Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: concept on August 12, 2013, 11:37:03 am
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Thought I would share my review of our GrippaMax Hot System with you all.
Last year when sourcing a new van, I looked at many systems, on price and safety, and of course ease of use. We needed a delivery only system, crash tested. This ruled out most suppliers instantly.
Having looked at the usual suspects, and had lengthy discussions, I couldn't find anyone who would build the system to my specification, it was off the shelf (more or less), or nothing.
That was until I discussed things with Oliver at Grippa.
I run my business in a particular way, as I am sure a lot of you do, and I like things done the way I like things done, including the van set ups, as I believe the way we have them set up works well for us.
So, discussing things with Oliver, I immediately found him to be extremely knowledgeable about the products we discussed, and the industry and what the system would be doing. Great start.
For this new van, I wanted a hot system, as having had one previously, an L5 gas system, I could see the benefits, but this time I wanted something more reliable and without worrying about a gas bottle rattling about. The system also needed to be able to be left overnight in freezing conditions without the need of mains powered heating to stop freezing. Whats the point in a hot system if your connecting pipes and reels freeze up over night?!
So...Grippa didn't offer a hot system at this point, but were contemplating it, and between myself and Ollie, we bashed heads and ideas for quite some time to develop a system that would be up to the job. Essentially a hot system that required little or no maintenance in terms of winterising or changing gas bottles etc.
Having had the vehicle floor treated with Line-X, at their dealership in Slough (superb flooring by the way, HIGHLY recommended!), the van was ready to go to Grippa.
Backwards and forwards we went, tweaking various design elements and plumbing, controllers and so on, until we got what I see as a fantastic system that does everything I want it to do.
So what do we have?
- 650l crash tested tank system - superb, cant feel any sloshing/momentum from water, this saves brakes and suspension, van is a dream to drive!
- Webasto based water heater
- Liquid Logic controllers with variable thermostat and recyling set up for freezing nights, simply plug reel into a return feed pipe, and it heats the water for a set period of time to stop freezing. Doesn't fire it up for hours at a time, leaving you with no fuel in the morning, just enough to ensure system doesnt freeze. Also control the temperature through these!
- Floor mounted Redashe reels, on a crash tested frame, often an element forgotten about, wouldn't fancy a reel to the head in an accident!
- 2 x 110a Batteries with intellegent split charge system, been in 6 months and never needed charging yet!!
Many other neat little touches we developed along the way, but it's a long enough review as it is!!
Remember this is a development system, so might not look as "polished" as production models!
A few pics for you:
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b383/h20ruf/DSC_1806.jpg) (http://s23.photobucket.com/user/h20ruf/media/DSC_1806.jpg.html)
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b383/h20ruf/DSC_1805.jpg) (http://s23.photobucket.com/user/h20ruf/media/DSC_1805.jpg.html)
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b383/h20ruf/DSC_1808.jpg) (http://s23.photobucket.com/user/h20ruf/media/DSC_1808.jpg.html)
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b383/h20ruf/DSC_1810.jpg) (http://s23.photobucket.com/user/h20ruf/media/DSC_1810.jpg.html)
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So where is the gas bottle?
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So where is the gas bottle?
Diesel powered, draws from fuel tank.
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That's all the ionics and pure freedom hot box are sent they? A warbasto heater.
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When will this particular set up be available?
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When will this particular set up be available?
Available now!
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Look amazing!
How do you purify the water?
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Nice set up. Wheres the webasto/header tank situated and the controls for it?
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Look amazing!
How do you purify the water?
Static system with 2x1000l ibc's, fully automated so I never have to do anything to it,I and the guys fill up from there.
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which van is it?
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Nice set up. Wheres the webasto/header tank situated and the controls for it?
The system is controlled through the Liquid Logic controllers, and the heater set up is in the cabinet to the rear of the tank, nearest reels.
I understand a new controller is being developed with a touch screen to control all the various elements. Can't wait for that!
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Nice :)
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Very nice :)
What's the overall price?
And running costs on diesel hot?
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yeh
what is the cost to buy and have installed?
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which van is it?
our VW Transporter T5:
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b383/h20ruf/DSC_8726.jpg) (http://s23.photobucket.com/user/h20ruf/media/DSC_8726.jpg.html)
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Very nice :)
What's the overall price?
And running costs on diesel hot?
Not noticed much of a change in fuel consumption, so maybe a couple of pounds a day? If it was ridiculous, then I'd worry, but it's not, and it's a useful addition for cladding cleans, fascias, signs, 1st cleans etc, so I'm all for it!
Cost wise, you'd need to speak to Grippa, as mine was a test bed, so was undergoing constant development for months.
Certainly not as expensive as Ionics, and comparative to Purefreedom, but being crash tested.
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is the heater a on demand? or do you have to heat up 650l of water before you get hot coming out of the brush?
3 grand vs 200 hundred quid to not have a gas bottle? makes no sense to me
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is the heater a on demand? or do you have to heat up 650l of water before you get hot coming out of the brush?
3 grand vs 200 hundred quid to not have a gas bottle? makes no sense to me
On demand.
We all have the choice, I've run both and I know which I prefer.
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which van is it?
our VW Transporter T5:
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b383/h20ruf/DSC_8726.jpg) (http://s23.photobucket.com/user/h20ruf/media/DSC_8726.jpg.html)
That looks smart
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beautiful vans there concept mate
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Im getting one love it
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If that van was a supermodel it would be on the front cover of Vogue. ;D
Top class.
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grippamax website still rubbish!!!! >:(
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grippamax website still rubbish!!!! >:(
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Great post and thanks for sharing it with us. You've got a seriously good setup and I'd be proud of it too. Please keep us informed of how it's working, any problems, anything you'd do differently etc. Your vans look great. In the winter you'll find that the wording on the lower sill of the van will get covered in crap and not be as legible as it should be. Top job and loving it.
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Hi Concept,
Great set up!
Is the Webasto temp fully adjustable.
Many thanks
Simon
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Hi Concept,
Great set up!
Is the Webasto temp fully adjustable.
Many thanks
Simon
Yes it is.
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I just don't get grippa great products unusable website gave up on it ages ago, shame.
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I just don't get grippa great products unusable website gave up on it ages ago, shame.
I totally agree!!
It really doesn't do there brand any good at all!
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and if your cleaver you could get a diffent tank fitted and run it on red diesel ;D
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Thought I would share my review of our GrippaMax Hot System with you all.
Last year when sourcing a new van, I looked at many systems, on price and safety, and of course ease of use. We needed a delivery only system, crash tested. This ruled out most suppliers instantly.
Having looked at the usual suspects, and had lengthy discussions, I couldn't find anyone who would build the system to my specification, it was off the shelf (more or less), or nothing.
That was until I discussed things with Oliver at Grippa.
I run my business in a particular way, as I am sure a lot of you do, and I like things done the way I like things done, including the van set ups, as I believe the way we have them set up works well for us.
So, discussing things with Oliver, I immediately found him to be extremely knowledgeable about the products we discussed, and the industry and what the system would be doing. Great start.
For this new van, I wanted a hot system, as having had one previously, an L5 gas system, I could see the benefits, but this time I wanted something more reliable and without worrying about a gas bottle rattling about. The system also needed to be able to be left overnight in freezing conditions without the need of mains powered heating to stop freezing. Whats the point in a hot system if your connecting pipes and reels freeze up over night?!
So...Grippa didn't offer a hot system at this point, but were contemplating it, and between myself and Ollie, we bashed heads and ideas for quite some time to develop a system that would be up to the job. Essentially a hot system that required little or no maintenance in terms of winterising or changing gas bottles etc.
Having had the vehicle floor treated with Line-X, at their dealership in Slough (superb flooring by the way, HIGHLY recommended!), the van was ready to go to Grippa.
Backwards and forwards we went, tweaking various design elements and plumbing, controllers and so on, until we got what I see as a fantastic system that does everything I want it to do.
So what do we have?
- 650l crash tested tank system - superb, cant feel any sloshing/momentum from water, this saves brakes and suspension, van is a dream to drive!
- Webasto based water heater
- Liquid Logic controllers with variable thermostat and recyling set up for freezing nights, simply plug reel into a return feed pipe, and it heats the water for a set period of time to stop freezing. Doesn't fire it up for hours at a time, leaving you with no fuel in the morning, just enough to ensure system doesnt freeze. Also control the temperature through these!
- Floor mounted Redashe reels, on a crash tested frame, often an element forgotten about, wouldn't fancy a reel to the head in an accident!
- 2 x 110a Batteries with intellegent split charge system, been in 6 months and never needed charging yet!!
Many other neat little touches we developed along the way, but it's a long enough review as it is!!
Remember this is a development system, so might not look as "polished" as production models!
A few pics for you:
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b383/h20ruf/DSC_1806.jpg) (http://s23.photobucket.com/user/h20ruf/media/DSC_1806.jpg.html)
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b383/h20ruf/DSC_1805.jpg) (http://s23.photobucket.com/user/h20ruf/media/DSC_1805.jpg.html)
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b383/h20ruf/DSC_1808.jpg) (http://s23.photobucket.com/user/h20ruf/media/DSC_1808.jpg.html)
(http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b383/h20ruf/DSC_1810.jpg) (http://s23.photobucket.com/user/h20ruf/media/DSC_1810.jpg.html)
looks to nice to work out of... Id be to scared to get it dirty lol ;D
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Am I being stupid, I cant see the heater
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Am I being stupid, I cant see the heater
In the cabinet behind reels.
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In the ply?
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In the ply?
Looks like it's where my front plate is, instead of a plate it's like a cabinet. Fooled me as well.
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Now I see it
Hiding in plane sight
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and if your cleaver you could get a diffent tank fitted and run it on red diesel ;D
I'm afraid that the Webasto heaters don't work well on red diesel. The long boat forums are full of problems with these coking up with carbon very quickly and needing a regular expensive service and decoke every year. Long boats are fueled with red diesel.
Ordinary road diesel is fine, so its either the dye or the poor quality of fuel that is to blame.
From what I've heard, Ionics are the only ones who have truely got to grips with the Webasto Diesel heater for window cleaning, although I believe the lastest Pure Freedom unit is much improved. It would be interesting to see a picture of the inards of this Grippamax unit.
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and if your cleaver you could get a diffent tank fitted and run it on red diesel ;D
I'm afraid that the Webasto heaters don't work well on red diesel. The long boat forums are full of problems with these coking up with carbon very quickly and needing a regular expensive service and decoke every year. Long boats are fueled with red diesel.
Ordinary road diesel is fine, so its either the dye or the poor quality of fuel that is to blame.
From what I've heard, Ionics are the only ones who have truely got to grips with the Webasto Diesel heater for window cleaning, although I believe the lastest Pure Freedom unit is much improved. It would be interesting to see a picture of the inards of this Grippamax unit.
What would you like to know Spruce?
Not that I know 100% of its workings, but I may be able to assist...
Indeed, red diesel causes issues with them, and invalidaties warranties also?
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and if your cleaver you could get a diffent tank fitted and run it on red diesel ;D
I'm afraid that the Webasto heaters don't work well on red diesel. The long boat forums are full of problems with these coking up with carbon very quickly and needing a regular expensive service and decoke every year. Long boats are fueled with red diesel.
Ordinary road diesel is fine, so its either the dye or the poor quality of fuel that is to blame.
From what I've heard, Ionics are the only ones who have truely got to grips with the Webasto Diesel heater for window cleaning, although I believe the lastest Pure Freedom unit is much improved. It would be interesting to see a picture of the inards of this Grippamax unit.
What would you like to know Spruce?
Not that I know 100% of its workings, but I may be able to assist...
Indeed, red diesel causes issues with them, and invalidaties warranties also?
The problem many users complain about is the battery going flat. This is due to the unit switching off when it has reached it's highest temperature. When a Webasto starts up it draws about 14 amps of current for a short period heating up the 'glow plug'. Once is it fired up it draws about 2 amps. Initially, as the unit is heating up, it runs at 'full throttle'. Once the temp of the heated water gets to a preset heat, say around 65 to 70 degrees, it will reduce the heater output and run at 'half throttle' and uses about 1.4 amps of current.
If you are standing talking to your customer, the water temperature will continue to increase until the unit switches itself off at around 90 degrees as you are not 'drawing any heat off.' Once you go back to cleaning, then the heater has got to restart and use that heavy current draw again. It will be in effect, cycling.
Ionic use a pressure relief valve from what I understand. If you, the operator switch your tap off, the pressure will build and the pressure relief valve redirect the hot water meant for your brush back to the main tank. But your pump will be running all the time.
The other issue is that a heater working in the 2nd heat phase (half throttle) will be supplying less heated water to the brush head as the temperature control valves will be adding more cold water to achieve your temperature requirement. So you need to find an ideal way of bleeding that extra heat off to keep the heater tickling over in that second phase with lower fuel costs.
A furnace (boiler) that keeps cycling on and off will coke up quickly, but one that runs efficiently will tend to remain carbon free for much longer. This cycling is another issue the long boat owners find a problem, especially when they are just heating up hot water and aren't using the central heating system. The internal heat exchangers in their calorifiers won't 'zap' the heat produced fast enough.
Added.
The primary use of these heaters are as block heaters; heating up and circulating freezing cold water in freezing engines, warming them up to normal operating temperatures to make starting easiler with less wear and tear. They then added an additional feature that switches on the vehicles internal heater fan to warm up the cabin and defrost the windscreen. In this application, they work very well and reliably. Using it as an on demand water heater in our business isn't what is is designed for.
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Gas boilers are much less complicated
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and if your cleaver you could get a diffent tank fitted and run it on red diesel ;D
I'm afraid that the Webasto heaters don't work well on red diesel. The long boat forums are full of problems with these coking up with carbon very quickly and needing a regular expensive service and decoke every year. Long boats are fueled with red diesel.
Ordinary road diesel is fine, so its either the dye or the poor quality of fuel that is to blame.
From what I've heard, Ionics are the only ones who have truely got to grips with the Webasto Diesel heater for window cleaning, although I believe the lastest Pure Freedom unit is much improved. It would be interesting to see a picture of the inards of this Grippamax unit.
What would you like to know Spruce?
Not that I know 100% of its workings, but I may be able to assist...
Indeed, red diesel causes issues with them, and invalidaties warranties also?
The problem many users complain about is the battery going flat. This is due to the unit switching off when it has reached it's highest temperature. When a Webasto starts up it draws about 14 amps of current for a short period heating up the 'glow plug'. Once is it fired up it draws about 2 amps. Initially, as the unit is heating up, it runs at 'full throttle'. Once the temp of the heated water gets to a preset heat, say around 65 to 70 degrees, it will reduce the heater output and run at 'half throttle' and uses about 1.4 amps of current.
If you are standing talking to your customer, the water temperature will continue to increase until the unit switches itself off at around 90 degrees as you are not 'drawing any heat off.' Once you go back to cleaning, then the heater has got to restart and use that heavy current draw again. It will be in effect, cycling.
Ionic use a pressure relief valve from what I understand. If you, the operator switch your tap off, the pressure will build and the pressure relief valve redirect the hot water meant for your brush back to the main tank. But your pump will be running all the time.
The other issue is that a heater working in the 2nd heat phase (half throttle) will be supplying less heated water to the brush head as the temperature control valves will be adding more cold water to achieve your temperature requirement. So you need to find an ideal way of bleeding that extra heat off to keep the heater tickling over in that second phase with lower fuel costs.
A furnace (boiler) that keeps cycling on and off will coke up quickly, but one that runs efficiently will tend to remain carbon free for much longer. This cycling is another issue the long boat owners find a problem, especially when they are just heating up hot water and aren't using the central heating system. The internal heat exchangers in their calorifiers won't 'zap' the heat produced fast enough.
Added.
The primary use of these heaters are as block heaters; heating up and circulating freezing cold water in freezing engines, warming them up to normal operating temperatures to make starting easiler with less wear and tear. They then added an additional feature that switches on the vehicles internal heater fan to warm up the cabin and defrost the windscreen. In this application, they work very well and reliably. Using it as an on demand water heater in our business isn't what is is designed for.
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lol I am sad as I understand all of this lol , maybe grippa could look into a diverter system like my truck mounted carpet cleaner as , it keeps everything hot , and cool at the same time , buy drawing fresh cold water from the tank and dumping it in the waste tanks keeping the water hot for when you pull the trigger , and keeping the engine cool when your removeing stains ect ect
so for window cleaners this could be dropped back into the water tank ??? this would save grippas unit restarting all the time ?
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and if your cleaver you could get a diffent tank fitted and run it on red diesel ;D
I'm afraid that the Webasto heaters don't work well on red diesel. The long boat forums are full of problems with these coking up with carbon very quickly and needing a regular expensive service and decoke every year. Long boats are fueled with red diesel.
Ordinary road diesel is fine, so its either the dye or the poor quality of fuel that is to blame.
From what I've heard, Ionics are the only ones who have truely got to grips with the Webasto Diesel heater for window cleaning, although I believe the lastest Pure Freedom unit is much improved. It would be interesting to see a picture of the inards of this Grippamax unit.
What would you like to know Spruce?
Not that I know 100% of its workings, but I may be able to assist...
Indeed, red diesel causes issues with them, and invalidaties warranties also?
The problem many users complain about is the battery going flat. This is due to the unit switching off when it has reached it's highest temperature. When a Webasto starts up it draws about 14 amps of current for a short period heating up the 'glow plug'. Once is it fired up it draws about 2 amps. Initially, as the unit is heating up, it runs at 'full throttle'. Once the temp of the heated water gets to a preset heat, say around 65 to 70 degrees, it will reduce the heater output and run at 'half throttle' and uses about 1.4 amps of current.
If you are standing talking to your customer, the water temperature will continue to increase until the unit switches itself off at around 90 degrees as you are not 'drawing any heat off.' Once you go back to cleaning, then the heater has got to restart and use that heavy current draw again. It will be in effect, cycling.
Ionic use a pressure relief valve from what I understand. If you, the operator switch your tap off, the pressure will build and the pressure relief valve redirect the hot water meant for your brush back to the main tank. But your pump will be running all the time.
The other issue is that a heater working in the 2nd heat phase (half throttle) will be supplying less heated water to the brush head as the temperature control valves will be adding more cold water to achieve your temperature requirement. So you need to find an ideal way of bleeding that extra heat off to keep the heater tickling over in that second phase with lower fuel costs.
A furnace (boiler) that keeps cycling on and off will coke up quickly, but one that runs efficiently will tend to remain carbon free for much longer. This cycling is another issue the long boat owners find a problem, especially when they are just heating up hot water and aren't using the central heating system. The internal heat exchangers in their calorifiers won't 'zap' the heat produced fast enough.
Added.
The primary use of these heaters are as block heaters; heating up and circulating freezing cold water in freezing engines, warming them up to normal operating temperatures to make starting easiler with less wear and tear. They then added an additional feature that switches on the vehicles internal heater fan to warm up the cabin and defrost the windscreen. In this application, they work very well and reliably. Using it as an on demand water heater in our business isn't what is is designed for.
You really know your stuff Spruce, well done mate.
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and if your cleaver you could get a diffent tank fitted and run it on red diesel ;D
I'm afraid that the Webasto heaters don't work well on red diesel. The long boat forums are full of problems with these coking up with carbon very quickly and needing a regular expensive service and decoke every year. Long boats are fueled with red diesel.
Ordinary road diesel is fine, so its either the dye or the poor quality of fuel that is to blame.
From what I've heard, Ionics are the only ones who have truely got to grips with the Webasto Diesel heater for window cleaning, although I believe the lastest Pure Freedom unit is much improved. It would be interesting to see a picture of the inards of this Grippamax unit.
What would you like to know Spruce?
Not that I know 100% of its workings, but I may be able to assist...
Indeed, red diesel causes issues with them, and invalidaties warranties also?
The problem many users complain about is the battery going flat. This is due to the unit switching off when it has reached it's highest temperature. When a Webasto starts up it draws about 14 amps of current for a short period heating up the 'glow plug'. Once is it fired up it draws about 2 amps. Initially, as the unit is heating up, it runs at 'full throttle'. Once the temp of the heated water gets to a preset heat, say around 65 to 70 degrees, it will reduce the heater output and run at 'half throttle' and uses about 1.4 amps of current.
If you are standing talking to your customer, the water temperature will continue to increase until the unit switches itself off at around 90 degrees as you are not 'drawing any heat off.' Once you go back to cleaning, then the heater has got to restart and use that heavy current draw again. It will be in effect, cycling.
Ionic use a pressure relief valve from what I understand. If you, the operator switch your tap off, the pressure will build and the pressure relief valve redirect the hot water meant for your brush back to the main tank. But your pump will be running all the time.
The other issue is that a heater working in the 2nd heat phase (half throttle) will be supplying less heated water to the brush head as the temperature control valves will be adding more cold water to achieve your temperature requirement. So you need to find an ideal way of bleeding that extra heat off to keep the heater tickling over in that second phase with lower fuel costs.
A furnace (boiler) that keeps cycling on and off will coke up quickly, but one that runs efficiently will tend to remain carbon free for much longer. This cycling is another issue the long boat owners find a problem, especially when they are just heating up hot water and aren't using the central heating system. The internal heat exchangers in their calorifiers won't 'zap' the heat produced fast enough.
Added.
The primary use of these heaters are as block heaters; heating up and circulating freezing cold water in freezing engines, warming them up to normal operating temperatures to make starting easiler with less wear and tear. They then added an additional feature that switches on the vehicles internal heater fan to warm up the cabin and defrost the windscreen. In this application, they work very well and reliably. Using it as an on demand water heater in our business isn't what is is designed for.
You really know your stuff Spruce, well done mate.
The trouble is that a lot of these units were jumped on by the suppliers and modified to suit our application, unfortunately with mixed results. The Webasto is a very good block heater and does OK as a supplementary cabin heater for vehicles such as the Range Rover Discovery/Disco.
On another current post, Archer has stated that he has had good service from the Hurricane diesel heaters that Brodex and a couple of others supply. These are specifically designed to operate in the marine industry, and their design seems to equate to a reliable performance in that industry. It would appear that they work well in the window cleaning industry as I haven't seen one thread of anyone complain, but is that because there are so few of them in our environment? I don't know. A basic Hurricane unit costs £1000.00 more than a Webasto kit, so one can see why the Webasto is more popular as the furnace source for a diesel water heater. I see Hurricane are now building a specific diesel heater for our industry - I haven't found a price yet though.
Susan is right, when she says that the excess heat could be channelled back into our WFP tank. However, that would be more costly to run the unit as that heat would mainly be wasted as most of us carry extra water incase we need it, and most of our WFP tanks aren't insulated to prevent heat loss. It would also mean another plate heat exchanger, pump and digital temperature controller that would operate the pump once the temperature of the water got too hot. This would all add costs to an already expensive unit.
Pure Freedom tried to solve this cycling of the heater by incorporating an 11 liter header tank that would be used as a heat store, but as they then followed Ionic's example of 'bleeding' excess heat back to the tank, we can only assume that the 11 liter tank wasn't a satisfactory solution.
When I first looked at this my intention was to warm the hoses during winter to keep them supple. However, over the years our minibore hose has better flexibility in the winter than the original lot did, so my interest in a diesel powered heater was given a lower priority.