Clean It Up

UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: edward1 on May 15, 2014, 06:33:48 pm

Title: employing or self employed
Post by: edward1 on May 15, 2014, 06:33:48 pm
 I wondered if any of you guys have people working for you on a self employed basis.

one of my colleagues does this .but I didn't think you could.

Obviously that would make life easier .

 I sub work out at the moment and employ  1 guy on the books .But what with holiday pay and employers ni  14 % I think it is ,its quite a cost .making people self employed would end that .
Title: Re: employing or self employed
Post by: dave0123 on May 15, 2014, 08:57:16 pm
You cant do this legally.


Your best option would let him get his own equipment and become self employed and have his own work but subs of you few days a week.. that would be legal
Title: Re: employing or self employed
Post by: Window Lickers on May 15, 2014, 09:31:36 pm
He can 'hire' equipment from you.
Title: Re: employing or self employed
Post by: koopmaster on May 16, 2014, 07:58:46 am
so can you sub to someone and hire your equipment out for a £1 a week.  would that be legal?
Title: Re: employing or self employed
Post by: Window Lickers on May 16, 2014, 08:07:36 am
Yes. I know of another window cleaner who charges his subby £1.50 an hour for the hire of the equipment he uses.
Title: Re: employing or self employed
Post by: Window Lickers on May 16, 2014, 08:09:11 am
so can you sub to someone and hire your equipment out for a £1 a week.  would that be legal?

You'll have to make it look better than £1.00 a week though. Offer him an improved rate of pay but also implement a 'hire' charge. That way it looks good for your accountant. Win win.
Title: Re: employing or self employed
Post by: Total shine cleaning services on May 16, 2014, 05:39:46 pm
Hmrcs definition of self employed is own van/ tools, more than one customer and be in charge of your own scheduling, there are a fair few who still do the self employed thing, but it is technically tax evasion

Graham
Title: Re: employing or self employed
Post by: alfie11 on May 16, 2014, 06:29:05 pm
In the uk there is no legal definition of self employd
Title: Re: employing or self employed
Post by: ♠Winp®oClean♠ on May 16, 2014, 07:07:37 pm
One of my customers owns a well established & highly regarded roofing business. All the people who work for him are self employed. I don't know the ins & outs of it but he used to employ & now says he wont have it any other way!
Title: Re: employing or self employed
Post by: HampshireWindowCleaning on May 16, 2014, 07:12:49 pm
This whole 'window cleaning franchise' thing is basically subbing out your work to self employed people and they pay you a cut of the money, without having to worry about tax and ni, holiday pay etc.
Title: Re: employing or self employed
Post by: Soupy on May 16, 2014, 08:09:47 pm
I'll say to you what I say to everyone who asks about tax matters on here.

Speak to an accountant.

That is all.
Title: Re: employing or self employed
Post by: edward1 on May 17, 2014, 04:16:53 pm
soupy ,accountants opinions vary as well.some  are cautious and some are not as cautious.
Title: Re: employing or self employed
Post by: Soupy on May 17, 2014, 04:25:48 pm
Better to take advice from a qualified professional than from a window cleaning forum.
Title: Re: employing or self employed
Post by: edward1 on May 17, 2014, 04:29:17 pm
 ::)roll
Title: Re: employing or self employed
Post by: CleanClear on May 17, 2014, 05:44:20 pm
I'll say to you what I say to everyone who asks about tax matters on here.

Speak to an accountant.

That is all.

Easier to go direct to the tax man  ;D

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/calcs/esi.htm

HR people deal with employment. Accountants are for figures. Taxman does it all  ;D
Title: Re: employing or self employed
Post by: PoleKing on May 17, 2014, 06:22:39 pm
I'll say to you what I say to everyone who asks about tax matters on here.

Speak to an accountant.

That is all.

Easier to go direct to the tax man  ;D

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/calcs/esi.htm

HR people deal with employment. Accountants are for figures. Taxman does it all  ;D

The taxtw@ is very difficult to pin down to give an answer when it isn't clear cut in print.
It's a long story (which I won't bore you with) but through them being evasive, I only paid my January tax bill last week.
It was a lot of money, it was in their interest to give me what I wanted but because there wasn't the answer to my question in their script, they wouldn't answer it.
An accountant could say 'it's not cut and dry, you can't do this, but you may want to do that but I would suggest the other...'

I do agree with you CC re: going direct, but only if the question is relatively simple. But when it comes to tax, the answer is rarely simple.
Title: Re: employing or self employed
Post by: CleanClear on May 17, 2014, 07:28:08 pm


Easier to go direct to the tax man  ;D

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/calcs/esi.htm

HR people deal with employment. Accountants are for figures. Taxman does it all  ;D

The taxtw@ is very difficult to pin down to give an answer when it isn't clear cut in print.
It's a long story (which I won't bore you with) but through them being evasive, I only paid my January tax bill last week.
It was a lot of money, it was in their interest to give me what I wanted but because there wasn't the answer to my question in their script, they wouldn't answer it.
An accountant could say 'it's not cut and dry, you can't do this, but you may want to do that but I would suggest the other...'

I do agree with you CC re: going direct, but only if the question is relatively simple. But when it comes to tax, the answer is rarely simple.

Yeah i take your point. In the case of the above advice though (wrongly or rightly) it always makes me laugh when people say "see an accountant" for this type of stuff, they're bean counters and no more, i don't mean any disrespect to them by saying that just that they are not qualified to give out employment status advice, daresay some could dip their toe in and have a guess.
   That link i gave above though, if you look through it, its pretty comprehensive and does say along the lines of...if you fill it out, get your answer, print it out (and keep it as proof) it should cover you in the case of a questioned descision.
Title: Re: employing or self employed
Post by: edward1 on May 17, 2014, 11:34:36 pm
ok thx for that
Title: Re: employing or self employed
Post by: Total shine cleaning services on May 18, 2014, 04:49:44 am
so can you take on somebody, put him in one of your vans, give him a schedule of cleans and pay him self employed or not, anybody doing this..?

Graham
Title: Re: employing or self employed
Post by: Tom White on May 18, 2014, 11:05:16 am
so can you take on somebody, put him in one of your vans, give him a schedule of cleans and pay him self employed or not, anybody doing this..?

Graham

If something happened and it went to court, you'd find he was employed in this scenario and therefore employed and you'd very likely be held responsible as his/her employer.

Or if the 'self employed employee' was audited for tax purposes and had not been paying his taxes on his 'self employment income', you would be liable for them and they'd very likely look into your tax affairs too.

I know someone who this happened to (different business to ours though) and it turned his world upside down for a while.
Title: Re: employing or self employed
Post by: PoleKing on May 18, 2014, 11:10:15 am
so can you take on somebody, put him in one of your vans, give him a schedule of cleans and pay him self employed or not, anybody doing this..?

Graham

If something happened and it went to court, you'd find he was employed in this scenario and therefore employed and you'd very likely be held responsible as his/her employer.

Or if the 'self employed employee' was audited for tax purposes and had not been paying his taxes on his 'self employment income', you would be liable for them and they'd very likely look into your tax affairs too.

I know someone who this happened to (different business to ours though) and it turned his world upside down for a while.

Surely it'd matter the ammount of hours done.
I have a self employed guy work for me, 1 day a week, he uses my my kit. But the other 4 days he's on his own, doing his own work.
Even if he did 2 days, he's still doing 60% his own.
I'd think the problem would lie in doing more than half.
I doubt there's any solid legislation on it.
Title: Re: employing or self employed
Post by: Tom White on May 18, 2014, 11:17:52 am
Surely it'd matter the ammount of hours done.
I have a self employed guy work for me, 1 day a week, he uses my my kit. But the other 4 days he's on his own, doing his own work.
Even if he did 2 days, he's still doing 60% his own.
I'd think the problem would lie in doing more than half.
I doubt there's any solid legislation on it.

I think it's more complex and he could be classed as a part time employee, which is still an employee.  I would guess some stuff - if problems arose - would be settled in court.

Here from gov.uk:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v737/tosh0987/2014-05-18_11-15_Employmentstatus_zpsd97cd2f9.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/tosh0987/media/2014-05-18_11-15_Employmentstatus_zpsd97cd2f9.jpg.html)
Title: Re: employing or self employed
Post by: Total shine cleaning services on May 18, 2014, 10:39:31 pm
nice one Tosh, that's more or less what I've been saying, I've also noticed that some of the insurance companies are asking for employment reference numbers for any staff you are asking them to insure

Graham