Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Karl Wildey on September 09, 2013, 09:04:15 am
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Looking at new contract and thinking of using encap machine as a pain to use my TM.
I see Dynamall do one, not sure of price, but can anyone recommend any others?
Could get a low speed scrubber and a spray bottle, but again no sure whats good. I am a wet clean old skool so need some advice from LM experts
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Whats interesting about this post just like the one on windows 8 we live and work in a world where you can no longer pick one system be it
Windows 8 or ios
LM PORTY OR TM
You have got to have them all because if you dong your excluding yourself from part of the market
With the os you need to see your site on all systems. In this case not having LM now means looking at buying it. Btw if job is right size it fan pay for it. And a porty for those job that you cant get near or flats
Nice chrome add on let lets you see your site as if it was being viewed on these other systems can help but you cant beat seeing it on the right screen size.
So all this one better than that is pointless all have benefits to your business
For me it looks like just being able to offer TM is worth the investment even if i dont use it. Having three systems at three prices levels could mean porty wins
Lets face it what system to use is normally the cleaners choice not the customers. But which would they choose if you offered them all. Not choose me because i use this system or that one. But choose me because i offer all of them and that benefits your customers budget.
I doing this at my end of the market upgrading hire to porty. Nothing to say it cant be done upgrading or downgrading to and from TM to Porty
Why would a customer want to downgrade from TM to porty because they buy outcomes and in both cases its a clean carpet
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HI Karl
Bought a Hos Orbit SprayBorg excellent results and looks the part, pricey but sets you apart from floor polishing machines.
David
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Dave.. But who sees it? ....Most of my bonneting is done when no ones there.
I think there is a big market for a retro fit spray attachment than can b fitted to any rotary, even a non electric drip fed fitting than has 3 or 4 outlets at the front of the rotary so as you move forward it drips Encap onto the carpet.
If your rotary has a tank you could fit a bit of solution line onto the bottom tank outlet, then wrap it around the rubber bumper, drill small holes into it, pull the shampoo release lever and hay-presto a chemical delivery system
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HI Mike
Thats the reply my son got when he did a demo quote recently. Got the job.
David
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Although I do not have an orbot it is something that I would like to invest in at some stage. It is not only the looks of the machine. The fact that it delivers the chems where you want them and at the rate that you want them, as well as the fact that it has an orbital motion. Makes it a far better machine that a normal rotary. The time saving factor of cutting out the time of prespraying makes it a sound investment for anybody who is going to be any volume work.
I would like to hear Jamie's comments on this as he obviously has a lot more experience on this subject than me.
It took me a long time to get results that I was anywhere near pleased with using lm systems.
Other observations made is that the results achieved with releasit hydrox have been far superior to surround or dynamall. Was I doing something wrong?
Peter
www.carpetcleanercardiff.comhttp://
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I think there is a big market for a retro fit spray attachment than can b fitted to any rotary,
;)
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I would like to hear Jamie's comments on this as he obviously has a lot more experience on this subject than me.
Firstly look at the work you will have to do. Is it one offs, restoratives, maintenance.
Rotary Floor Machine
Every one should have one and this may do you just fine depending on the types of work. However the following criteria need to be met. Speed (200rpm max), Weight ideally 40kg +, Size - 17" which gives the largest choice of bonnets/pads and also a good balance of size vs manoeuvrability.
In addition to the above there are systems that offer heat such as texatherm, dry fusion and thermadry. All good systems but chemistry has moved on sufficiently that heat isnt as major a factor as it once was. Agitation is the key.
We still to this day use the old Chemspec Rotobrite machines. A 20" 50kg rotary with built in spray system. On our maintenance contracts where there is a lot of furniture and soil levels are low these are still our weapon of choice. We can easily achieve 1,000m2 an hour with them using minimum chemicals.
(http://www.kleenkuip.com/images/chemspec_girl.jpg)
Cimex
Now 80 years old this machine throws planetary action into the mix. Used more like a lawn mower than a rotary the triple head design offers 5 times the passes of a normal rotary in the same time. Big 25 litre tank and the ability to dispense a good amount of product for heavier soil and renovation cleans. These machines can handle anything from a rug through to a conference room. Renovation to maintenance. They look the part for anyone watching.
Here is a pic of me testing some modifications to ours last week
(https://sphotos-a-cdg.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/581573_564856963578949_348048704_n.jpg)
Here is forum user Robert Watson using his to good effect http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UD_c2ocCP8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UD_c2ocCP8)
HOS Orbot
This machine gives all the benefits of an on-board spray system for easy chemical control and delivery along with its Orbital action giving great agitation and speed cleaning up to 1,000m2/hr depending on soil conditions.
Its 17" size lets you run agitation pads or bonnets. I also have the larger 19" heads and pads for big open area commercial maintenance. Its absorbent cotton pads are particularly useful on wool for padcapping. The Orbot probably has the steepest learning curve of all the machines. The only down side to the Orbot is also its biggest advantage. It manages chemical delivery very well but can struggle to put a lot down for heavier jobs. Easily solved with a pre-spray (or a Cimex if you have one ;D)
Like the Cimex it is a machine built for the task in hand so looks the part.
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I have both hbot and cimex r48, both have made me a lot of money. For the different types of commercial work we do, i find you need both machines to get the best results fast.
Its not just results but also the theatre whilst the job is being carried out ;)
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To Paul and Jamie .. if you could only have one or the other.. Which would it be ?
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Tough call as i really need both.
If i was pushed i would keep hbot.
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Cheers Paul... and u Jamie???
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Thanks Jamie
and the question on chems?
Regards
Peter
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I have a porty and TM, and use an old victor with pads for LM, but I need to look the part for this job. I agree with Ian, you need all 3 processes and I have all 3, but I need a professional LM system.
Some nice machines mention will start hurting for a 2nd one for starter, just in case its a one off clean and not turned into a maintain contact
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Cheers Paul... and u Jamie???
Based on the work I have at the moment I would say Orbot as it is 95% maintenance work that we do.
If I was starting out and building the portfolio I would go Cimex for the reasons mentioned above.
This is after I got myself a decent looking rotary machine.
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Jamie is spot on. Bonnetting is easy once mastered ;) but the customer cannot see the skill, so you need the theatre, and thats where a good looking all singing and dancing machine comes in.
Not only does the job, but looks the job ;) customers have seen standard rotaries but not Cimex or H Bot.
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Other observations made is that the results achieved with releasit hydrox have been far superior to surround or dynamall. Was I doing something wrong?
All 3 are great products. Did you do anything different when you used the Hydrox?
Were they different installations?
Dynamall and Hydrox will need a longer dwell than Surround as they are on the acid side of the pH scale.
Looking at the main encap products I have used the difference between them is in their make up.
Dynamall contains detergent, deodoriser, copolymer protector, oxi booster (5%) and the encapsulation polymer
Surround contains detergent, encap polymer and perfume depending on version
Prochem Procaps - as Surround, Woolsafe approved.
Chemspec Rotobrite 2 - Detergent, encap polymer, hydrogen peroxide (5-10%)
HOS Environ - High Surfactancy for zero dwell and greasy soil, hydrogen peroxide (?%) encap polymer. CRI approved.
Releasit Hydrox contains Encap polymer, Hydrogen Peroxide (10%) & Detergent. It is also further on the acid side of the pH scale (3.5) making the additional booster more stable in the bottle and effective on problem acid side soils, its Crystalon HP polymer is different from the regular Crystalon 3 in the rest of the range to make it more compatible with the oxidiser for improved cleaning.
If protector is required it can be applied afterwards.
Why one worked better than the other will be down to the above factors/features of the product and obviously the carpet & soil type.
Obviously there is only so much "space" in concentration for each ingredient so choosing what you actually need for the job will determine what to use.
Dynamall gives you a bit of everything thrown into the mix making it a great all rounder.
The Releasit range lets you tailor what you actually require to get the maximum performance.
Basic - Straight cleaning and encapsulation (no perfume or protector) 1:16 or 1:32 dilution
DS1 & 2 - Double Strength with Flurochemical Protector, Tea Tree Extract 1:32 dilution
Bio - As DS1 & 2 but no protectoe and EDFA approved
Punch - Surfactant loaded for greasier areas and zero dwell time, Protector, Tea Tree Extract variable dilutions as a pre-spray (before DS2 or Basic), Extraction Rinse, Spotter, Bonnet Cleaner (doesn't foam like the others so better for spray application), Upholstery Cleaner (synthetics) CRI approved.
HydrOx - Cleaning & Encapsulation (acid side) with peroxide booster. The favourite for wool carpet, organic soils & spills and upholstery cleaning.
Surround, Procaps, Releasit Basic, Punch & DS2 could all be boosted with Sodium Percarbonate (Chemspec Energizer, Prochem Oxibrite, Craftex Energybryte) if desired. Not something I have found the need for with the Releasit range.
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customers have seen standard rotaries but not Cimex or H Bot.
Customer gets a quote for a few hundred £'s and gets this.
(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTAyNFg1ODA=/$T2eC16ZHJF0FFZvw)5I-BSLFjBgTOw~~48_80.JPG)
(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NzY4WDEwMjQ=/$T2eC16Z,!)oFIeo0HSByBSLFjrnMtw~~48_80.JPG)
vs
A quote for a £1k + and gets this (or its big bro)
(http://www.hos-usa.com/images/mini/mini-sprayborg-operator.jpg)
The New Mini HOS - Should be great for domestics, available soon.
Both will do a great job with the right experience, chems and pads. One will do it a lot faster than the other and the initial outlay is obviously miles apart.
I am not a fan of using systems as a USP but as Paul says its about the theatre (an of course getting more toys to play with!)
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Jamie, did you ever get hold of any 6" Fibrelok pads for the Cimex 38?
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Jamie, did you ever get hold of any 6" Fibrelok pads for the Cimex 38?
http://www.cleaningsystems.co.uk/product/726/fiberplus_carpet_cleaning_pads_6_5_inch (http://www.cleaningsystems.co.uk/product/726/fiberplus_carpet_cleaning_pads_6_5_inch)
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Thanks Jamie. I got the name wrong.
The red ones worked quite well but the solution did not froth up as much and I felt it was overwetting. I'll order some of the above for the next job. Thanks.
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Get a set of diffusers for your drive discs while you are at it.
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http://www.cleaningsystems.co.uk/product/711/cimex_shampoo_brush_diffuser (http://www.cleaningsystems.co.uk/product/711/cimex_shampoo_brush_diffuser)
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Which of those chems would you use in nursing home corridors. Synthetic carpets with lots of traffic and wheel chairs.
Did it 3 months ago with cimex and surround. Looked amazing then but client complaining its very dirty looking so soon.
Im not sold on encap tbh. The dirt is still there regardless.
Mark
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vacing and not over wetting makes for a good job.
removing as much of the dry loose dirt then by not over wetting as carpet drys bottom up
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In my opinion when a carpet is overloaded with soil it is preferable to extract it thoroughly. Then low moisture cleaning can take place at regular period afterwards.
All systems have their limitations and "horses for courses" should be the rule.
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Or wet extract once a year and maintain with LM the rest of the year. Maintain being the word.
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Hi Jamie do you know when the orbot mini will be out and have you got any idea what it will be price wise cheers. Del
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Del, Billy small blower has got the first order in as the full size h bot was too big for him to handle ;D
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No surprise there Paul lol
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Hi Jamie do you know when the orbot mini will be out and have you got any idea what it will be price wise cheers. Del
Autumn I was told for the EU variant.
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HOS has entered a deal with Karcher to sell Orbots exclusively through the network of Karcher/Windsor distributors.
Found this on an American site.
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So would the mini be the same as fitting a sprayer to the oreck orbiter or does it have anything els extra ??? I mean I would clean a house with dry fusion but not with oreck and the mini is the same size as the oreck I think . Del
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It stands the same height as the normal orbot with a similar sized motor just smaller head and chassis width.
A lot of the parts are the same on oth machines so it will no ightweight.
We saw a pre-production prototype when they visited the UK a while back and the only difference now is the sprayborg attachment.
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May look pretty good to take in houses any idea what the cost will be
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Not at the moment. I don't think it will be considerably less than the Orbot. It will use pretty much same components and assembly time. Only lower cost would be shipping as more of them can go on a pallet. If will be a bit like the Cimex CR38 & 48 different sizes but same price.
Don't quote me on this though as they haven't issued and EU price yet and I may be wrong.
When I know I will advise. We have an Orbot order with them at the moment and waiting to hear if a mini can be shipped with it.
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Jamie are you considering importing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHhH4qyR36E
Looks the part
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over a year ago I emailed Oreck here in the uk about the lowboy and they said it's only for sale in the usa . I did find a site selling them for $899 but once you added all the other costs involved including getting it to run on our voltage system. tax,import duty,p&p etc etc . it didn't seem worth the hassle.
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I've got one ;D ;D
They are a required taste as they are not as easy to manoeuvre as a Normal rotary
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I managed to get a challenger and have fitted larger wheels so it can be pushed along and love it but before the large wheels were fitted it's as mike described. sometimes awkward to move especially if the floor is not quite level
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I've got one ;D ;D
They are a required taste as they are not as easy to manoeuvre as a Normal rotary
Want to loan me it so I can fit the swing arm kit and see if its worthwhile getting them over?
Would need it for 2 or 3 months for field trials then you could have it back with the swing arm kit FOC?
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Yep you can borrow it, but I need to send you a photo, this is the older version of the low boy with a different wheel fitting, it's not like the new version shown in the YouTube vid listed above
Give me your mobile number and I'll text you a photo, if it can be fitted with the new wheels then I send it up to you to play around with.
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Thanks Mike. Whats your email?
Would rather not post up my mobile number on the board as it isnt a business number.
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customers have seen standard rotaries but not Cimex or H Bot.
Customer gets a quote for a few hundred £'s and gets this.
(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTAyNFg1ODA=/$T2eC16ZHJF0FFZvw)5I-BSLFjBgTOw~~48_80.JPG)
(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NzY4WDEwMjQ=/$T2eC16Z,!)oFIeo0HSByBSLFjrnMtw~~48_80.JPG)
vs
A quote for a £1k + and gets this (or its big bro)
(http://www.hos-usa.com/images/mini/mini-sprayborg-operator.jpg)
The New Mini HOS - Should be great for domestics, available soon.
Both will do a great job with the right experience, chems and pads. One will do it a lot faster than the other and the initial outlay is obviously miles apart.
I am not a fan of using systems as a USP but as Paul says its about the theatre (an of course getting more toys to play with!)
Hey Jamie, this is great info!
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Other observations made is that the results achieved with releasit hydrox have been far superior to surround or dynamall. Was I doing something wrong?
All 3 are great products. Did you do anything different when you used the Hydrox?
Were they different installations?
Dynamall and Hydrox will need a longer dwell than Surround as they are on the acid side of the pH scale.
Looking at the main encap products I have used the difference between them is in their make up.
Dynamall contains detergent, deodoriser, copolymer protector, oxi booster (5%) and the encapsulation polymer
Surround contains detergent, encap polymer and perfume depending on version
Prochem Procaps - as Surround, Woolsafe approved.
Chemspec Rotobrite 2 - Detergent, encap polymer, hydrogen peroxide (5-10%)
HOS Environ - High Surfactancy for zero dwell and greasy soil, hydrogen peroxide (?%) encap polymer. CRI approved.
Releasit Hydrox contains Encap polymer, Hydrogen Peroxide (10%) & Detergent. It is also further on the acid side of the pH scale (3.5) making the additional booster more stable in the bottle and effective on problem acid side soils, its Crystalon HP polymer is different from the regular Crystalon 3 in the rest of the range to make it more compatible with the oxidiser for improved cleaning.
If protector is required it can be applied afterwards.
Why one worked better than the other will be down to the above factors/features of the product and obviously the carpet & soil type.
Obviously there is only so much "space" in concentration for each ingredient so choosing what you actually need for the job will determine what to use.
Dynamall gives you a bit of everything thrown into the mix making it a great all rounder.
The Releasit range lets you tailor what you actually require to get the maximum performance.
Basic - Straight cleaning and encapsulation (no perfume or protector) 1:16 or 1:32 dilution
DS1 & 2 - Double Strength with Flurochemical Protector, Tea Tree Extract 1:32 dilution
Bio - As DS1 & 2 but no protectoe and EDFA approved
Punch - Surfactant loaded for greasier areas and zero dwell time, Protector, Tea Tree Extract variable dilutions as a pre-spray (before DS2 or Basic), Extraction Rinse, Spotter, Bonnet Cleaner (doesn't foam like the others so better for spray application), Upholstery Cleaner (synthetics) CRI approved.
HydrOx - Cleaning & Encapsulation (acid side) with peroxide booster. The favourite for wool carpet, organic soils & spills and upholstery cleaning.
Surround, Procaps, Releasit Basic, Punch & DS2 could all be boosted with Sodium Percarbonate (Chemspec Energizer, Prochem Oxibrite, Craftex Energybryte) if desired. Not something I have found the need for with the Releasit range.
Sorry, I meant this... Great info Jamie.
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Dave.. But who sees it? ....Most of my bonneting is done when no ones there.
I think there is a big market for a retro fit spray attachment than can b fitted to any rotary, even a non electric drip fed fitting than has 3 or 4 outlets at the front of the rotary so as you move forward it drips Encap onto the carpet.
If your rotary has a tank you could fit a bit of solution line onto the bottom tank outlet, then wrap it around the rubber bumper, drill small holes into it, pull the shampoo release lever and hay-presto a chemical delivery system
is there any supplier that sells a spray kit to fit on a rotary?
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I bought a new cimex machine about two weeks ago from John Kelly, its very good in wide open spaces and has easily paid for itself on the first job I did with it, ok I could have used my chemstractor but I couldnt of cleaned in exess of 200 square metres an hour with it, I only complaint with the cimex is it dosent clean right to the edge and I find I have to go over the edges with my chemstractor or risk scraping the wheel on my shiny new Cimex
Stuart
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I know what you mean Stuart.
I have just cut down a zeb pad and put it on the oreck (13") and go down the sides after.
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A microfibre scrub pad on a doodlebug/edging tool will do the bit the cimex doesnt reach.
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Stu , just put an over size on one of the three boards and it will take care of edges ;)
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Now have 13" Zebra Pads in stock.
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Now have 13" Zebra Pads in stock.
I won't be cutting down again :-)
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What price are they John, are they better than the Activa pads.
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Paul
never thought of that , so would a 9inch one do the trick ? Also I am looking to get some brushes for it
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Stu, on certain jobs I will put a brush on one, a over size ( one I cut to shape myself) pad and a zebra pad on the third board. You then get great aggitation and right up to the edge cleaning ;)
Get the zebra pads of J K and the best pads are the buff colour ones Jamie sells.
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Brush / pad combo on Cimex works really well and something we use a lot on hotel carpets.
Just dont let your pads run down to much to reduce head wobble.
Its also worth fitting the shampoo brush diffusers to your pad drives for a more even distribution of soultion.
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I used the cimex tonite on a job with the Zebra pads, I must say I was not I pressed ! Sorry JK I know they were a freeby with the cimex but they hardly agitated the carpet, I thi k its going to be fibre plus in future,
Stuart
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What are the fibre plus like Stuart, ive been thinking about giving them a try.
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The Zebra pads have their place. Mainly on cut pile carpet. For low level loop or short cut pile tiles pads like the Cimex own and Fiberplus can sometimes have the edge.
Its worth having all the options and doing a test patch then go with whats working best/fastest. Same is true for rotary and OP machines. Have a good selection as sometimes the more aggressive options aren't always the best.
Fiberplus (Beige) / Fiberplus MAX (Grey) / Zebra (Micorfibre/Scrub) and Brushes.
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Paul
never thought of that , so would a 9inch one do the trick ? Also I am looking to get some brushes for it
Some of us are great problem solvers 8)