Clean It Up

UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Ian101 on February 25, 2014, 05:07:54 pm

Title: Problem with battery or pump or controller ?? ??
Post by: Ian101 on February 25, 2014, 05:07:54 pm
Got a problem with the flow on one of my pumps ... 2 man system set up as follows

Pump 1 wired thru standard controller direct to van battery
Pump 2 wired thru split relay controller to leisure battery

Pump1 voltage shows 12.8 as does pump2 however when pumps are turned on to clean the voltage on pump1 drops to 11.6 on pump2 it drops to 12.6 or 12.7 so after a few minutes of work pump1 is flashing BATT and the flow unless engine is running is crap.

Seems to be a huge drop in voltage on pump1 ??

Van battery is 2 months old which I know don't mean its faulty.

Any ideas chaps ?
Title: Re: Problem with battery or pump or controller ?? ??
Post by: Don Kee on February 25, 2014, 05:13:26 pm
Same flow rates?

Wires and all connectors connected up ok?
Title: Re: Problem with battery or pump or controller ?? ??
Post by: Ian101 on February 25, 2014, 05:14:58 pm
Quote from: Don Kee on February 25, 2014, 05:13:26 pm
Same flow rates?

Wires and all connectors connected up ok?


yup same flow rates .......... connections seem ok as it does show a decent charge when engine running
Title: Re: Problem with battery or pump or controller ?? ??
Post by: Clever Forum Name on February 25, 2014, 05:26:20 pm
How do you know the battery aint faulty ???

We replaced a battery this year on our transit and it was dead in three days due a duff cell.

How old the battery is has nothing to do with it. It may have been on the shelf for ages before you bought it.

I would do a test on the battery if you can.
Title: Re: Problem with battery or pump or controller ?? ??
Post by: Ian101 on February 25, 2014, 06:01:14 pm
Quote from: Pure H20 Services on February 25, 2014, 05:26:20 pm
How do you know the battery aint faulty ???

We replaced a battery this year on our transit and it was dead in three days due a duff cell.

How old the battery is has nothing to do with it. It may have been on the shelf for ages before you bought it.

I would do a test on the battery if you can.

yup typed that wrong meant to say I realise it could be the battery even though its only 2 months old so not ruling that out even though it had a green light saying its ok whicg prob not to be relied upon
Title: Re: Problem with battery or pump or controller ?? ??
Post by: SherwoodCleaningSe on February 25, 2014, 11:51:56 pm
If the van battery has just been replaced maybe the alternator is now on its last brushes, especially with the system battery as well. Can't you connect both to the system battery and just leave the van battery for starting the van?

Simon.
Title: Re: Problem with battery or pump or controller ?? ??
Post by: Ian101 on February 26, 2014, 07:34:51 am
Quote from: SherwoodCleaningSe on February 25, 2014, 11:51:56 pm
If the van battery has just been replaced maybe the alternator is now on its last brushes, especially with the system battery as well. Can't you connect both to the system battery and just leave the van battery for starting the van?

Simon.

yup can run both from leisure battery but gonna swap pumps over at weekend to check if its one of those
Title: Re: Problem with battery or pump or controller ?? ??
Post by: Ian Sheppard on February 26, 2014, 11:41:29 am
Quote from: Ian101 on February 25, 2014, 05:07:54 pm
Got a problem with the flow on one of my pumps ... 2 man system set up as follows

Pump 1 wired thru standard controller direct to van battery
Pump 2 wired thru split relay controller to leisure battery

Pump1 voltage shows 12.8 as does pump2 however when pumps are turned on to clean the voltage on pump1 drops to 11.6 on pump2 it drops to 12.6 or 12.7 so after a few minutes of work pump1 is flashing BATT and the flow unless engine is running is crap.

Seems to be a huge drop in voltage on pump1 ??

Van battery is 2 months old which I know don't mean its faulty.

Any ideas chaps ?

Hi Ian
Ok so the two pumps are running from two separate batteries
Pump 1 Van battery
Pump 2 Leisure battery

1st It is worth mentioning that the way the batteries discharge and recharge is different. The Vehicle battery is designed to discharge a high current in a short burst, then recharge slowly from the alternator.
It is not unusual for  vehicle battery to show a sudden and rapid volt drop as this is what happens when you start the engine.
When you start the engine to boost pump 1 the Alternator is supplying the volts not the battery, I would expect that voltage on control 1 jumps to 13V give or take?
This means a vehicle battery is not best suited to long slow current draw associated with a wfp pump

Conversely a leisure battery is designed for long slow current draw. My suggestion is to connect pump one to the leisure battery. For a two pump system you probably want 110AH, the split relay will trickle charge as you drive between jobs.
Running tow pumps is going to draw around 8 amps an hour in current, So even taking 50% of the battery capacity with 110AH is likely to give you 6 - 7 hours working.

Have a look at this link Plus I would suggest looking at  the battery basics link to Progressive Dynamics
http://www.springltd.co/node/139
Title: Re: Problem with battery or pump or controller ?? ??
Post by: Spruce on February 26, 2014, 05:08:08 pm
If you swop them around them you should be able to identify if its the battery or not.

I would say a van battery not delivering enough power to run the pump definitely wouldn't have enough power to start the van.

Then find the good setup and interchange the pump with the faulty set. With a process of elimination you should be able to identify the faulty item.
Title: Re: Problem with battery or pump or controller ?? ??
Post by: Ian101 on February 26, 2014, 09:23:54 pm
Quote from: Ian Sheppard on February 26, 2014, 11:41:29 am
Quote from: Ian101 on February 25, 2014, 05:07:54 pm
Got a problem with the flow on one of my pumps ... 2 man system set up as follows

Pump 1 wired thru standard controller direct to van battery
Pump 2 wired thru split relay controller to leisure battery

Pump1 voltage shows 12.8 as does pump2 however when pumps are turned on to clean the voltage on pump1 drops to 11.6 on pump2 it drops to 12.6 or 12.7 so after a few minutes of work pump1 is flashing BATT and the flow unless engine is running is crap.

Seems to be a huge drop in voltage on pump1 ??

Van battery is 2 months old which I know don't mean its faulty.

Any ideas chaps ?

Hi Ian
Ok so the two pumps are running from two separate batteries
Pump 1 Van battery
Pump 2 Leisure battery

1st It is worth mentioning that the way the batteries discharge and recharge is different. The Vehicle battery is designed to discharge a high current in a short burst, then recharge slowly from the alternator.
It is not unusual for  vehicle battery to show a sudden and rapid volt drop as this is what happens when you start the engine.
When you start the engine to boost pump 1 the Alternator is supplying the volts not the battery, I would expect that voltage on control 1 jumps to 13V give or take?
This means a vehicle battery is not best suited to long slow current draw associated with a wfp pump

Conversely a leisure battery is designed for long slow current draw. My suggestion is to connect pump one to the leisure battery. For a two pump system you probably want 110AH, the split relay will trickle charge as you drive between jobs.
Running tow pumps is going to draw around 8 amps an hour in current, So even taking 50% of the battery capacity with 110AH is likely to give you 6 - 7 hours working.

Have a look at this link Plus I would suggest looking at  the battery basics link to Progressive Dynamics
http://www.springltd.co/node/139


thanks for the info ref the way the 2 batteries work ref current draw .... going to put both pumps back onto the leisure battery this weekend after checking that pump 1 aint faulty ... thanks again
Title: Re: Problem with battery or pump or controller ?? ??
Post by: Ian101 on February 26, 2014, 09:25:53 pm
Quote from: Spruce on February 26, 2014, 05:08:08 pm
If you swop them around them you should be able to identify if its the battery or not.

I would say a van battery not delivering enough power to run the pump definitely wouldn't have enough power to start the van.

Then find the good setup and interchange the pump with the faulty set. With a process of elimination you should be able to identify the faulty item.

cheers Spruce going to do some rewiring this weekend and as u say process of elimination make sure pump is ok then wire them both to leisure battery .... cant recall why one was wired to van battery directly in first place ??
Title: Re: Problem with battery or pump or controller ?? ??
Post by: Ian101 on March 06, 2014, 05:44:20 pm
Well rewired controllers both up to leisure battery and 4 days in all seems well ... even a whole day non stop  without moving van and the leisure battery coped.

Thanks for advice  :)
Title: Re: Problem with battery or pump or controller ?? ??
Post by: David lingard on March 06, 2014, 05:55:33 pm
I have a similar setup, 110ah leisure battery supplying 2 pumps. I did have a split relay charger going but I didn't trust it as I didn't think that it would have enough time to do its job with all the start stop...

Now I have 2 batteries and alternate charging them daily on a charger that maintains when at 100% at home.

I must say the second battery is only a 70ah and I have never even come close to discharging it (and its smaller and has a nice handle :) - and cost only £50 compared to over £100 for the 110ah one)
Title: Re: Problem with battery or pump or controller ?? ??
Post by: Ian101 on March 06, 2014, 06:08:42 pm
Quote from: David lingard on March 06, 2014, 05:55:33 pm
I have a similar setup, 110ah leisure battery supplying 2 pumps. I did have a split relay charger going but I didn't trust it as I didn't think that it would have enough time to do its job with all the start stop...

Now I have 2 batteries and alternate charging them daily on a charger that maintains when at 100% at home.

I must say the second battery is only a 70ah and I have never even come close to discharging it (and its smaller and has a nice handle :) - and cost only £50 compared to over £100 for the 110ah one)

yup mines 70ah but will go to 110 when this one expires