Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: MisterC on January 30, 2014, 08:12:13 pm
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I am a newbie to this game and am after any advice about
Flow rate settings to a water fed pole. I have read that about
1 litre per minute is correct but this does not seem a lot to me.
However I also read that a common mistake for newbies is to
Have to much pressure and the water splashes off the window
onto the area above where your rinsing to leave marks.
Any advice appreciated.
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I am a newbie to this game and am after any advice about
Flow rate settings to a water fed pole. I have read that about
1 litre per minute is correct but this does not seem a lot to me.
However I also read that a common mistake for newbies is to
Have to much pressure and the water splashes off the window
onto the area above where your rinsing to leave marks.
Any advice appreciated.
not sure what controller you have but mine when you increase the caliber tigon that is pressure, flow rate is the amount of flow,hope that makes sense
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Thanks Colin. It is the flow rate I need help with
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My understanding is that pressure at the brush head in any system is governed by the the various components...
Smaller bore pipework, smaller jet nozzles etc. will give an increase in pressure.
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i use a high flow rate all the time unless im cleaning church windows or very old leaded windows that leak a bit.i work faster and the finish is usually better! ;)
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Are you vanmount or backpack etc
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It is a Brodex van mount
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1L a min sounds really low?
On my backpack i was using 2.1L a min.
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Just go with a high flow on a van mount.You can gradually lower it to save water and overspray etc.
I rinse with brush on glass which helps to contain water and keep away from top frames.
Dont know what lpm I use just what feels write over time.
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I am trying out 3mm jets tomorrow just to see how they perform :)
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Thanks for all the advice. Sounds like I need to
Experiment with increased flow rate
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Remember that flow and pressure and two different things.
You could but a 100psi pump, or a 30 psi pump and both can have the same flow rate.
Just means one will be better suited to working at heights.
Let us know how the 3mm jets are H2o!
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I am trying out 3mm jets tomorrow just to see how they perform :)
Surely it will be like rinsing with a watering can your flow rate will need to be right up in order for the water to flow at the right rate for a good rinse .
1mm jets all the way high pressure rinse works faster i currently have my flow controller set at 30 using cold water , then its at 23 in the warmer weather . Mike
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I am trying out 3mm jets tomorrow just to see how they perform :)
Surely it will be like rinsing with a watering can your flow rate will need to be right up in order for the water to flow at the right rate for a good rinse .
1mm jets all the way high pressure rinse works faster i currently have my flow controller set at 30 using cold water , then its at 23 in the warmer weather . Mike
Who knows, Its gonna cost £4 to try it out. I experiment with lots of WC ideas. I only have a few big houses to do today so i can mess about and it wont cost me money. Only time.
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After using 1mm jets for a few years , I had to use a brush with 2mm jets for 20 mins and it was a nightmare , Personally i prefer smaller jets . Mike
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My understanding is that pressure at the brush head in any system is governed by the the various components...
Smaller bore pipework, smaller jet nozzles etc. will give an increase in pressure.
Flow rate is a personal thing, In an ideal you are aiming to use the minimum amount of water required for each job This may in some case be on 1LTR a a min or higher. Generally a higher flow rate during the rinse will give a better finish.
The ability to alter the flow rate can be useful. But as the above comment to a point the flow rate is governed by the restrictions you place in the system, these restrictions also increase the velocity of the water creating the fine a jet that bounces.
Getting the balance is a matter of trial and error, Your system does give you the ability to control the pump and pressure created.
This article may help http://www.springltd.co/node/137
Also have a look at windowcleaningmagazine.co.uk as it contains a number of good articles written by guys in the industry
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This is a perfectly timed thread for me as this morning I went and WFPd my first windows - my own haha, although I'm in a downstairs flat and found cleaning the door a bit of a bugger - top half fine, middle bit pole at 90 degrees, bottom and sill pole is nearly upside down, I don't think this is right but I don't want to trad the downstairs anymore!
Anyway I set the flow rate to 35 to start with and it did seem a little slow but I'm just having a cuppa and some lunch to see what the results are like before going out to a couple of good customers to use as guinea pigs and will do theirs on a 40 rate I think.
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2L a minute measured with the brush head at waist height is right for us.
If in a hurry might increase it to 3L.
Remember that if you increase flow from 1L/min to 2L/min it may save you water. 1L/min and I would be rinsing forever. 2L and it sheets easily so much, much quicker. I reckon I would be more than twice as fast with 2L/min than 1L/min so using less water overall.
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The flow of the water at high pressure has only one neg thing its splashes if rinsing off the glass.Which I do not do.I personally use 7 lit a min and the reason you need more water when floating dirt of the glass. What I loose in water I gain in time spent on each job.I have plenty water and can easy refill but need more hours in some days.
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At 35 the flow is 0.4L per minute. The AutoCal on the pump went to 49 but that's only about 0.65L per minute - yes I'm out filling jugs and timing it!
It looks like I might have to go up to about 70 on the pump, does this mean it's operating at 70% capacity? Seems very high and the pump will burn out quicker, not to mention use up the van battery quicker in the process. What are others pump flow rates set at? Will winding the hose onto the reel too tightly affect the flow rate? I'm not saying mine is excessively tight but would winding it on more loosely help?
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I don't suppose there's a Window Cleaning Best Flow Rate guide out there?
I can almost get 1L per minute with pump at 65, and if maximum is 100 I'm not going to be getting 7L a minute at all! This is with the pole horizontal at waste height.
I have a E-Chen EC-RV-05L water pump - http://www.e-chen.com.cn/En_ArticleShow.asp?ArticleID=441
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I use a Vyair 5.4ltr per min pump on full, no controller.
the pressure switches only last about 12 months but heho they are only a tenner to replace
I take two car batteries with me fully charged each day.
I recycle my batteries every 4 or 5 months and pay a tenner each time at the scrappies
I work like lightning, so am easily able to compete with the local two man per van setups, or backpack users locally.
My round is solid, rarely any complaints so have I hit perfection?
Not yet, getting a bigger van and a 500 or 650 Ltr tank later this year, which will streamline my business even further.
Motto:-
STOP MESSIN ABOUT AND GET THE FLOW UP ;D
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I am trying out 3mm jets tomorrow just to see how they perform :)
Surely it will be like rinsing with a watering can your flow rate will need to be right up in order for the water to flow at the right rate for a good rinse .
1mm jets all the way high pressure rinse works faster i currently have my flow controller set at 30 using cold water , then its at 23 in the warmer weather . Mike
I use 3mm jets. Much better IMO, allows me to work with a decent flow rate which I find quicker. Smaller jets give too much splashback.
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I couldnt get the flow to work today with 3mm jets.
I ended up with flat out pump on my controller and yes it looked like a watering can effect.
TBH i was cleaning quicker and rinsing quicker, but it wasnt for me.
I would be interested now in have 4 x 1mm jets or 3 x 2mm jets.
So off to the drawing board again
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I don't suppose there's a Window Cleaning Best Flow Rate guide out there?
I can almost get 1L per minute with pump at 65, and if maximum is 100 I'm not going to be getting 7L a minute at all! This is with the pole horizontal at waste height.
I have a E-Chen EC-RV-05L water pump - http://www.e-chen.com.cn/En_ArticleShow.asp?ArticleID=441
7 ltr per min is the maximum pumping capacity with no restriction as soon as hose, connectors jets ect are added the ltr per min rate will fall a little.
The flow rate shown on the control is not an exact indication of Ltr per min, It is a guide set on 65 Your pump is running just over 50% capacity however the amount of water at the brush will be effected by restrictions and gravity.
to get an accurate Ltr per min rate time how long it take to fill a one litre jug at various floe rates. I suspect you are getting more than 1 ltr per min at 65.
Air in the system and blocked pre filters will reduce the actual flow to the brush head. As my other post Battery condition and cable condition will also have an impact on flow, If the battery is a bit low or the cables are damaged the pump can struggle for power, Also worth checking the fuse and fuse holder connections.
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Don't understand why people think a higher flow rate makes you quicker most if not all of the dirt
is removed in the scrub.
My speed is in how quickly I can scrub the dirt from the glass, which comes down to a good brush and
not a high flow rate.
Your could spend all day rinsing a window and not cover all of it.
Since starting I have cut my flow rate in half and doubled my speed.
I'm now dash with less splash.
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Using 1mm jets does not create splash back at the correct setting just like other size jets , The water from my jets reaches about 3ft from the brush . Which gives me a really good flow rate without worrying about water usage so much
Using a 400ltr tank i have about 100ltrs left in tank after a full days work . Mike
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Thanks guys - I'm brand new to WFP (7 years trad) so I'm learning from scratch about the various components in the WFP system, and the optimum settings for them all.
Everything is brand new. I'm just conscious that the higher the cal and flow rate, the quicker my pump will burn out, and I don't think that's something I can replace myself.
Think my jets are 2mm. The standard Gardiner ones that come with the brushes anyway. Practicing on my door today it looked good (rinsing took aaaaaaaaaages hence the slight obsession with flow rates!), the small kitchen windows not so much, but it seems the sill brushes are a little soft and I'll need a flocked brush to get the hard dirt off - presumably this is recommended for the first time I clean all the houses on my round anyway?
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Any brush will clean the window.
Your pump should last years,think there made to run flat out if needed.
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Just clean windows mate,no point in imagining problems,be positive and and it will be fine.
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Any brush will clean the window.
Your pump should last years,think there made to run flat out if needed.
A neighbour of mine does something clever with ships and their fresh water systems and knows all about industrial scale ROs and diaphragm pumps (like the shurflo).
He tells me they're designed to be worked hard.
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Everything is brand new. I'm just conscious that the higher the cal and flow rate, the quicker my pump will burn out, and I don't think that's something I can replace myself.
All you need to do is attach a new pump in exactly the same way your old pump is set up. Take a photo of it with your phone, remove the old one, insert the new one and connect it up. Use the phone picture as a reference if you need.
It's not difficult.
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Thanks guys - I'm brand new to WFP (7 years trad) so I'm learning from scratch about the various components in the WFP system, and the optimum settings for them all.
Everything is brand new. I'm just conscious that the higher the cal and flow rate, the quicker my pump will burn out, and I don't think that's something I can replace myself.
Think my jets are 2mm. The standard Gardiner ones that come with the brushes anyway. Practicing on my door today it looked good (rinsing took aaaaaaaaaages hence the slight obsession with flow rates!), the small kitchen windows not so much, but it seems the sill brushes are a little soft and I'll need a flocked brush to get the hard dirt off - presumably this is recommended for the first time I clean all the houses on my round anyway?
Just out off interest how high is your CAL , Now every set up can be different but my CAL is 27 and my flow rate is set at 30 , Typically your CAL should always be lower than your flow rate , Someone correct me if i am wrong . Mike
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My understanding is that pressure at the brush head in any system is governed by the the various components...
Smaller bore pipework, smaller jet nozzles etc. will give an increase in pressure.
Flow rate is a personal thing, In an ideal you are aiming to use the minimum amount of water required for each job This may in some case be on 1LTR a a min or higher. Generally a higher flow rate during the rinse will give a better finish.
The ability to alter the flow rate can be useful. But as the above comment to a point the flow rate is governed by the restrictions you place in the system, these restrictions also increase the velocity of the water creating the fine a jet that bounces.
Getting the balance is a matter of trial and error, Your system does give you the ability to control the pump and pressure created.
This article may help http://www.springltd.co/node/137
Also have a look at windowcleaningmagazine.co.uk as it contains a number of good articles written by guys in the industry
Nice article Ian a good read i do agree with some points raised , For instance when their is that tiny black grit on glass after stormy weather it can take 2-3 passes over the glass with my 1mm jets to ensure this is rinsed off .
A larger jet with a higher flow of water may mean i only have to pass over glass once , But this is not every house so for me i will always stick with 1mm pencil jets and me new Xtreme flocked hybrid brush . Mike
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I couldnt get the flow to work today with 3mm jets.
I ended up with flat out pump on my controller and yes it looked like a watering can effect.
TBH i was cleaning quicker and rinsing quicker, but it wasnt for me.
I would be interested now in have 4 x 1mm jets or 3 x 2mm jets.
So off to the drawing board again
4 1mm jets sounds like a good idea!
Especially now that the gardiners brushes have four pre drilled holes.
Think I know what I'll be doing over the weekend. :)
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I am trying out 3mm jets tomorrow just to see how they perform :)
and how did you find them yesterday?
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I am trying out 3mm jets tomorrow just to see how they perform :)
and how did you find them yesterday?
I couldnt get the flow to work today with 3mm jets.
I ended up with flat out pump on my controller and yes it looked like a watering can effect.
TBH i was cleaning quicker and rinsing quicker, but it wasnt for me.
I would be interested now in have 4 x 1mm jets or 3 x 2mm jets.
So off to the drawing board again
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I couldnt get the flow to work today with 3mm jets.
I ended up with flat out pump on my controller and yes it looked like a watering can effect.
TBH i was cleaning quicker and rinsing quicker, but it wasnt for me.
I would be interested now in have 4 x 1mm jets or 3 x 2mm jets.
So off to the drawing board again
4 1mm jets sounds like a good idea!
Especially now that the gardiners brushes have four pre drilled holes.
Think I know what I'll be doing over the weekend. :)
I have tried 1mm jets and wasnt keen on them. But four would be the same as 2x 2mm technically. I think 3 x 2mm jets will be the winner tho. As with 1mm i think splash back will be more.
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This is a perfectly timed thread for me as this morning I went and WFPd my first windows - my own haha, although I'm in a downstairs flat and found cleaning the door a bit of a bugger - top half fine, middle bit pole at 90 degrees, bottom and sill pole is nearly upside down, I don't think this is right but I don't want to trad the downstairs anymore!
Anyway I set the flow rate to 35 to start with and it did seem a little slow but I'm just having a cuppa and some lunch to see what the results are like before going out to a couple of good customers to use as guinea pigs and will do theirs on a 40 rate I think.
This is the way we clean the lower half of the door - brush head down, base up. It just seems a little awkward until you get used to it.
We always raise the door hand automatically to pull the door into the seal, but we sometimes still get leaks, mainly because the escape holes in the lower door channel are blocked with dirt.
There are a couple of doors we do only by hand. One of them is an old wooden front door without a lower weatherboard moulding.
We also find that when water leaks past the door seal into the lower drip channel, it drains out onto the sill you have just washed. We usually do doors first, then all the windows. We dry the doors but leave the windows wet and wipe the door and lower window cills with a cloth just before we leave.
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I don't suppose there's a Window Cleaning Best Flow Rate guide out there?
I can almost get 1L per minute with pump at 65, and if maximum is 100 I'm not going to be getting 7L a minute at all! This is with the pole horizontal at waste height.
I have a E-Chen EC-RV-05L water pump - http://www.e-chen.com.cn/En_ArticleShow.asp?ArticleID=441
You will never get 7 LPM as your pump is only rated at 5 LPM. The rating of a pump is down without the restriction of any hose attached. Putting the water through 100 meters of coiled hose will reduce that output dramatically, as will the temperature of the water.
I found the best flow rate was 1.5 litres a minute for optimal water saving, but time was wasted rinsing each window. I like a high flow as rinsing is much quicker, but I tend to waste water during the washing/scrubbing phase.
It was once reasoned that if it takes you a litre of water to wash a window, then working with a flow of 1 LPM will take you 1 minute to clean it. If you turned your flow up to 2 LPM then it would take you 30 secs to clean that window. This makes a lot of sense to me. But if you extend that line of reasoning to 7 LPM then it will take you less than 9 secs to clean that window, which I don't think is feasibly possible to clean it properly.
The other thing is that I don't think its possible to push 7 LPM of water through 2 x 2 mm jets using our water pressures, but that's based on pure conjecture on my part. If you could then the jets of water would be uncontrollable with spray bringing dirt down from everywhere above where you have cleaned.
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I am trying out 3mm jets tomorrow just to see how they perform :)
and how did you find them yesterday?
Sorry, I asked before I saw your post. Apologies. The moderators on a TV forum I visit would have given me a warning for doing that. I keep thinking I may dig out my old brush with 3mm jets, but I never have done.
I think 3mm jets are twice the capacity size that 2mm ones are, so you would need to double your flow. I think, as was our early days experience, that you will waste more water.
In the early days before controllers and 2mm jets I would get though 475 litres a day by about 3 oclock. On the same section I could do the same houses using less than 375 litres of water and still have the 4 drums left to clean more houses with a flow controller and smaller jets.
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I couldnt get the flow to work today with 3mm jets.
I ended up with flat out pump on my controller and yes it looked like a watering can effect.
TBH i was cleaning quicker and rinsing quicker, but it wasnt for me.
I would be interested now in have 4 x 1mm jets or 3 x 2mm jets.
So off to the drawing board again
4 1mm jets sounds like a good idea!
Especially now that the gardiners brushes have four pre drilled holes.
Think I know what I'll be doing over the weekend. :)
I have tried 1mm jets and wasnt keen on them. But four would be the same as 2x 2mm technically. I think 3 x 2mm jets will be the winner tho. As with 1mm i think splash back will be more.
I think I remember Alex saying that 1.4mm is half the size of 2mm jets, so 4 x 1mm jets will use less water than 2 x 2mm ones will.
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No worries spruce lol, dont bother me.
I think for commercial and certain glass typres yeah it could be great.
Water is quite a small expense.
I had my flow flat out on friday as it didnt matter as was only only doing 6 houses to finish the week.
I used 3mm jets for three houses and 2mm jets for three houses.
Probably used a GOOD 100 L more of water, but when i saw the time i finished i was shocked!
I understand a high flow rate doesnt make the cleaning much quicker, its just the rinsing. The quicker you can rinse a window the better.
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I couldnt get the flow to work today with 3mm jets.
I ended up with flat out pump on my controller and yes it looked like a watering can effect.
TBH i was cleaning quicker and rinsing quicker, but it wasnt for me.
I would be interested now in have 4 x 1mm jets or 3 x 2mm jets.
So off to the drawing board again
4 1mm jets sounds like a good idea!
Especially now that the gardiners brushes have four pre drilled holes.
Think I know what I'll be doing over the weekend. :)
I have tried 1mm jets and wasnt keen on them. But four would be the same as 2x 2mm technically. I think 3 x 2mm jets will be the winner tho. As with 1mm i think splash back will be more.
I think I remember Alex saying that 1.4mm is half the size of 2mm jets, so 4 x 1mm jets will use less water than 2 x 2mm ones will.
ah ok cool. Going to rig up 3 x 2mm jets and see what happens. I wont actually install them into the brush. Just use a t piece to see what happens :)
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No worries spruce lol, dont bother me.
I think for commercial and certain glass typres yeah it could be great.
Water is quite a small expense.
I had my flow flat out on friday as it didnt matter as was only only doing 6 houses to finish the week.
I used 3mm jets for three houses and 2mm jets for three houses.
Probably used a GOOD 100 L more of water, but when i saw the time i finished i was shocked!
I understand a high flow rate doesnt make the cleaning much quicker, its just the rinsing. The quicker you can rinse a window the better.
My son prefers to use a backpack and is used to a low water flow. It takes him ages to wash and rinse but his slower cleaning time is compensated by his reduced setup and hose management time. (This works fine for residental but becomes painfully slower on commercial where he has a run of windows.)
I watch him give the glass a quick wet, then he switches his flow off, scrubbs the window and then rinses. You could employ the same principle. Ideally, I would like a 2 speed system, a slow flow for washing and scrubbing and a fast flow for rinsing as this would be the best of both worlds.
Peter Fogwill recons his Aquatap is easy to reduce the flow and speed it up for rinsing with a small turn of the pole, where our Aquadaptors are not suited to that type of control.
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I used a backpack and trolley for 3 years. With a mounted hose reel. Trolley was made of alu and was so easy to work from.
My round is very compact. Typical day is 3 streets in one village then home.
Thursday i never left one road, i parked the van in the middle and did 9 houses off the hose and never went back to the van once.
What your son does is what i used todo, but going hot soon so thats why i went van mounted.
I have just tried 3 x 2mm jets and tbh was very very impressed!
I have not had enough time to do it, but i will be making a sill brush with 3 jets.
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The flow of the water at high pressure has only one neg thing its splashes if rinsing off the glass.Which I do not do.I personally use 7 lit a min and the reason you need more water when floating dirt of the glass. What I loose in water I gain in time spent on each job.I have plenty water and can easy refill but need more hours in some days.
Not going to contribute again on CIU eh Smithie?
Thank all to all you nice gentlemen for your kind words.But there is no need i have developed a thick skin on here. I am sorry that I defended my self when I was taken the ppp of and spoke out when I was verbally attacked. I also am sorry that I cannot put my story forward in an except fable fashion and that my motives are so construed. I obviously do things in a way that offend so many of you. This is not done intentionally I am just as baffled as you are at the response I raise, but its not really my intention. I think it would be best for me and you that I keep my thoughts to my self as they have no value to any on here, if they create such drama. I will not be contributing to this forum is future but will only read as the large majority do. So I will NOT be closing my account. I am sure this post will attract another avalanche of bile. Heart moving etc. But so be it.
P.S Thanks to the few chaps like Spruce that really did understand and even defended me at times and were I am coming from.
::)roll Welcome back again Smithie
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The flow of the water at high pressure has only one neg thing its splashes if rinsing off the glass.Which I do not do.I personally use 7 lit a min and the reason you need more water when floating dirt of the glass. What I loose in water I gain in time spent on each job.I have plenty water and can easy refill but need more hours in some days.
Not going to contribute again on CIU eh Smithie?
Thank all to all you nice gentlemen for your kind words.But there is no need i have developed a thick skin on here. I am sorry that I defended my self when I was taken the ppp of and spoke out when I was verbally attacked. I also am sorry that I cannot put my story forward in an except fable fashion and that my motives are so construed. I obviously do things in a way that offend so many of you. This is not done intentionally I am just as baffled as you are at the response I raise, but its not really my intention. I think it would be best for me and you that I keep my thoughts to my self as they have no value to any on here, if they create such drama. I will not be contributing to this forum is future but will only read as the large majority do. So I will NOT be closing my account. I am sure this post will attract another avalanche of bile. Heart moving etc. But so be it.
P.S Thanks to the few chaps like Spruce that really did understand and even defended me at times and were I am coming from.
::)roll Welcome back again Smithie
Well spotted Cozy
He has posted under Smithie in the last few days.
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I used a backpack and trolley for 3 years. With a mounted hose reel. Trolley was made of alu and was so easy to work from.
My round is very compact. Typical day is 3 streets in one village then home.
Thursday i never left one road, i parked the van in the middle and did 9 houses off the hose and never went back to the van once.
What your son does is what i used todo, but going hot soon so thats why i went van mounted.
I have just tried 3 x 2mm jets and tbh was very very impressed!
I have not had enough time to do it, but i will be making a sill brush with 3 jets.
Where do you put the third jet?
I would have thought you need an even number, unless you put the third jet smack in the middle of the brush?
I'd need to take a section of bristles out and drill a hole to do that.
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I used a backpack and trolley for 3 years. With a mounted hose reel. Trolley was made of alu and was so easy to work from.
My round is very compact. Typical day is 3 streets in one village then home.
Thursday i never left one road, i parked the van in the middle and did 9 houses off the hose and never went back to the van once.
What your son does is what i used todo, but going hot soon so thats why i went van mounted.
I have just tried 3 x 2mm jets and tbh was very very impressed!
I have not had enough time to do it, but i will be making a sill brush with 3 jets.
Where do you put the third jet?
I would have thought you need an even number, unless you put the third jet smack in the middle of the brush?
I'd need to take a section of bristles out and drill a hole to do that.
Yeah that's exactly what i did. I will be doing it soon, as i was very impressed. At my house i have lots of different glass types and 3 jets deffo made it easier.
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My understanding is that pressure at the brush head in any system is governed by the the various components...
Smaller bore pipework, smaller jet nozzles etc. will give an increase in pressure.
Flow rate is a personal thing, In an ideal you are aiming to use the minimum amount of water required for each job This may in some case be on 1LTR a a min or higher. Generally a higher flow rate during the rinse will give a better finish.
The ability to alter the flow rate can be useful. But as the above comment to a point the flow rate is governed by the restrictions you place in the system, these restrictions also increase the velocity of the water creating the fine a jet that bounces.
Getting the balance is a matter of trial and error, Your system does give you the ability to control the pump and pressure created.
This article may help http://www.springltd.co/node/137
Also have a look at windowcleaningmagazine.co.uk as it contains a number of good articles written by guys in the industry
Nice article Ian a good read i do agree with some points raised , For instance when their is that tiny black grit on glass after stormy weather it can take 2-3 passes over the glass with my 1mm jets to ensure this is rinsed off .
A larger jet with a higher flow of water may mean i only have to pass over glass once , But this is not every house so for me i will always stick with 1mm pencil jets and me new Xtreme flocked hybrid brush . Mike
Thank you for the comment Mike the article is aimed at getting people thinking about what works best for them. The forum is a great place for diverse views and sharing experience.
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I don't suppose there's a Window Cleaning Best Flow Rate guide out there?
I can almost get 1L per minute with pump at 65, and if maximum is 100 I'm not going to be getting 7L a minute at all! This is with the pole horizontal at waste height.
I have a E-Chen EC-RV-05L water pump - http://www.e-chen.com.cn/En_ArticleShow.asp?ArticleID=441
You will never get 7 LPM as your pump is only rated at 5 LPM. The rating of a pump is down without the restriction of any hose attached. Putting the water through 100 meters of coiled hose will reduce that output dramatically, as will the temperature of the water.
I found the best flow rate was 1.5 litres a minute for optimal water saving, but time was wasted rinsing each window. I like a high flow as rinsing is much quicker, but I tend to waste water during the washing/scrubbing phase.
It was once reasoned that if it takes you a litre of water to wash a window, then working with a flow of 1 LPM will take you 1 minute to clean it. If you turned your flow up to 2 LPM then it would take you 30 secs to clean that window. This makes a lot of sense to me. But if you extend that line of reasoning to 7 LPM then it will take you less than 9 secs to clean that window, which I don't think is feasibly possible to clean it properly.
The other thing is that I don't think its possible to push 7 LPM of water through 2 x 2 mm jets using our water pressures, but that's based on pure conjecture on my part. If you could then the jets of water would be uncontrollable with spray bringing dirt down from everywhere above where you have cleaned.
Interesting. I thought I read somewhere that an uncoiled hose is more able to expand which would decrease the flow rate? Obviously 60m of hose would be better, which I'm tempted to get and just use the 100m on days when I would really need that much hose - would 8mm or 6mm give a faster flow rate? 8mm would be heavier, but would 60m of 8mm be lighter or heavier than 100m of 6mm? !!
I could partially close the hose pipe tap to lower the rate whilst scrubbing, then open it up fully for rinsing, but then wouldn't that increase the restriction within the system, which would then cause the pump to effectively work harder? Not to mention increasing the wear on the small hose pipe tap - probably not worth it, but then I've read a fair bit about windies pinching the pole hose between windows to cut the water, which would either create a brief DE cutting the pump, or greatly increase the restriction, making the pump work harder to push the water out.
Sadly I'm a natural perfectionist, great for interviews, not so much for window cleaning as I probably spend way too long faffing around on the windows instead of quickly moving on to the next, which is why it's a bit nervy not being able to see close up what I'm doing on the upstairs windows!
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Just checked my flow rate.
100m of 8mm hose then standard pole hose on a 25 foot pole. 2 x 3mm jets (supplied and fitted by Gardiners) and I get approx 2.5 litres/minute.
I use a simple dial controller (similar to the one Polarbrite sell) which goes from 0-6 and it is set just under 2.
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I did an AutoCal today and it went to 35 (first one last week went to 49!) so what's the difference between having the Cal at 35 and flow rate at 70, and a Cal at 50 and flow rate at 70?
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I did an AutoCal today and it went to 35 (first one last week went to 49!) so what's the difference between having the Cal at 35 and flow rate at 70, and a Cal at 50 and flow rate at 70?
Remember when running cal the control is looking at the base operating pressure in your system when running. The pressure in the system will vary slightly even on a day to day basis, This pressure change can be down to how much hose is off the reel when you calibrate or even the temperature, Lower temps can mean the hose expansion can be faster of slower. This effects the pressure and the control is sensitive enough to adjust to these small differences.
To answer you question above the only noticeable difference you might see is that the pump will take slightly longer to dead end if the cal is 50 with flow at 70 than cal at 35 and flow 70. That said the difference is probably 1/2 a second or so. Although the control is sensitive to these small changes it is unlikely you will notice an effect on the flow or the pump stopping.
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OK thanks Ian. I'll lower the cal then but keep the flow high as all my work will technically be first cleans for the next couple of months and will all need a good soaking and rinsing.
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Your welcome it appears your system is happy between 35 - 50 Cal setting as long as you get the flow you need thats fine. You may find that when temps fall cal will need tweaking.
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I don't suppose there's a Window Cleaning Best Flow Rate guide out there?
I can almost get 1L per minute with pump at 65, and if maximum is 100 I'm not going to be getting 7L a minute at all! This is with the pole horizontal at waste height.
I have a E-Chen EC-RV-05L water pump - http://www.e-chen.com.cn/En_ArticleShow.asp?ArticleID=441
You will never get 7 LPM as your pump is only rated at 5 LPM. The rating of a pump is down without the restriction of any hose attached. Putting the water through 100 meters of coiled hose will reduce that output dramatically, as will the temperature of the water.
I found the best flow rate was 1.5 litres a minute for optimal water saving, but time was wasted rinsing each window. I like a high flow as rinsing is much quicker, but I tend to waste water during the washing/scrubbing phase.
It was once reasoned that if it takes you a litre of water to wash a window, then working with a flow of 1 LPM will take you 1 minute to clean it. If you turned your flow up to 2 LPM then it would take you 30 secs to clean that window. This makes a lot of sense to me. But if you extend that line of reasoning to 7 LPM then it will take you less than 9 secs to clean that window, which I don't think is feasibly possible to clean it properly.
The other thing is that I don't think its possible to push 7 LPM of water through 2 x 2 mm jets using our water pressures, but that's based on pure conjecture on my part. If you could then the jets of water would be uncontrollable with spray bringing dirt down from everywhere above where you have cleaned.
Interesting. I thought I read somewhere that an uncoiled hose is more able to expand which would decrease the flow rate? Obviously 60m of hose would be better, which I'm tempted to get and just use the 100m on days when I would really need that much hose - would 8mm or 6mm give a faster flow rate? 8mm would be heavier, but would 60m of 8mm be lighter or heavier than 100m of 6mm? !!
I could partially close the hose pipe tap to lower the rate whilst scrubbing, then open it up fully for rinsing, but then wouldn't that increase the restriction within the system, which would then cause the pump to effectively work harder? Not to mention increasing the wear on the small hose pipe tap - probably not worth it, but then I've read a fair bit about windies pinching the pole hose between windows to cut the water, which would either create a brief DE cutting the pump, or greatly increase the restriction, making the pump work harder to push the water out.
Sadly I'm a natural perfectionist, great for interviews, not so much for window cleaning as I probably spend way too long faffing around on the windows instead of quickly moving on to the next, which is why it's a bit nervy not being able to see close up what I'm doing on the upstairs windows!
The problem of flow rate is due to the friction of water around the edges of the hose pipe. This friction increases if the inside wall of the pipe isn't total smooth. Due to this friction the water in the centre of the pipe flows fastest and water running along the edges travels slower. Once you coil the hose up, you create even more friction as the water is forced to the sides of the hose as it is forced around the coil.
We notice a big difference on one job we have where we unroll the whole 100 meters of hose. The water flows much better at the brush head. Half way through the job we roll about 2/3rd of the hose back onto the hose reel. The flow difference at the brush head is quite noticeable. So water is more easily able to travel down a straight hose than a coiled one. Water temperature also plays a big part in this as well.
Over Christmas I set up a diesel heater onto a test bench to heat my window cleaning water. The pole I use was lying in the driveway with the brush head pointing to the road. The water temperature in van's tank was 9 degrees C and the Varistream was running on a setting of 5 (just about 2 LPM). The water coming out of the brush jets didn't reach the end of the driveway. I slowly raised the outgoing water temperature. The hose was still fully coiled up on the hose reel. By the time the water reached 35 degrees at the brush head, the water reached across the road. I found that I could turn the flow down to 3 and it was the same as 5 using cold water.
I would expect the users of hot water with gas powered units have noticed the same thing. I certainly know that they have to reduce the pressure settings on their controllers.
In the early days of WFP Williamson Pumps refused to guarantee any Shurflo pump that was used on hose less than 1/2". This was when smaller microbore and minbore hose was in its infancy. A pump is forced to work harder the smaller the pipe's inside diameter. They knew that and us users carried the risk. So your pump is going to have to drive the water much faster through the centre of microbore hose and overcome greater friction than if 1/2" hose was being used.
We have never experienced an issue with any Shurflo pump so I don't know what their guarantee is now on their pumps TBH.
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I don't suppose there's a Window Cleaning Best Flow Rate guide out there?
I can almost get 1L per minute with pump at 65, and if maximum is 100 I'm not going to be getting 7L a minute at all! This is with the pole horizontal at waste height.
I have a E-Chen EC-RV-05L water pump - http://www.e-chen.com.cn/En_ArticleShow.asp?ArticleID=441
You will never get 7 LPM as your pump is only rated at 5 LPM. The rating of a pump is down without the restriction of any hose attached. Putting the water through 100 meters of coiled hose will reduce that output dramatically, as will the temperature of the water.
I found the best flow rate was 1.5 litres a minute for optimal water saving, but time was wasted rinsing each window. I like a high flow as rinsing is much quicker, but I tend to waste water during the washing/scrubbing phase.
It was once reasoned that if it takes you a litre of water to wash a window, then working with a flow of 1 LPM will take you 1 minute to clean it. If you turned your flow up to 2 LPM then it would take you 30 secs to clean that window. This makes a lot of sense to me. But if you extend that line of reasoning to 7 LPM then it will take you less than 9 secs to clean that window, which I don't think is feasibly possible to clean it properly.
The other thing is that I don't think its possible to push 7 LPM of water through 2 x 2 mm jets using our water pressures, but that's based on pure conjecture on my part. If you could then the jets of water would be uncontrollable with spray bringing dirt down from everywhere above where you have cleaned.
Interesting. I thought I read somewhere that an uncoiled hose is more able to expand which would decrease the flow rate? Obviously 60m of hose would be better, which I'm tempted to get and just use the 100m on days when I would really need that much hose - would 8mm or 6mm give a faster flow rate? 8mm would be heavier, but would 60m of 8mm be lighter or heavier than 100m of 6mm? !!
I could partially close the hose pipe tap to lower the rate whilst scrubbing, then open it up fully for rinsing, but then wouldn't that increase the restriction within the system, which would then cause the pump to effectively work harder? Not to mention increasing the wear on the small hose pipe tap - probably not worth it, but then I've read a fair bit about windies pinching the pole hose between windows to cut the water, which would either create a brief DE cutting the pump, or greatly increase the restriction, making the pump work harder to push the water out.
Sadly I'm a natural perfectionist, great for interviews, not so much for window cleaning as I probably spend way too long faffing around on the windows instead of quickly moving on to the next, which is why it's a bit nervy not being able to see close up what I'm doing on the upstairs windows!
I'm answering this separately.
Most of us haven't the space in our vans to carry a variety of hose reels around to accomodate different jobs. Most of us have found that 100 meters of minibore/microbore is good for everything. If you need it longer then move the van.
I'm also inclined to over clean, but I can tell you from experience you waste time, water and money doing it. I know this is very new to you, so the 'smart money' tells us that you need 2 passes on each window pane, a quick rinse and onto the next window. Set yourself a a target time to wash and rinse an average window of 60 seconds. Count up a second at a time in your head as you do it. I will probably take you longer than a minute as you are doing first cleans, so start doing it after your second clean. If you take longer, make 60 secs your target. Once you have achieved that then reduce it to 50 seconds etc.
Son in law started wfp cleaning 2 years ago having done trad for many years. Yes he took over some of our round which was all wfp so he had no first cleans. He is so fast each window takes him less than 15 secs. But each window I've inspected after he has finished and moved on was perfect. We lost a couple of customers due to his speed. Not one of those customers convinced me that it was because the windows weren't cleaned properly.
We have a monthly commercial we do that which is done over a weekend when there isn't anyone around. Its great for experimenting on. There are a whole run of windows that are south facing so dry quickly. We have often used that run of windows to play around as we can go back over them and correct any issues. We tried one pass and rinse, a slower one pass and no rinse and scrubbed and rinsed like made. Once they had dried you couldn't tell the difference. But for us 2 passes and a good rinse is what we do.
Have a look at this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=re2CdgRbSsE
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Thank you Spruce, you've been a great help.
We notice a big difference on one job we have where we unroll the whole 100 meters of hose. The water flows much better at the brush head. Half way through the job we roll about 2/3rd of the hose back onto the hose reel. The flow difference at the brush head is quite noticeable. So water is more easily able to travel down a straight hose than a coiled one. Water temperature also plays a big part in this as well.
So in theory I should have a better flow rate round the back of the house than round the front as more hose is uncoiled then? Or I need to uncoil the right amount for the back before I even start the front!
I'm answering this separately.
Most of us haven't the space in our vans to carry a variety of hose reels around to accomodate different jobs. Most of us have found that 100 meters of minibore/microbore is good for everything. If you need it longer then move the van.
I'm also inclined to over clean, but I can tell you from experience you waste time, water and money doing it. I know this is very new to you, so the 'smart money' tells us that you need 2 passes on each window pane, a quick rinse and onto the next window. Set yourself a a target time to wash and rinse an average window of 60 seconds. Count up a second at a time in your head as you do it. I will probably take you longer than a minute as you are doing first cleans, so start doing it after your second clean. If you take longer, make 60 secs your target. Once you have achieved that then reduce it to 50 seconds etc.
Son in law started wfp cleaning 2 years ago having done trad for many years. Yes he took over some of our round which was all wfp so he had no first cleans. He is so fast each window takes him less than 15 secs. But each window I've inspected after he has finished and moved on was perfect. We lost a couple of customers due to his speed. Not one of those customers convinced me that it was because the windows weren't cleaned properly.
We have a monthly commercial we do that which is done over a weekend when there isn't anyone around. Its great for experimenting on. There are a whole run of windows that are south facing so dry quickly. We have often used that run of windows to play around as we can go back over them and correct any issues. We tried one pass and rinse, a slower one pass and no rinse and scrubbed and rinsed like made. Once they had dried you couldn't tell the difference. But for us 2 passes and a good rinse is what we do.
Have a look at this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=re2CdgRbSsE
I've watched a few of his videos recently, like this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuRIBzupHuM which has windows similar in size to those I deal with, but hadn't happened across the one you mention.
Because of previous health issues and an overly long transition period between trad and wfp, my customers' windows and frames will probably all be filthy so I'd rather spend a little extra time getting it clean first time and lower the chances of me losing customers or getting complaints and then on my return clean, I can concentrate on speeding up a lot.
2 passes is good advice, though I'm aggressively scrubbing my panes, possibly too much, I just imagine the windows must be really dirty and I need to scrub them clean, but then the water running down from the frame scrubbing and rinsing will have already softened it up somewhat.
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Thank you Spruce, you've been a great help.
We notice a big difference on one job we have where we unroll the whole 100 meters of hose. The water flows much better at the brush head. Half way through the job we roll about 2/3rd of the hose back onto the hose reel. The flow difference at the brush head is quite noticeable. So water is more easily able to travel down a straight hose than a coiled one. Water temperature also plays a big part in this as well.
So in theory I should have a better flow rate round the back of the house than round the front as more hose is uncoiled then? Or I need to uncoil the right amount for the back before I even start the front!
I'm answering this separately.
Most of us haven't the space in our vans to carry a variety of hose reels around to accomodate different jobs. Most of us have found that 100 meters of minibore/microbore is good for everything. If you need it longer then move the van.
I'm also inclined to over clean, but I can tell you from experience you waste time, water and money doing it. I know this is very new to you, so the 'smart money' tells us that you need 2 passes on each window pane, a quick rinse and onto the next window. Set yourself a a target time to wash and rinse an average window of 60 seconds. Count up a second at a time in your head as you do it. I will probably take you longer than a minute as you are doing first cleans, so start doing it after your second clean. If you take longer, make 60 secs your target. Once you have achieved that then reduce it to 50 seconds etc.
Son in law started wfp cleaning 2 years ago having done trad for many years. Yes he took over some of our round which was all wfp so he had no first cleans. He is so fast each window takes him less than 15 secs. But each window I've inspected after he has finished and moved on was perfect. We lost a couple of customers due to his speed. Not one of those customers convinced me that it was because the windows weren't cleaned properly.
We have a monthly commercial we do that which is done over a weekend when there isn't anyone around. Its great for experimenting on. There are a whole run of windows that are south facing so dry quickly. We have often used that run of windows to play around as we can go back over them and correct any issues. We tried one pass and rinse, a slower one pass and no rinse and scrubbed and rinsed like made. Once they had dried you couldn't tell the difference. But for us 2 passes and a good rinse is what we do.
Have a look at this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=re2CdgRbSsE
I've watched a few of his videos recently, like this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuRIBzupHuM which has windows similar in size to those I deal with, but hadn't happened across the one you mention.
Because of previous health issues and an overly long transition period between trad and wfp, my customers' windows and frames will probably all be filthy so I'd rather spend a little extra time getting it clean first time and lower the chances of me losing customers or getting complaints and then on my return clean, I can concentrate on speeding up a lot.
2 passes is good advice, though I'm aggressively scrubbing my panes, possibly too much, I just imagine the windows must be really dirty and I need to scrub them clean, but then the water running down from the frame scrubbing and rinsing will have already softened it up somewhat.
Yes, you are right with regard to first cleans. Take your time and go back and check your work when the windows have dried a bit. Spending time getting the first clean will cost you in reduced income, but doing a good job first clean will pay dividends later on. You can start to speed up a little later once the windows are 'sterile.'
You won't have a difference in flow between the backs and fronts. We pull enough hose off the reel to start at the furthest window and work back. So you will have the same amount of hose off the reel no matter where you are.
My hose reel is on wheels and for those difficult access backs gardens with lots of corners I pull the hose reel to the furthest window, sometimes lock the hose around something and walk the hose reel back to the van - works out much quicker and you end up with the right amount of hose.