Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Stephen.C on April 07, 2014, 09:26:30 pm
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On a commercial job today and pumped water on a ionic 100 psi for 2 and half hours. The pump was set at quarter speed which I normally set at for most jobs. ( I think if a control unit was fitted it would be on 2/3 ) went to move the van and the battery was almost flat, so slow to turn over. The pump was warm to touch but not hot. I've heard that when your pump starts to age and get hot, it draws more power from your battery. Battery is less than two years old and the pump is nearly 5 years. I don't use a leisure battery, it's straight off the van battery as is the fill solenoid. Thanks Steve
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Battery I reckon.
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Battery.
If you dont use a leisure one then it will eventually burn out because your taking charge out of it then charging it back up again, and a car battery is designed to charge whilst the engine is in use, not to be run down then recharged
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Battery.
If you dont use a leisure one then it will eventually burn out because your taking charge out of it then charging it back up again, and a car battery is designed to charge whilst the engine is in use, not to be run down then recharged
its funny i and many others use car batteries with no problem at all.
I also see plenty of people on here moaning there leisure battery has only lasted a year or less.
A good quality car battery will run a wfp pump with ease and will charge quicker.
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i also use car batteries hense why i know straight away this is the problem, on of the cells in the battery will have gone so it will loose charge fast due to continuous charge.
When a car battery is drained then charged again over a long period of time it will become weak.
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A leisure (deep cycle) battery and a vehicle battery are very different in there charge/discharge cycles
A vehicle battery is designed to provide a lot of amps in a very short burst then recharge slowly via the alternator while the engine is running.
A Leisure battery is designed to give lower amps over a prolonged period, It will also take longer to recharge.
The risk of using your vehicle battery to run WFP is that you are likely to run the battery to low to start the vehicle.
Based on your comments Steve I would tend to lean toward the battery being the source of your problem.
Battery Basics: http://www.progressivedyn.com/battery_basics.html
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I have found over the years that it is a rare battery that can survive for more than two years being used also to run the vehicle. On average I have found them to last for 18 months maximum when being used to do both jobs.
I now use a two battery system as it is not fun getting stranded at a job because the vehicle will not start. However although the science would say that a leisure battery is best I have found in practice that a standard large vehicle battery actually survives longer than a leisure battery - maximum I have had from a leisure battery is about 26 months being used as a second battery with a split charger whereas I am on my 5th year with a large capacity standard vehicle battery and split charger (vehicle does have an uprated alternator though).
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Thank you chaps. I have got three days off now so I'm sorting it, popped in fords, Nothing wrong with the battery.
The technician said its the lowest amp battery the van can have and said the pump and fill solenoid are running the battery down. He suggested a higher amp battery.....£165 plus vat :o
Went to ATS same battery £105 inc VAT. Having it fitted this afternoon. He also recommended a smart charger that I can plug in and basically leave on overnight weekend holiday etc.
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i use the car battery as a second battery that is charged via a split charger not using the van battery itself .
Never have to charge my battery and i believe a car battery can take a higher charge rate.
All the theory about discharge cycles etc is great but its what happens practically that is important.
In my opinion car/van batteries are much higher quality because car manufacturers don't expect people who buy there vehicles to have to replace the battery after a couple of years.
Even a car battery from the scrappy is better than a new leisure battery in my opinion.
The bosch s5 batteries are what i would buy though , 110 ah for £130 .
Its also capable of starting the van if you leave your lights on , couple of jump leads from the system battery and away you go.
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Had the new battery fitted and the smart charger for less money than what ford want to charge me.
This is the charger I have fitted http://www.ctekchargers.co.uk/ctek-mxs5.0.php. Thanks for your help.
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BANNER batteries. Please EVERYONE listen to me!! 8)
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Hi everyone this is an intresting read for me as i bring in my pump box battery and charge every night.
Robert if i were to copy yourself i could buy a bosch car battery for £130 strap battery down for safety in back of van, then get an auto electrician to fit a split charger so battery in back of van never has to come out.
Anyone know roughly what cost for having split charger fitted?
thanks lee.
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Hi everyone this is an intresting read for me as i bring in my pump box battery and charge every night.
Robert if i were to copy yourself i could buy a bosch car battery for £130 strap battery down for safety in back of van, then get an auto electrician to fit a split charger so battery in back of van never has to come out.
Anyone know roughly what cost for having split charger fitted?
thanks lee.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/161270572314?redirect=mobile
Really easy to fit yourself, not had to charge leisure battery in 6months and probably do around 50miles a week
Edit : sorry i meant 100-150 miles a week!
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Thanks very much for that Don ;)
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Hi everyone this is an intresting read for me as i bring in my pump box battery and charge every night.
Robert if i were to copy yourself i could buy a bosch car battery for £130 strap battery down for safety in back of van, then get an auto electrician to fit a split charger so battery in back of van never has to come out.
Anyone know roughly what cost for having split charger fitted?
thanks lee.
Grippa fitted mine when fitting tank so not sure exact cost , i do know however the one they fit is of very good quality and is available on there website .
its pretty easy to fit yourself i think but wouldn't cost too much for an auto elec to do it for you.
i would go for the btter quality one rather than a cheapo.
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BANNER not Bosch IMO
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Why banner please divulge . Mike
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Having a friend who has been selling batteries for over 30 years to the motor trade and public gives me a bit of an edge. ;)
He does not work for banner but after selling every battery make under the sun this is the only one he stocks. His reason is they are very very reliable.
I use them and have never had any problems.
Hope this helps
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what size battery do you use and how long have you used it for , Needing to buy one in the next week only getting 2 days out of my current battery . Thanks Mike
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http://www.bannerbatterien.com/banner/produkte/batterien/starting_bull/index2_en.php
One of these, ask a GOOD motor factors what you require for your van, they should ask your reg number or ask for some details.
I run my van off one and have one to run the system, no split charger!! I NEVER take it out to charge and never had a flat battery for starting the van. I run a flowjet pump with manual flow controlller with a bypass for my hot system so my pump pretty much runs constant all day. Used to have 2 reels running off the one pump running just about flat out, again no problems. Since fitting the Banner (2 years ago) never had any worries.
Split chargers can cause you all sorts of problems, I have seen them nearly completely melted causing rapid battery drain and this was installed correctly and fused.
Wfp'ers cannot earn any money without a 'decent' battery its worth buying quality IMO.
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I dont use split charger either just leisure battery in pump box , I can get a 60ah for £60:00 need to know if it is worth spending an extra £40:00 .
So you are saying you have never had to charge the battery running your pump , How many months have you had it . Thanks Mike
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Hi everyone this is an intresting read for me as i bring in my pump box battery and charge every night.
Robert if i were to copy yourself i could buy a bosch car battery for £130 strap battery down for safety in back of van, then get an auto electrician to fit a split charger so battery in back of van never has to come out.
Anyone know roughly what cost for having split charger fitted?
thanks lee.
so easy to fit your self ????????
did you fit it then :P :P :P
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/161270572314?redirect=mobile
Really easy to fit yourself, not had to charge leisure battery in 6months and probably do around 50miles a week
Edit : sorry i meant 100-150 miles a week!
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http://www.bannerbatterien.com/banner/produkte/batterien/starting_bull/index2_en.php
One of these, ask a GOOD motor factors what you require for your van, they should ask your reg number or ask for some details.
I run my van off one and have one to run the system, no split charger!! I NEVER take it out to charge and never had a flat battery for starting the van. I run a flowjet pump with manual flow controlller with a bypass for my hot system so my pump pretty much runs constant all day. Used to have 2 reels running off the one pump running just about flat out, again no problems. Since fitting the Banner (2 years ago) never had any worries.
Split chargers can cause you all sorts of problems, I have seen them nearly completely melted causing rapid battery drain and this was installed correctly and fused.
Wfp'ers cannot earn any money without a 'decent' battery its worth buying quality IMO.
No split charger and you don't have to charge it?
Have you got one if them everlasting batteries?
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http://www.bannerbatterien.com/banner/produkte/batterien/starting_bull/index2_en.php
One of these, ask a GOOD motor factors what you require for your van, they should ask your reg number or ask for some details.
I run my van off one and have one to run the system, no split charger!! I NEVER take it out to charge and never had a flat battery for starting the van. I run a flowjet pump with manual flow controlller with a bypass for my hot system so my pump pretty much runs constant all day. Used to have 2 reels running off the one pump running just about flat out, again no problems. Since fitting the Banner (2 years ago) never had any worries.
Split chargers can cause you all sorts of problems, I have seen them nearly completely melted causing rapid battery drain and this was installed correctly and fused.
Wfp'ers cannot earn any money without a 'decent' battery its worth buying quality IMO.
No split charger and you don't have to charge it?
Have you got one if them everlasting batteries?
exactly what i was thinking .
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YOU CAN STILL HAVE A SECONDARY BATTERY CONNECTED TO YOUR ALTERNATOR WITHOUT A SPLIT CHARGER!
Mine is connected to the main van battery positive to positive and the secondary batteries 'earthed' to the chassis.
It has been fitted this way for at least 24 months and I have never removed either battery to charge it.
Forget about a £60 leisure battery!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You can buy a 'brodex' pole or you can buy an 'slx' ! No comparison, get what I am saying?
To those that are doubting my methods can I ask you this, What is a split charger designed to do?
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I dont think you explained things properly first mate that is all , As i use my battery independently like a lot of lads i was wanting to know approximate the lifespan of the battery .
I currently use a Halfords 60ah battery had it 14 months now used for about 12 months still under a 2 year warranty so might chance taking it back for an exchange when its closer to been knackered . Mike
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Hi Mike, I was commenting on the 'magic everlasting battery comment'
People spend fortunes on vans, kit, pumps, controllers etc then spend as little as possible on the one thing that makes it all work.
I would not want to be removing my batteries to charge once a month never mind twice a week.
Duracell and cheap china batteries spring to mind. Both power the same item BUT theres a massive difference in performance.
A split chargers job is simply to stop you running your van battery down so low that your van wont start, it does not add power or help in any way with the charging of your second battery. (in fact can hinder charging current if its cheap!)
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David.
Sorry i am a d.i.y wally ;D
You just connected wire from van battery positive terminal, run wire in van connected to positive on work battery and as you say just earthed battery on bodywork.
Or alternator is connected in.
did you do this yourself?,or auto electrician?
thanks David.
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Correct Lee.
Also, fitted myself, used to be auto electrician if that helps.
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Thanks David.
Lee
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make sure you put a fuse in the cable as close to the van battery as possible to avoid any mishaps!
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Update, New battery fitted and battery condition indicator with smart charger.
The condition indicator work's on a traffic light system, im very concerned that I can pump for no more than 2 hours without going into the red. When its red it means less than 60% of charge is left in the battery. The Van starts ok and turns over much faster. At night after the fill ,I check the indicator to see what light is glowing on the indicator, the last few nights is has stayed green and once went to orange, but that was after a backwash using the pump.
Yesterday luckily I was working on a job and got talking to a engineer who offered me a meter to see what my pump was pulling amp wise whilst pumping. In short the longer I pump the warmer the pump gets and more current the pump requires. He said when that pump get very hot to touch....... bin it as it will flatten your battery in a very short space of time.
So it looks like I had a combination of both a very week battery and a pump that is wearing out.
I probably didn't now need to get the smart charger as the pump is wearing out, but it will prolong the life of the battery with its condition mode. http://www.theultimatefinish.co.uk/ctek/mxs-5-0-12v-battery-charger-and-conditioner.aspx
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More money ;D
I've got a collection of pumps in my garage now - never entirely sure if there's anything wrong with them to be honest.
Running a Flojet at the moment - expensive but seems pretty solid. Interestingly one site refused to sell them as they reckon Flojets pull too much current.
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Lol yes Dave, done very well mate its 5 years old.
It's ok for now. Its a Ionic pump very good but as normal its marked up greatly.
http://www.ionicshop.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=170
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make sure you put a fuse in the cable as close to the van battery as possible to avoid any mishaps!
Hi Dave
Interesting thread.
I'm still trying to get my head around this.
My deduction to is this; with the batteries being linked together, both the van and second battery will be supplying your power needs. This is the same principle as lorry batteries; two 12 volt batteries linked together to give a 24 volt output. We were always taught that both batteries had to be the same/similar size as the smaller battery would always do more work and tend to fail first.
Hence if I was to drain my battery today by 20% then being linked together would theoretically (if both batteries were the same) use 10% from each battery.
What size cable would you recommend to link the two batteries together and what size fuse do you use? Also, would distance from the van battery to the second battery complicate matters? I would say that most of us have our second batteries in the back of the van.
I also think that a good starter battery, leaning toward the spec of a traction battery, is more expensive than a good quality leisure battery. I don't know how much Oak Road Motor Factors charges for a 110 amp Banner battery, bit it would probably be more than the £80 I paid for my Numax 110 amph unit 3 years ago.
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Toyota Hiace runs two batteries as standard. I have a live feed and switch from one of them to power my pump. Would this be a similar set up? I presume both batteries start the van in my case. My batteries are seven years old now and touch wood I've never had a problem since powering my pump for the last couple of years or more. Wouldn't the alternator need an upgrade to cope with a second battery on other vans?
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Toyota Hiace runs two batteries as standard. I have a live feed and switch from one of them to power my pump. Would this be a similar set up? I presume both batteries start the van in my case. My batteries are seven years old now and touch wood I've never had a problem since powering my pump for the last couple of years or more. Wouldn't the alternator need an upgrade to cope with a second battery on other vans?
Hi Dave
Yes, this is the same setup as David Kents is. Malc (Gold's) Hyundi van also has two batteries I believe.
Transit chassis cabs where sold with the same twin battery packs as standard as most went on to become tippers and needed the extra power to drive the hydraulic ram. They also had bigger alternators. Most other manufacturers also offer the twin battery pack option as a factory fit extra although its very customer specific.
I know on the Transit vans the cables that link the batteries together are heavy duty battery cables.
Hence the question to Dave Kent about what size cable he uses.
I think it was standard on all Hiaces but if its standard fit on the new van sourced from PSA, then it will be a spec addition as PSA doesn't do twin batteries as standard on their Dispatch/Expert/Scudo models.
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Hi Bruce, I use a good quality 17 amp cable, battery is in the back with a 15 amp fuse.
Battery is a 85ah banner linked to a 65ah.
My pump is 12 years old, dont know if it really heats up as Im too busy cleaning windows lol.
IMO keeping everything simple (no scr or monitors and meters) gives your battery every chance possible.
I have known batteries to be drained overnight by a single flashing LED. IMO the quality of your battery is the most important aspect in all this. Oak road charged me £110 at the time for the 85ah. (battery prices go up and down with the scrap metal prices)
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Hi Dave.
This is interesting as I would have thought that the draw from the starter motor would have demanded a higher amperage from the second battery than the size cable you are using and the rated fuse.
If anyone asked me I would have said that 15amp fuse would have blown the first time they started their engine.
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Never blown yet. Technically speaking it should but doesnt on any of the 3 vans.