Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Steven Butler on April 01, 2014, 10:53:09 am
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Been reading through dynamall threads and it seems to good and easy to be true...could I clean a carpet using just dynamall and a floormac (no HWE)?
If so what brush/pads would I need for a floormac.
Also is dynamall suitable for domestics? If it is then it cleans, deodorises and stainguards....seems a bit too good to be true?
Any info welcome
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it depends what you mean by protection? It dosent give surface tension to the capet after its been applied ie fluid does not bead on the surface as it would after an aplication of Scotchguard or somthing similar, but the carpet will stay cleaner once Dynamall has been used to clean the carpet
if it was me I wouldn't use it in a domestic situation, but thats my personal choice, I prefere to use hwe for all domestic work and keep encap with dynamal and releasit for my comercial customers
Stuart
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Thanks for replying.
Do you think dynamall is suitable for a very long runner in an Indian restaurant?
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Again, if its greasy and its likely to be, I would use hwe and a hot Enzyme prespray
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Ordered some dynamall and tried on lounge and hall stairs landing came up mint I also got a minging rug and was really bad so i thought I would try it on that also and hwe if needed but dynamall done a great job dropped off with customer and she was buzzing with it.
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It might be suitable for some domestics but given the vast array of different carpets in all manner of conditions in the domestic market, I think you would struggle on a lot of them. HWE is best for these as it can deal with a far wider variety of soil conditions and produce the required result.
Simon
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If you are going to use it it would be better to use a proper rotary rather than a floormac .
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Why's that???
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Encapsulation on domestics, Surround products.
http://www.truckmountforums.com/threads/can-you-beat-this.54755/#post-716868
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I don't believe those photos are pure 'before and after photos' . I think they are pre-sprayed then bonneted photos.
A soiled carpet with look that bad after you have presprayed the stains..... but the stain look horrendous because they are wet and have darkened.
And it would have neen interesting so see another photo 2 weeks later
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I m not knocking dynamall or pad systems as I use them myself with great results , but as Mike says you look at those carpets in a few weeks time and that badly stained area will have started to re appear. The pad clean will have removed the dirt stuck to the spills and a certain amount of the initial spilling problem but can't remove as much as HWE .
So it would look great initially but it wouldn't last, hence on that kind of job that system wouldn't be my choice.
Mike
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Before and after means just that. What it looked like before he started cleaning and then after he left?
Actually your not correct about the wet part. I have another picture where he sprayed his company name into the dirt
and made a clean mark with the letters he spelled out as the Confidence attacked the soils immediately.
This cleaner has gone through CT6 training.
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when does this stuff arrive in the UK ?
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I Have used Dynamall and other Encaps on Domestics with good results, in saying that they were not mingers just for maint. after I have done a HWE I will contact them for a maint clean (approx 6/9 months) using encap products.
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A truck mount wash will resoil faster then LM . Extraction chems can often leave a negative residue due to the rinses used. Encapsulation will leave a positive residue meaning it wont negatively effect the carpet. Lm is using encapsulation is absorbing soils from the top down. When you prespray your carpet before extraction which direction do the soils go? Your washing down and then trying to put it back up. With LM( if done properly) you didnt apply enough solution to the carpet to wash the soils to the bottom like you do with an injection sprayer. I have cleaned both ways for decades and have seen LM to stay cleaner much longer. When a larger amount hits the bottom and you cant pull it all out which is often the case you will/can create a wicking issue. Most guys also don't rinse the carpet more then 1 or 2 strokes so how dirty is the water left in the carpet? It can be the same as whats in the waste tank. Now before you want to cut my head off I offer both methods and make chems for both methods. I'm just witnessing to what I have seen over the last 10 years with encap.
This is also why you get far less wicking with LM. But to address your point its not the level of soil removed that causes a rapid re soiling but the type of residue left after the cleaning. If you use an alkaline rinse with your extraction you WILL be leaving behind surfactants that are sticky and this will resoil quickly. A clear water rinse is much better. The encapsulation polymer dries to a hard shell ( think M&M) and blocks off the surfactants from being sticky so it resoils at a normal rate.
The other issue can be that the cleaner in either case removed the soils stuck to the oily binder on the fibers thus making it look clean but did not remove the binders so it resoils quickly or the spot re appears.
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when does this stuff arrive in the UK ?
It left the States over a week ago. This product was designed to be for LM but also as a pre spray for extraction. Then preferably clear water rinsed.
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A truck mount wash will resoil faster then LM . Extraction chems can often leave a negative residue due to the rinses used. Encapsulation will leave a positive residue meaning it wont negatively effect the carpet. Lm is using encapsulation is absorbing soils from the top down. When you prespray your carpet before extraction which direction do the soils go? Your washing down and then trying to put it back up. With LM( if done properly) you didnt apply enough solution to the carpet to wash the soils to the bottom like you do with an injection sprayer. I have cleaned both ways for decades and have seen LM to stay cleaner much longer. When a larger amount hits the bottom and you cant pull it all out which is often the case you will/can create a wicking issue. Most guys also don't rinse the carpet more then 1 or 2 strokes so how dirty is the water left in the carpet? It can be the same as whats in the waste tank. Now before you want to cut my head off I offer both methods and make chems for both methods. I'm just witnessing to what I have seen over the last 10 years with encap.
This is also why you get far less wicking with LM. But to address your point its not the level of soil removed that causes a rapid re soiling but the type of residue left after the cleaning. If you use an alkaline rinse with your extraction you WILL be leaving behind surfactants that are sticky and this will resoil quickly. A clear water rinse is much better. The encapsulation polymer dries to a hard shell ( think M&M) and blocks off the surfactants from being sticky so it resoils at a normal rate.
The other issue can be that the cleaner in either case removed the soils stuck to the oily binder on the fibers thus making it look clean but did not remove the binders so it resoils quickly or the spot re appears.
I almost stopped reading after the first sentence, I thought I'd been transported back to the 70s, do we still peddle that nonsense about re soiling chemicals? It laughable that a silly point like that is needed to back up Encap cleaning.
I use a fresh water rinse, so I guess that argument does,nt count for me, or does a fresh water rinsed carpet also resoil quicker that Encap.
I don't believe any cleaning photo I see unless I did it myself its so easy to fake the 'clean effect' . the foam alone gives an immediate visual appearance of clean.
On those photos did he tell the customer that the dirt was still there just not visible so they will need to vac it up over the subsequent weeks? Encap is good in the right situation....... but that is not the right situation
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A truck mount wash will resoil faster then LM . Extraction chems can often leave a negative residue due to the rinses used. Encapsulation will leave a positive residue meaning it wont negatively effect the carpet. Lm is using encapsulation is absorbing soils from the top down. When you prespray your carpet before extraction which direction do the soils go? Your washing down and then trying to put it back up. With LM( if done properly) you didnt apply enough solution to the carpet to wash the soils to the bottom like you do with an injection sprayer. I have cleaned both ways for decades and have seen LM to stay cleaner much longer. When a larger amount hits the bottom and you cant pull it all out which is often the case you will/can create a wicking issue. Most guys also don't rinse the carpet more then 1 or 2 strokes so how dirty is the water left in the carpet? It can be the same as whats in the waste tank. Now before you want to cut my head off I offer both methods and make chems for both methods. I'm just witnessing to what I have seen over the last 10 years with encap.
This is also why you get far less wicking with LM. But to address your point its not the level of soil removed that causes a rapid re soiling but the type of residue left after the cleaning. If you use an alkaline rinse with your extraction you WILL be leaving behind surfactants that are sticky and this will resoil quickly. A clear water rinse is much better. The encapsulation polymer dries to a hard shell ( think M&M) and blocks off the surfactants professional chemicals dry to a crystalfrom being sticky so it resoils at a normal rate.
The other issue can be that the cleaner in either case removed the soils stuck to the oily binder on the fibers thus making it look clean but did not remove the binders so it resoils quickly or the spot re appears.
John,
You make a well known point that if you use cheap chemicals they can dry to a sticky residue and cause re-soiling. Most modern professional quality chemicals dry to a crystal. However, to say a TM 'wash' as you put it, will re-soil quicker than LM. Sorry, but that's complete rubbish. If done correctly a TM will provide a deeper and therefore longer lasting clean than any other carpet cleaning process on the planet. What you forgot to mention is that rapid re-soiling is caused far more by there being soil been left deep in the carpet pile following cleaning and when it dries pads back up to the surface. Admittedly sticky residues won't help in that regard, but are only part of the story. A TM cleans far deeper and removes far more of the soil in a carpet which is why they tend to stay cleaner longer, far longer.
I say all of that as a recent convert to LM and Encap, which have their place, but are by no means the answer in all situations.
Simon
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Mixed opinions then.
Thanks for the replies. Think I will order some and try it on my own carpets. How exactly does the process go assuming I use a floormac? Does it just need agitating in with a brush attachment or would I need pads?
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Steven
I have had brilliant results with pads
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This is also why you get far less wicking with LM. But to address your point its not the level of soil removed that causes a rapid re soiling but the type of residue left after the cleaning. If you use an alkaline rinse with your extraction you WILL be leaving behind surfactants that are sticky and this will resoil quickly. A clear water rinse is much better. The encapsulation polymer dries to a hard shell ( think M&M) and blocks off the surfactants from being sticky so it resoils at a normal rate.
I almost stopped reading after the first sentence, I thought I'd been transported back to the 70s, do we still peddle that nonsense about re soiling chemicals? It laughable that a silly point like that is needed to back up Encap cleaning.
I use a fresh water rinse, so I guess that argument does,nt count for me, or does a fresh water rinsed carpet also resoil quicker that Encap.
I don't believe any cleaning photo I see unless I did it myself its so easy to fake the 'clean effect' . the foam alone gives an immediate visual appearance of clean.
On those photos did he tell the customer that the dirt was still there just not visible so they will need to vac it up over the subsequent weeks? Encap is good in the right situation....... but that is not the right situation
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Where do I start. You dont need to be in the 70`s to resoil you just have to have some understanding of how the chemistrys dry or dont dry out. Whether or not you personally believe a photo has nothing to do with its validity. That's just your opinion which your entitled to even if your wrong.
To say the pics are fake is offensive. Foam dissipates after seconds. You knew that right? You could not have cleaned the entire room with two separate and different steps and still had foam.
The other fact you missed was the amount of soil on multiple pads that was pulled from the carpet. So, nothing to tell the customer. Throw the soiled pads in the washer and you have filthy water.
Dry down most any standard alkaline rinse and tell me what you see. Mix it to diluted recommendations and pour it down a window, let dry and see if its can be sticky. Thats why I clear water rinse but many companies don't.
You can have all sorts of soil sifted into the bottom of the carpet. That is not what causes rapid resoling. The soil has to stick to something or it would all vac out.
So you have the lack of removing the binder or an added residue or both. You can have lots of soil in the bottom that does not effect the face fibers. Hoover did a study years ago and sifted 80 pounds of soil in a room of carpet that you could not see.
Again, I own and offer both so Im just telling what I have seen. The fact is, the carpets looked great after the cleaning and to assume that they will re soil because you think they will is just an opinion, that doesn't make it a fact. If encap didn't get results then it would be dying not growing.
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An important point has been made which is whatever product you are using as the final process, put some at ready to use dilution into a saucer then leave to dry / evaporate. What is left? Dry powder/ crystals or a sticky residue? That s what you leave in the.carpet, simple as that!
Mike
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Leave the recovery tank of your machine full overnight and see what it smells like in the morning. It stinks, like a sewer, that's what encap leaves behind on domestic carpets, which is why I would only use it when I had to, especially when the means to get the same carpet super clean is sitting outside.
Simon
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No Simon, your tank smells like a sewer because the heat, crap and bacteria you have sucked out of the carpet has caused a soup which has multiplied the bacteria where it has actually become harmfull.
Bacteria needs moisture to live and re-produce. Once the carpets are dry nothing else is going on no matter what system was used.
The carpets which do smell are ones which have been over wet or the atmospheric conditions have not allowed any drying to take place. In these instances mould, mildews and bacteria flourish and it is this that gives off the musty, uriney type odour. This only happens when carpets have been wet extracted.
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I did a quick experiment this am .
One back door mat , carpet cut off .
Sprayed with shockwave and bonneted
Then half hwe after
Finally completely hwe
This was just a 5 min experiment .
I though the bonneted pic looked good until I hwe it
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Shockwave is a pre-spray designed to be extracted not a bonnet chemical so has worked exactly as prescribed.
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I did this just to show how spreading muck can make it look ok to the untrained eye, I shouldnt of told you I used shockwave it really doesn't matter what you use the results are the same its still in the carpet no matter what form its in .
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not if you do it properly Neil.. :P :P
;D
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I think that the thing here is that if you have nothing to compare it to then fine your system looks good. One system does not suit all situations. Many of us use a lot of different systems to enable us to give our customers the best results that we can. If you only use one system then you have a slightly skewed view as to what is the best. I do a lot of encapping but I do have the knowledge and experience to understand when it is the best system for the job. I am constantly evaluating what works and very often am using one system followed by another. The argument that one overall system is better than another shows nothing but ignorance and a lack of understanding. I have for 20 years tried to get good results with encapping and now get some incredible results, in the right situation of soil and type of carpet. To sell that to all of my customers would not be something that I could do as I know that it is not.
Peter
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Neil
would you bonnet clean after using Prochem Powerburst ? As shockwave and b́o blast are roughly the same , an enzyme prespray that would leaves a huge ammount of residue in a carpet if not rinsed out thoroughly ! Dont get me wrong I am a real lover of encap and have a commercial tomorow morning cleaning 1500 sq mts , but I will be using Releasit DS with a Punch Prespray first
the right chemicals for the job
stuart
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Stuart
When I encap I use dynamall and find it great ,
When I'm clean carpets of a lady who has a massive dog that leaves it's oils on the carpet I use shockwave filled by a acid rinse
When I bonnet I use bonnet buff
When I clean windows I use fairy and a unger squeegee .
I know what's right and what's wrong .
The point is the pic after bonnet ing looks great ,
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Neil
I think you have missed my point mate, a carpet full of residue, even if it looks great after you have finished cleaning it, wont look great for long
stuart
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Neil
I think you have missed my point mate, a carpet full of residue, even if it looks great after you have finished cleaning it, wont look great for long
stuart
Really !
I know that just showing you what you can pass off as clean .
and it not staying clean long that brings up another question . Who Cares
when i first started I used Blitz with no acid rinse and i had loads of work more regular as they were getting dirtier quicker so were calling me back more.
then i switched to MS and work dropped go figure
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Neil
I prefere to be known as an Ethicle carpet cleaner and not somone who boasts about leaving carpets with tons of residue in them after at ive just cleaned them to get more work !
I think you are posting on the rong board mate
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Technically encap does leave a residue but one with a positive benefit.
As Surround's T2H Polymer's residual chemistry dries, the suspended and emulsified soils along with the detergent molecules become locked inside of our unique polymeric structure. Think of the shell on an 'M&M'. The action of the chemistry plus the scrubbing of the pad and or bonnet breaks the soils in sometimes-smaller particles and separates the soils or foreign substances from the fiber giving you the instant clean look while suspending them in our encapsulating polymer. Once the detergent along with the soils are locked in our polymeric structure the detergent molecules “quit” cleaning, preventing rapid resoiling.
The polymeric structure is a relatively brittle film that will not allow the residual soils to reattach to the fiber surface due to their hardness and low surface tension. This is what also eliminates wicking in most situations. We have chosen to use a more durable hard film. It will not instantly sheer or break off like other formulas. This more durable hard polymer also reduces or eliminates any chance of air borne particulate issues and provides longer protection from particulate soil. All while allowing residual soils and the polymeric encapsulant to be removed by routine vacuuming.
Using absorbent bonnets is still critical for a good clean. I don't believe the encap alone ( like some competitors) is enough.
Leave the recovery tank of your machine full overnight and see what it smells like in the morning. It stinks, like a sewer, that's what encap leaves behind on domestic carpets, which is why I would only use it when I had to, especially when the means to get the same carpet super clean is sitting outside.
This is very unlikely to happen with LM and this is why. You be the judge. LM with encap if done properly will dry depending on humidity, air flow and air temp in twenty minutes to about and hour and 1/2. A clear water sink overflow can turn from clear to grey water in about 2 hours on carpet and get worse as the mold spores and bacterias not have needed water to grow. So the longer a carpet sites wet after an extraction job the greater the potential for bacterial growth. Now that does not mean it has to be a problem but it does present a greater potential for one.
You tank smells horrible due to lack of sunlight, stagnate air and the moisture that allows things to grow. When things grow they emit waste and that is the pathogen and the odor source.
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We encapped a commercial low profile tight loop carpet this morning, the carpet wasn't that bad but was very dusty so I needed to vacume it twice, I used Releasit DS2 with a buff pad ! Got a cracking result and we started at 6 am and finished at 10.45 1500 sq mts carpet was bone dry by 11.45 then we post vacumed the carpet, customer was very pleased and so was I when he gave me the cheque! Lol
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Stuart
Im not saying i do that ,only explaining that you can use anything to make a carpet look better .
Stuart
When I encap I use dynamall and find it great ,
When I'm clean carpets of a lady who has a massive dog that leaves it's oils on the carpet I use shockwave filled by a acid rinse
When I bonnet I use bonnet buff
When I clean windows I use fairy and a unger squeegee .
I know what's right and what's wrong .
The point is the pic after bonnet ing looks great ,
You be as Ethicle as you want .
I it ethicle to use child labour to make adidas football nike trainers , that you buy or your battery chicken that u scoff on sunday
what makes you so sure you are Ethicle are you chairman of the Ethicle society ;D
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Stuart
Is that your normal procedure to wait and post vac?
Whats a buff pad? White floor pad?
Never heard that term before.
Thanks
Mark
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Mark
never heard of post vac ? Come and watch me do it in Dunamanagh in two weeks time mate
post vac Mark is merely vacuming after you have encaped, it was done as part of the job, the carpets only take a very short time to dry and I thought I would get better results with sebos
a buff pad is the one between white and brown although I am waiting to get some fibre plus pads when
CSUK get some more stock in
stuart
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I'm guessing a buff pad is a beige scotch brite pad??
Shaun
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It is Shaun
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Sorry ..............what was the original post about....got lost in all the hoohaa!
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Think it was somthing to do with Dynamall ! Lol
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I thought it was about dynamite and blowing peoples houses up..
??? ???
;D
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Mark
never heard of post vac ? Come and watch me do it in Dunamanagh in two weeks time mate
post vac Mark is merely vacuming after you have encaped, it was done as part of the job, the carpets only take a very short time to dry and I thought I would get better results with sebos
a buff pad is the one between white and brown although I am waiting to get some fibre plus pads when
CSUK get some more stock in
stuart
I though post vaccing took place at least 24 hrs later for the encap to work to its full potential !!
not That I believe a vac 24 hrs later is really essential as normal routine vac will suffice.
geoff
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Encapsulation on domestics, Surround products.
http://www.truckmountforums.com/threads/can-you-beat-this.54755/#post-716868
Nope not encapsulation, just asked, it was bonnet cleaned using encapsulation chemicals
"Hi Henry,
No that's not correct. These carpets where presrcubbed followed by a second step or passes with absorbant cotton bonnets. I have found you must absorb out soils for a better clean and to allow the encap to work properly and not be overwhelmed. You cant get ten pounds in a 5 pound bag. The polymers can only hold so much."
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So can I use Dynamall on domestics?
Still no wiser even though there 3 pages ;D
Original post mentioned me using a floormac, will be an Envirodri E40.
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try it and see.. ;D ;D
I use encap in domestics... but then I do things slightly differently than most on here anyway.. ;D ;D
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I do
whats best for any chosen carpet at the time . my aim is to leave the customer happy ,and me happy that I have done a good Job to the best of my abilities ,
I use Dynamall and badly stained and slightly soiled carpet and find its the best encap I have used smells great ,looks great on low profiles. is very expensive though
I use shockwave with hwe on all dirty carpets and it performs very well not quite as good aspowerburst but miles cheaper.
and on all others I use any ms available such as spm
As for do I believe all the dirt is encapsulated and vacuumed away , Do I chuff . but if it looks good smells good and doesn't resoil quickly and the customers happy.
I had a customer tell me " last bloke that came had one of those buffer things and I thought what a con man he will never clean that carpet with that".
he said" well when it was finished it looked great" , only reason I didn,t call him again is I lost his number , think he was from stocksbridge ;)
ps I did tell him who it was and his contact details
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Stuart
Dunna where?
What date might take you up on it.
Mark
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Mark
I thought you were a northern paddy ? I will be there from the 1st of may until the 5th
its not far from strabane I have a house on Toboe rd Dunamanah
do you know Quaywest in Derry ? Ive not long cleaned there carpets
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Stuart
You need to understand us paddys have a built in distance limiter. If its more than 30 miles it isnt worth seeing!!
Never been to Dunamana but know where Derry is. Those dates could suit. Which day in particular.
Cheers
Mark
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Mark
you will never get rich if you are not prepared to travel mate ! I do about 40,000 miles a year and that dosent take Ireland into account
stuart
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To answer the question. Yes and no.
It depends on the carpet, the soiling and circumstances and far less to do with the effectiveness of encap.
For instance, you clean granny flats on the 4th floor, they just need a freshen up and grannies dont like noise or tripping over hoses and you dont like spending half an hour to set up.
Next job is an eot where the smell of german shepherd hits you as soon as you walk in and there are greasy brown patches all around and your blinded by the glow from your black light. Are you going to encap that by choice?
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Wynne,
The answers will also be yes and no. For those that only ecap / LM you'll get a yes and for those with hwse you'll get a very emphatic 'NO!'
I'm dubious about using encap on domestic as we have a DF operator near us who, albeit unwittingly gives us jobs from his disaffected customers, most of whom cite rapid re-soiling and the re-appearance of stains. It's not that low moisture techniques won't work on domestic situations, it's that you've got to have the ability to deal with any soil conditions you come across and that means having a variety of systems at your disposal and be prepared to do whatever it takes to get them clean.
Simon
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Wynne,
The answers will also be yes and no. For those that only ecap / LM you'll get a yes and for those with hwse you'll get a very emphatic 'NO!'
I'm dubious about using encap on domestic as we have a DF operator near us who, albeit unwittingly gives us jobs from his disaffected customers, most of whom cite rapid re-soiling and the re-appearance of stains. It's not that low moisture techniques won't work on domestic situations, it's that you've got to have the ability to deal with any soil conditions you come across and that means having a variety of systems at your disposal and be prepared to do whatever it takes to get them clean.
Simon
Hi Simon did 2 domestics today used encap and where needed flushed with Liquid High Heat.
David
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I would say 75% of my work is comercial and that is all low moisture cleaning whether its with a pad or abonnet with a chemstractor and a Rotobrite machine although I am looking towards a cymax in the near future, but to be honest would not consider using the LM system for domestic work
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Can anyone who does use encap on domestics give me any advise, even on products other than Dynamall. Thanks
stevenbutler06@btinternet.com
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Unwittingly I think you have your answer there Steven, when I bought a dry fusion machine I solely used it for approximately a year on commercial and domestic carpet cleaning, selling the carpet clean was very easy (cleans and dries the carpet all in one) to gain customers but getting the results was the hard part I moved on to a truck mount I didn't want to go back portable IMO it's the best business decision I made regards returning customers.
Shaun
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Wynne,
The answers will also be yes and no. For those that only ecap / LM you'll get a yes and for those with hwse you'll get a very emphatic 'NO!'
I'm dubious about using encap on domestic as we have a DF operator near us who, albeit unwittingly gives us jobs from his disaffected customers, most of whom cite rapid re-soiling and the re-appearance of stains. It's not that low moisture techniques won't work on domestic situations, it's that you've got to have the ability to deal with any soil conditions you come across and that means having a variety of systems at your disposal and be prepared to do whatever it takes to get them clean.
Simon
This is my main concern with only having a LM system and a spotting machine, you either have to turn work away or doing your best knowing it's not the best if you had the right kit.
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What is the reason for you wanting to start using encap on domestics?
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Just researching at the minute. Obviously the benefit of fast dry times is a massive selling point to customers.
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A great forum for all things encap, all be it with a releasit bias, is
http://forum.excellent-supply.com/forum-2.html
Worth a look.
Mark
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Thanks Mark, will have a look.
Those who do encap domestics (regardless of using Dynamall) do you use rotaries or do any of you use CRB's?