Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Hard Floor Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Kev Martin on December 05, 2013, 01:54:14 pm
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I had a call yesterday from a very experienced tiler saying he had put 5 coats of impregnating sealer on some stone he had laid in a new conservatory and it still wasn't beading. It wasn't Aqua Mix, LTP or our Pro Sealer but that makes no difference really. It was a sealer that is well known and performs reasonably well in tests we have done and would have done if used correctly.
The stone was a fairly porous Limestone and was 32M2! I asked how long he had left between coats and what he had applied the sealer with? His reply was he used a Paint Pad to apply and he had presealed before grouting and then put coat 2 on 24 hours after grouting starting at 9am and completed it by 10am and then he applied 3 more additional coats leaving 1-2 Hours between coats he did a final test at 4.30pm and it was still not beading and the stone was absorbing some water.
I was not surprised to hear any of this after his explanation but having applied literally 100's of gallons of sealer to Limestone the most coats I have ever applied is 3 and that was only in two instances. I find most limestones accept 2 coats only!
What do you think went wrong or he did wrong?
A Prize for the best most complete explanation!!!
Jamie CSUK NO YOU CAN'T ENTER!!!!
Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
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Answers in your own words!!! No google answers or plagiarism I will know ;D ;D ;D
Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
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Jamie CSUK NO YOU CAN'T ENTER!!!!
Thats not very sporting !
Surely this means I have won as clearly, in your mind, I know the answer.
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Jamie CSUK NO YOU CAN'T ENTER!!!!
Thats not very sporting !
Surely this means I have won as clearly, in your mind, I know the answer.
I just don't want you putting the wrong reply on and embarrassing your Scottish A**e! :D :D :D
Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
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:'(
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It wasent curing as too many coats too soon so tile still absorbing water.
Mark
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To many coats of sealer,and not allowing the sealer to fully cure before testing? or was he testing between coats to see if the sealer beaded and did not dry the surface off properly before adding yet another coat? Lithofin Stain Stop by chance?
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It wasent curing as too many coats too soon so tile still absorbing water.
Mark
Close but was looking for a bit more really
Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
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To many coats of sealer,and not allowing the sealer to fully cure before testing? or was he testing between coats to see if the sealer beaded and did not dry the surface off properly before adding yet another coat? Lithofin Stain Stop by chance?
Roger
Like Mark close but was looking for a bit more really! He only did the one test at 4.30pm
Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
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I've no idea but it sounds like all the sealer is in the cellar ;D
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Grouting ain't cured.
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A topical sealer was applied before hand and then he used an impregnator so it didn't cure. Don't shoot me down if thats ridiculous.
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As Chris stated grouting not fully cured, has he tried to seal the Limestone only and not touch the grouting so the paving is soaking moisture through the grouting if you see what I mean.
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Because of the sealant before grouting, the moisture from the grout is trapped.
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A topical sealer was applied before hand and then he used an impregnator so it didn't cure. Don't shoot me down if thats ridiculous.
He used the same sealer it was all impregnating.
Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
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It wasent curing as too many coats too soon so tile still absorbing water.
Mark
Mark
Your on the right track! I want to know why? The back of the bottle says a second coat can be applied within 2 hours as do most impregnating sealers
Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
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The 2nd coat was acting as a 1st coat because of the grouting and so he thought was ok to apply coat 3 1-2 hour after coat 2 were really coat 2 should of been left for 24 hours after sealing the grout then coat 3 after then 4 and 5, 2 hours between thats my theory after what you say but i havent got a clue lol as i'm not a hard floor cleaner.
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It wasent curing as too many coats too soon so tile still absorbing water.
Mark
Mark
Your on the right track! I want to know why? The back of the bottle says a second coat can be applied within 2 hours as do most impregnating sealers
Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
Temperature's to low so sealer not curing/drying enough between coats?
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Grouting should of been done after sealing and bead check then grout then add a final coat over grout ??? ??? ???
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He had the paint pad upside down so instead of applying sealer it was taking it off.
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You have the answer just about between all of you but no one has a complete answer I am looking for! If you think about it all you will get it! I am away on the weekend but I will give a prize for the best most complete answer. Read the initial post again all the key points are there!
Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
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He had the paint pad upside down so instead of applying sealer it was taking it off.
No this guy is Welsh not Scottish :D :D :D :D
Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
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An impregnating sealers seal just below the stone surface and lets the stone breath so water wont bead on the stone surface. A topical sealer puts a protective coat onto the surface so applied correctly water will bead.
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An impregnating sealers seal just below the stone surface and lets the stone breath so water wont bead on the stone surface. A topical sealer puts a protective coat onto the surface so applied correctly water will bead.
We used Aquamix impregnating sealers on limestone and they all beaded.
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He put the seal on too thick with a paint pad and did'nt rub the seal into the stone after application.
Was the floor sticky aswell.
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He grouted too soon after 1st seal so grout absorbed alot of seal then when cleaned and 2nd coat applied should of left a longer dwell between coats or maybe the stone was that porous the grout haze etc soaked into the stone and wasn't cleaned enough before 2nd coat I DONT KNOW JUST TELL US!!!!!!!!! ;D
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The first coat before grouting wasn't enough to seal it, then the moisture from the grout didn't dry out enough for the next coat, so for each coat after it was not drying.
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not enough drying time between coats?
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Are we getting the answer to this sometime this year Kev?
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Kev has been ill all this week but I'm sure he will come back to you when he is back
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Pantomime season has started early I see ;D ;D ;D
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OK guys apologies but I have been ill this week!
I still haven't seen a complete answer but a lot of you have spotted the main cause in that he didn't wait long enough between coats of sealer consequently by applying more coats so quickly all he was doing was rewetting the sealer he had already applied. We all know most sealer manufacturers say you can reapply a second coat within a few hours but the fact is this is marketing bullpoop the sealer manufacturers put this because the others do. However it is a fact that 99% of impregnating sealers take at least 24 hours to cure and in most cases 48-72 hours is even better. But all this aside what was the additional contributing factor that stopped the solvent from evaporating and therefore slowed the cure process down even more apart from the speed of application.
Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
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He didn't leave the floor to dry out long enough before grouting so when 1st seal was put on moisture was trapped making the seal not cure and maybe being in a conservatory were direct sunlight, Condensation etc or being cold meant he needed to leave for more like 3days after grouting before applying 1st coat.
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I thought that all impregnating sealers were applied "wet on wet" until the point of saturation.
What is the solvent used in this particular sealer in this case ?
How long had the floor being down ...is it still green? If so the substrate will just "suck in" gallons of anything you pour on it. ...it will just go through the flooring and into the concrete,It would never get the chance to cure.
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I thought that all impregnating sealers were applied "wet on wet" until the point of saturation.
What is the solvent used in this particular sealer in this case ?
A course I once went on told me exactly the same Chris...like I have said many times before...never to old too learn though.
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I'm always learning...mainly from the mistakes i make. ;D
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I dont get why all manufacturers say you can apply additional coats after X amount of time if this is not the case. In the case of Aquamix they say 30mins on some of their sealers. Hows is it marketing BS.
I understand the 24hrs to full cure but once you have treated the said floor you dont want to be hanging about all day to get another coat down.
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I dont get why all manufacturers say you can apply additional coats after X amount of time if this is not the case. In the case of Aquamix they say 30mins on some of their sealers. Hows is it marketing BS.
I understand the 24hrs to full cure but once you have treated the said floor you dont want to be hanging about all day to get another coat down.
Impregnators should be applied till they repel themselves. That means all the holes are filled in , no room left for the stains...wet on wet hence "30 mins between coats" (eg) just enough to soak in but not cure.
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As some of you know, I bring in Lantania from Italy. On the sealers I use, such as AVO, it says, "On highly absorbent surfaces, apply a second coat." Another sealer, TWINS.TW, it says "Apply using a cloth, performing circular movements, once completely dry, remove the eventual excess using a pad or cloth." This suggests to me that, the sealer...seals...enough for there to be an excess...in one application. Then again, it does go on to say "on highly absorbent surfaces, apply a second coat" a little misleading perhaps if the first coat leaves an excess??? ???
On my other sealer of choice, HIDROSEBIN, again from Lantania, it says ..."on highly absorbent surfaces, apply a second coat". So, in my honest opinion, these sealers do their job in a maximum of 2 coats. Not the cheapest sealers in the world, but I am yet to find a better one. ;D
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The make of the sealer has no relevance on the reply I am looking for. Neither does the fact of whether it is a water based or solvent based impregnating sealer. I am also not questioning performance of different makes of sealers so performance and individuals preferences are also irrelevant. In fact I havebeen careful not to mention the sealer he used.
Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
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The make of the sealer has no relevance on the reply I am looking for. Neither does the fact of whether it is a water based or solvent based impregnating sealer. I am also not questioning performance of different makes of sealers so performance and individuals preferences are also irrelevant. In fact I havebeen careful not to mention the sealer he used.
Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
Water is a solvent...and i give in ,i don't want to play anymore. Whats the answer? I can't sleep at night with the excitment ;D
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Is the sealer dry yet?...can we have the answer?
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I bet you can't hear the bell and get three visits on Christmas eve
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Is the sealer dry yet?...can we have the answer?
Chris
I know the answer and if you read the post again and engage the Brain Cells I am sure you do as well. Then who knows you might win!!!
Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
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5 coats of impregnating sealer on new conservatory
porous Limestone
Paint Pad to apply
coat 2 on 24 hours after grouting 9am and completed it by 10am.
applied 3 coats leaving 1-2 Hours between coats
he did a final test at 4.30pm
Still don't get where he went wrong!
The paint pad ? ???
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Right final shot at this,
Paving laid, (pre-sealed which should make no difference) then grouted.
He didn't leave enough time for the medium used to lay the paving to dry, (Limestone wicking up moisture) then grouted so again not enough time for the grouting to cure before starting to seal the paving, plus with the over kill of applying coat upon coat of sealer the whole area is saturated and not drying. Also the temperatures to low to seal anyway, with it being a conservatory to cold maybe ?Also maybe not taking off any excess sealer (pooling) so all leading to a fail?
Even if this is not the right answer, tell us the bloody answer ;D
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Was he working in the lost city of Atlantis ?
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Right final shot at this,
Paving laid, (pre-sealed which should make no difference) then grouted.
He didn't leave enough time for the medium used to lay the paving to dry, (Limestone wicking up moisture) then grouted so again not enough time for the grouting to cure before starting to seal the paving, plus with the over kill of applying coat upon coat of sealer the whole area is saturated and not drying. Also the temperatures to low to seal anyway, with it being a conservatory to cold maybe ?Also maybe not taking off any excess sealer (pooling) so all leading to a fail?
Even if this is not the right answer, tell us the bloody answer ;D
Roger
.why do you want me to tell you? You have just told me what I was looking for. I knew someone would work it out
Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
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What does Roger win? Exactly as I thought really I've just not had time to post :)
Well done Roger!
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I am using these type of sealers more and more (outside environment ) and I am all ways looking to learn about them ...rather than learning the hard way!
From what I can see from my experiance with them the contractor did nothing wrong (possibly the substrate was too damp to start with ...but this is basic stuff). I was under the impression impregnators were applied "wet on wet" until the substrate is saturated...then the excess removed. Then and only then were they allowed to cure...otherwise they repel themselves .
As I say I am new to this and willing to learn... so I would be interested in your indepth explanation as to why it went wrong.
What did Roger win ?
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So Kevin in your own words what was the answer you were looking for? ???
I was looking for the factors and the reasons that caused it not to bead properly.
The sealer coats were applied too quickly. Each additional coat he applied after the second coat simply rewetted the previous coat and slowed down the curing process.
The second factor was the grout had not cured so that was still wet which exacerbated the problem
The third factor was a New conservatory floor loads of glass and with no heating didn't help
Finally the ambient temperature was not ideal to seal a floor
Roger covered all of those points.
Cleaning and ultimately sealing or resealing Hard Floors is essentially like a science. Look at the problem in detail, take all the factors into account and you will invariably reach a conclusion on the best way to sort the problem. It is pointless solving a problem unless you sort the cause first. AQ bit like trying to wash your car in the rain.
Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
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What does Roger win? Exactly as I thought really I've just not had time to post :)
Well done Roger!
Roger
Give me a bell I will give you a choice of prize to suit you best up to the value of £100
Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
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So really the answer to your question is
"The contractor is a muppet that does not know the first thing about resealing substrates." ie It was too wet and too cold.
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Why did he phone you if it was not your product?
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So really the answer to your question is
"The contractor is a muppet that does not know the first thing about resealing substrates." ie It was too wet and too cold.
The contractor is one of the best tile fixers in the UK in my opinion and far from being a muppet. He normally only seals with Aqua Mix Products but the woman had bought the sealer with the tiles and insisted he used it. Many contractors ring me with problems as do many grout and adhesive manufacturers as well. I don't turn anyone away who seeks free help and advice as many CIU members will confirm. My philosophy is "Education before any sale"
Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
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So really the answer to your question is
"The contractor is a muppet that does not know the first thing about resealing substrates." ie It was too wet and too cold.
The contractor is one of the best tile fixers in the UK in my opinion and far from being a muppet. He normally only seals with Aqua Mix Products but the woman had bought the sealer with the tiles and insisted he used it. Many contractors ring me with problems as do many grout and adhesive manufacturers as well. I don't turn anyone away who seeks free help and advice as many CIU members will confirm. My philosophy is "Education before any sale"
Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
.....and for this very reason, is why I still say that your course is the best I have been on. Following the rant from Russ Taylor, I have (and always will) said that Kev's course is IN MY OPINION the best available.
Nobody goes on a restoration course to do anything other than learn, at least Kevin passes his knowledge around on this forum, like I have said before, we may not agree on everything, but I still have respect.
Russ.... learn from the man and reel your neck in.
Aren't we all supposed to learn from one another on forums like this???
Let me be the first to thank Kevin for passing the information on about the sealing problem.
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So really the answer to your question is
"The contractor is a muppet that does not know the first thing about resealing substrates." ie It was too wet and too cold.
The contractor is one of the best tile fixers in the UK in my opinion and far from being a muppet. He normally only seals with Aqua Mix Products but the woman had bought the sealer with the tiles and insisted he used it. Many contractors ring me with problems as do many grout and adhesive manufacturers as well. I don't turn anyone away who seeks free help and advice as many CIU members will confirm. My philosophy is "Education before any sale"
Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
So if he is one of the best contractors why did he undertake the job on wet substrate in unsuitable conditions? The amount of sealer he applied had little or nothing to do with the drying times. Are you saying if he had not used the womans " product" it would be ok?
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Chris
! The guy is a skilled tile fixer as am I. Who mentioned wet substrate? The issue here was not of his making but that is irrelevant and has no bearing on the sealing problem I set. We can take it more in depth if you want provided you understand tile fixing on ufh and decoupling membranes. If not it's pointless me explaining it to you.
Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
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What does Roger win? Exactly as I thought really I've just not had time to post :)
Well done Roger!
Roger
Give me a bell I will give you a choice of prize to suit you best up to the value of £100
Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
Kevin,
Thank you very much, I'll try to give you a call before Christmas, if I get a chance.
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Roger
Your welcome! You could also use the prize as a discount of your Rocky in the New Year if you want?
Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
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Chris
! The guy is a skilled tile fixer as am I. Who mentioned wet substrate? The issue here was not of his making but that is irrelevant and has no bearing on the sealing problem I set. We can take it more in depth if you want provided you understand tile fixing on ufh and decoupling membranes. If not it's pointless me explaining it to you.
Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
Decoupling membrane ...I thought they were to allow movement in floors due to factors such as thermal expansion due to things such as under floor heating?
Whose fault was it did not dry? The lady who supplied the product or the man who applied it.
I am confused. ???
You are not wasting your time explaining to me ...I love to learn. ;D
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Roger
Your welcome! You could also use the prize as a discount of your Rocky in the New Year if you want?
Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
That sound's like a plan Kevin ;)
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Well done Roger.
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The best time to wash a van is in the pouring rain, no pre wet and saves a pure water rinse. I don't use the slovac washes out of principle and before the tree huggers rant its because I'm against ecomic migration and not because they smell ;)
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Chris
! The guy is a skilled tile fixer as am I. Who mentioned wet substrate? The issue here was not of his making but that is irrelevant and has no bearing on the sealing problem I set. We can take it more in depth if you want provided you understand tile fixing on ufh and decoupling membranes. If not it's pointless me explaining it to you.
Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
Decoupling membrane ...I thought they were to allow movement in floors due to factors such as thermal expansion due to things such as under floor heating?
Whose fault was it did not dry? The lady who supplied the product or the man who applied it.
I am confused. ???
You are not wasting your time explaining to me ...I love to learn. ;D
Chris
Who said it did not dry?
Why are you continually questioning the Tilers skills? I have already told you he is highly skilled! There were underlying reasons why he was forced into doing something he didn't want to do! If you want me to talk you through laying UFH, Thermal Boards, Decoupling Membranes, PTB Adhesives, Commissioning Underfloor Heating correctly I will. Pop down for 3-4 days and I will take you through it step by step! I will teach you about Fluropolymers, New reach regulations coming into effect in January 2015 regarding sealers, new commodity coding etc etc! How much time have you got? Tell me what you want to learn and I will structure and price up a course to suit you on a one to one basis.
Call me in the morning to arrange it if you like. What i don't have is the time or the inclination to write a book on the reasons the Fixer did what he did and why
Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
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Quote " Tell me what you want to learn and I will structure and price up a course to suit you on a one to one basis."
Thank you for the offer but I work only outside so really the in and outs of underfloor heating etc are of no interest to me .
I do have a question though.... If it was applied by a pro and dryed why did the sealer not bead ?
Quote "What i don't have is the time or the inclination to write a book on the reasons the Fixer did what he did and why"
I feel you should as it was you who set the competition so I feel you should give a satisfactory answer . You state it was not the tilers to blame....I assume then the client was at fault?
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Because it was through several contributing factors that caused the problem as I have already explained. If you also believe that if water beads on a floor it is sealed you are under a serious misaprehension! I can make a floor bead with a can of Mr Sheen if you want me to but it doesn't mean it is sealed. I can seal a piece of kitchen roll with one of my sealers and you won't be able to get Coca Cola to go through it even if you leave it on there for 24 hours. There is sealing and sealing correctly believe me beading is often just a gimmick not proof that a surface is sealed.
Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
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Because it was through several contributing factors that caused the problem as I have already explained. If you also believe that if water beads on a floor it is sealed you are under a serious misaprehension! I can make a floor bead with a can of Mr Sheen if you want me to but it doesn't mean it is sealed. I can seal a piece of kitchen roll with one of my sealers and you won't be able to get Coca Cola to go through it even if you leave it on there for 24 hours. There is sealing and sealing correctly believe me beading is often just a gimmick not proof that a surface is sealed.
Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
Just run through the contributing factors with me again...I am a bit slow. ;D
The romans used Olive oil to seal their stone....so you could use Mr Sheen it would afford some protection to the stone but there are better products available.
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Just want to add my 2-pennath about De-coupling membranes...
Schluter Ditra matting was originally introduced to allow Tile Fixers to tile onto 'Green' concrete. It is only in the last 'few' years that its uses have expanded to include Under Floor Heating.
And...in my opinion, it is brilliant.
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Chris
I am not going through it again read the whole post and switch your selective reading mode off.
Romans did indeed seal stone with Olive Oil until they realised very quickly that it didn't last long, stained the stone and attracted dirt very quickly as it broke down! There again we used to start cars with starting handles, then keys and now lots of cars are keyless so what is your point?
Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics ltd
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I keep reading the whole post . The tiler is at fault . You tell me this was not the problem yet you cannot give me straight answer.
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I keep reading the whole post . The tiler is at fault . You tell me this was not the problem yet you cannot give me straight answer.
How many times do you want me to tell you Chris try and learn to accept what people say. The tiler wasn't at fault! The conservatory was just part of a £17k job. He wanted to commission the UFH over a three week period correctly and then finish sealing. She wanted it sealing first so she could use it over Xmas and she told him she would commission the UFH system herself. If he hadn't done it her way he wouldn't have got paid so he warned her then did it her way. That's why he couldn't be added with her because she paid a pro to do a job and then started telling him how to do it. I will tell you something else as well for free the tiles will crack next because there is no way she will commission the heating properly either.
Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
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I never understood the question >:(
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Right final shot at this,
Paving laid, (pre-sealed which should make no difference) then grouted.
He didn't leave enough time for the medium used to lay the paving to dry, (Limestone wicking up moisture) then grouted so again not enough time for the grouting to cure before starting to seal the paving, plus with the over kill of applying coat upon coat of sealer the whole area is saturated and not drying. Also the temperatures to low to seal anyway, with it being a conservatory to cold maybe ?Also maybe not taking off any excess sealer (pooling) so all leading to a fail?
Even if this is not the right answer, tell us the bloody answer ;D
So it was too cold to seal...everthing else you could disregard?
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Chris
I bet you were one of the annoying little kids at the back of the class weren't you? "But Miss" "But Miss" ;D ;D ;D ;D
Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
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Right final shot at this,
Paving laid, (pre-sealed which should make no difference) then grouted.
He didn't leave enough time for the medium used to lay the paving to dry, (Limestone wicking up moisture) then grouted so again not enough time for the grouting to cure before starting to seal the paving, plus with the over kill of applying coat upon coat of sealer the whole area is saturated and not drying. Also the temperatures to low to seal anyway, with it being a conservatory to cold maybe ?Also maybe not taking off any excess sealer (pooling) so all leading to a fail?
Even if this is not the right answer, tell us the bloody answer ;D
So it was too cold to seal...everthing else you could disregard?
Chris if that is aimed at me then Yes, to cold and damp paving/tiles both add up to a failure, then the overkill of sealer. Chris you will have seen this loads of times, and on exterior paving so why is this now going round & round in circles :(
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Right final shot at this,
Paving laid, (pre-sealed which should make no difference) then grouted.
He didn't leave enough time for the medium used to lay the paving to dry, (Limestone wicking up moisture) then grouted so again not enough time for the grouting to cure before starting to seal the paving, plus with the over kill of applying coat upon coat of sealer the whole area is saturated and not drying. Also the temperatures to low to seal anyway, with it being a conservatory to cold maybe ?Also maybe not taking off any excess sealer (pooling) so all leading to a fail?
Even if this is not the right answer, tell us the bloody answer ;D
So it was too cold to seal...everthing else you could disregard?
Chris if that is aimed at me then Yes, to cold and damp paving/tiles both add up to a failure, then the overkill of sealer. Chris you will have seen this loads of times, and on exterior paving so why is this now going round & round in circles :(
Roger not aimed at you at all.
The substrate was dry...according to Kevin
Pre-sealing with an impregnator does what exactly...
The correct way to apply a impregnating sealer is wet on wet till you are moping up the surplus...so over application is virtually impossible and would not hinder curing.
So that only leaves us with it being to cold.
The prize winning question was
Quote "What do you think went wrong or he did wrong?"
The answer is
"Why it went wrong is it was to cold to seal and what he did wrong was he allowed himself to be bullied by the homeowner".
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The substrate was dry...according to Kevin Was it?
Pre-sealing with an impregnator does what exactly... It helps on grout clean up and can stop grout causing picture framing!!!
The correct way to apply a impregnating sealer is wet on wet till you are moping up the surplus...so over application is virtually impossible and would not hinder curing. Where did you learn that? Or who says that?
So that only leaves us with it being to cold. Yes the ambient temeperature does affect sealer as does too many applications too soon after each other!!!
The prize winning question was
Quote "What do you think went wrong or he did wrong?"
The answer is
"Why it went wrong is it was to cold to seal and what he did wrong was he allowed himself to be bullied by the homeowner". I would have allowed the homeowner to do what thewy wanted as well if I thought I was'nt going to get paid that amount of money!!!!
Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
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The substrate was dry...according to Kevin Was it?
Pre-sealing with an impregnator does what exactly... It helps on grout clean up and can stop grout causing picture framing!!!
The correct way to apply a impregnating sealer is wet on wet till you are moping up the surplus...so over application is virtually impossible and would not hinder curing. Where did you learn that? Or who says that?
So that only leaves us with it being to cold. Yes the ambient temeperature does affect sealer as does too many applications too soon after each other!!!
The prize winning question was
Quote "What do you think went wrong or he did wrong?"
The answer is
"Why it went wrong is it was to cold to seal and what he did wrong was he allowed himself to be bullied by the homeowner". I would have allowed the homeowner to do what thewy wanted as well if I thought I was'nt going to get paid that amount of money!!!!
Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
I took it from this then you implied the substrate was dry hence Quote yourself "Who mentioned wet substrate?"
Manufacturers stipulate to apply "wet on wet " hence quote yourself "We all know most sealer manufacturers say you can reapply a second coat within a few hours but the fact is this is marketing bullpoop the sealer manufacturers put this because the others do. "
Quote yourself "Yes the ambient temperature does affect sealer as does too many applications too soon after each other"
Using an impregnating sealer properly it is impossible to apply to much...so the length of time it takes to dry(if you have applied the correct amount) is not governed by how many applications . Each substrate will absorb enough sealer to saturation point and drying time will vary. You cant apply a "Thin layer " so it drys quickly otherwise it will repel the next "thin Layer". It's not paint!
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Chris
I have had enough of your endless banter now! Please post the set of instructions for applying an impregnating sealer you are referring to and state which manufacterer stipulates this method of application
Kev Martin
Tilling Logistics Ltd
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Chris
I have had enough of your endless banter now! Please post the set of instructions for applying an impregnating sealer you are referring to and state which manufacterer stipulates this method of application
Kev Martin
Tilling Logistics Ltd
I don't have to Kevin you have far more experience of sealers than me and to quote you " "We all know most sealer manufacturers say you can reapply a second coat within a few hours but the fact is this is marketing bullpoop the sealer manufacturers put this because the others do. "
I take it you have witnessed/read these instructions yourself and I have no reason to doubt your word that these are the instruction on "method of application"
However i do disagree with your reason for why they are there. I would of thought that manufactures print these instructions so we get the best from these products and avoid any "contractor error" as in this scenario.
The reason for the second coat is to ensure that the substrate is completely saturated (to top up anything that has "soaked in")
As you correctly said in an earlier post Quote "I was not surprised to hear any of this after his explanation but having applied literally 100's of gallons of sealer to Limestone the most coats I have ever applied is 3 and that was only in two instances. I find most limestones accept 2 coats only!"
That is because you are more experienced than "our " contractor and you applied according to the manufactures instruction.
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hris
So this statement below of yours is from where?
""Manufacturers stipulate to apply "wet on wet ""
Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
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"Wet on wet" is mine ;D
Don't know if this stuff is any good but in thier "metheod of application " video. They apply "wet on wet " to the point of saturation. Then remove the excess. Could be just marketing bull...t?
http://www.aquamix.com.au/apply-aqua-mix%C2%AE-sealers
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Chris
Now you have selective watching and listening as well. I asked you to post the instructions where it says wet on wet and the long and short of it is "You Can't" This method only exists in your head and possibly your mate in the shed.
This thread is now closed
Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
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http://www.aquamix.com.au/apply-aqua-mix%C2%AE-sealers
1 min to 1m 40s gives clear "application methods" ie "wet on wet".
All i am trying to do here is point out that over application is impossible and too much too soon lengthened the curing process.
To recap you cannot apply too much if applied correctly. You cannot speed up the drying time by applying less ...otherwise you have not applied enough .
Do you agree?.
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???
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Do you agree ?
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Chris
I'll tell you what book a course and we will teach you the correct way and you will learn lots more.
Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
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Just run it by me briefly on here...a couple of paragraphs will do. I am not entirely confident that you know what you are talking about sometimes..saying that i know very little about tiling etc so i stand to be corrected.
The Correspondence I have had with you i have had so far regarding your "christmas prize question" , gutter vacuums , the best way to clean block paving etc I feel there has a been a certain amount of bovine excrement mixed with possibly a little fact.
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Just run it by me briefly on here...a couple of paragraphs will do. I am not entirely confident that you know what you are talking about sometimes..saying that i know very little about tiling etc so i stand to be corrected.
The Correspondence I have had with you i have had so far regarding your "christmas prize question" , gutter vacuums , the best way to clean block paving etc I feel there has a been a certain amount of bovine excrement mixed with possibly a little fact.
You clearly don't have anything better to occupy your little mind and quite frankly your last comment was uncalled for and borderline rude son! I will have sport all day long with you in fun but don't question something you know very little about!
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It is far from "sport " for me!
I am questioning something i know "a little about" from somebody who supposedly knows a lot more...I am trying to learn.
You set a question and invited anybody to answer ,you gave an answer I disagree with...I am asking you to quantify your answer so I might understand it better.
I do feel you are Bulls**ting me for some reason ...this is the impression I get.
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It is far from "sport " for me!
I am questioning something i know "a little about" from somebody who supposedly knows a lot more...I am trying to learn.
You set a question and invited anybody to answer ,you gave an answer I disagree with...I am asking you to quantify your answer so I might understand it more better.
I do feel you are Bulls**ting me for some reason ...this is the impression I get.
No Chris you are trying to push it. The original post had nothing to do with Aqua Mix Products but you keep asking about Enrich N Seal which is the most unique sealer in the world. So if you want to know specific things about that product I am happy to answer you. Lay each question out in an E Mail and send it to me personally and I will answer you! In the meantime whatever you think there are a lot of things held back on public forums. After all if we told you every trick in the trade it would affect us wouldn't it.
This is my final word on this! The rest is up to you! Note:!!! I am going away for the New Year and will not be back until Friday so if you want a reply to your e mail be patient!
Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
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I realise that the original post had nothing to do with Aqua mix products....it was you that bought it into the conversation!
I was merely asking about the best way to apply it incase I ever need to ...I thought i would get it from the horses mouth so to speak.
As you have pointed out previously, any instructions found on these products are mostly marketing bull....Your theory on this is further endorsed by Aqua mix on there application video for "sealers choice" were it clearly demonstrates my method of "wet on wet"
To the uninitiated like myself it's a minefield for using these products hence me questioning professionals like your self.
Going back to the original post I still feel that your answer to the question you set is flawed .
Happy new year ;D
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Interesting thread! I hope all those that mailed me personally are happy with their replies. and don't forget I will try and send samples where possible provided you just pay the postage or just ask me to add them free of charge to your trade orders!
The Staff and I would like to take this opportunity to wish each and everyone of you on the CIU
A Happy & Prosperous New Year
Kevin, Kath, Tony, David, Abi, Wayne and Dan
Tiling Logistics ltd
Marblelife Ltd
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Kevin do i get a commision on all these sales i'm creating for you? ;D
It is very interesting although we still seem to be going round in circles though. We are still no nearer figuring out what really went wrong with "our" contractors job in the original post.
Anybody else have an opinion on how to apply impregnating sealers...how do you/been instructed to apply?
Ps I think i am "banned" from posting on the "Hello christopher" thread.
Kevin hi-jacked it and i get banned from it...how rude it's addressed to me. It's got my name on it ;D ;D ;D ;D
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What is an impregnating sealer - is it an Australian man who dresses up like an Australian lady ? ???
Soryy if I've offended those who happen to read this post or even their victimised offspring ;)
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Kevin do i get a commision on all these sales i'm creating for you? ;D
It is very interesting although we still seem to be going round in circles though. We are still no nearer figuring out what really went wrong with "our" contractors job in the original post.
Anybody else have an opinion on how to apply impregnating sealers...how do you/been instructed to apply?
Ps I think i am "banned" from posting on the "Hello christopher" thread.
Kevin hi-jacked it and i get banned from it...how rude it's addressed to me. It's got my name on it ;D ;D ;D ;D
[/quote
I was shown, on a course in London, to "Flood" the stone with impregnating sealers, then 'squeegee' it off. I am not saying this is right or wrong but that is what was being shown back then, about 6 years ago. Personally, I think any sealer should have some time to penitrate and act before being wiped off. On the brand of sealer I prefer, one of the sealers recommend that "a second coat to be applied before the first coat dries" ie wet on wet. Hope this helps a bit??
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I have followed this thread with interest and it has prompted the question..."Has anyone ever been on the Dry Treat Course?" Apparently, applied 'correctly', Dry Treat lasts 15 years!! There is also another one being banded around, I think it is called Bullet Proof, which also offers a 15 year guarantee.
What I am getting around to saying is, how different can two sealers be applied that gives one a 15 year guarantee and another method of application which opens up a debate such as this with no real solution to how it is supposed to be applied?
Kevin, for the interest of this thread, what was the sealer that the tiler used in the first place? I am sure if we knew, others that use the same sealer may have the correct method of application.
I have been looking at my sealers of choice (Lantania from Italy) there are varying methods from the same company in their instructions. I tend to follow the recommended way of sealing as it is a damn sight easier than taking it all off at doing it right the second time.
One school of thought is, at least the tiler 'sealed' it in the first place, most would either give it a quick wipe over and bugger off or, not bother at all.
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So i am not so much of a muppet...I know it's debateable ;D! ;D ;D
Rob has been taught this method, I myself use this method. Aqua mix recommend this method in there sealers choice video (although as Kevin rightly points out could be marketing bull****)
DuPont's Bullet proof is applied this way. (DuPont should know a thing or two)
Our "skilled tile fixer " must have been thinking this way. As he applied the sealer "wet on wet".
Quote"put coat 2 on 24 hours after grouting starting at 9am and completed it by 10am and then he applied 3 more additional coats leaving 1-2 Hours between coats"
My mate in his shed uses this method.
So thats 6 of us ...Anybody else?
Quote "The second factor was the grout had not cured so that was still wet which exacerbated the problem"
Qoute "The guy is a skilled tile fixer as am I. Who mentioned wet substrate?"
Kevin you say the substrate was dry but the grouting wet. Surely if the grout is wet whats directly underneath it will also be wet/damp/contain high levels of moisture (bit like a wet dish cloth on a draining board ;D) ?
How long had the floor been laid before sealing commenced ?
How long do you generally leave tiled floors to dry before sealing (in cold weather with no heating?)
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I am a Dry Treat distributor and approved applicator of their sealers.
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I am a Dry Treat distributor and approved applicator of their sealers.
How does applying Dry treat differ from applying other sealers? Do you apply wet on wet?
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Dry treats are available from most pet shops ;D
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So i am not so much of a muppet...I know it's debateable ;D! ;D ;D
Rob has been taught this method, I myself use this method. Aqua mix recommend this method in there sealers choice video (although as Kevin rightly points out could be marketing bull****)
DuPont's Bullet proof is applied this way. (DuPont should know a thing or two)
Our "skilled tile fixer " must have been thinking this way. As he applied the sealer "wet on wet".
Quote"put coat 2 on 24 hours after grouting starting at 9am and completed it by 10am and then he applied 3 more additional coats leaving 1-2 Hours between coats"
My mate in his shed uses this method.
So thats 6 of us ...Anybody else?
Quote "The second factor was the grout had not cured so that was still wet which exacerbated the problem"
Qoute "The guy is a skilled tile fixer as am I. Who mentioned wet substrate?"
Kevin you say the substrate was dry but the grouting wet. Surely if the grout is wet whats directly underneath it will also be wet/damp/contain high levels of moisture (bit like a wet dish cloth on a draining board ;D) ?
How long had the floor been laid before sealing commenced ?
How long do you generally leave tiled floors to dry before sealing (in cold weather with no heating?)
CleaningSystemsUK
I would like to hear your comments on this? You will/do have a greater insight into this type of work than most .
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Found another one...is that 7
http://www.universealsealants.co.uk/MSDS/TM/Universeal_Tech_Meth_Ultimate_Stone_Sealer.pdf
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8
http://lithofin-uk.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/tech-sheets/stain-stop.pdf
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I find with the Dry Treat products that different techniques work for different stones.
For example on Caithness Sandstone or other very porous surfaces we find that when using Dry Treat Enhance Plus or StainProof that a very thin coat of about 1/3 the prescribed application with a roller left overnight then applying the remaining 2/3rds as a heavy application left 2 hours then buffed off works best as a wet on wet washes the sealer too far into the tiles.
On polishd stone/tiles however a wet on wet approach is better then buffing off the excess.
With their water based products we would apply, allow to dry the apply a second coat.
In some cases we apply their water based sealer first as a primer coat followed by enhance plus then finishing with stain proof. This is rare due to the amount of time required as it is 24 hrs between each product. Usually we only do this type of work when this technique is specified by the architect and they want enhancing and the 15 year protection of the StainProof.
Overall my preference with water based fluoropolymer sealers is to apply, allow to dry then apply second coat. With alcohol or solvent based siloxanes like DryTreat StainProof and Enhance plus it varies with the stone/tile.
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So we need to know what "our " contractor was applying and to what to determine what went wrong ???
Kevin says it is immaterial what it was sealed with!
It's all very technical now ..i am confused (then again thats easy!)
CleaningSystemsUK what do think went wrong?
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So we need to know what "our " contractor was applying and to what to determine what went wrong? ???
It's all very technical now!
Personally, I think there is enough evidence to suggest wet on wet is the way to go. Does anyone know of a sealer that states wet on dry? That would probably lead us to find out what the original selaer was that has lead to all the confusion??
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CleaningSystemsUK what do think went wrong?
Kevin has already told you. The coats were applied too quickly.
We have had this before. Basically we sealed the bottom third of the tiles rather than the top third. The work was carried out in January on a floor with no DPM. The sealer was applied too soon as the customer moved the deadline forward for their furniture delivery. This in turn meant that the first application didn't cure fully and the second coat 24 hrs later just pushed it further in. We ended up having to wait until May before we could revisit, clean and put a final coat on to get the desired results.
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CleaningSystemsUK what do think went wrong?
Kevin has already told you. The coats were applied too quickly.
We have had this before. Basically we sealed the bottom third of the tiles rather than the top third. The work was carried out in January on a floor with no DPM. The sealer was applied too soon as the customer moved the deadline forward for their furniture delivery. This in turn meant that the first application didn't cure fully and the second coat 24 hrs later just pushed it further in. We ended up having to wait until May before we could revisit, clean and put a final coat on to get the desired results.
Kevin received the call start of december that,s when question was set ...you say the work was carried out January?
So the floor was wet? You say no damp proof membraine ...Kevin said it had underfloor heating.Is the DPM supposed to be under the underfloor heating or on top?
I am even more confused ??? ???
Were you the contractor? ???
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Now I am all confused too... ??? To be honest, it doesn't take much these days ;D
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I am even more confused ??? ???
Yes you are.
Were you the contractor? ???
No I wasn't.
I was just giving another example with similar outcome.
Our job was old flagstones in a house from the late 18th century laid on ashes and no DPM in those days.
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Ok back on track now ;D I was lost for a bit.
We could disregard your job tho' as you problem was a damp floor and too cold. ie no membrane and it's winter.
Our contractor did not have a damp floor and I take it there would have been a membrane due to the fact it had underfloor heating (or the underfloor heating would have a acted as a membrane)
So we still are no nearer at solving the mystery ???
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I am even more confused ??? ???
Yes you are.
Were you the contractor? ???
No I wasn't.
I was just giving another example with similar outcome.
Our job was old flagstones in a house from the late 18th century laid on ashes and no DPM in those days.
CSUK ...So, you can see I am confused...help me out then, all I am seeing are instructions for wet on wet...on what basis have you reached the conclusion about my confusion?? ;)
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I am referring to Chris's confusion.
I dont understand your confusion.
The only confusion is the confusion created by folk getting all confused which is now confusing me.
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I am referring to Chris's confusion.
I dont understand your confusion.
The only confusion is the confusion created by folk getting all confused which is now confusing me.
Can I just seal my floors like I have done for the last eleventeen years
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Are we trying to forget about this ;D
1200 views and nobody understands about how certain sealers are applied? Yet plenty of people are out there applying them.
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I nearly forgot about this...back to the top. Does anybody know how to apply impregnating sealers? I might have to go on Kevins coarse then.
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I nearly forgot about this...back to the top. Does anybody know how to apply impregnating sealers? I might have to go on Kevins coarse then.
It appears there is no way of applying other than what it says on your specific bottle Chris. Has the actual answer to the original post been give? What is the professionals answer to the problem? Is there a "wrong" way to apply an impregnating seal?
The answer be be only available by attending a course?? In that case, what a very clever original post...
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I only use one coat but might use several jumpers - I'm not as thick skinned as some ;)
Chris - don't you ever get bored ;D
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I only use one coat but might use several jumpers - I'm not as thick skinned as some ;)
Chris - don't you ever get bored ;D
Not when I feel someone is taking me for an idiot.
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I nearly forgot about this...back to the top. Does anybody know how to apply impregnating sealers? I might have to go on Kevins coarse then.
Chris
We only run courses we don't do a coarse cos that would be rough! I am in Germany until Sunday. But as usual you can always e mail me with your problems! ;D
Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
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Not very good with spelling so I don't do e-mails...I do have a problem tho'.
I am struggling with how to apply impregnating sealers. How do you apply them correctly..I have asked on the forum and no body seems to know. The manufacturers don't help they will tell us the opposite so their products fail.
Can you help?
Ps That was quite (;D) funny....for you.
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I can't believe this thread is still going on!!!
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Somebody must know?
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Somebody must know?
Can't understand why no one can post the answer, or is it that all manufacturers have different methods? ???
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I can't believe this thread is still going on!!!
Suits me Roger sealers sales and course bookings are at an all time high. Even Lantania Sales have increased. What do you want to do about your prize?
Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
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I can't believe this thread is still going on!!!
Suits me Roger sealers sales and course bookings are at an all time high. Even Lantania Sales have increased. What do you want to do about your prize?
Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
...and how do you instruct your buyers to use all these sealers? ???
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You would sell even more if you knew how to apply it ;D
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I can't believe this thread is still going on!!!
Suits me Roger sealers sales and course bookings are at an all time high. Even Lantania Sales have increased. What do you want to do about your prize?
Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
Kevin, I'll give you a call next week if that's ok, happy to leave the prize until I come up.
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You would sell even more if you knew how to apply it ;D
Looks like we will never know Chris. Maybe they don't really know?? ;D
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All people who have been on our course were shown the correct way to apply sealers both Topical & Impregnating or did you fall asleep during that bit?
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Kevin ..do you get much of that?
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Kevin ..do you get much of that?
Chris....obviously!! ;D
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Kevin ..do you get much of that?
Chris....obviously!! ;D
But no answer to the question. Its time to give up I think Chris??
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Never ...I'm still breathing.
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Never ...I'm still breathing.
I get it now...ITS A TRAP! You have to go on a course to find out, but try not to fall asleep.
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I had a call yesterday from a very experienced tiler saying he had put 5 coats of impregnating sealer on some stone he had laid in a new conservatory and it still wasn't beading. It wasn't Aqua Mix, LTP or our Pro Sealer but that makes no difference really. It was a sealer that is well known and performs reasonably well in tests we have done and would have done if used correctly.
The stone was a fairly porous Limestone and was 32M2! I asked how long he had left between coats and what he had applied the sealer with? His reply was he used a Paint Pad to apply and he had presealed before grouting and then put coat 2 on 24 hours after grouting starting at 9am and completed it by 10am and then he applied 3 more additional coats leaving 1-2 Hours between coats he did a final test at 4.30pm and it was still not beading and the stone was absorbing some water.
I was not surprised to hear any of this after his explanation but having applied literally 100's of gallons of sealer to Limestone the most coats I have ever applied is 3 and that was only in two instances. I find most limestones accept 2 coats only!
What do you think went wrong or he did wrong?
A Prize for the best most complete explanation!!!
Jamie CSUK NO YOU CAN'T ENTER!!!!
Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
Just to remind ourselves. Somebody help me out ..
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I had a call yesterday from a very experienced tiler saying he had put 5 coats of impregnating sealer on some stone he had laid in a new conservatory and it still wasn't beading. It wasn't Aqua Mix, LTP or our Pro Sealer but that makes no difference really. It was a sealer that is well known and performs reasonably well in tests we have done and would have done if used correctly.
The stone was a fairly porous Limestone and was 32M2! I asked how long he had left between coats and what he had applied the sealer with? His reply was he used a Paint Pad to apply and he had presealed before grouting and then put coat 2 on 24 hours after grouting starting at 9am and completed it by 10am and then he applied 3 more additional coats leaving 1-2 Hours between coats he did a final test at 4.30pm and it was still not beading and the stone was absorbing some water.
I was not surprised to hear any of this after his explanation but having applied literally 100's of gallons of sealer to Limestone the most coats I have ever applied is 3 and that was only in two instances. I find most limestones accept 2 coats only!
What do you think went wrong or he did wrong?
A Prize for the best most complete explanation!!!
Jamie CSUK NO YOU CAN'T ENTER!!!!
Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
Just to remind ourselves. Somebody help me out ..
I was thinking about this today as I sealed a slate floor.
I sponged the sealer on as I have done for years, two coats, first one done on Saturday, second today.
Is that wrong?
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Spot on
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There you go Chris...an answer.
However, the answer is wrong really. You try applying a sealer such as Lithofin Slate Seal or any other oil/spirit based sealer with a sponge!! It might be ok with water based, but not oil/spirit based. So, back to the drawing board. I am sure the original poster will have worked something out by now, after all, he has an answer for everything! ;D
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So, do we have an answer yet? What should the correct method be? Come on Kevin, you started it.
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Well????
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Got to leave the man alone this week ..he is on holiday with his wife. It would be bad manners. I was bought up better than that!
We can start again when he returns ;D ;D
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Got to leave the man alone this week ..he is on holiday with his wife. It would be bad manners. I was bought up better than that!
We can start again when he returns ;D ;D
Leave HIM alone...Bad Manners?? Have you seen his rants to me on the other thread that Graeme started?
He was ranting away around midnight last night. If I was on holiday with my Mrs, the LAST person on my mind would be Kevin.
I hope it rains where ever he is. I have no idea what is wrong with him, he thinks he is the only person that can have any opinions??? Does he own this forum?
Lets face it, he started this thread weeks and weeks ago and never gave the answer that we were all waiting for, I posted that I applied a seal with a sponge, Tony said "Spot on" Well he is wrong, how could a sealer, other than water based, be applied by sponge??
They are not as smart as they think they are Chris. :)
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Got to leave the man alone this week ..he is on holiday with his wife. It would be bad manners. I was bought up better than that!
We can start again when he returns ;D ;D
Leave HIM alone...Bad Manners?? Have you seen his rants to me on the other thread that Graeme started?
He was ranting away around midnight last night. If I was on holiday with my Mrs, the LAST person on my mind would be Kevin.
I hope it rains where ever he is. I have no idea what is wrong with him, he thinks he is the only person that can have any opinions??? Does he own this forum?
Lets face it, he started this thread weeks and weeks ago and never gave the answer that we were all waiting for, I posted that I applied a seal with a sponge, Tony said "Spot on" Well he is wrong, how could a sealer, other than water based, be applied by sponge??
They are not as smart as they think they are Chris. :)
I actually leave for the Airport to go on holiday in an hour! I was bored last night! Do you genuinely believe I would sit on holiday reading your bleating moronic posts trying to defend yourself and justify some of the stupid statements you have made on this forum ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Got to leave the man alone this week ..he is on holiday with his wife. It would be bad manners. I was bought up better than that!
We can start again when he returns ;D ;D
Leave HIM alone...Bad Manners?? Have you seen his rants to me on the other thread that Graeme started?
He was ranting away around midnight last night. If I was on holiday with my Mrs, the LAST person on my mind would be Kevin.
I hope it rains where ever he is. I have no idea what is wrong with him, he thinks he is the only person that can have any opinions??? Does he own this forum?
Lets face it, he started this thread weeks and weeks ago and never gave the answer that we were all waiting for, I posted that I applied a seal with a sponge, Tony said "Spot on" Well he is wrong, how could a sealer, other than water based, be applied by sponge??
They are not as smart as they think they are Chris. :)
I actually leave for the Airport to go on holiday in an hour! I was bored last night! Do you genuinely believe I would sit on holiday reading your bleating moronic posts trying to defend yourself and justify some of the stupid statements you have made on this forum ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Was that last message to yourself Kevin??
You seem to enjoy my "bleating and moronic posts, you stay up all night to read and reply to them"
Stupid Statements eh? Not half has stupid has your rants, grow up Kevin.
I hope you enjoy your holiday, you sound like you need it you bad tempered know-it-all.
Holiday in February eh? Must be cheap :D
Cant wait for you to return, I will miss your rudeness and aggression.
The forum will be a much nicer place without you...BYE :-*
STILL NO ANSWER FROM HIM THOUGH ;D ;D ;D and he calls ME stupid :-\
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Keeping out of this personal tiff, but I thought I answered the question asked a couple of weeks ago correctly?
or have I missed something?
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Keeping out of this personal tiff, but I thought I answered the question asked a couple of weeks ago correctly?
or have I missed something?
Ahhh, right, I will have a look for that, sorry Roger, I assume the answer was verified by The Almighty?
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Right final shot at this,
Paving laid, (pre-sealed which should make no difference) then grouted.
He didn't leave enough time for the medium used to lay the paving to dry, (Limestone wicking up moisture) then grouted so again not enough time for the grouting to cure before starting to seal the paving, plus with the over kill of applying coat upon coat of sealer the whole area is saturated and not drying. Also the temperatures to low to seal anyway, with it being a conservatory to cold maybe ?Also maybe not taking off any excess sealer (pooling) so all leading to a fail?
Even if this is not the right answer, tell us the bloody answer ;D
Roger..
I found your answer, so, first of all...the REAL answer is the Tiler is not quiet the professional that "The Almighty" claims he is.
The Job was clearly rushed and the lack of knowledge didn't help.
HOWEVER, Chris's question is/was....How do you correctly apply sealer?
The temperature of the working area needs taking into consideration.
Adhesive dried (most modern adhesives are 'trafficable' after only 2 hours) fully cured 24 hours and then groutable.
Grouts, again, similar to adhesives in that they are cement based, I would suggest a further 24 hours before applying the sealer.
Now, this is where it gets interesting. Applying coat after coat of sealer, saturating the area and not allowing each coat to dry (Rogers words).
On a course in London which I did, they suggested flooding (saturating) the area and letting the sealer go into the stone, then wiping off the excess. I think the question is;
How are sealers properly applied?
I suggest water based sealers can be used as above and the excess removed with a sponge.
Now, oil/spirit based sealers will not behave in the same way using a sponge...so, what would you use Roger, (or anyone else who is still following this thread!!) to apply a spirit/Oil based seal?
You may remember I posted on here about using a sponge, Tony's reply was..."SPOT ON."
It later became apparent that (according to The Almighty) that was a joke! With jokes like that, it looks like Michael Mcintyres' career is safe!!
I think there are still some questions that need answering to avoid any costly mistakes.
Just for the record, has anyone ever done a Terracotta Job?
Cleaned the floor...let it dry.
Oil the floor using a sponge and Boiled Linseed Oil??? This is where the fun can begin. SOME sponges spontaneously combust...so, my advice is..get that sponge as far away from the job as possible, or you risk burning your customers house down :o
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SOME sponges spontaneously combust...s
This is something us wood finishers are well used to.
Just stick the sponge in water when you are done.
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SOME sponges spontaneously combust...s
This is something us wood finishers are well used to.
Just stick the sponge in water when you are done.
That is what I do too. I just thought it was worth pointing out to others who may not know. :)
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Rob
All you have done is try to hijack the thread. It started out as just a bit of fun and a small competition before Xmas a little way of us giving to forum members as well as sponsoring it.
Yes I did say spot on it becomes a little boring after a while because when you have a bit of huff and puff on another thread you popped back to this one.
Kevin "the almighty" as you like to call him has given a lot of his free time to this forum and free advice to anyone over the phone and all under no obligation to buy anything.
And just FYI Kevin has gone away in february as he has just had cancer treatment if thats ok with you! or maybe you want to have a dig at that to perhaps it wouldn't surprise me in the least if you did have a sarcastic reply.
So what is it you would like Rob? Kevin to pull of the forum all together sponsership and all?
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Rob
All you have done is try to hijack the thread. It started out as just a bit of fun and a small competition before Xmas a little way of us giving to forum members as well as sponsoring it.
Yes I did say spot on it becomes a little boring after a while because when you have a bit of huff and puff on another thread you popped back to this one.
Kevin "the almighty" as you like to call him has given a lot of his free time to this forum and free advice to anyone over the phone and all under no obligation to buy anything.
And just FYI Kevin has gone away in february as he has just had cancer treatment if thats ok with you! or maybe you want to have a dig at that to perhaps it wouldn't surprise me in the least if you did have a sarcastic reply.
So what is it you would like Rob? Kevin to pull of the forum all together sponsership and all?
I have opinions that Kevin does not like.
He also blasts others that also have an opinion.
Why is he so aggressive all the time?
Why does only HE have the answers?
He too could learn from others.
It may come as a surprise, HE DOES NOT KNOW IT ALL, although he thinks he does.
Have a look at his rants, see for yourself.
As for hijacking threads!!! Take another look!
...and no, I would not want Kevin to pull off the forum....I have said MANY times (selective reading) I respect his knowledge...that does not mean I have to like him. It is not only me that thinks he is a little over the top sometimes, it is just that I tell him and he doesn't like it does he?...he simply cannot handle anyone having a pop.
Even your replies are getting nasty...good teacher i suppose! If either of you had a sense of humour, you could see that I am winding Kevin up most of the time, sadly it would appear that he has had a sense of humour by-pass.
For the record, I am a donator to cancer charities, so I would like you to pass on my best wishes to Kevin for a speedy recovery.
It may be just easier for him/me/you/the forum if I just leave him to his rants...BUT...the deal is, he leaves my advice alone too and stops the aggressive answers to other peoples theories, ok?
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Rob,
Here is the answer I gave in December last year
"Paving laid, (pre-sealed which should make no difference) then grouted.
He didn't leave enough time for the medium used to lay the paving to dry, (Limestone wicking up moisture) then grouted so again not enough time for the grouting to cure before starting to seal the paving, plus with the over kill of applying coat upon coat of sealer the whole area is saturated and not drying. Also the temperatures to low to seal anyway, with it being a conservatory to cold maybe ?Also maybe not taking off any excess sealer (pooling) so all leading to a fail?"
So for me it was just to cold & damp to seal anyway.
Was the tiler good at his job? I don't know maybe just got caught out on this occasion not allowing for the lower temperatures etc.
Your quote Rob
"Now, this is where it gets interesting. Applying coat after coat of sealer, saturating the area and not allowing each coat to dry (Rogers words)."
Coat after coat when it is to damp & cold to seal anyway, as it is not going to cure is going to lead to a fail IMO
How I seal is with either a brush or have on occasions used a roller, but prefer using a brush for both solvent based or water based. Never used a sponge to seal, may try it this year though.
Cloth or sponge off the excess, seems to work for me.
We won't start sealing till the spring arrives, which should give you a fighting chance, dryer, warmer weather etc, as we only seal exterior paving anyway.
Re the spontaneously combust stuff, we also do a lot of wood finishing so some of our solvent based oils can do this, but we have a container with water in it, and put all used cloths in this.
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Rob,
Here is the answer I gave in December last year
"Paving laid, (pre-sealed which should make no difference) then grouted.
He didn't leave enough time for the medium used to lay the paving to dry, (Limestone wicking up moisture) then grouted so again not enough time for the grouting to cure before starting to seal the paving, plus with the over kill of applying coat upon coat of sealer the whole area is saturated and not drying. Also the temperatures to low to seal anyway, with it being a conservatory to cold maybe ?Also maybe not taking off any excess sealer (pooling) so all leading to a fail?"
So for me it was just to cold & damp to seal anyway.
Was the tiler good at his job? I don't know maybe just got caught out on this occasion not allowing for the lower temperatures etc.
Your quote Rob
"Now, this is where it gets interesting. Applying coat after coat of sealer, saturating the area and not allowing each coat to dry (Rogers words)."
Coat after coat when it is to damp & cold to seal anyway, as it is not going to cure is going to lead to a fail IMO
How I seal is with either a brush or have on occasions used a roller, but prefer using a brush for both solvent based or water based. Never used a sponge to seal, may try it this year though.
Cloth or sponge off the excess, seems to work for me.
We won't start sealing till the spring arrives, which should give you a fighting chance, dryer, warmer weather etc, as we only seal exterior paving anyway.
Re the spontaneously combust stuff, we also do a lot of wood finishing so some of our solvent based oils can do this, but we have a container with water in it, and put all used cloths in this.
Cheers Roger, that was the post I found.
Totally agree with the temperature related problems too, I think some of the seal manufacturers give guidelines to the temps and when to use the seal.
The point I am trying to get to is not the problem with THIS particular job, but, HOW the correct method of sealing is done. i.e. Is a sponge acceptable? Is a brush ok to use? Is there some hidden methods that others use that the rest of us don't know about?
I have been sealing floors for years and use all the above methods plus those little paint rollers too. Some methods create a foam and I am sure that foam is not good practice in the eyes of the manufacturer. So, although the answer to the original question has been answered (well done...what did you win?) The study continues with...What is the best way to seal a floor....Lets start with a oil/spirt based sealer....Is a sponge universally acceptable?
Having done the crawshaws course, they advise to seal calcium based floor with stone soap, again, I have taken this on board and seal Marble, Limestone and Travertine with stone soap and also encourage the client to clean with stone soap too. Stone Soap is relatively inexpensive, around £25 for 5ltrs from crawshaws (I have seen some on ebay at £80 plus P&P!!) 5ltrs will do a small county! I decant into 1ltr bottles and sell them to the customer when I have finished.
Sorry for going on so long but I hope that we can all learn something from this thread.
over to you....
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There you go again another little dig aye!
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There you go again another little dig aye!
Eh? Where? ???
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Come on Tony, do not accuse me of something and then go into hiding??? ???
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"(I have seen some on ebay at £80 plus P&P!!)"
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Again this is out of hand!
The forum is for members and intended to help and share - please do not talk to each other in this way! It will only result in a ban and drive members away.
Keep it clean and remember how you come across when typing on a forum, what one member writes can be construed in another way and these things escalate, when neither party wants it to.
Locked.