Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Lee Burbidge on September 06, 2013, 02:52:19 pm
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Has anybody bought a PPB system and discovered that they may have wasted their money? Email me lee@windowcleaningmagazine.co.uk
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Has anybody bought a PPB system and discovered that they may have wasted their money? Email me lee@windowcleaningmagazine.co.uk
Don't think you'd get many who would admit it!
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Ask Charlie Price, he's just got one. According to ionics at the cleaning show they said a 12 week wait time if ordered at the show? I don't know anyone on here who has one other than large window cleaning companies. If I get a new system i'll stick to ppm.
worked ok for the last 4 years.
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Been using PPB since 2010. Not noticed ANY difference whatsoever compared to other systems (ppm and ppb)
Luckily we have an arrangement and get resin for free and also the fancy DI's.
The resin we get free as well.
http://www.shop.elgaprocesswater.co.uk/c940-nuclear-grade-cylinder-5068.html
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Ionics didn't have a PPB system in 2010. DIY?
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Been using PPB since 2010. Not noticed ANY difference whatsoever compared to other systems (ppm and ppb)
Luckily we have an arrangement and get resin for free and also the fancy DI's.
The resin we get free as well.
http://www.shop.elgaprocesswater.co.uk/c940-nuclear-grade-cylinder-5068.html
Do you have any contact details?
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Yep DIY system. We use a meter to check the water. (Resistance)
Only link I have is above. That link is relevant to the DI canister we use.
So far we haven't changed the resin since since 2010 :/ the resin is something like £400 a bag or something stupid like that.
If we had to pay for it. Then no chance.
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you can get nuclear grade for £169m+ VAT may give this a try in di vessel
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That's a good price. But I think PPB is more for commercial use.
Some domestic windows I clean look spotless after 6 weeks!
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Been using PPB since 2010. Not noticed ANY difference whatsoever compared to other systems (ppm and ppb)
Luckily we have an arrangement and get resin for free and also the fancy DI's.
The resin we get free as well.
http://www.shop.elgaprocesswater.co.uk/c940-nuclear-grade-cylinder-5068.html
Do you have any contact details?
the contact details are on the link, just click the contact us tab
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I honestly can't see how it would be better - here's why:
My tap water is around 300ppm and my static tank is 1000 litres (1 million millilitres) - so an unfiltered tank must contain 300ml of dissolved solids.
For the sake of math, lets say my system isn't running as it should, and is pumping water out at 1ppm,.. only removing 299ml of dissolved solids,... what would it take to get my water from 1ppm down to 1ppb???
At the very most,.. if the parts per billion system worked perfectly and removed every trace from the water, the best it could do is remove the final 1ml of dissolved solids,.. meaning that its best possible performance produces water only 0.333% purer than a standard system.
PPB is marketing bull - plain & simple. If you think it works better for you, you're simply walking proof of the placebo effect.
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Folks on here regularly report using water with a parts per million reading of more than zero without any ill effect.
Personally I only use 000. It dries clear on glass. What more could you possibly want from water that you are using to clean a window?
I see no benefit in purer water but perhaps a parts per billion system will purify water for longer without having to change filters or resin?
-edit: I see Ionics claim that "Water at this level of purity is far more effective at dissolving dirt, resulting in reduced cleaning time". I know from experience that purified water IS more aggressive than tap water on for example the chassis of a Land Rover. Perhaps there may be some truth in the claim, if so what effect will it have on frames, doors and the like? If I were to hazard a guess I'd say the difference is likely to be negligible.
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Yep DIY system. We use a meter to check the water. (Resistance)
Only link I have is above. That link is relevant to the DI canister we use.
So far we haven't changed the resin since since 2010 :/ the resin is something like £400 a bag or something stupid like that.
If we had to pay for it. Then no chance.
It's your contact details we could do with so that we can have a chat about it.
Stuart
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PPM is one drop of water in 50lt
PPB is one drop of water in 50000lt
Therefore it is 1000 times purer and it must affect its cleaning power.
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So the PPB system will remove that "one drop in 50ltrs" right? Using your reasoning:
Lets say your current badly maintained system removes 15 drops (assuming a tap tds of 300 and rubbish output tds of 020) from your 50 litres,.. the ppb system removes 16 drops (ALL the impurities assuming an input tds of 300) - - how is that 1000% better?
I could put 1 drop of ink/paint/pigment - - the most staining substances on the planet in 50 litres & still be fairly confident that the results would be ok,....
PPM is one drop of water in 50lt
PPB is one drop of water in 50000lt
Therefore it is 1000 times purer and it must affect its cleaning power.
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So techniclaly we are not using pure water as 000ppm may be 001ppb.
Its all a con anyway, i dont change resin until it gets to 30-35 and never have probs or complaints, i could prob get away with water going even higher but havnt risked it yet.
Its just another way to get us window cleaners to spend even more money to keep upto date in the wfp world.
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So the PPB system will remove that "one drop in 50ltrs" right? Using your reasoning:
Lets say your current badly maintained system removes 15 drops (assuming a tap tds of 300 and rubbish output tds of 020) from your 50 litres,.. the ppb system removes 16 drops (ALL the impurities assuming an input tds of 300) - - how is that 1000% better?
I could put 1 drop of ink/paint/pigment - - the most staining substances on the planet in 50 litres & still be fairly confident that the results would be ok,....
PPM is one drop of water in 50lt
PPB is one drop of water in 50000lt
Therefore it is 1000 times purer and it must affect its cleaning power.
The Pubs are open, im off to my local now
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I am not sold on the parts per billion, but hot water on first cleans or less regular cleans would definitely make sense.
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I am not sold on the parts per billion, but hot water on first cleans or less regular cleans would definitely make sense.
what about hot PPB.
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So techniclaly we are not using pure water as 000ppm may be 001ppb.
Its all a con anyway, i dont change resin until it gets to 30-35 and never have probs or complaints, i could prob get away with water going even higher but havnt risked it yet.
Its just another way to get us window cleaners to spend even more money to keep upto date in the wfp world.
lately ive been using water of 58ppm and ive not noticed any diference in
the waters ability to clean compared to 000ppm
the only difference is the potential for water marks which doesn't happen
on 90% of properties I clean
the approx 10% where it does I run a squeegee on a pole across the glass
at the bottom of the frame where the water gathers solves the problem
in seconds
I agree 000ppm is a con and 000ppb is a con with bells bollox and whistles
attached
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I am not sold on the parts per billion, but hot water on first cleans or less regular cleans would definitely make sense.
what about hot PPB.
Just drive past the window and it cowers into a clean state.
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So techniclaly we are not using pure water as 000ppm may be 001ppb.
Its all a con anyway, i dont change resin until it gets to 30-35 and never have probs or complaints, i could prob get away with water going even higher but havnt risked it yet.
Its just another way to get us window cleaners to spend even more money to keep upto date in the wfp world.
lately ive been using water of 58ppm and ive not noticed any diference in
the waters ability to clean compared to 000ppm
the only difference is the potential for water marks which doesn't happen
on 90% of properties I clean
the approx 10% where it does I run a squeegee on a pole across the glass
at the bottom of the frame where the water gathers solves the problem
in seconds
I agree 000ppm is a con and 000ppb is a con with bells bollox and whistles
attached
I don't believe you for one second And if you are you going to be losing customers :o
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So techniclaly we are not using pure water as 000ppm may be 001ppb.
Its all a con anyway, i dont change resin until it gets to 30-35 and never have probs or complaints, i could prob get away with water going even higher but havnt risked it yet.
Its just another way to get us window cleaners to spend even more money to keep upto date in the wfp world.
lately ive been using water of 58ppm and ive not noticed any diference in
the waters ability to clean compared to 000ppm
the only difference is the potential for water marks which doesn't happen
on 90% of properties I clean
the approx 10% where it does I run a squeegee on a pole across the glass
at the bottom of the frame where the water gathers solves the problem
in seconds
I agree 000ppm is a con and 000ppb is a con with bells bollox and whistles
attached
I don't believe you for one second And if you are you going to be losing customers :o
what reason would I have to lie,i rarely lose customers,like I said 90%
of the glass I clean I have no problems with using 58ppm
I went this morning and cleaned a nice 5 bed detached this morn using
58ppm most of the glass dried without a problem he had one set of down
stairs windows with aluminium frames so bladed dry to be sure.
a lot of the glass I clean sheets when cleaning and dries evenly shrinking
inwards happens a lot on the vast majority of older properties I clean
and also at the other end of the scale on new builds aswell.
on glass I clean which is hydrophobic like I said in previous post
there is a potential to spot so I will blade dry,especially at the bottom of the
glass where the water gathers
im hardly making out im performing miracles but far as concerned 000ppm or ppb
isn't necessary
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The other misconception is that pure water cleans better than tap water. Our tap water is approx 80/90ppm & without doubt, there is absolutely no noticeable difference whatsoever between that & 000ppm in it's ability to remove dirt from a hard surface!!
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The other misconception is that pure water cleans better than tap water. Our tap water is approx 80/90ppm & without doubt, there is absolutely no noticeable difference whatsoever between that & 000ppm in it's ability to remove dirt from a hard surface!!
Not sure that's 100% true. From tinternet:
Deionized water, however, is inherently acidic and contaminants (such as copper, dust, stainless and carbon steel, and many other common materials) rapidly supply ions, thus re-ionizing the water.
I know that it can have an adverse effect on steel (land rover chassis) if you don't treat the metal it comes into contact with.
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Soupy - why do you believe 000 water rots land rover chassis more than tap?
>Nathanael
Matt 7 v 6 - or is that a bit harsh? ;D
Homoeopathy = ppb!
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The other misconception is that pure water cleans better than tap water. Our tap water is approx 80/90ppm & without doubt, there is absolutely no noticeable difference whatsoever between that & 000ppm in it's ability to remove dirt from a hard surface!!
Not sure that's 100% true. From tinternet:
Deionized water, however, is inherently acidic and contaminants (such as copper, dust, stainless and carbon steel, and many other common materials) rapidly supply ions, thus re-ionizing the water.
I know that it can have an adverse effect on steel (land rover chassis) if you don't treat the metal it comes into contact with.
One thing to bear in mind regarding your van chassis- rain water, especially where you are is almost pure!
As for the "theory" of pure water cleaning power, yes, I know, I've read it all before but it's at such a minute, scientific level that in "practical" terms there is no "noticeable" difference at human level!! ;)
Try it, clean something with both & apart from pure not leaving dissolved solids behind after evaporation- it will not clean any better than non-pure.
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Soupy - why do you believe 000 water rots land rover chassis more than tap?
>Nathanael
Matt 7 v 6 - or is that a bit harsh? ;D
Homoeopathy = ppb!
Land Rovers are neither pigs nor dogs thank you very much.
When we started out we were di only. Tank of tap water in the back with filters before the reels. We did this for about 18 months, no issue. We then went with a static ro, purified water in the tank. The effect the purified water had was fairly obvious and happened quite quickly (less than a year). There were certain points on the old design of our system that were prone to leaks. You could see where the water had eaten away at the chassis.
We changed the design of the system to reduce the chance of leaks and to channel any water away from the chassis. We also now treat the chassis with underseal which needs to be done on a yearly basis.
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It's a scientific fact RO water is more aggressive , PPB water is used in lots of manufacturing processes .
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I have a IPC eagle twin RO pumped and have contacted gaps water regarding the nuclear grade resin to see if I used it in the final polish it would produce water at PPB
If this will produce PPB I shall purchase the resin and conduct my own experiment.
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The company that supplies the equipment makes UPW http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultrapure_water
We use most of the equipment to make the water. I would say making PPB is mostly down to the resin really.
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There is a difference between water with a TdS 100 which been contaminated with dissolved chlorine and another water a TDS of 100 with dissolved iron or lead oxide which would present totally different results on glass. A lot of your problems with so called lime scale on the glass is in fact calcium oxide which does not readily rinse of glass and needs to be polished out. You read so often on here of chaps having this problem with white spots that will not wash off with pure.
Were we will see more spotting with a tds not at 000 is with the event of using hot water.As these harder oxides adhere/bonds better with hot water. This we see often with dishwashers machine . Which has a softener build in.
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There is a difference between water with a TdS 100 which been contaminated with dissolved chlorine and another water a TDS of 100 with dissolved iron or lead oxide which would present totally different results on glass. A lot of your problems with so called lime scale on the glass is in fact calcium oxide which does not readily rinse of glass and needs to be polished out. You read so often on here of chaps having this problem with white spots that will not wash off with pure.
Were we will see more spotting with a tds not at 000 is with the event of using hot water.As these harder oxides adhere/bonds better with hot water. This we see often with dishwashers machine . Which has a softener build in.
Nobody's using TDS 100 Smithy, get with the times!! ;D
Oh, & you've been reading too much! ;)