Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Gareth H Davies on December 20, 2013, 07:44:44 pm
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Hi Guys,
I have a Promount 25 and it keeps cutting out/overheating when using upholstery tool.
Runs fine when using normal wand, even when just left to run whilst spraying/agitating it does not cut out.
Solution hose is hot at truckmount end but gets colder the closer it gets to the upholstery tool.
Again it runs fine when using normal wand and getting good heat.
When it cuts out the engine wont start up again until it has cooled back down.
New to the truckmount scene as i have recently upgraded from a porty.
Can anyone point me in the right direction into what may be causing this?
Cheers
Gareth
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It should dump hot water to regulate heat.
Does it have a temp control k-nob?
Turn temp down.
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yeah tried turning that down but no joy :-(
thought it must be dumping hot water as temp stays consistent when normal wand is just laying there whilst pre spraying/agitating or even when nothing is attached.
it is baffling me!!
i cleaned filter on jet in waste tank for dumping pipe a few days ago as the water temp kept rising. that stopped water temp rising. re checked it today and is fine.
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You need to test for sure that it is dumping, (have you actually seen it dump?)
If not, when machine is hot open waste tank lid, turn the temp k-nob all the way down, with the machine running watch inside for dumping.
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cheers, i was thinking the same thing but been a long day today so will check that tomorrow. luckily no stairs or upholstery to do tomorrow so shouldnt cut out, touch wood :-)
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Watch you don't start blowing heat exchangers as they are 1500 quid a go.
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It maybe the high temperature switch on the heat box thats faulty causing it to cutout, you should be able to check by removing the appropiate fuse and seeing if its runs
steve
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yeah dont wanna be replacing a heat exchanger!! checked fuses and all seem fine. just dont understand why it only does it while using the upholstery tool
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Obviously your not using as much water with the upholstery tool, hence truckmounts need to dump to make up the short fall - it still makes the same heat.
With the wand it will rarely need to dump. Upholstery it dumps loads to stop it overheating.
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I highly suspect its not dumping.
ascertain that then you can look at why not, as Steve said maybe sensor.
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yeah does make sense, will get on case tomorrow and get back to u :-) neighbors prob wouldnt like it if i started it up now lol
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There should be a thermovalve, a tempreture sensitive valve connected to the pump or water box so that if the water box overheats the valve opens and dumps water to the recovery tank which protects the machine from overheating. When using upholstery or stair tools the flow through the water box is that much less than when using a wand and so the cooling effect of hot water in the water box being cooled by in flowing cold water and hence not triggering the thermovalve. Depending on what machine you have the ultimate protection from the system overheating is either disengaging the pump clutch or shutting machine down completely.
I'd suggest your thermovalve is stuck closed because of scale in the system, in fact I'm certain of it I given your symptoms. Descale the machine with truckmount descaler and then run up to temp (with the. A port fully blocked off) and put your hand of the recovery tank fitting that comes from the thermovalve, if it doesn't get hot and the machine or pump cuts out, you know what the problem is as it should get hot which means the thermovalve is working.
Simples....ish.
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Methinks its Orifice problem :-X
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It could be, if it has one but the water box would be cool whereas the machine would be hot enough to shutdown, so when it shutdown put your hand in the waterbox, if it is cold then the recirculating orifice is blocked. If it's hot then it is more likely the thermovalve being faulty.
Simon
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cheers guys. put hand in water box and it is HOT so sounds like it could be the thermovalve. bought machine few weeks ago and it had been sat round for quite a while with previous owner. tried descaling it with acid rince but may need the proper stuff.
water box was cold when i got it, but flow from wand was hot and water temp kept rising but fixed that problem by unblocking filter on dump jet in waste tank.
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Well that should have solved the problem. But if not you should have a recirculating orifice somewhere that bleeds heated water back to the waterbox. If it is blocked then when the wand is closed the water in the heat exchangers builds up because it is in effect standing still and so causes a shutdown.
Sounds like the machine could do with a really good descale but when you do that make sure that you rinse the system out thoroughly not only to get rid of the crap but to rid it of any descaler which could cause a huge problem the first time you clean a carpet.
Simon
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Sorry to hijack this thread but i have a similar problem with my Bluewave Diesel, plenty of heat but waterbox is staying cold and machine overheats if left idle for any length of time or using a hand tool on full revs.
If you look into the waterbox you can see a tiny stream of hot bubbles coming back in but not enough to get it hot to open the thermal valve, Ive descaled it but no improvment.
thanks Adrian
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Hi Adrian,
Same issue, blocked recirculating orofice. Because it is blocked the water is standing in the heat exchangers and then overheats. The water box should be hot, but not too hot otherwise the thermovalve will open and dump to the recovery tank. If the thermo is stuck open you will be using an awful lot of water and the fitting will always be hot, which it shouldn't be, this can also have a cooling effect on the water box temp.
Hope this helps
Simon
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The voice of experience that's why you should use forums and hopefully be nice to people who can help you well done simon.
Billy will be here soon as the word ' orifice ' gets him excited.
Shaun
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Billy will be here soon as the word ' orifice ' gets him excited.
Shaun
Too late, Shaun, he's already been there, that's why it's blocked up ;D
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Got the retractable hose what modifications do I need to do to it?
Shaun
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Take the spring out and get rid of the hose. Should take 100 feet of quarter in hose. You will also need a short length to go from the side of the hose reel to the machine.
Simon
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Be careful taking the spring out btw.
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HI Simon thanks for that any ideas were the oriface would be? The machine is definitely not dumping water as i've had the pipe off the thermal valve and not a drop when machine is up to temprature and water box is stone cold.
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I don't have one but have just looked at a picture of one and it appears to be between and slightly below the two solution quick connects. Usually a brass nut and then you will need an allen key to get the jet out which is inset about a quarter of an inch in the housing. They are usually a stainless steel fitting with a small hole in it, you will probably find that it is blocked, so clear it and you shouldn't have a problem. A good way of checking it is working is to undo the brass nut and a fine jet of water should start appearing, if not it will need cleaning. You should check this regularly.
That jet keeps the water moving around the system from the heat exchanger to the water box. If you leave the machine standing for too long the water box will get too hot and the thermovalve will open allowing cold water into the water box hence preventing an overheat shutdown.
Simon
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An orifice jet looks like this:
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Not sure i've ever seen one of those on my machine i think chris at alltec said there wasn't one on it.On the front there is a stainless steel nut which is a check valve for the chemical pump and the other is a brass nut with a big filter behind it which has never had a bit of scale in it any time i,ve taken it out in the eight years i,ve owned it.
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Hmm, that's odd. Best ask a Thermalwave guy.
Simon
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Centre of the bottom panel, two brass nuts, one will house the orifice. Section 5 of the manual
http://www.sapphirescientific.com/Uploads/Document/BLUEline/49-002_THERMALWAVE_5MRevB.pdf?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1
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I have the Bluewave not the Thermalwave although the manifold looks simlar,on page 67 part no 10 is the filter i was refering to and shows nothing else behind it and part no 9 is a check valve for the chemical pump.
think i,m going to have to take a few bits off and see if i can find something that's blocked.
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Just seen the bits your talking about on page 68, not sure mine has this.
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Adrian,
I've asked the question on truckmounters, someone on there will have one.
Simon
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Thanks simon i think mine is the only one in the uk as alltec only ever brought the one over but i think the plumbing on the petrol versions is the same.
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I luckily live in a very soft water area. The importance of descaling cannot be over stressed but using acid rinse ???
Buy the proper stuff.
Peter
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Sorry to hijack this thread but i have a similar problem with my Bluewave Diesel, plenty of heat but waterbox is staying cold and machine overheats if left idle for any length of time or using a hand tool on full revs.
If you look into the waterbox you can see a tiny stream of hot bubbles coming back in but not enough to get it hot to open the thermal valve, Ive descaled it but no improvment.
thanks Adrian
Ive got the Thermal Wave. On the Bluewave is the engine water cooled?
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Hi Dave, yes it's a water cooled kubota diesel.
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The only times I have had cutting out and re-starting problems with my Thermal Wave was when the engine coolant level in the radiator was slightly low and another occasion when the Waste tank high water level switch stuck in the up position.
Dave.
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Dave the only reason its cutting out is because the engine is overheating due to water not circulating around the whole system and it not being able to dump the excess hot water ,it sounds like it has a blocked oriface but it dosn't appear to have one so something else must be blocked or scaled up.
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Adrian,
Every TM has a recirculating jet, otherwise we would all be plagued by your problem. Have you checked your water pump belt isn't loose and that the radiator is full?
Simon
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Adrian,
Every TM has a recirculating jet, otherwise we would all be plagued by your problem. Have you checked your water pump belt isn't loose and that the radiator is full?
Simon
None of mine have them.
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Locate the diesel injector pump on the engine and replace the 12volt wire to it, it will run.
It could be any no of sensors thats killing it or it could be a faulty diesel pump solenoid.
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Glyn i think the problem is definitely the hot water not returning to the water box as the machine only cuts out when getting to hot because if i turn the revs down it will run all day but i loose a bit of heat, if i run at full revs and stop cleaning for five minutes say to move furniture it will cut out and the water box is still stone cold.
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also injector pump is mechanical not electric.
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also injector pump is mechanical not electric.
Yes I know but it has an electric stop solenoid.
Do you have a wiring diagram of the machine ?, it may have electric heat sensors rather than thermovalves.
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Looking at the manual, it doesn't appear to have a recirculating system nor any bypass orifice.
Will it keep running if you turn off the solution pump ?.
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There is a thermo valve in the water box, see no11 on pic below.
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i,ve tested this in boiling water and it opens but water box doesn't get hot enough to make it open.
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there is also a thermal valve in the pipes just below the water box which is also opening and closing.
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There doesn't appear to be a second thermo valve like you say.
Q, did the water box used to heat up ?
Q, will the machine run if the water pump clutch is OFF ?.
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part no 14 is the other thermo valve i was talking about.
the water box used to get very hot, too hot to put your hand in now stone cold and yes machine will run with water pump clutch off.
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1387837233_Screen shot 2013-12-23 at 22.19.03.png)
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OK, and both of these thermo valves are closed when cold ?.
If so do they open when heated to 180 (no 14 ) & 165 (no 11 )
Have you removed and tested them in a pan on heat & with a thermometer ?.
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yes both closed when cold, i have tested them with hot water and both open but not with a thermometer maybee this should be my next step.
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Here may be the problem, I'm thinking no 14 should be open when cold and close at 180f - hence it's name a "bypass valve"
meaning it is open when cold, allowing heated water to circulate into the water box. Since it's closed when cold it can't heat the water box and thus, the whole system will overheat and eventually shut down.
I'll bet if you follow the pipe from the valve ( no 11 ) it goes straight to the waste tank ?, whereas the valve ( no 14 ) goes to both the pressure regulator and the water pump which would cause heated water flow into the water box UNTILL the water box temp reaches 180f when the valve ( no 14 ) would close and stop the heated water flow into the box.
If I were you I would remove no 14, check it out by dismantling it & possibly replacing it.
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That makes sense i was looking at it opening at 180, part 11 goes to the waste tank to dump hot water,any ideas were i'd get a new one from as blueline no longer exist unless it is on any other machine.
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Possibly Prochem, since it was some of the Prochem lads who set up Blueline so Iv'e heard and they are very similar in design so may even share the part.
But, first take it apart. It might just be clogged up with crap, it's probably a simple spring and wax valve affair, could just be stuck.
It might have a make & part no on too.
Adrian, your a member of truck mounters, why didn't you ask there ?.
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Thanks Glyn i'll take it apart and have another look tomorrow, i have got a few bits for it from prochem and there local so you never know.
I did try to log on to truckmounters but it would not let me so i sent an email for a new password but got nothing back.
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I have emailed you new details for TMers.
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thanks glyn.
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Chris at Alltec is the most experienced guy on Blueline TM's, why not ask him, he may even have the spare part you may need, left over from when they were the main Blueline dealers, and was almost certainly the one that supplied your TM in the first place.
Dave.
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Been away for a few days but have checked and it is dumping fine and i have also descaled it now.
Whilst doing this i noticed that the vacuum gauge goes up with the engine revs and reads -15 with no piping etc attached. When engine is turned off it is still reading just under -5 and very slowly decreases over time.
When piping is attached i still get good suction though.
Could this be why the engine keeps cutting out when using upholstery tool? And what could be causing this?
Cheers
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That's not good.
Sounds like you have a blockage in the vacuum system or the micro filter in the tank is bunged up with rubbish. Try revving it up and put a cloth into the vac inlet and see if it arrives in the tank or gets stuck, probably where the suction line joins the tank. Failing that you've got a faulty vac gauge.
A blockage would certainly explain the overheating issue but with it you would have higher than normal fuel consumption as the engine is working harder than normal to fight the restriction in the suction system and hence overheating which really isn't good.
Simon
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Gareth I will call and explain how to solve your problem.
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Thanks for the call Paul. I got new filter as old one was nakerd from previous owner not maintaining it! and also got some wd on the valve you mentioned. It has made a big difference however after using it on a job when I switch engine off the HG gauge is still reading around -4 and takes a few hours to return to zero :-(
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I removed gauge and still stayed at -4
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Gareth - why dont you just take it to either Woodbridge or gp cleaners in Cheltenham which would be nearer to you. I`m sure they`d be able to sort out any probs pretty quickly.
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already booked in for service etc at GP Cleaners for end of next week but was a long wait with xmas etc as i contacted them in December to book it in.