man told me the same only last week.
DPF light on in my Audi.
One bottle of DPF cleaner and a full tank of BP's 'ultimate' diesel.
Light's off.
I never thought it made a difference but its definitely quicker now too.
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Ahhh, the old DPF- a flawed technology from the very off!! ::)roll
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This has been happening for years cars running lumpy on supermarket fuel etc. I only put the stuff in unless i really have to.
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Ahhh, the old DPF- a flawed technology from the very off!! ::)roll
Trouble is the manufacturers are fitting these DPF's to meet the Euro emission standards, so we as buyers just have to grudgingly accept it.
More stuff do go wrong further down the line, and expensive if it needs to be replaced. ::)roll
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I don't even think about the type of diesel I use. Td5s don't care.
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Ahhh, the old DPF- a flawed technology from the very off!! ::)roll
Certainly it didn't get off the ground too well to start off with. TBF the manufacturers have got a bit better with the software program to activate it so there aren't as many problems with it as there was to begin with.
My van hasn't a DPF filter, but if I had, I could imagine I would be one of the ones with problems due to the low mileage I do.
The other issue with DPF filters is how the engine manufacturer decides they is going to create the burn to clear the filter when its needed.
VW have chosen the more expensive route of adding a diesel injector at the entrance to the DPF filter. When it is hot enough the ecu directs a spray of diesel into the DPF filter causing it to ignite and burn off the soot like a jet engine.
Most of the other manufacturers chose the cheaper route of directing the ecu to spray another squirt of diesel from the main injectors on the exhaust stroke sending raw diesel into the exhaust pipe. If the process starts and doesn't complete, the owner will find the unburnt diesel will sit in the cylinders, leak past the rings and contaminate the oil. The other issue is that the DPF filter is after the catalytic convertor so neat diesel going through that won't do it any good either.
Why they didn't just add another tank for Ad-Blue is beyond me. They could have added a couple of sensors - no Ad-blue in the tank and the car/van goes into limp home mode until it is filled up and another sensor to ensure that it is Ad-blue that added to the tank - sorted.
Over the years we have used both Supermarket and top brand fuels in both of the vans. We have noted that the fuel consumption is higher with cheap fuels and in most cases doesn't justify the cost per litre of saving. As I have said many times that I know what fuel is in the van when driving up Saltburn Bank with 1/2 a tank of water on board.
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I've wondered about this AdBlue.
Can someone (Spruce or Andy I'd imagine ;D) explain it please?
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My van has run on nothing but supermarket fuel from new, as does the wifes car. Had my van for 6 1/2 years, her car for four. Both run fine,no issues.
How many hundreds of thousands get supermarket fuel every day, and how many issues are amongst these?
Just my opinion though...
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Yep, so a car with a DPF uses more fuel to burn off the particles. Not only that but the driver has no control over when the car will perform an active regeneration- meaning it usually happens at the most inconvenient of times!! ::)roll
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I've wondered about this AdBlue.
Can someone (Spruce or Andy I'd imagine ;D) explain it please?
The best explaination is this one;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AdBlue
A lot of the lorries up and down the motorway are successfully using this simple, cost effective technology to get their emissions right, so why the smaller vehicles don't use this same system is beyond me.
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My van has run on nothing but supermarket fuel from new, as does the wifes car. Had my van for 6 1/2 years, her car for four. Both run fine,no issues.
How many hundreds of thousands get supermarket fuel every day, and how many issues are anumptyst these?
Just my opinion though...
.. and I'm sure there won't be an issue. I usually alternate between Asda and Shell.
The important thing is to have a fuel free from contamination, so its important to always make sure your diesel fuel filter is changed regularily, usually with every service, no matter what fuel you choose.
The Hdi engine that is now the joint venture with PSA and Ford have to be built (detuned) to allow for a poorer quality of fuel than what we get in Europe. Some of the fuels that they get in Central Africa, India and South America are nowhere near the quality we get, often being mixed with other stuff to reduce that country's oil cost. (Ethanol in petrol is a good example.)
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My van has run on nothing but supermarket fuel from new, as does the wifes car. Had my van for 6 1/2 years, her car for four. Both run fine,no issues.
How many hundreds of thousands get supermarket fuel every day, and how many issues are anumptyst these?
Just my opinion though...
.. and I'm sure there won't be an issue. I usually alternate between Asda and Shell.
The important thing is to have a fuel free from contamination, so its important to always make sure your diesel fuel filter is changed regularily, usually with every service, no matter what fuel you choose.
The Hdi engine that is now the joint venture with PSA and Ford have to be built (detuned) to allow for a poorer quality of fuel than what we get in Europe. Some of the fuels that they get in Central Africa, India and South America are nowhere near the quality we get, often being mixed with other stuff to reduce that country's oil cost. (Ethanol in petrol is a good example.)
Apparently this is why ECU remaps are so popular, to reinstate the engine characteristics to what they should have always been- in this country with good fuel quality?
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I've wondered about this AdBlue.
Can someone (Spruce or Andy I'd imagine ;D) explain it please?
The best explaination is this one;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AdBlue
A lot of the lorries up and down the motorway are successfully using this simple, cost effective technology to get their emissions right, so why the smaller vehicles don't use this same system is beyond me.
Cheers Spruce.
So, can I add a drop to my diesel tank to do the same job?
Does it just lower emissions or will it help clean the engine or whatever?
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My van has run on nothing but supermarket fuel from new, as does the wifes car. Had my van for 6 1/2 years, her car for four. Both run fine,no issues.
How many hundreds of thousands get supermarket fuel every day, and how many issues are anumptyst these?
Just my opinion though...
.. and I'm sure there won't be an issue. I usually alternate between Asda and Shell.
The important thing is to have a fuel free from contamination, so its important to always make sure your diesel fuel filter is changed regularily, usually with every service, no matter what fuel you choose.
The Hdi engine that is now the joint venture with PSA and Ford have to be built (detuned) to allow for a poorer quality of fuel than what we get in Europe. Some of the fuels that they get in Central Africa, India and South America are nowhere near the quality we get, often being mixed with other stuff to reduce that country's oil cost. (Ethanol in petrol is a good example.)
Apparently this is why ECU remaps are so popular, to reinstate the engine characteristics to what they should have always been- in this country with good fuel quality?
In a nutshell - yes!
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I've wondered about this AdBlue.
Can someone (Spruce or Andy I'd imagine ;D) explain it please?
The best explaination is this one;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AdBlue
A lot of the lorries up and down the motorway are successfully using this simple, cost effective technology to get their emissions right, so why the smaller vehicles don't use this same system is beyond me.
Cheers Spruce.
So, can I add a drop to my diesel tank to do the same job?
Does it just lower emissions or will it help clean the engine or whatever?
No you can not. It can only be used in an engine that has been designed for it's use.
Ad Blue requires a separate tank and system to spray this mixture into the exhaust gas after it has left the engine. The heat from the exhaust reacts with the harmful gasses caused during combustion to turn them into nitrogen and water, both harmless to the atmosphere. The engine itself can be tuned to run on 'lean burn' which uses all the fuel leaving no soot. But running a diesel in this mode increases harmful gasses, so this is where the AdBlue comes in.
This is a system example;
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Night-Heater-Fuel-Tank-Webasto-Fuel-Pump-Ad-Blue-Tank-Scr-Treatment-/251520085844?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_BoatEquipment_Accessories_SM&hash=item3a8fc3ef54#ht_291wt_1399
but it has to be linked into the ecu as the amount of Adblue sprayed into the exhaust needs to be in proportion to the amount of diesel being used at the time. If your diesel car is doing 40 MPG then you will use around a gallon of AdBlue every 1500 to 2000 miles. The idea is that everytime you fill up with diesel you top up the AdBlue tank from your 5 litre container you carry in the boot of the car.
IMHO the manufacturers of diesel engines are being forced to progressively clean up diesel exhaust fumes with EU directives, so they are leaving a bit of technology on the proverbial table for the next round of emission cuts.
The other issue is a car buyers perception of the new vehicle they are buying or considering buying. Will they want to raise the bonnet of their car and top up the AdBlue tank at the same time they are refueling? The manufacturers would expect a long distance lorry driver to do that, but how often do you see a motorist checking the oil in the engine on a forecourt these days?
The first dpf filters were fitted to the Citroen C5 with the 2.2 hdi engine followed by Peugeot, Fiat and Ford. BMW and Mercedes also climbed on the dpf bandwagon. The main dealers charged a fortune to replenish the fluid and reset the ecu to say the service had been done. So it was a very lucurative job when a car came into the workshop. It took a while before outside dealers learnt/developed the skill to sort these filters out themselves. Once they got the hang of it and the equipment to get into the engine management system, costs to service these units fell with competition.
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Thanks Spruce.
Very comprehensive, as ever.
They are dirty gits.
I get the AdBlue 'neutralising' the fumes.
But just a regular DPF, saves up the soot then poofs it out every now & then rather than slowly but all the time.
What a crock.
Lesson learned (t?) for me though, no more Sainsbury's diesel going in my car!
Van-I'm undecided yet.
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I am soupy! Fuel cards are a nonsense mate......
I have been using fuel cards for some time. It saves me 5ppl.
let the haters get on with it mate , most on here never see real miles , or even buy a new van more then once in there life yet know it all ........
when we were running our fleet in at dhl n city link we saved a massive amount on fuel with fuel cards , our 4 weekly bill was always the wrong side or 6k :o
but you have to have two cards and on a Monday morning my job was to find out which card we were using that week we still have them now even those were down to 4 vans
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Idk if this is all In ya head as my mates says.
but always used shell v power deisel in my car, and my car runs better then it did when I first got it.
Once put tesco fuel in and I know my car didnt like ran somewhat slower.
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I put shell v power in the car las ill up.
A bit skewed as she's done more A road driving than normal this week but we usually get around 400 miles to a tank and tonight i drove it and it's projecting 505 miles.
Yup, definitely the last time i'll be mixing audi & sainsbury's. Still take the van though.
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Thanks Spruce.
Very comprehensive, as ever.
They are dirty gits.
I get the AdBlue 'neutralising' the fumes.
But just a regular DPF, saves up the soot then poofs it out every now & then rather than slowly but all the time.
What a crock.
Lesson learned (t?) for me though, no more Sainsbury's diesel going in my car!
Van-I'm undecided yet.
It's not quite that way in practice. ;D
The dpf filter traps the soot particles that would normally be exhausted into the atmosphere and the air we breath. Just look at the inside of your tailpipe and see how sooty it is. The dpf filter acts as a trap and stops these particles. When the trap becomes full of soot the idea is to set fire to it at a very high burn temperature, thus turning the soot to ash, which isn't as harmful to the environment (well until another study is done.)
To comment on your last post - I have found repeatedly that I will average around 28 MPG with Shell and around 22 MPG with supermarket fuel. These figures have come from 4 years of records and this is the trend. My son has found the same with his Peugeot Partner Hdi van.
We have a Morrisons & Tesco garage about 6 miles from us. For us the only time we fill up there is if it's convenient. Price wise they have little competition so price their fuel within a few pence of Shell and Esso. From time to time a £40.00 spend in the supermarket will qualify for a 12 pence per litre saving on diesel which saved me £9 on a full tank, so I will take advantage of that. Otherwise, it works out cheaper for me to run the van on Shell or Esso as the increased fuel economy more than compensates for the slightly higher purchase price.
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Apparently the supermarket & brand fuel is the same stuff, only difference is additives.
Try some diesel additive, you'll see instant MPG increase- however, the cost of the additive outweighs the benefit in MPG. That's all "superfuel" is, normal fuel with additive. ;)
Wynnes DPF cleaner gives a very good MPG increase & slight increased response too- pretty pointless though.
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Apparently the supermarket & brand fuel is the same stuff, only difference is additives.
Try some diesel additive, you'll see instant MPG increase- however, the cost of the additive outweighs the benefit in MPG. That's all "superfuel" is, normal fuel with additive. ;)
Wynnes DPF cleaner gives a very good MPG increase & slight increased response too- pretty pointless though.
this was a comment attached to an 'Honest John' topic regarding the difference between supermarket and branded fuels a few years ago;
"Use Shell.
Much higher cetane rating which means the fuel ignites easier. When a fuel is essentially more flamible it burns more completely. As oppossed to a supermarket fuel which has no/low amounts of cetane booster (2-EthylHexylNitrate) which has a lower cetane rating, UK spec 51.
When our diesel cars re-circulate exhaust gasses, NOX, this burns cooler in the combustion chamber and the fuel burn's incompletely, forming carbon, soot.
A higher cetane fuel like Shell fuelsave or bp ultimate has a centane of around 56/57. More fuel is therefore ignited at any air/nox mix and leaves less soot.
I'm sure you are aware, carbon in the internals will eventually lead to component failure, the first stop, DPF"
So where does red diesel fit into this picture? Is it the same fuel with additives (colourant) that makes the diesel burn with so much soot. Why do Webasto heaters love a clean burning (branded) road diesel as opposed to red diesel which soots up the internals and creates premature internal component failure?
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Apparently the supermarket & brand fuel is the same stuff, only difference is additives.
Try some diesel additive, you'll see instant MPG increase- however, the cost of the additive outweighs the benefit in MPG. That's all "superfuel" is, normal fuel with additive. ;)
Wynnes DPF cleaner gives a very good MPG increase & slight increased response too- pretty pointless though.
this was a comment attached to an 'Honest John' topic regarding the difference between supermarket and branded fuels a few years ago;
"Use Shell.
Much higher cetane rating which means the fuel ignites easier. When a fuel is essentially more flamible it burns more completely. As oppossed to a supermarket fuel which has no/low amounts of cetane booster (2-EthylHexylNitrate) which has a lower cetane rating, UK spec 51.
When our diesel cars re-circulate exhaust gasses, NOX, this burns cooler in the combustion chamber and the fuel burn's incompletely, forming carbon, soot.
A higher cetane fuel like Shell fuelsave or bp ultimate has a centane of around 56/57. More fuel is therefore ignited at any air/nox mix and leaves less soot.
I'm sure you are aware, carbon in the internals will eventually lead to component failure, the first stop, DPF"
So where does red diesel fit into this picture? Is it the same fuel with additives (colourant) that makes the diesel burn with so much soot. Why do Webasto heaters love a clean burning (branded) road diesel as opposed to red diesel which soots up the internals and creates premature internal component failure?
Yep, these additives boost cetane giving a more economical burn thus improved MPG. Add the cost of the additive though & the extra MPG is meaningless. However, it be overall a better solution for the engine.
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I am soupy! Fuel cards are a nonsense mate......
I have been using fuel cards for some time. It saves me 5ppl.
let the haters get on with it mate , most on here never see real miles , or even buy a new van more then once in there life yet know it all ........
when we were running our fleet in at dhl n city link we saved a massive amount on fuel with fuel cards , our 4 weekly bill was always the wrong side or 6k :o
but you have to have two cards and on a Monday morning my job was to find out which card we were using that week we still have them now even those were down to 4 vans
Oh ain't I the special one! Its all in your big empty heads! Supermarket fuel is always the cheapest for a reason! I'd never put it in any of my six vans! Oh how big am I, six vans and all ! ;D
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I pay no attention to where I buy my fuel, accepting as to whether it takes the fuel card or not. I get an email on Friday saying: fuel next week will be xx pence per litre. I use many different petrol stations, some supermarket, some shell. I see no difference in mpg from either. It may well be different but it I get around 20mpg full of water and 28mpg empty. That is fairly consistent with either supermarket or shell.
I save 5ppl compared to the price at our local Morrisons, it's usually more than 5ppl if I fill up at shell but it's further away so I only use it when passing. I won't be going out of my way for "better" diesel. If there is any difference between the fuels it makes a negligible difference to td5 engines.
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I pay no attention to where I buy my fuel, accepting as to whether it takes the fuel card or not. I get an email on Friday saying: fuel next week will be xx pence per litre. I use many different petrol stations, some supermarket, some shell. I see no difference in mpg from either. It may well be different but it I get around 20mpg full of water and 28mpg empty. That is fairly consistent with either supermarket or shell.
I save 5ppl compared to the price at our local Morrisons, it's usually more than 5ppl if I fill up at shell but it's further away so I only use it when passing. I won't be going out of my way for "better" diesel. If there is any difference between the fuels it makes a negligible difference to td5 engines.
That's 'cause a TD5 would run on Gin Soupy.
I hear good things about them.
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"interestingly" if I get fuel from Tesco it costs me 1ppl MORE than if I get it elsewhere, including shell. According to the people that issues the card Tesco surcharge 1ppl to get you to use their card instead.
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Oh ain't I the special one! Its all in your big empty heads! Supermarket fuel is always the cheapest for a reason! I'd never put it in any of my six vans! Oh how big am I, six vans and all ! ;D
With 6 vans on the road fuel cards are something you should maybe reconsider, handled in the correct manner you can save yourself quite a bit of cash. I have used many over the past couple of years. Some are just supermarkets, some are branded to distributers, some manufacturers. Everyone I have used have been charlatans, but, if you keep on top of them i.e. check every invoice and regularly compare the prices they offer you can save around 5ppl. No matter where you buy your fuel.
The first one I used tried to charge me £12 per card per year. I told them no, and that was the end of that. Others have charged more than they claimed. If they start to muck you about just change cards. I am happy with the one I'm using at the moment but I have another set of cards ready and waiting.
Although money saving is my main priority there are other benefits too. Weekly invoices are much easier to account than 1/2 a dozen receipts every few days. Most cards also have on line analysers that you can use to see exactly which van/driver uses most fuel, differences (if any) in mpg from one station to the next and besides you get 30 days credit. Good for cash flow, not that window cleaning has cash flow issues.
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I pay no attention to where I buy my fuel, accepting as to whether it takes the fuel card or not. I get an email on Friday saying: fuel next week will be xx pence per litre. I use many different petrol stations, some supermarket, some shell. I see no difference in mpg from either. It may well be different but it I get around 20mpg full of water and 28mpg empty. That is fairly consistent with either supermarket or shell.
I save 5ppl compared to the price at our local Morrisons, it's usually more than 5ppl if I fill up at shell but it's further away so I only use it when passing. I won't be going out of my way for "better" diesel. If there is any difference between the fuels it makes a negligible difference to td5 engines.
That's 'cause a TD5 would run on Gin Soupy.
I hear good things about them.
Never tried gin. How much is it per litre?