Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Morph on March 13, 2006, 08:56:14 pm
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Not just for Squeaky Clean, but for anyone with objections to wfp.
A Topic thread dedicated to them.
Questions & Answers
Of course no segregation suggested. All can join in, after all, most who use wfp are experienced with a mop and squeegee, and I'm sure some are in the opposite category.
Objections, complaints, criticisms....Fire away.
But be prepared to consider the answers...
A wise saying: The mind is like a parachute............it's no good unless it's open!
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WFP rules! ;D
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Gotta start somewhere
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Hmmm...
Not many objections then? :o
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It's really a bit of a worn out topic and the 'fors' and 'against' will go on and on and on.
Personally, I'll use whatever I think is best for the job taking into account the customer and the job being done.
And .... I've yet to see with my own eyes a wfp job that is the perfection I often see posted and I don't just mean from the jobs we do, but jobs done by other companies/wfp's.
I'm not saying it is impossible, it's just that I've yet to see it.
A few weeks back I had a wander into the Grand Hotel in Brighton (the one that got blown up by the IRA) during the afternoon as the windows of the whole building had been done that morning with a huge cherry picker and wfp.
I won't write anymore except to add that if I was the manager, I'd be demanding a refund.
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So, was that down to the tools, or the operator, Ross?
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My mate and I have this conversation on a daily basis, he is a trad wc and has been for over 20 years.
He has done nothing but rubbish the pole, but about 8 weeks ago his hernia started playing him up and his windows started to suffer, so i went and picked him up and did all his windows on one round in four hours which usually take a day and a bit to do.
He was happy to watch me do all of his windows and him collect the money for two or three cleans.
He then had the cheek to to tell me that his customers didnt like the pole and they wanted them doing the old way.
I picked up 25 new customers on his round and they have since rang me and told me to tell him that they dont want him to do the windows the old way anymore.
When I told him he was furious.
He has since admitted that the pole is the way forward, but he like so many wc in this area have said they are not prepared to spend the money on a set up to clean windows that they can clean for next to nothing using the trad methods.
I think thats how a lot of wc in this area think.
But I am not bothered, I'm still picking up more and more new customers every week because a lot of new houses that are being built in the are three storey and they are not in a position to do them.
Ok its not been easy, I started back in November but I have now got a decent round and charge decent money for it, and I havent bought any work.
Dont get me wrong I used to love doing the windows the trad way, but from a business point of view, its the dogs danglies.
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I wan to stand up for SQUEEKS!!!
Good on yer mate.
He's like all these preserved Steam Railways!!!!
I Honestley love the old steam trains. But I can't see GNER going back to them!!
Just like you won't see Offices going back to the typing pools!!!!
But I bet no-one can type as fast as my mum can!!
What about this
THE SQEEKY CLEAN MUSEUM OF TRADITIONAL WINDOW CLEANING.
Sorry if there is a touch of sarcasm but serioslly it would be a shame to see the old traditional methods die out.
I, for 1 wil NOT be throwing away my Squeegee and scrim!!
Even though I am going WFP
David Salkeld
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I will be honest I still have the old kit in the van and I do use it still, more so when i do the insides.
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Though I do most with wfp I allways carry my ladders on the van, And I still clean a few traditional. This is only on windows that have bad frames or access issues.
I fully intented to do both. But wfp is done on 90% to 95% of my round.
Nel.
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Sorry if there is a touch of sarcasm but serioslly it would be a shame to see the old traditional methods die out.
I, for 1 wil NOT be throwing away my Squeegee and scrim!!
Even though I am going WFP
David Salkeld
The old traditional methods of using a squeegie and scrim will not die out, the ladder on the other hand will be used less often, and will to most people be a tool of the past.
At times you will see a ladder being used to clean windows, because there are windows that only a ladder can be used on, but these times will become less and less.
If you look back only 5 years, how many window cleaner did you see using a wfp system, I bet it was none, but if you did see one, it probably being used by a commercial window cleaner.
Now look around today, they are everywere, from big citys down to small hamlets.
What do you think the growth of wfp users will be in the next 5 or 10 years will be.
The wfp system is here, and it's here to stay, the biggest danger to window cleaners will be they waited to long to get one.
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Thanks Dave Salkeld, nice to see someone realises I'm not blowing hot air on this, I'm genuinely happy with my work and feel no need to change it at great cost.
Glad you can see I'm just quoting people and defending myself, not ranting as some may think. :)
Ross, speaking the truth from a wfp'ers perspective as usual.
Not biased by the money he's spent.
...and William, why is it I have to have one?
I'm doing better now others are getting it.... ???
I don't get it.(if you know what I mean!)
Rog.(why am I still responding to this?) :-\
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i'm fanatical about my wfp (quicker and safer)
however i still do bottoms trad method and will never give that up
both have there good points
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Hi Pj
So, was that down to the tools, or the operator, Ross?
I've also looked at the Metropole, The Brighton Hilton, The Ship Hotel, American Express, Asda's and a lot of offices and quite a few houses.
Each time I've thought the same and I do accept that these places cannot be really be done safely (or probably at anywhere near the same low price) trad style but my point is the quality of the window cleaning is not good.
We now do one house (mansion) which is a recently re furbished Georgian place owned by a bloke who owns a tv station. He'd tried 6 different wfp companies/traders and each time he thought the job was rubbish. He phoned us to do the job originally just once to see if having the job done traditionally would produce a better result.
After we'd been on the job 20 minutes he said to come back every month. The job is a 3 hour job for 3 of us.
He pays double to have it done trad style. ££££'s for us.
We use wfp a lot but I love those type of jobs. We've gained loads of them including a huge prestigious grade 1 listed block of flats which is also worth £££££'s every month because of wfp and bad results.
Not only that the managing agents were livid about wfp not only because of the water everywhere which in winter lays on the walk ways for days and then gets walked all over the nice new marble floors in the indoor common ways, but because where the water runs down the walls, it leaves streaks. Whereas left to nature, it tends to all weather all the at the same time. That may not sound much but £4 500 000 had just been spent doing the place up.
Whether it's the product or the operator, I don't know and in truth, I don't care.
For those customers happy to accept wfp- then we'll use that if we can, but for quite a few, doing it trad has been the biggest money earner yet. So I hope more w/c's go over to wfp and refuse to use trad methods ever again. ;D
From my point of veiw, we can't loose.
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See, I wasn't making it up? ;D
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I use trad every day, what I don't use are ladders. Access only and the occasional bit of initial cleaning.
Ross has problems with WFP that are more related to his location than the kind of job it can do, and I can show anyone who cares to look, at least a dozen houses I'll be doing tomorrow that come up absolutely blinding, and I really do mean they will be spotless.
Lets (just for the sake of arguement) skew the viewpoint a little......
Lets just say that for many decades WFP has been the norm for window cleaning, how will customers new to these newfangled ladders and squeegees view the change, what complaints might we see??............
I'm not happy with the way those ladders mark my walls, and you've put the ladder on my new sills and scratched them too >:(
Why is the glass so smeary when the sun shines on them? That WFP used to get my georgian windows gleaming.
Why are there marks and runs on the glass? The old window cleaner never used to have that.
My windows are getting dirty much quicker now, I wish you'd go back to the old WFP.
I don't like the fact you are now looking in all my upstairs windows off your ladders.
Why aren't you cleaning the frames anymore? They always looked so good when you did it the old way :'(
Trad boys don't need to defend against the above, I've only listed it for the purposes of perspective.
Overall, on the majority of work, WFP will give a better overall finish, if you can't get it right, you are doing something wrong.
Ad the bottom line is the fact you will earn more money, to be perfectly honest, that is why I go to work...to earn money, I'm not doing it for love.
The ladder is soon to be a tool of the past, WFP is here to stay and will replace ladders (apart from access) But WFP will never replace traditional window cleaning, and I don't I've read anything from anybody that suggests it will either.
Ian
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...and William, why is it I have to have one?
I'm doing better now others are getting it.... ???
I don't get it.(if you know what I mean!)
Rog.(why am I still responding to this?) :-\
Rog
You have never used a wfp system yet you always rubbish its abilitys, I have done window cleaning the trad method and now I use a wfp.
Yes I have made mistakes and at first some of my work was below standard, but by learning from my mistakes and help from other wfp users, I now can clean windows as good if not better than trad methods, I don't get runs - smears or spots anymore, I know this because I do the inside of a lot of my clients and I can see the results.
I also clean more houses per day than I use too, when I used ladders and I was younger and fitter then.
Yes you will get more customers because you use ladders, because like you, there are a lot of people who don't like change.
If you do a bad job then I don't think that these customers would be loyal and stay with you, they would move onto another cleaner as soon as they could, the same applies to wfp users, if you work is not up to scratch them be prepared to lose your customers.
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Ladders marks from ladder mits? Nope - none.
Brush bashes against the frames from wfp - yes. Bits of glass missed on the 3rd floor by wfp - yes. Outlines of bird doo's - yes.
'My windows are getting dirty quicker' - that's a feeble arguement. Sorry but it is.
We do a lot of windows monthly that could go 2 monthly or longer. Anyway, profit..... regular work ..... so if you use wfp are you going to change to 2 monthly from 1 monthly because the windows are cleaner for longer?
I could go on. On the example I gave how would you solve the problem of water everywhere?
I do agree with wfp our profit has increased by about 30%. The headaches thought have gone from almost none to a constant background thing.
The ladder is not yet a tool of the past. Saying it will be is like saying a post dated cheque will be paid. We will have to wait and see.
The main thing with wfp is it means no ladders but does that mean a better job? It means a safer one. Better? As I posted above, over 2 years I've yet to see it and that is the truth.
This arguement is hotting up.... I hope.
Cheers
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Good to see you defending what didn't need defending Ross ;)
All of the things I listed from that alternate world where the squeegee and ladder haven't long been invented are easy to defend against.
A good window cleaner will counter all of them easily.
But even so, they are all VALID arguments!!
Windows staying cleaner longer not a valid point?
I disagree with you on that one, I do one particular shop in a local village once a week.
When doing it trad (and using one of the specialist window cleaning detergents too) there wasn't a single week when I came back to reclean it where the glass didn't have a visible film of dust and soiling on them.
It's location is a little unique in that the position of the building in relation to others mean that the wind creates a constand, swirling vortex.
With WFP, most weeks I could get away with doing it 2 weekly instead of weekly.
The glass stays cleaner longer. Fact.
As I said, that shop is unique, but it is the same on houses too, on an awful lot I am turning up and cleaning glass that almost looks like it was cleaned yesterday.
Sigh!
I want to say more but I gotta go!!
Ian
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I think live and let live.
I switched to WFP last November but it took a while to start using it on ALL jobs (except bungalows). Now I'm thinking about backtracking a bit as I have had more complaints in the last three months than I have had since I started in 1991. Some (though certainly not all) of the complaints have been valid.
A few of the moans have been about spots. A couple have been about "streaking". This means runs. Annoyingly, most of these issues I could resolve if they would just be a bit more patient. I had already given warning that it might take as many as three cleans before the job quality was good so I feel that complaining so loudly about the first clean is a bit off. At a few of the places, water gets through the frames. They don't seem to understand that the water flow can be turned down after the first clean or two (this would resolve most of it but not all).
I have to be honest here and say that the only reasons I haven't ditched all the moaners are:-
1) I need to build my work load up again as I allowed things to lapse a bit.
2) I have concerns about how long Southern Water may allow me to use WFP.
When I get to a position of more work and the threat of a ban has eased (hopefully sometime), then I will have no problems with ditching the moaners - even though the moaning is sometimes justified.
Most of the issues I could resolve. Even some of the leaky frames I could manage as I would avoid repeatedly doing the top frame.
I'm even considering asking Paul Bass to canvass a grand or so's worth of high end domestic/below 35 feet commercial work for me - though I imagine he's pretty busy right now. I am needing to get better organised before I start making such decisions though.
Three or four decent sized jobs and I would happily throw in 15% of my work and take the risk because, although some jobs can only be done well by ladder and squeegee, I dislike my customers trying to dictate how I work. It's my business. I decide how I want to do a job. The main reason I like being self-employed is so that I don't have people dictating to me. So I need to get a load of WFP friendly work in order to work more freely. If Southern Water stop me eventually, I will have to go back on the ladder but not because a customer decides that my life and my health have no value to them.
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Interesting last few posts....
It seems a bit more balanced now.
Not The World Vs Me !
One thing though Ian, if the windows are so clean when you turn up, then they won't want them done. :-\
You need them to get dirty!
Car manufactures would be knackered if they never went wrong.
Definately disagree with the better finish though, you listed some of my examples already.
You're always going to defend wfp, as it's cost you daft money. :-\
Anyway, work time.... :(
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Interesting last few posts....
It seems a bit more balanced now.
Not The World Vs Me !
One thing though Ian, if the windows are so clean when you turn up, then they won't want them done. :-\
You need them to get dirty!
Car manufactures would be knackered if they never went wrong.
Definately disagree with the better finish though, you listed some of my examples already.
You're always going to defend wfp, as it's cost you daft money. :-\
Anyway, work time.... :(
Rog.
I will say that on most of my jobs, WFP is the best option. On about 10 - 15% of them - it isn't. It's still the safest option, but not necessarily the best one regarding work quality. Sometimes this is due to the customer not maintaining their frames - sometimes not.
This may also be due to my shortage of experience with it but I don't feel that this applies to all such jobs. I would still like to get my business to a WFP only situation so this may mean me avoiding particular types of work.
I don't see the point of buying a Ferrari and driving around in a Mini. Although some of the passengers (customers) may dislike the acceleration they get in a Ferrari because it scares them (until they get used to it), this does not mean that I will be driving around in a Mini in case the the passengers dislike the Ferrari.
Actually, I dislike the use of analogies as I would rather a point of view stand on its own merits.
The fact is though that around 85 - 90% of my customers are OK with WFP (or so I assume as they have not complained) and a few actually have said that they prefer it. Also, I work more safely with it. I readily admit that it's not suitable for all eventualities but, rather than backtrack to ladders permanently, I would prefer to only backtrack temporarily while I take on WFP friendly work only.
That way everyone gets what they want. I get a WFP friendly business. The customers get the windows cleaned in their preferred manner. Window cleaners using ladders get a bit more work to go for.
As for other people using WFP, I have seen no other domestic window cleaners around my way using it. Maybe they all got peed off and went for commercial. I have only seen larger companies using it on commercial properties around here. I've even had the p taken out of me by a couple of guys (it doesn't just happen to you Rog) :) . They got a cockeyed view of WFP as I was doing a very dirty first clean with it. I'm happy for them to think it is rubbish as it's not my problem :)
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Thanks for your viewpoints so far on this topic guys.
This was not posted here to be Squeaky against the world, even though that gives him a nice ego boost 8)
The issues won't go away, so I thought, without arguing, and instead of 'sniping' type comments, let's have a thread to see the pros and cons of our preferred method.
Keep 'em coming! I'm learning from all this shared experience.
And I too have views, 18 years trad and now 5 months wfp.
I find the discussion fascinating, but - I'm sure someone outside the trade would be bored witless by now!
Try not to see this as an industrial dispute.
Just rationally weigh things up. No-one needs to defend their corner.
Having said all that, feel free! I don't make the rules, I'm just learning as I said.
And I am very pleased to have found this forum, and great that you share your experience.
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Thanks for your viewpoints so far on this topic guys.
This was not posted here to be Squeaky against the world, even though that gives him a nice ego boost 8)
The issues won't go away, so I thought, without arguing, and instead of 'sniping' type comments, let's have a thread to see the pros and cons of our preferred method.
Keep 'em coming! I'm learning from all this shared experience.
And I too have views, 18 years trad and now 5 months wfp.
With regard the pros and cons.
I cleaned a mansion last month, and every single window was leaded, if you had to use a ladder you would need a triple at least, there was in excess of 40 windows.
I quoted £60.00 and after they had tried and failed to get me to drop the price, I carried on.
Well 42 minutes later I had finshed, and every single pane of glass gleamed like diamonds.
The customer came out and checked the work, which he was over the moon by, I asked if I could check the standard of the clean from the inside, he had no problem with this, and all the glass was gleaming, no spots - runs or smearing.
The customer asked how my system worked and could he clean his windows using his hose pipe and brush.
I then spent another hour showing and explaining how a wfp sytems works and how a hose pipe with tap water would not, because of the imputrites in his water.
Now this customer use to have a trad cleaner who charged them £25.00, which is a crazy price.
I would have charged £200 if I had to do them the trad way, and it would have took me at least 6 hours or more to do.
I now have a new client who pays me £60.00 for 42 minutes of work, and who is recomending to his neighbours, who all have the same type of house.
I also did 2 semis last week.
They already had a trad cleaner, but they wern't happy with him. Anyway the glass in the window were clean in a fashion, but the frames were minging and let the whole job down.
I needed to use over 150 litres of water on these 2 fronts, which was normally more than I need for a first clean, but the windows were running loads of dirt from them.
After I had finshed I had 2 more happy customers, and since then I have picked up 8 more from their recomendation.
Wfp systems do clean windows and they clean them to a very high standard, if yours don't, then there has to be a logical reason why not.
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I started window cleaning last year and went straight into WFP maybe that was a mistake. I only use a squeegee for front doors because of leaky letterboxes and to practise with the squeegee, by the way I am rubbish with a squeegee I just cannot get it right.
The two main reasons I did not use ladders straight away was the fact I am rubbish with a squeegee and there is a viable safe method of cleaning windows without using ladders.
I thought I could do a better job straight away with WFP, in most cases I do.
The second reason is my wife is severely disabled after a silly accident that at the time she walked away from. She fell of a moped travelling at walking speed. No different then falling of a pointer on a ground floor window. She is now virtually bed ridden and in server pain constantly and only able to get about using a wheelchair. When I say pain I mean pain to the point of being unable to touch her because she will scream in agony.
The point I am trying to get over is the human body is very delicate.
How many people have falling of a ladder that as left them disabled and unable to work ever again.
Life is dangerous, driving a car, walking down the road can lead to death or injury but if you can reduce the risk, you do. Cars are a lot safer now for the occupants; Evan with more cars on the road there is less fatal accidents for pedestrians due to the design of cars.
The introduction of WFP is the best thing ever for window cleaners for the simple reason it reduces the risk of loss of life and prevents people suffering long term injuries.
IT PROBERLEY AS SAVED SOMEONES LIFE AND PREVENTED LONG TERM DISABILITY.
To say it will never happen to you is a load of c*** it can and could end up with your death or ruin your life just like my wife’s. I wouldn’t want that to happen to my worse enemy.
As far as cleaning windows with WFP if it is done properly it works. The trouble is people think they can clean windows by scrubbing with pure water for 30 seconds and the jobs done. There is a technique just like using the squeegee it takes time to learn. You have to clean the glass panes in the correct order if you don’t you will get spotting; it just is not as simple as it looks.
I probably take just as long as someone using a ladder actually cleaning the windows, and only save time on moving and climbing the ladder.
I have only lost 2 customers because they were not happy with the results and that was my fault. Some have commented on how good the results are. And yes I use ladders for access on some jobs BUT I HAVE REDUCED THE RISK OF FALLING BY REDUCING MY USE OF LADDERS.
I average £20 per hour when working including travelling and £12 per account still only got half a round, but I have to take care of my wife as well.
THERE IS ONLY ONE PROBLEM WITH WFP AND THAT IS LACK OF TRAINING
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I will say this,the squee gee will never die out,wfp are good but there not gods gift :o :-X try taking one inside then ;D the trad way will stay like or not ;D youv dont have to buy loads a money poles,theres back flips etc,not everyone thinks there good some people do not like water every where,just to clean windows :-\
and then theres the loads of spots storys,I am not saying go up a ladder :-\ but for all those that cant squee gee and just knock trad,think again trad will be around for many years to come yet, ;) ;D
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wfp are good but there not gods gift
That's a quote from a famouse Squeegee Man.
I think that about sums it up.
So why do we think WFP IS Gods gift?
Because we would sell our souls not to climb up and down and carry around those LADDERS!!
THAT'S the real reason!!!
Admit it!!
David
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read what I wrote,I am Not saying go up LADDERS :P
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" AAAAHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
"PLEASE change the record...PLEASE change the record...mummy...mummy...WFP...TRAD...malteser ...robot...tablets...*&^%$...dring...roop...bobbot...HELP ME...dribble...dribble...dribble!!"
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b105/stek67/preston%20trolley/fatman.jpg)
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I've been 2 yrs in this job and the best thing I have ever done is go over to WFP
this year. No longer do I have that feeling when your heart stops as you feel
your ladder move. You turn up at your customers house and they have put in
decking ( very dodgy in the winter ), they have just designed a flower bed
in front of the window. This makes it hard and dangerous when pitching your
ladders.
New build houses are no longer built with the veiw of the window cleaner, I
would say 50% of windows are considered a risk cleaning the windows. You
cannot pitch the ladders above or below the windows but only at the side.
Again a NO , NO, this is dangerous.
This is where my conscience kicks into place, would I allow an employee to clean
windows where there is even the smallest of risks. The answer is NO.
Would I do this with ladders , a year back the answer would be yes. But now
I would answer NO, as I have now realised I have an obligation to feed my
family without taking risks. If anything happened to me who would feed my
family ! Would you let a loved one do this I'm sure the answer would be NO,
so why do we do it to our loved ones.
I'm sure we all have had the sense when we have had used ladders that if it
would slip we would be able to land safely. The real answer to that is NO,
having fallen off a ladder from a low height it was over in a matter of seconds.
If the ladder slips you have no time to react, the end result could effect
your life permanently.
With regards WFP not doing a good job as trad, my feeling on 90% of windows
it does a better job than trad. Over the past couple of months I seemed to
have bad batches of rubbers and I think the standard of rubbers have dropped.
This is many of one things that made my mind up to switch to WFP.
If you do a good job then there is no problems with WFP, if you rush then
yes there will be problems. So the comments of WFP causes spots etc.., no
it does not if used correctly. How many times I have heard my old window
cleaner left streaks using trad, the reason he was charging £2.50 so he aint
going to spend the time detailing after blading the window. You get what you
pay for.
As the old saying goes, 'a bad workman always blames his tools'. WFP works
and trad works, but one is safer than the other. I'm now glad I've gone down
this route and wish other people who have not tried it out just try it for one day.
My objective now is to do things safely for my own protection and people
around me. What if there was a small child when it happened , my conscience
has got the better of me and wish others would do the same. Your life is worth
all the money in the world so use some to save your life.
Sorry just my deap meaningful words.
Doug
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" AAAAHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
"PLEASE change the record...PLEASE change the record...mummy...mummy...WFP...TRAD...malteser ...robot...tablets...*&^%$...dring...roop...bobbot...HELP ME...dribble...dribble...dribble!!"
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b105/stek67/preston%20trolley/fatman.jpg)
Well said Steve! (I think ;D)
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i have been cleaning windows for over 15 years and have used all methods to clean them.
i have over 300 costomers domestically and growing daily, only squeegee insides and have often thought when i turn up after 4 weeks that they still look clean. the idea that wfp doesnt clean as good as trad is absolute testicular nonsense and i defy anyone to find any runs or smears on any windows that i have used the pole on.
granted, some types of windows dont come up well with the system, just like you cant reach some windows traditionally but to say that you cant get as good a result as with trad?-boll~ks.
its obviously not being done properly.
trad is here to stay, likewise wfp. but they both, when done correctly by an acomplished w/c get results
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With regards WFP not doing a good job as trad, my feeling on 90% of windows
it does a better job than trad.
I have difficulty understanding how WFP gives a better finish than trad. Or vice versa.
WFP might give a better result in the time taken, but that doesn't mean it does a better job than trad if you put the time and effort in.
I think although WC is very hard work and can be dangerous if we let it, it is not or should not be skilful to clean a window.
The window is either clean or it isn't. What can be simpler than that!!!
The true skill is in being able to continually clean quicker and safer.
I am soon to be getting WFP but only because it will widen my market and i think i can 'get away' with doing 80% of my round in a third of the time from the beginning.
As long as i can get as good a finish as i can trad i will go for the most profitable tool for the job.
Other peoples health and safety has always been important but until i came on the forums, i never questioned my own. I just looked at the window and if i thought i could do it, i just got on and struggled with it. But after reading similar situations on here and the responses to them, has made me lose my bottle a bit.
The worst i've done is jarred my knee. And that was going up a ladder too quick. That was a day a home. Now i think of personal injury in financial terms. That day would be worth over £100 to me now.
But i'm glad i've started WC trad and if i ever employ i would train them up trad (on bottom windows only).
I would even suggest that WFP will end up being the best thing that could happen to a trad WC. I noted Ross posted somewhere that his gang picked up an ex WFP job for double the price by doing it trad.
Trad is a personal hands on touch compared to WFP which is done from a distance.
I suspect there will come a time when it will be something of a status symbol for certain properties to be cleaned "the old-fashiioned way," and will pay an increasing premium to have it done that way.
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yep I agree with genesis ;Dits all here to stay
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I would even suggest that WFP will end up being the best thing that could happen to a trad WC. I noted Ross posted somewhere that his gang picked up an ex WFP job for double the price by doing it trad.
Trad is a personal hands on touch compared to WFP which is done from a distance.
I suspect there will come a time when it will be something of a status symbol for certain properties to be cleaned "the old-fashiioned way," and will pay an increasing premium to have it done that way.
I've told those on here the very same thing, and they just ignore it.
They shout me down for everything else I say, but never comment on that.
It's because it's true.
Nice one Mark, a balanced opinion. ;)
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yaaaaawwwwwwnnnnnnnnnnn
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I would even suggest that WFP will end up being the best thing that could happen to a trad WC. I noted Ross posted somewhere that his gang picked up an ex WFP job for double the price by doing it trad.
Trad is a personal hands on touch compared to WFP which is done from a distance.
I suspect there will come a time when it will be something of a status symbol for certain properties to be cleaned "the old-fashiioned way," and will pay an increasing premium to have it done that way.
I've told those on here the very same thing, and they just ignore it.
They shout me down for everything else I say, but never comment on that.
It's because it's true.
Nice one Mark, a balanced opinion. ;)
Rog
Yes you will pick up customers who don't want their windows done with wfp, and these customers will pay more for your services.
The same as the 200 plus customers, that I clean for now.
They want me to clean their windows with a wfp system and I know that I charge more than they use to pay with a ladder man.
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I think every window cleaner should be able to squeegy 8)
Those who have gone into wfp without learning to squeegy leave themselves at a disadvantage :-[
We can all go on about wfp till the cows come home but the squeegy will always play a big part in window cleaning
Thinking ahead, when we are all wfp but all of a sudden something goes wrong with it and its banned and weve all forgotten how to squeegy, but theres 1 man left doing training courses on how to mop and squeegy :D
Rog- squeeky clean school of traditional window cleaning ;D
1st lesson free ;D ;D
Rog will say " i hate to say i told you so ... but i told you so "
time for bed i think
Brett
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When a ladder man falls and his insurance co. says "he should've been using a safer method" (as per Health and Safety guidelines) and refuses to pay out - and his widow sues the insurer and fails, then sues the householder - this will get into the papers - then customers will be fearful of nothaving their windows done by wfp.
Especially as wfp'ers go around canvassing and ensuring that customers are aware of these prospective pitfalls.
This time last year I was just beginning to change to wfp and a customer came out and said "are you using that new waterpole thing?" I said I was and before I could explain the chap says "Good - I had someone around canvassing who said that it was illegal for you to use ladders any more."
This experience has been repeated several times especially when "Newsnight" and the Daily Mail were running stuff about this very subject. (Yes - I know claims of illegality are spurious - but it's perception that counts!)
WFP can be got into relatively cheaply now - less than a grand will homebuild you an R/O based system and a few hundred will get you started. Honestly guys - I was really hesitant and doubtful - look at my early posts - but I have not lost a single customer and even while learning during the first three months I earned a bit more than trad. (Now its about 50% more with a trolley system from my car which I am outgrowing.)
Now I feel so much safer, but feel constrained due to running out of water and hitting three figure earnings by lunch time and having to go home for a re-fill of barrels and doing another three figures on top by tea time. On domestic.
Now I will go for a van and carry 400/500 litres instead of 200 and I am confident that I will be doing the same work and save another 90 minutes a day.
Go on squeeks! You know it makes sense!
(You can still keep those few houses that cannot be done by pole - old leaky windows - rough anodised aluminium ones - to keep your hand in and charge extra for! - I've got three left myself! ;D)
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Well, I started this topic. I was just interested to see what the reaction would be.
In hindsight I should have given it the title, "Why do you do what you do?" Or something like that.
I'm sorry. I think, as usual, I put too controversial an edge on it.
I don't wish to set one against another, or let apathy set in.
I'll make my point on a new topic.
ps. very good MalcG
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I would even suggest that WFP will end up being the best thing that could happen to a trad WC. I noted Ross posted somewhere that his gang picked up an ex WFP job for double the price by doing it trad.
Trad is a personal hands on touch compared to WFP which is done from a distance.
I suspect there will come a time when it will be something of a status symbol for certain properties to be cleaned "the old-fashiioned way," and will pay an increasing premium to have it done that way.
I've told those on here the very same thing, and they just ignore it.
They shout me down for everything else I say, but never comment on that.
It's because it's true.
Nice one Mark, a balanced opinion. ;)
Well done Ross again. Not afraid to be honest after spending a lot of money.
Most around here are too proud to admit it's faults.
Wfp is the best thing that's ever happened to me.
squeaky, you are a funny chap. You remind me of that saying, "any (trad) port in a storm." :D
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When a ladder man falls and his insurance co. says "he should've been using a safer method" (as per Health and Safety guidelines) and refuses to pay out - and his widow sues the insurer and fails, then sues the householder - this will get into the papers - then customers will be fearful of [/i]nothaving their windows done by wfp.
One small point but very vital - if a risk assessment had been done then it is perfectly ok and legal to use ladders within reason.
I take the point about customers perception according to tv and newspaper hype. I've also milked that one for all it's worth to justify not doing a good job, but to do the job quicker.
What does worry me and has not been mentioned in this topic, for wfp users, is those vehicles going around with large tanks of water that are not properly fitted.
It's fine that the cost of setting up an RO sytem is getting cheaper but what about the 500ltr or whatever tank in the back of the van in a pile up or even a low speed shunt?
Hi Dave
yaaaaawwwwwwnnnnnnnnnnn
Sorry if this subject is tedious for you but a lot of w/c's whether trad or wfp will be reading this topic. I actually think it's one of the better wfp's/trad topics that I've read so far. What point are you actually making?
Cheers
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I think the point is...how many times is this debate aired??? it`s absolutely and diabolically BORING!!
If you want to use WFP...use it!
If you want to use TRAD...use it!
If your happy with how you work...carry on!
If you are not happy...change how you work or get another job!
NO-ONE on here has to explain to anyone why and how they decide to carry out their business...just get up and go to work...simple.
It`s the same old stuff over and over again :( :( :(
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Go to sleep you!
Oh, sorry I forgot, you can't :(
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The one thing I have started to notice is,that certain people and in the trade,are trying to push the squeegee under the mat, :-\ and as soon as I or some one dare mention a slight disadvantage to a wfp,they all go up in arms,like I stoll there sweets, any one else noticed this ??? I could name them but I wont ;D
or is it there so scared to get the wfp a reputation of the not so nice kind :-\
just having a look on whats going on :-\
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PJ,
funny enough...had a great sleep after reading through yet another WFP-TRAD debate...better than any sleeping pills ;D ;D ;D
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Steve, re the WFP v trad debate, of course it keeps getting repeated, and it always will.
Don't forget, there are always fresh faces appearing on the forum and having the pro's and cons aired are important.
Just as just about every question about window cleaning you can think of also gets repeated, and you don't haveto take part in the debate or even read the thread at al if you are not interested.
Ross for instance takes a somewhat different view of health & safety issues regards ladders when compared to Philip Hanson, both are very well read on the subject, but both come out with a different take on the issue.
I for instance believe that Ross's is the viewpoint that is currently the most relevant, but Philip's will be the line that will increasingly be the more accurate one.
Within 5 years ladders will be access only (just my opinion).
It's all about reducing risk and the way to really reduce that risk is stop working off ladders.
There are times when ladders HAVE to be used, but they really are not very often so far as window cleaning is concerned.
In 2 years of WFP I have used a ladder to clean windows (no, not actually CLEAN the windows ;D) on only a couple of occasions, more often for access to a flat roof.
On one of the occasions it was to do an initial clean, which is quite impossible to do with WFP.
But even that is something that they could insist is done off a platform.
As WFP becomes yet more popular it will become increasingly obvious to those that set the regs that ladders CAN be eliminated where window cleaning is concerned.
The alternative is not expensive.
Hell, in the construction industry you are not allowed to work off a step ladder, even those are access only.
When the insurance industry become fully aware of WFP, how long do you think it will be before they really rack up the cost of public liability for those who wish to work off ladders?
At the moment (at least for the most part I believe) whether you are WFP or ladders your insurance is no different in cost.
But you can bet your life that is going to change. It may take a couple of years, insurance companies will want to see the difference in claims between the two before they start reducing the the cost for WFP and racheting it up for the ladder user.
The writing is on the wall for using ladders for anything other than access only. Even now, were I an employer there is no way I would want anyone working off a ladder while working for me.
Terry,
The squeegee will always be there, the only thing that will go will be the ladder.
Trad methods will ALWAYS be needed, I may be WFP, but I use my trad gear daily and always will ;)
I gotta get to work, big day ahead ;)
Ian
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When a ladder man falls and his insurance co. says "he should've been using a safer method" (as per Health and Safety guidelines) and refuses to pay out - and his widow sues the insurer and fails, then sues the householder - this will get into the papers - then customers will be fearful of [/i]nothaving their windows done by wfp.
One small point but very vital - if a risk assessment had been done then it is perfectly ok and legal to use ladders within reason.
I take the point about customers perception according to tv and newspaper hype. I've also milked that one for all it's worth to justify not doing a good job, but to do the job quicker.
What does worry me and has not been mentioned in this topic, for wfp users, is those vehicles going around with large tanks of water that are not properly fitted.
It's fine that the cost of setting up an RO sytem is getting cheaper but what about the 500ltr or whatever tank in the back of the van in a pile up or even a low speed shunt?
Hi Dave
yaaaaawwwwwwnnnnnnnnnnn
Sorry if this subject is tedious for you but a lot of w/c's whether trad or wfp will be reading this topic. I actually think it's one of the better wfp's/trad topics that I've read so far. What point are you actually making?
Cheers
Ross
I was just showing my boredom on one point and one point only.
#
And that was a certain person on every single wfp debate jumping in with both feet saying wfp is rubbish.
Thats all.
And when someone asks the question shall i change to wfp and someone instantly says no ,because they are rubbish without finding out why the person wants to change.
Well i got annoyed
Sorry to everyone
Dave
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Ian,
the topic has been thrashed out countless times over and over again without anyone actually getting anywhere.
If a newcomer wants to know the differences, they could do a search or a locked, read only post could be put on the site with links to all the various debates.
here are just a few I found in a minute or so:
http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=14495.0
http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=13462.0
http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=13957.0
http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=10337.0
http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=12403.0
http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=12947.0
and there are so many more.
on the whole...seems to be the same old people going over the same old ground. Just my thoughts. :)
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I disagree with you Steve.
The examples you have cited are not great long debates and they all have different people with viewpoints. True, most have regular commentators adding their strong opinions repeatedly, but often a topic is begun by someone who considers themself a novice, maybe read past posts, but hopes for some current reaction. that's a plus about this forum. If it bores you because you don't need any of this kind of info, then don't read, or don't post.
I have noticed that on most issues there are only about 50 regular posters, maybe a few more than that, yet thousands read only and never post.
It often depends on your interpretation/take on the way a topic is going.
For example, I for one really appreciated the work you put in to posting your calander pics on here a while back. It was educational, encouraging and entertaining.
But some could have interpreted it as smug and gloating in front of al the new ones who are frantically swatting up thinking they are getting on the pure water gold rush, as if you were showing them what they've missed out on.
I am certain you didn't mean it that way, but you see my point?
So... you are bored, either don't comment, or add something helpful to the undecided.
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Pj,
don`t know how that could have been seen as gloating...looks like and felt like hard work... ;D
I put that on, by the way, just to inject something a bit different.
I help anyone and my post history reflects that...I don`t usually ask for help...but happily give advice where I can.
Anyway...back to the original point...I can see your point really.
It sometimes feels like there are only about 20 of us who regularly contribute and as such, an argument like this can leave 1 or 2 of those pretty frustrated at the lack of ground giving.
BUT...as you say...there are many others who log on to just read and to them, it might be helpful...so fair point. I`ll keep off the post.
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The writing is on the wall for using ladders for anything other than access only. Even now, were I an employer there is no way I would want anyone working off a ladder while working for me.
Ian you say some cobblers sometimes! ::)
You made me do work for you with ladders on far more dangerous stuff than I'd do now.
The writings not on the wall, that's just a wfp'ers dig.
Oh, and Dave.....
And when someone asks the question shall i change to wfp and someone instantly says no ,because they are rubbish without finding out why the person wants to change.
Still haven't actually read that post then...? ::)
Or one after, saying that I never said "rubbish" or anything of the sort.
Are my posts invisible to you?
If so, why comment on them? :-\
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Squeeky
I think you know what i was on about.
the same arguement you have every week ,you just keep winding every one up.
There is nothing wrong with wfp it cleans perfectly well for loads of people on here.
I never knock ladders, i only reccomend wfp for safety nothing else.
That is all i am going to say on the subject.
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i only reccomend wfp for safety nothing else.
That is all i am going to say on the subject.
Same here, I just never put it down in that post, just gave him the benefits of trad, that's all. That wouldn't be fair on a "newbie".
That's enough for me now too.
Cheers.(it is boring now). ;)
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Bloody Hell guys. Enough is enough now.
Everyone who uses wfp agrees that initially it CAN have its problems mainly down to technique and the state of the windows. Once mastered this method gives as good a finish and result as traditional. The biggest plus for this method is safety and the faster speed the MAJORITY of users have reported.
This learning curve is not different to that of a traditional learner - meaning that a good, streak and run free clean takes time to master. The results when proficient are great also.
It can be, without doubt a slower, more dangerous method of cleaning but NOT a WRONG way.
Everyone knows the prose and cons of each method but until the HSE are more specific on the use of ladders it is an individuals choice and right as to what method they choose.
I would endorse wfp all the way but dont wish, or want to ram it down anyones throat. If they cannot or dont want to see the REAL benefits of using wfp without trying it for themselves then that is their CHOICE.
Cant we just accept that there are still many w/c who do not want to change and let them be because personally I feel this on-going, repetitive banter is now not condusive to this forum.
Newbies (or converties) should feel able to ask genuine questions about both methods and be given clear advice on personal findings and not let things turn into a 'them and us' situation at every opportunity.
My first and only posting on this thread but I think it should be locked as its getting too personal again.
Sarah
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:o
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;D
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;D
hey, I thought you had said your last word on the subject.
Oh, I said that too didn't I - LOL
Sarah :-*
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Nah, we don't need to lock it yet Sarah, there is no rude stuff being thrown around as yet.
Squeaks,
Years ago I din't give a monkeys about myself or anyone else climbing ladders, but in todays current climate there is not a cat in hells chance that I would employ someone and have them work off a ladder, and that has nothing to do with WFP either.
Also Rog I didn't say that once cleaned with WFP they never get dirty again either, merely that they stay cleaner longer, and that is an undisputable fact.
Of course they can be totally filthy 24 hours later regardless of the method used to clean the windows, but extreme conditions notwithstanding, windows cleaned with WFP do stay clean longer as there is no residue left on the glass for dust to stick to.
I'll agree to differ with you regards the overall finish, if the trad cleaner is prepared to wash all of the frames and doors down then the finish will be no different.
However, if you don't wash the frames when cleaning trad then WFP will give a better overall finish.
And most window cleaners do not clean the frames.
With WFP most window cleaners DO clean the frames.
I will also agree that there are occasions when the windows would be better done with trad, the glass just doesn't come out as good done WFP.
I personally find that to be the case more on comercial stuff rather than domestic.
As I said in a n earlier post on this thread, there are some accounts I turn up to after a month and they really do look as if they were cleaned the day before.
The larger the account, the greater the advantage of WFP, and of course on even a small georgian account the WFP will be way quicker, and on just about any account where you are having to buff the glass dry with your scrim or microfibre, the finish WILL be superior.
WFP is of course more expensive to buy and maintain, you'll have pump problems, flowrate problems, battery problems, you will have to replace R/O membranes, change filters, buy resin, water will leak in your vehicle, joints will leak, you will always be getting wet clothes (well I do anyway :-\) Hoses split, relays burn out, you forget to charge the battery, your water bill (if you are on a meter) will increase.
There is always something to tweak with your system and so on and so on.
But once you have got everything set up just so the work itself is so much easier!!
It may still leave you tired and drained after a long day, but it will be nothing like working off ladders all day long.
It will take a few months to get the hang of things and to relearn the best ways to clean houses that you have cleaned trad for several years, but oh, what a difference when it starts to come together, it really is small wonder that so many who go the WFP route enthuse so.
For those that wish to remain trad (like Squeaks) then more power to your elbows (and knees too :'()
You'll be ok for a couple more years yet, but the time WILL come when you will no longer be allowed to work off ladders.
Ian
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.....
But once you have got everything set up just so the work itself is so much easier!!
It may still leave you tired and drained after a long day, but it will be nothing like working off ladders all day long.
It will take a few months to get the hang of things and to relearn the best ways to clean houses that you have cleaned trad for several years, but oh, what a difference when it starts to come together, it really is small wonder that so many who go the WFP route enthuse so.
Ian
Absolutely correct mate!
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For the last year I have been cleaning a complex of oap's flats (30 in Total) of which I use to clean 10 and charge £5.00 each, It use to take me 1 and 1/2 hours to do.
Anyway last month I went to their committee and said that if every resident had their windows done I would drop my price and charge only £3.00 per flat.
I turned up yesterday and their warden had collected every ones money, (£90.00).
So I set up and cleaned every flat on that complex in a record breaking time of 1 Hour.
So with wfp and planning you can earn even more money than normal.
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I've got a big residential place like that.
You couldn't use wfp on it, as they all leave their windows open.
Also they all pay me at the window, so I'd have to go around knocking all the doors inside after....how much extra work?
Besides, the council do them now and again also.
Guess what? Wfp!
They hate it! Always moaning to me about dirt left behind and spots. ::)
Thought you'd love that story! ;D
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No, no, no!
Don't stop there! We all love stories about council jobs.
You don't mean to say someone has allowed council workers to operate a wfp system????
Well there's a surprise..they leave dirt and spots?
Do they do them with the windows open? Because you did say they all leave them open.
How unusual that people are not happy with their standard of work!!!
You've given me an idea for a new topic Rog.
"Who has picked up shoddy council work?"
;)
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Besides, the council do them now and again also.
Thought you'd love that story! ;D
How come you lost that account and the council are now doing it.
Were you a risk to the OAP, hence the council now using WFP ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Bet the council are doing a great job with tap water ::) ::)
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How come you lost that account and the council are now doing it.
Were you a risk to the OAP, hence the council now using WFP ;D ;D ;D ;D
Sigh....wrong again. ::)
I haven't lost the account.
The council have always done them three times a year.
I do them every month.
The customers would rather pay me £3 than have them wfp'd for free. ;D
Actually it's not council workers, it's window cleaners the council pay to do it.
Do they do them with the windows open? Because you did say they all leave them open.
They can't do the open windows so they just leave them. ;D
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Roger,
That avatar really suits you. Well chosen.
You're making me larf!
The thing is, I know you're an intelligent bloke, so find it difficult to understand why you're so intent on fighting your corner so well.
Is it jealousy? Are you a 'closet WFP user wanabee?'
Do you really want to earn more money and improve your business and be safe? Your young daughter looks extremely sweet. How would she feel if Daddy couldn't carry her on your shoulders anymore, because he's in a wheel-chair?
When 98% of WFP users think WFP is great (anecdotal evidence I know, but it's still valid); there must be something in it. Members here are quick to critisize things they're unhappy with.
Even Simon G has asked if I'm selling my backpack, and he wanted to buy it (he knew I bought Matt's trolley system).
My last customer (Francis from Hughes Crescent; near where you live; you probably know her; she seems to know everyone) absolutely loves the WFP and she's a proper 'clean-a-holic'. It cleans the window above her conservatory; the one I've hung out of like a monkey to clean (pre-WFP). It cleans her conservatory roof to perfection. Her PVC frames look great. She loves it.
She thinks I'm great too. I feel safer when Wor Lass is with me.
Roger, my advice is to stop knocking the WFP. Member's here will 'bite' because they know what a blinding job it can do, and they know it's safe, and it's irritating when dumb posts may put potential WFP users from using it.
Remember, a window cleaner recently died falling from a ladder, and he was only a few years older than you; with a family too.
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I haven't lost the account.
The council have always done them three times a year.
I do them every month.
The customers would rather pay me £3 than have them wfp'd for free. ;D
Actually it's not council workers, it's window cleaners the council pay to do it.
??? ??? ??? No wonder there are always spots, you are contaminating the windows
with your cheep soapy liquid ;D ;D ;D
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poor old Squeaky
he's just attention seeking really, he loves it here, cos we all love him.
He's just hen pecked so he takes it out on us ;D ;D ;D
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??? ??? ??? No wonder there are always spots, you are contaminating the windows
with your cheep soapy liquid ;D ;D ;D
Too right, I love it!
Sometimes on a few windows I'll really scrub the liquid into the rubbers.
Or even put a few blobs around the tops of the frames to really cause problems. ;D
They'll give up in the end.... ;D
I'm not even going to reply to Tosh's tosh.
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I think if anybody wants a true and unbiased opinion they should read ROSSEKESVA POSTS on all the subjects he posts on.
Ross uses both methods and tells how he sees it.
Just my opinion
cHEERS jeff.
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Absolutely.
Well said Jeff. (they'll still ignore it though ;D)
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Absolutely.
Well said Jeff. (they'll still ignore it though ;D)
You forgot to add...that's just your opinion ;D
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;D I don't know....
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I think we should all remember that Ross lives in an area that seems to be notoriously difficult for WFP, probably because it is costal, prevailing winds etc dragging salt laden air over every surface.
Rodd really has a hard time with WFP, and so it would seem do others in that area, several WFP cleaners had a bash at....was it the hotel that got bombed Ross?...and every one did a poor job.
Ross has also found WFP a continual headache with complaints and problems, this guy isn't stupid and I've no doubt he is trying every which way he can to achieve the desired results.
For those of us that use WFP and achieve top results in almost every circumstance I can only assume that it must be his location that makes life so difficult for him.
I would love to see Ionics do a field visit (or Omnipole for that matter) and for Rossto take them to an account that should be no problem for WFP, but that he has real problems with.
They could then see if they could do it, whether with a hot water system or cold one and get the kind of finish us WFP'ers all keep bleating on about.
Do you think they have the confidence in their systems to take on a one off challenge like that??
ross is a WFP user, and also one that has many misgivings about the system, with him overseeing the work we all know we would have an honest appraisal from him.
I for one would love to see one of the two biggy's put their reputation on the line in such a test.
Squeaks,
As I recall those council paid window cleaners did a prety crap job when they were doing it trad too, don't forget, I had that job for quite a while too ;)
But you are also absolutely right in that it would be a difficult job for WFP, a trolley system would be a pain because of the fences, a backpack because they wouldn't have enough water and a van mount because you would need about 250m of hose, and you'd still have all those fences and corners to negotiate :-\
But of course those obstacles can be overcome, presumably the council paid cleaners manage it.
Ian
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Squeaks,
As I recall those council paid window cleaners did a prety crap job when they were doing it trad too, don't forget, I had that job for quite a while too ;)
But you are also absolutely right in that it would be a difficult job for WFP, a trolley system would be a pain because of the fences, a backpack because they wouldn't have enough water and a van mount because you would need about 250m of hose, and you'd still have all those fences and corners to negotiate :-\
But of course those obstacles can be overcome, presumably the council paid cleaners manage it.
All I can guess Ian is that there's a few of them with big backpacks.
Might be enough to go around then....
But hang on! They do the whole building(48 flats), not just my accounts(about 22). ???
Oh I don't know.
All I know is, if I did it wfp I'd have to knock on every bloomin' door after!
Half of them bugger off out! ;D
Cheers.
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And they keep dying too :-\........doesn't half make it hard to collect ;)
Ian
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The troubles Ross is having is very worrying for me I'm only 8 miles along the coast from him, its going to be interesting as to whether I have the same problems, I do hope I dont but suspect I will :'( its taking me ages to get the gear together but I guess it will be of some use even if I cant use it on every job, cant ever see me going out without the ladders though, like squeeky I have jobs that its just not suitable for and some customers that are such nice people that I'd hate to have to drop them.