Clean It Up

UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Neil Gornall on January 17, 2014, 06:52:07 pm

Title: Told today my set up is wrong, is yours?
Post by: Neil Gornall on January 17, 2014, 06:52:07 pm
Been having a small problem with my water production, nothing much but its annoying as I cant seem to solve it.
So today I saw the guy in the next unit who runs a large plumbing outfit so asked him to have a quick look to see if he could spot my issue.
As soon as he walked in he said if the water company were to come in here they would go nuts!

I would guess my set it is similar to lots of you yet apparently its not allowed. Tap - pump - RO - DI - Holding tank.
According to him you are not allowed to "pump" straight from the mains. Even though I have a double check valve installed its not enough.

He has suggested I install a "break tank" and pump from that.
Title: Re: Told to my set up is wrong, is yours?
Post by: PoleKing on January 17, 2014, 06:58:22 pm
Did he say why?
Or show you any legislation?

I've had 4 plumbers give an opinion on a gas issue I've got.
Turns out, 3 of 'em were just touting for work and scandalising.
Finally got the answer I wanted once the 4th had shown me WRITTEN legislation.

Not to undermine your fella but ask him why he thinks what he thinks and show you the paperwork. One persons interpretation may be drastically different to another's with both being right.
Dont worry for the minute though...

In other news: did you sort your original issue?

Title: Re: Told to my set up is wrong, is yours?
Post by: Clever Forum Name on January 17, 2014, 07:03:55 pm
My neighbour specialises in turning up at your house and installing booster pumps to up the mains pressure so will ask him when I see him.

Think he's talking waffle.
Title: Re: Told to my set up is wrong, is yours?
Post by: Mitchellmoxo on January 17, 2014, 07:07:19 pm
I think its because of the flow rate some of them have. If the flow rate is more than the tap is producing then the pump can create a vaccum in the pipe and bend it flat depending on the strength of your pump
Title: Re: Told to my set up is wrong, is yours?
Post by: Neil Gornall on January 17, 2014, 07:12:28 pm
His reasoning was that if I am "pulling" water it increases the likelihood of dropping pressure elsewhere and also drawing contaminated water into the mains.

I can see his logic as it makes sense, he used a power shower as a reference and said they are not allowed to instal them direct from the mains either, they must draw from a break tank. 
Title: Re: Told to my set up is wrong, is yours?
Post by: James Bulton on January 17, 2014, 07:14:33 pm
The reason for the water problem is the pump should not exceed the natural flow from the pipes but should only boost the pressure of the water for the R O. If you pump more than and I stand corrected is 12 liters a min. AS the vacuum can draw water and collapse the water pipes.
The same principal stands with many pressure waters.
Title: Re: Told to my set up is wrong, is yours?
Post by: koopmaster on January 17, 2014, 07:14:52 pm
I have the same setup - water goes from the mains to the pump - ro - di and then to my tank!!!

is there a magical way to get my water to my di and ro !!    I dont think so.

also if this was wrong why would they sell all these machines...!!!...

I think there's a very good British saying for this one.

b******s
Title: Re: Told to my set up is wrong, is yours?
Post by: MNWC on January 17, 2014, 07:26:40 pm
what RO have you got Neil ? How much water does it make in 24 hours
Title: Re: Told to my set up is wrong, is yours?
Post by: craig21t on January 17, 2014, 07:59:22 pm
http://www.southeastwater.co.uk/media/108946/watersupply_regulations.pdf

Look at number 3.
Title: Re: Told to my set up is wrong, is yours?
Post by: andyM on January 17, 2014, 08:03:00 pm
It is true.
We are not really supposed to use booster pumps drawing water straight off the mains water supply.
It is against water regulations.
Really we are supposed to have a break tank between tap and booster pump.
Title: Re: Told to my set up is wrong, is yours?
Post by: Neil Gornall on January 17, 2014, 08:15:02 pm
what RO have you got Neil ? How much water does it make in 24 hours

I have got a Gardiners EZ-Pure Axeon. 
Not sure how quick it producing at the moment. its plenty fast enough to keep my 3 vans full so dont time it. I will do next week.
Title: Re: Told today my set up is wrong, is yours?
Post by: robert mitchell on January 17, 2014, 09:07:12 pm
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1999/1148/regulation/5/made


it says you have to notify them , it doesn't say you can't do it.

It will definitely not collapse any pipes.
Title: Re: Told today my set up is wrong, is yours?
Post by: trippyboy on January 17, 2014, 09:13:53 pm
Its about a 2 grand fine for putting a pump on the mains,reason being it zaps everyone elses supply in the street.
You can only pump from a holding tank to your RO and not direct from mains,its fairly serious tbh
Title: Re: Told today my set up is wrong, is yours?
Post by: Neil Gornall on January 17, 2014, 09:18:56 pm
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1999/1148/regulation/5/made


it says you have to notify them , it doesn't say you can't do it.

It will definitely not collapse any pipes.
I just found the same document as you. It seems you can add a pump providing you dont take more than 12 L per min. Odd that it specifically mentions reverse osmosis units and waste water.. It seems all of us should notify the water company. I have now
Title: Re: Told today my set up is wrong, is yours?
Post by: Dave Mills on January 17, 2014, 09:19:06 pm
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1999/1148/regulation/5/made


it says you have to notify them , it doesn't say you can't do it.

It will definitely not collapse any pipes.

But "a pump or booster drawing more than 12 litres per minute, connected directly or indirectly to a supply pipe;" means planty of us wont have a problem.
Title: Re: Told today my set up is wrong, is yours?
Post by: Dave Mills on January 17, 2014, 09:21:50 pm
Its about a 2 grand fine for putting a pump on the mains,reason being it zaps everyone elses supply in the street.
You can only pump from a holding tank to your RO and not direct from mains,its fairly serious tbh

Sounds unlikely that it "zaps everyone elses supply" as it doesnt even affect the flow in the rest of my house (all supplied by one pipe).  I can still shower, etc, etc, without any change in flow if the pumps on or off.  Nothing like a good exaggeration on a Friday evening.
Title: Re: Told today my set up is wrong, is yours?
Post by: trippyboy on January 17, 2014, 09:25:50 pm
Its about a 2 grand fine for putting a pump on the mains,reason being it zaps everyone elses supply in the street.
You can only pump from a holding tank to your RO and not direct from mains,its fairly serious tbh

Sounds unlikely that it "zaps everyone elses supply" as it doesnt even affect the flow in the rest of my house (all supplied by one pipe).  I can still shower, etc, etc, without any change in flow if the pumps on or off.  Nothing like a good exaggeration on a Friday evening.
I done 2 years at college to get NVQ in plumbing 6 years ago.
This is what we were taught.
Ring your local water supplier and ask them direct yourself
Title: Re: Told today my set up is wrong, is yours?
Post by: trippyboy on January 17, 2014, 09:30:30 pm
Read number 3
http://www.wras.co.uk/Regulations_Default.asp
Title: Re: Told today my set up is wrong, is yours?
Post by: SeanK on January 17, 2014, 09:39:07 pm
Its about a 2 grand fine for putting a pump on the mains,reason being it zaps everyone elses supply in the street.
You can only pump from a holding tank to your RO and not direct from mains,its fairly serious tbh

Sounds unlikely that it "zaps everyone elses supply" as it doesnt even affect the flow in the rest of my house (all supplied by one pipe).  I can still shower, etc, etc, without any change in flow if the pumps on or off.  Nothing like a good exaggeration on a Friday evening.

Yours might not but what if everybody on the street decided to use one.
This is what its meant to stop.
Title: Re: Told today my set up is wrong, is yours?
Post by: kempy on January 17, 2014, 10:34:08 pm
Sssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh............be quiet
Title: Re: Told today my set up is wrong, is yours?
Post by: Dave Mills on January 17, 2014, 10:46:21 pm
Yours might not but what if everybody on the street decided to use one.
This is what its meant to stop.

But that isnt what he said

Its about a 2 grand fine for putting a pump on the mains,reason being it zaps everyone elses supply in the street.
You can only pump from a holding tank to your RO and not direct from mains,its fairly serious tbh

Title: Re: Told today my set up is wrong, is yours?
Post by: robert mitchell on January 18, 2014, 12:08:53 pm
How does it zap everyone's supply ?

A standard fire engine can pump 2300 litres per minute , some can pump 5000 litres per minute to supply Ariel ladder platforms .

They take this from the same water main as the houses and there taps still work .

Even if every house had a 12 lpm pump it's not going to significantly affect the streets water supply .

All they are saying is you should notify them if you do fit a pump .
Title: Re: Told today my set up is wrong, is yours?
Post by: best on January 25, 2014, 07:19:11 am
Checked with my water company years ago, said you cant pump direct from a tap

YET
if you buy a pressure washer, are we not breaking the law
(Is this not a booster pump attatched to a tap)
Title: Re: Told today my set up is wrong, is yours?
Post by: andyM on January 25, 2014, 07:25:38 am
Checked with my water company years ago, said you cant pump direct from a tap

YET
if you buy a pressure washer, are we not breaking the law
(Is this not a booster pump attatched to a tap)

Good point.
But maybe the pumps in domestic rated pressure washers are less than 12 ltrs per minute?
(The WRAS regulations state that less than 12 ltrs per minute is acceptable).  
Title: Re: Told today my set up is wrong, is yours?
Post by: Don Kee on January 25, 2014, 07:39:27 am
Flow and pressure aren't the same thing.
 Booster pumps are increasing the pressure and dont effect the mains flow so surely it wouldn't effect anyone elses supply...?
Title: Re: Told today my set up is wrong, is yours?
Post by: windiewasher on January 25, 2014, 09:14:47 am
Flow and pressure aren't the same thing.
 Booster pumps are increasing the pressure and dont effect the mains flow so surely it wouldn't effect anyone elses supply...?
+1
Title: Re: Told today my set up is wrong, is yours?
Post by: steve a on January 26, 2014, 09:54:57 am
flow and pressure are not the same thing.  You up the pressure for a given flow with a jet wash by making the outlet smaller. If you want to up the pressure of water in a half inch hose for your tank without losing flow then the flow must be greater. Baffling myself now.
Title: Re: Told today my set up is wrong, is yours?
Post by: david mark on January 27, 2014, 09:53:09 am
N.V.Q 2 plumbers book clearly states no pump should be conected to the mains.  A holding tank then pump is the way it should be setup, the same set up with a cylinder in the loft providing a shower pump.

Title: Re: Told today my set up is wrong, is yours?
Post by: PoleKing on January 27, 2014, 06:42:14 pm
N.V.Q 2 plumbers book clearly states no pump should be conected to the mains.  A holding tank then pump is the way it should be setup, the same set up with a cylinder in the loft providing a shower pump.



Not to add fuel to this fire but I think I'm right in saying that a plumber isn't to fit a radiator in a conservatory (definitely not in a new build) but that doesn't mean it can't be done.
Perhaps it's the same sort of thing where a plumber isn't supposed to do it but that doesn't make it illegal or whatever...
Title: Re: Told today my set up is wrong, is yours?
Post by: robert mitchell on January 28, 2014, 11:32:22 am
I'm sure plenty of people use pumps off there outside tap , chances are nobody is ever going to find out or even care .

anybody who is worried about it can just feed the tap water into an ibc with auto cut off then pump from that .

if your outside tap already comes from a water tank in your house then you have no problem .

mine runs from my washing machine inlet (fitted a double adaptor) which is supplied from my water tank in the roof .