Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: dazmond on April 10, 2014, 08:25:30 pm
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i came across a wagga video yesterday.he does like to make videos!! ;D
now he comes across as a likeable chap but some of his DIY stuff i think is a bit rubbish to be honest!
he has a 600L IBC tank on pallet in his van SCREWED INTO THE PLY FLOOR ONLY.and a few flimsy looking straps.
also a lot of his diy stuff is just extra faff and slows you down IMO.
he does make me laugh though! ;D
so have any of you got ibc tanks in your vans?
regards
dazmond
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I have'nt, but I know a couple of people who do. Seems to work well enough for them.
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Dazmond, have you only got plates under your van floor or have they gone under the chassis for support?
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under the chassis mate. :)
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just curious because I was surprised to learn that Grippamax use bonded plates under the floor and as far as I know don't use the chassis (although I could be mistaken).
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Vans have a chassis? News to me.
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News to me too.. the smaller vans combo's etc dont as such anymore.
dont no about bigger vans tho transits sprinters etc
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Drilling through your chassis actually weakens your chassis.
That's why grippamax don't do it. Special plates under the floor I'm sure is what they use.
That's why if you don't know what your doing then it's better just having your tank ratchet strapped down with 5 tonne cargo straps. :)
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Ever looked at a chassis? You'll find they are full of holes already. Ratchet straps are useless if the rings aren't rated at least the same or above. No point having a 5 tonne strap on a noodle welded to the wheel arch (as my dispatch was).
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We use IBC tanks, bolted through the floor and I baffle them with perforated pipe.
I get no slosh or water movement with these, where the Wyvale tanks always suffered this
Darran
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Ever looked at a chassis? You'll find they are full of holes already. Ratchet straps are useless if the rings aren't rated at least the same or above. No point having a 5 tonne strap on a noodle welded to the wheel arch (as my dispatch was).
;D
Your right there.
Need to make sure your anchor points are up to the job. Usually need upgrading.
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Your post whilst strictly factual, is misleading and not addressing anything whats been posted.
Ever looked at a chassis? You'll find they are full of holes already.
As far as i'm aware anything less than about 3.5Ton gross vehicle weight does not have a chassis. They are monoqouque construction, which is basicaslly the vehicle body strength is all in the shell, albeit with some additional ribbing. Drilling into, squashing or clamping this ribbing compromises the integrity of it.
If you're refering to holes already pre drilled into conventional chassis, i.e 3.5T tranny van, they are usually there for a purpose. I.e modification to uprated suspension, tipper body, luton body etc.
Ratchet straps are useless if the rings aren't rated at least the same or above. No point having a 5 tonne strap on a noodle welded to the wheel arch (as my dispatch was).
You'll find that load lashing points do indeed meet the vehicles saftey criteria. Although if someone chooses to fit say.....an upright tank near the bulkhead and secure this (which is probably somewhere near the total payload) then indeed just using a few of the lashing points may not really suffice.
I've said it before and i'll say it again, the current marketting blurb from any tank/frame/manufacturers/fitters/crash testers all focuses on one thing..........the tank frame retains its integrity in an accident. Totally rips the arse out you're van, but the frames fine. They all follow a bolt through the floor method. Its archaic, crap and a case of following what everyone else has done. The tanks need securing in the vehicle other than bolting through the floor, its very easy to do and a lot safer and it doesn't trash your van in a shunt.
The current crash test videos all compare a floor bolted weak frame giving way in an sudden stop, the they show the same thing with their "safe frame" ripping out a floor, but staying intact. So thats it, there only them two options? Don't think so.
But like everything, people are selective in what they want to see. Often Dave you shudder at people with home made tanks, gas heaters etc.. and think nothing of flouting a 20mph saftey limit? We all have our own standards eh? Of course i'm sure that YOU personally will be fine driving at 40mph through a 20mph limit with a saftey water tank fitted, even though your insurance have deemed you high risk and bumped your premium that you complained about. Wasn't your fault though? I get that.
And if anyones further interested in vehicle fluid tanks and saftey, go check out any artics 450 litre diesel tank on the side of it and see how its secured. I've never heard of one coming off and hurting anyone. Looks to me like two metal bands and four small bolts. but eh, what do i know !!
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The current crash test videos all compare a floor bolted weak frame giving way in an sudden stop, the they show the same thing with their "safe frame" ripping out a floor, but staying intact. So thats it, there only them two options? Don't think so.
Don't know what you're saying here?
The crash test videos I've seen from ionics show a system secured in place (ie not ripping out of the floor) and the frame holding the tank in place.
There are similar ones from grippatank I think too.
That is what you'd want in a crash isn't it?
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The current crash test videos all compare a floor bolted weak frame giving way in an sudden stop, the they show the same thing with their "safe frame" ripping out a floor, but staying intact. So thats it, there only them two options? Don't think so.
Don't know what you're saying here?
The crash test videos I've seen from ionics show a system secured in place (ie not ripping out of the floor) and the frame holding the tank in place.
There are similar ones from grippatank I think too.
That is what you'd want in a crash isn't it?
Not really...
In a crash I'd want (driver fine, obvs) the tank to fall apart and the integrity of the van to not be compromised.
I think what CC is trying to say is that both your tank and van will be boshed in anything over a minor knock.
That's not ideal.
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The current crash test videos all compare a floor bolted weak frame giving way in an sudden stop, the they show the same thing with their "safe frame" ripping out a floor, but staying intact. So thats it, there only them two options? Don't think so.
Don't know what you're saying here?
The crash test videos I've seen from ionics show a system secured in place (ie not ripping out of the floor) and the frame holding the tank in place.
There are similar ones from grippatank I think too.
That is what you'd want in a crash isn't it?
They wreck the floor thus making your van a right off. When i say "ripping out the floor" i should say "ripping up your floor" . This is a strange scenario, because i know for a fact some insurance companies are asking have you got a fitted/certified tank system. If you do have one then the way they are currently fitted will write off the van, but ironically due to lobbying by the tank fitters/manufacturers in an effort to make sure they are used in preference to alternate fitting its a no go for insurance.
In short, you're paying top whack for something certified which is far short of what it should be. Poleking has the jist of what i'm saying.
I love that ionics video of the 1000lts ibc crash test. You think they needed a video to show that was gonna happen? No, you know thats gonna happen due to the way a flimsy frame/pallet is secured through the floor.
NOTE: the test ensures "frame integrity", not your van floor nor owt else. If the frame comes through the back of your van and hits you in the head you can sleep easy as long as the next person can use it and its integrity is not compromised?
Also note, none of them have a secure fitting method. Or i should say a tested secure fitting method. NONE of them. But everyone believes they are safe with one....
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Good posts cleanclear
The way information is presented, with certain parts being highlighted pulls people into thinking the way companies want them to think.
The best place for a tank (IMO) I'd tight to a bulkhead, where can it go it has no chance of being propelled forward, so impact is absorbed through the van as if effect it is part of the van.
Tanks set further back have the chance to pick up velocity in an impact before reaching the cab, where even a bulkhead would struggle to retain the force.
I'm not convinced that these Wyvale upright tanks ie.. 400/600/800 ltrs are safe to carry anywhere but against the bulkhead they are too narrow for the height, so bolting these to the floor only puts a lot of pressure on theses points
Darran
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My crappy home made system (flat 650L Wyevale) is this.
650 tank sat in a home made welded frame (90 x 90 angle iron at the back with 75 x 75 on the sides and front with a mix of ten 12mm and 16mm high tensile bolts to a mix of plates and angle iron underneath the van)
The frame, bolts and underneath plates and angle weigh 35kg.
The top front edge of the tank is set against the van bulkhead (with 50mm wall insulation stuck to the tank).
The tank is strapped into the frame at the back through its baffles by two 5 tonne straps which are wound around the tank 3 times each before being tightened.
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duncs on the other site has a mec vito, with a 1000 baffled tank from purefreedom, just strapped with ratchet straps. fills the whole lengh of van. filled to top
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common sense is all thats needed. you have to look at different scenarios ie, a parcel company has to deliver a ibc tank full of non hazardous chemicals in a transit van. they wouldnt bolt it to the floor would they.
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They wreck the floor thus making your van a right off. When i say "ripping out the floor" i should say "ripping up your floor" . This is a strange scenario, because i know for a fact some insurance companies are asking have you got a fitted/certified tank system. If you do have one then the way they are currently fitted will write off the van, but ironically due to lobbying by the tank fitters/manufacturers in an effort to make sure they are used in preference to alternate fitting its a no go for insurance.
In short, you're paying top whack for something certified which is far short of what it should be. Poleking has the jist of what i'm saying.
I love that ionics video of the 1000lts ibc crash test. You think they needed a video to show that was gonna happen? No, you know thats gonna happen due to the way a flimsy frame/pallet is secured through the floor.
NOTE: the test ensures "frame integrity", not your van floor nor owt else. If the frame comes through the back of your van and hits you in the head you can sleep easy as long as the next person can use it and its integrity is not compromised?
Also note, none of them have a secure fitting method. Or i should say a tested secure fitting method. NONE of them. But everyone believes they are safe with one....
No offense, but I think you've got the completely wrong end of the stick.
Ionics and others such as grippa have designed it so that the system "stays put". if it rips through the floor, then the machine has obviously failed. The whole point is that the driver and passengers are kept safe. For me, that's the most important thing! If I have a serious crash I will care more about the fact that the tank won't crush me. I won't be worrying about the van being a write off, I'll be rather glad to be alive.
I love that ionics video of the 1000lts ibc crash test. You think they needed a video to show that was gonna happen? No, you know thats gonna happen due to the way a flimsy frame/pallet is secured through the floor.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the 1000 ltr ionics crash test shows the van crashing into a wall and the ionics system stays where it is (attached to the van floor) - like I said before, isn't that exactly what you'd want?
I honestly don't understand what point you are trying to make.
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in order to understand this, we have to stop being selfish and stop worrying about us and our vans, you could be hitting a family of five head on, if you have a system strapped down correctly, as each anchor point strap etc fails, it slows down and reduces the forward force, protecting you and the car of five, a bolted down system will protect you but go straight through the car of five like a runaway train, then your are buggered anyway
hope that makes sense
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Your post whilst strictly factual, is misleading and not addressing anything whats been posted.
Ever looked at a chassis? You'll find they are full of holes already.
As far as i'm aware anything less than about 3.5Ton gross vehicle weight does not have a chassis. They are monoqouque construction, which is basicaslly the vehicle body strength is all in the shell, albeit with some additional ribbing. Drilling into, squashing or clamping this ribbing compromises the integrity of it.
If you're refering to holes already pre drilled into conventional chassis, i.e 3.5T tranny van, they are usually there for a purpose. I.e modification to uprated suspension, tipper body, luton body etc.
Ratchet straps are useless if the rings aren't rated at least the same or above. No point having a 5 tonne strap on a noodle welded to the wheel arch (as my dispatch was).
You'll find that load lashing points do indeed meet the vehicles saftey criteria. Although if someone chooses to fit say.....an upright tank near the bulkhead and secure this (which is probably somewhere near the total payload) then indeed just using a few of the lashing points may not really suffice.
I've said it before and i'll say it again, the current marketting blurb from any tank/frame/manufacturers/fitters/crash testers all focuses on one thing..........the tank frame retains its integrity in an accident. Totally rips the arse out you're van, but the frames fine. They all follow a bolt through the floor method. Its archaic, crap and a case of following what everyone else has done. The tanks need securing in the vehicle other than bolting through the floor, its very easy to do and a lot safer and it doesn't trash your van in a shunt.
The current crash test videos all compare a floor bolted weak frame giving way in an sudden stop, the they show the same thing with their "safe frame" ripping out a floor, but staying intact. So thats it, there only them two options? Don't think so.
But like everything, people are selective in what they want to see. Often Dave you shudder at people with home made tanks, gas heaters etc.. and think nothing of flouting a 20mph saftey limit? We all have our own standards eh? Of course i'm sure that YOU personally will be fine driving at 40mph through a 20mph limit with a saftey water tank fitted, even though your insurance have deemed you high risk and bumped your premium that you complained about. Wasn't your fault though? I get that.
And if anyones further interested in vehicle fluid tanks and saftey, go check out any artics 450 litre diesel tank on the side of it and see how its secured. I've never heard of one coming off and hurting anyone. Looks to me like two metal bands and four small bolts. but eh, what do i know !!
Flipping 'eck bit strong isn't it? You can fit a system that's been tested or you can lash your own system up that nobody has tested. Choice is yours. My van appears to have a chassis (Toyota) it also has several drilled and shaped holes in it too. I'm not too bothered about the van being a write off in a crash, the only thing I want to know is that I've done as much as possible to ensure I'll survive (or anyone else in the cab). If I fit ratchet straps with say a six mill thick hook to some crappy thin french welded on noodle of half the diameter then I'm pretty sure it's going to rip it off.
in no time at all.
Bulk heads? Yes good idea but they don't seem that thick to me.
Unfortunately nobody has crash tested a big tank held in with ratchet straps and chewing gum to convince me it's the way to go. If they had and I could see the evidence then I might do the same.
From a suppliers point of view - what more can they do? They have designed a system that seems to work, tested it and offered it up for sale. You don't have to buy one but I would purely because the alternative hasn't been shown to be safe.
PS I ran a Dispatch for a couple of years with a bodged up ratchet strapped 650l tank in the back. However, I was never sure it was going to withstand a crash so the next vehicle I bought had a bolted in system and cage and bulkhead. I just felt that at the time I had done the best I could possibly do to make it safe, hopefully I'll not test it out.
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Flipping 'eck bit strong isn't it? You can fit a system that's been tested or you can lash your own system up that nobody has tested. Choice is yours.
Yeah sorry about that. But it does my nut in fellas (i'm not specifying you)...saying bolt through the chassis, most of them havn't got one to bolt to.
As you say people can make their own mind up. And i'm certainley not going to argue a point that one of these "crash tested "systems are no good.
I'm saying they're over hyped using buzzwords...saftey, tested,peace of mind etc..oh, and now some are offering certificates for your insurance company, and insurance companies are starting to ask. Thats a worry.
Facts are no one to date has been hurt by a tank. No crash tests have failed for products designed to keep thing in the van. The only failed test you'll see is the purposely set up IBC bolted to the floor with nothing but a flimsy ally frame to support the thin plastic tank. No one has to do any real research, its not rocket science to secure a tank. But it is expensive to pay MIRA Ltd ( a profit making company) for a test, and of course manufacturers want to recoup.
There's very specific requirements now for load security and saftey, and without goig through all the waffle about it, there's two important points to meet. Not only will they satisfy the law, they'll also keep you safe............
1. Your tank will need to be secured down to the floor bed.
2. it should not be able to move forward.
Also, i'm just waffling on here.....
the test are not done in different vehicles, they're not done on different size/layout of tanks? So whats the concept that has "passed the saftey test" , a strong metal frame?
We're at a bizzare stage now whereby Ionics tested a 1000 litre tank and it passed a MIRA test. They now sell for example a 400 litre and frame, not them selves but through their budget retail outlet , puresomething or other and because its a sister company they think they have the same accreditation. So they sell a 400 litre certified tank based on the fact their paret company tested a 1000 litre one.
Its total hype, i've said my piece and i'm out !!!
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I've got a 1000L IBC in a van. It has been fitted by these guys, very professional.
http://www.vantagevcltd.co.uk/
I have no fears with it.
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That's interesting actually.......
Has there ever been a case of injury caused by a water tank in the back of the van?
You'd think with that many WFP guys there is bound to have been some big accidents with "un crash tested" systems.