Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: david@zap-clean on July 15, 2013, 04:28:24 pm
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Just been to a large domestic job and the carpets were literally covered with hundreds of draft marks caused by the carpet kicker (when fitted):
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1373902011_CarpetKickerStains_1024px.jpg)
Is this bad carpet fitting practice, or acceptable in some homes (i.e. draughty old houses with loose floorboards/cellars etc)?
I couldn't shift them either...
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This is kicker marks.
How was the fitter supposed to know that this was going to happen?
He could have advised the customer the floor boards needed sealing before fitting, but he probably didn't want to loose a morning's work.
Was he fitting new underlay down? If so, he should have spotted the potential problem. If they weren't too bad he could have taped the gaps and put paper felt down first, that would have helped.
If he was just fitting using the existing underlay, then he wouldn't have seen the potential problem.
Who is at fault?
The customer, the carpet shop, the fitter?????
That's the sort of cleaning job we wouldn't even attempt unless they were willing to pay by our hour rate which is £60.....
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its caused by the teeth of the kicker being lowered too much and piercing the carpet backing
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Its quite a common problem, I see it often in old and new houses alike.
Its basically the spikes of the kicker been pressed down too hard. If the home suffers from draft marks around the edge of the carpet, then it'll also show where the wee holes from the kicker have been created.
Ultrapac or enzall spreayed down hot will deal with this but the marks will come back in a few months time.
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Yep, carpet fitters fault, no doubt about that,....is poor fitting and lazy technique and yes a fitter should be aware this could happen an inspection of the property should give them some clues and any decent fitter would identify these and report it accordingly...
Seen a ton of this over ths years, John Lewis used to uplift and replace every carpet on which this occured after one of their fits...I have seen one off small rooms to complete whole houses have the carpets replaced....
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Yep, carpet fitters fault, no doubt about that,....is poor fitting and lazy technique and yes a fitter should be aware this could happen an inspection of the property should give them some clues and any decent fitter would identify these and report it accordingly...
Seen a ton of this over ths years, John Lewis used to uplift and replace every carpet on which this occured after one of their fits...I have seen one off small rooms to complete whole houses have the carpets replaced....
Is it more than poor adjustment of the knee kicker spikes? Should they have lined the boards or something?
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Not necessarily a carpet fitter fault. Those knee kicker spikes are meant to slightly penetrate the carpet secondary or woven backing. If the backing is not pierced by the spikes, when kicked, the knee kicker will skid across the pile and possibly damage it.
The fault is with the floor/skirting, if they were not faulty, those marks wouldn't occur, no matter how much the spikes went through the carpet backing.
Dave.
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So it's the floors fault, I would like to see that on the claims form ;D
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Agree with Dave ,a carpet stretcher has to penetrate the backing to stretch the carpet as it would pull great tufts of carpet pile out if the spikes were not set high enough .Many times I have forgotten to adjust them and have found myself skidding into the skirting and bruising my knee ,followed by a tirade of expletives
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"......the fault is with the floor..." ??? ???
Sure the fitter has to penetrate the carpet with his kicker - but one assumes he/she is only interested in stretching the carpet and not the underlay as well. Don't penetrate the underlay and you won't have those marks as pictured above
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It is the carpet fitters fault as already mentioned by using poor lazy technique and that was by setting the kicker too deep that's what the depth gauge is for.....to not only stretch the carpet but to prevent causing secondary damage.
I'm not sure what its like now but time was not a factor either, if it took a year or two for the draught marks to appear the fitter was still responsible..
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Hilton what is a depth gauge ?
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Its the twirly dial on top that sets the depth of the pins to the required level.....some people only use
have one setting....deep and that's the problem..
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oh right !! I have been fitting for over 30 years and never heard it called that .
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oh right !! I have been fitting for over 30 years and never heard it called that .
Ah, Tony, you didn't do a fitting job in a big house in Wilmslow about 10 yrs ago did you?
;D
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oh right !! I have been fitting for over 30 years and never heard it called that .
You mean in thirty years no one has explained what that thing is ? no wonder there are so many damaged carpets about. 8)
As a carpet fitter of thirty years would you agree that is a fitting fault, would you take responsibility for it if you had fitted that carpet ?
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Hmm David just split my sides .Most kicker pins even extended would merely grip the backing so as to get some purchase on it to stretch ,otherwise what would be the point in a stretcher ,a stretcher has to puncture the backing to a certain extent and not just the pile as it would cause irreparable damage if it did not .I have uplifted many carpets and of course you will see the indentations on backing where stretcher has been but certainly no holes in the backing .As for a depth gauge ,on most carpets ,(with the exception of a cheap felt back which this might well be as it looks like an old carpet called 4 star which came in hessian and foam back and later felt back with a polypropylene pile content ),with the pins at fully extended on a hessian backing you would find it hard to create gaping holes unless you kept stretching and stretching until you did damage it and if you did you would imo cause damage to the pile which would certainly be visible as soon as you had done job as their would be tufts ripped out .My point is that if you seriously damaged the backing with a stretcher you would almost certainly damage the top of the carpet also .So what is a fitter supposed to do then not stretch it ,from the photo I cannot see any damage to the pile so imo he has not done anything untoward just doing his job and if the house is riddled with gaps and holes which is causing these draught marks then they need to get them sorted ,you wouldnt call a chippie a cowboy if he left a gap from the skirting board to the floor if the floor was faulty and had gaps which caused draught marks . Not saying this is the case here just giving an opinion .Perhaps you should lift a bit of the carpet up David and you would get a better idea !!!
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Well I was obviously not privy to the vast amount of knowledge you seem to have on carpets and fitting Hilton.
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Hmm David just split my sides .Most kicker pins even extended would merely grip the backing so as to get some purchase on it to stretch ,otherwise what would be the point in a stretcher ,a stretcher has to puncture the backing to a certain extent and not just the pile as it would cause irreparable damage if it did not .I have uplifted many carpets and of course you will see the indentations on backing where stretcher has been but certainly no holes in the backing .As for a depth gauge ,on most carpets ,(with the exception of a cheap felt back which this might well be as it looks like an old carpet called 4 star which came in hessian and foam back and later felt back with a polypropylene pile content ),with the pins at fully extended on a hessian backing you would find it hard to create gaping holes unless you kept stretching and stretching until you did damage it and if you did you would imo cause damage to the pile which would certainly be visible as soon as you had done job as their would be tufts ripped out .My point is that if you seriously damaged the backing with a stretcher you would almost certainly damage the top of the carpet also .So what is a fitter supposed to do then not stretch it ,from the photo I cannot see any damage to the pile so imo he has not done anything untoward just doing his job and if the house is riddled with gaps and holes which is causing these draught marks then they need to get them sorted ,you wouldnt call a chippie a cowboy if he left a gap from the skirting board to the floor if the floor was faulty and had gaps which caused draught marks . Not saying this is the case here just giving an opinion .Perhaps you should lift a bit of the carpet up David and you would get a better idea !!!
Great reply Tony.
The root of the problem isn't the kicker - it's the draft/air moving up through the floorboards.
So why, when fitters know the kicker makes holes in the underlay, which causes this problem, don't they fit a draft excluder underneath the underlay - in the old days this was simple: 'put old newspaper down first'... But I guess the modern equivalent, The Kindle', would leave bumps in the carpet.
;D
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There is a simple reply to this David and you are right a hard paper was placed under the underlay especially the old foam backs,but with the onset of better underlays and better flooring and now felt backs instead of foam backs it was just not needed anymore and it was also not beneficial as it made the underlay move more than it should ,and also cost ,most customers dont want to pay for felt or paper on top of dodgy floor boards ,and of course there is not a lot fitters can do about gaps under skirting boards. Re making holes in the underlay ,I think you misunderstood me ,a spike from a stretcher would not imo make a hole in underlay even fully extended I would be very surprised if that was the case as the spike would just penetrate the hessian backing ,unless like I said before it was a very worn carpet or felt back ,foam back .If you got a piece of underlay say tredaire which is rubber backed or even the old type felt ,even cloud nine which is made up of foam and punctured a hole in them ,they would go back to what they were before ie the hole would close up enough for nothing to come through .We live in a throw away society and the carpet industry is no different and they say most people change carpets every 7 years and this is the reason they are trying to make them more environmentally acceptable .Most customers couldnt give a damm about what is hidden under their carpet and if you advised them about gaps etc and it would cost an extra etc etc they would turn their nose up mate .
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ok Tony reel your neck in, I'm not having a pop at you
you asked a question and I answered it, ( which I notice you have avoided on my question) I do have experience of carpet fitting but not exclusively and its not to extent that you have but I can still spot a fitting fault when I see one and in my time used to carry out reports for the likes of John Lewis, Harrods etc on customer complaints regarding carpets and furnishings.
On the picture above, if I was asked to inspect, it would be straight forward recommendation to uplift and replace at the fitters or his employers expense.....Unless;
As an experienced carpet fitter you would expect that he would have advised the customer (and his company) that this property would be experiencing draught movement and as such if the carpet was fitted with out dealing with the air movement 'first' then the likelihood is that severe draught marking would appear, around the skirting's, stair posts and even through floor board joins.
I have and I bet you have, seen the complete outline of a floor 'through' the carpet as a result of severe draught marking.This can be mitigated to a point by laying paper underlay (not newspaper) under the underlay and sealing it with tape and also sealing the joins around where the skirting's meet the floor, this was done as standard years ago by John Lewis, I have no idea if it still is..However even after doing all this some draught marking may still appear in properties especially those of age and in inner cities where air pollution is higher...If this is made aware (and they sign off on it) to the customer and the employer/contractor and they refuse the extra cost (because many see this as just an 'add on') then you are covered when it occurs.
In the example above he 'has' punctured the backing with the kicker,draughts would move 'between' the underlay and the carpet causing those marks, it would not be necessarily that he has also punctured the underlay.
So it would be tough fighting this one even after doing the above in my opinion and presumably he would have been aware of the problem beforehand (or his employer would) as they woud have visited the property beforehand and seen it on the previous carpet when doing the survey and quote, if not then the property its self and the location would flag up a potential problem.
I hope this explains where I am coming from and it is not a criticism of any ones ability to do there job,
(You have to be so careful now days people are so touchy, must be the hot weather ;D)
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I too have been fitting for 32 years and I totally agree with what Tony is saying (as my original post alluded to).
Hilton, it's you that needs to reel your neck in, you're way off the mark and some of your comments just shows the total lack of carpet installation knowledge you have. If you don't know what you're talking about then you shouldn't presume what you're spitting out is correct.
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I totally agree with what Hilton has said. There are some really good carpet fitters and there are some really crap ones, just like in any walk of life. Any fitter worth his salt should be able to identify potential draught marking issues and advise accordingly. How many Belgian Wiltons have you ever seen which were fitted to British Standards. I've seen 1 in 20 years.
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Errr excuse me ,I have not been controversial or personal ( read the previous posts )or need my neck wound in I have not asked any questions or do I need to answer any ,who do you think you are ,I am merely giving an opinion on a post .I am not expecting you to agree with me but I am expecting you to respect my opinion just like I respect yours and other posters even though I do not agree with you and will refuse to be dragged into a childish tit for tat .
And thank you Dawsons from a fellow fitter who understands.
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I inspected a job today for cleaning and/or replacement and I couldn't believe how bad the filtration marks were, both around the skirting and coming up through floorboards gaps in the centre of the room.
I have been fitting for 32 years and also used to sub-contract for John Lewis about 10 years ago.
In those days you had to adhere to BS standards - that meant laying paper interliner and silicone sealing gaps around skirting.
The job I saw today obviously did not adhere to any of this - I should have taken pictures as it was some of the worst filtration marks I have seen.
Knee kickers puncture the backing of carpets, that much is not in dispute, but it's all down to the survey prior to installation. You either know what you're looking for or you don't.
I managed to turn today's survey into a £1500 new installation, simply because I knew what to look for and knew how to prevent a future filtration mark problem.
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Any fitter worth his salt should be able to identify potential draught marking issues and advise accordingly.
Not if you're are fitting on existing underlay. No fitter pulls back all the underlay to check the floor boards lol.
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Oh dear......!
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Exactly right Dawsons ,if a carpet has been down 10 years and this appears ,how does anyone know the history behind it .You are guided by the customer and if they dont want to pay for these extras what do you do ,put them up against a wall ,and as for a disclaimer ,this would be done by the shop if at all, not the fitter.Many many times you go to a house and fit on the existing underlay as they dont want to replace it ,so it has been stapled and taped down ,no way do you or the customer want it pulled up which will cost them more .No one is disputing these marks or what they are ,but can a fitter be responsible for just doing his job as asked.I have also fitted for all the major companies in the past including John Lewis ( not that means didly squat ),as they are imo all the same ,they pay a contractor and make as much money as they can regardless, in the minimum amount of time ,we have laid underlay and carpet over terrible sub floors and questioned it ,to be told by the customer and the company just get on with it as its not your problem.So ten years down the line its the fitters fault .Now the local independent shop now thats different we have a different ethos and rely on repeat business ,but the major companies regardless of who they are are run by managers on a commission who knock out as much as they can to keep their jobs.And Steve with all due respect and I am not disputing you ,in all the years I and my partners and our fitters have been dealing and fitting carpets we have never been asked by any major company to adhere to BS standards .Thats not saying it is right.At the end of the day it all comes down to cost if these measures are going to be implemented on every job it will cost the customer more ,and the vast majority are not willing to do that .
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As I said Tony, that was 10 years ago that John Lewis insisted on everything being fitted to BS standards - but judging by what I saw yesterday they certainly don't anymore !
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Most new carpet installation done today are by sub contract fitters working for shops and stores. They are paid, usually a certain price for every square metre that they fit. That's it, they take the carpet and fit it, end of story. It is not down to them to advise about filtration marks, that should all have been done during the survey by the surveyor. In this case I can't see how the fitter can be blamed for future marks appearing.
On the other hand if the carpet is supplied and fitted by the fitter himself, he has more control over the complete installation and can advise accordingly. If he doesn't bother to point out potential future problems then he could be potentially blamed. However in many cases the customer doesn't want to pay for extra work and may simply tell him just to lay the carpet.
Whichever way you look at it, the floor/skirting etc is to blame for filtration marks appearing, the only person who may also share the responsibility is the one who should have advised re: the potential problem.
Dave.
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Totally agree Dave ,how can a fitter be responsible for something 10 years ago. Who knows what could have happened in that time ,the carpet could have been uplifted and refitted ,it could have been restretched or re adapted ,any insurance accessor would not give this the time of day and if an insurance company or customer came back to me after ten years and said they were going to claim against me for the same thing I would say "good luck with that then ...next ".
And Dave has hit the nail on the head re contractors ,they just do as they are told ,this is not a new practice it has been going on for 20 years plus and all the big companies are the same regardless of who they are ,in fact I and my colleagues have found over the years that the so called up market companies were worse than the others as they rely on their reputation .Its all about money,customers want more for less and so do the companies.
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I agree with everyone who says its the floors fault... Everyone has seemed to overlook that its also the customers fault for being such cheepskates!... just because they cant visibly see it does not mean it couldnt do with replacing... ive had cleaning jobs in the past where the customer has not even have ANY underlay! I mean how fricking cheapskate is that? Its also the winds fault for causing the draughts...
Regarding the picture, i was cleaning a carpet for a friend of mine the other day (I did advise them that they had an extremely sh*t carpet) believe me it was one of those jobs that when you start cleaning it, it refuses to look good even after the millionth pass no matter what product you use on it... you know the ones? the jobs that end up taking 4 times longer than every other job!
Anyway these here similar marks wicked up as i was cleaning the stair carpet on the second floor & were an absolute arss to get rid of... Now i know this was not rust from the nails, as i know the colour of rust... the marks looked identical to these... but could they also have been draught marks? reason i ask is that.... (picture this...Stairs over stairs) in a 3 floor house... could it still be draught marks?
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It could also have been a "Ghostly Message" from a tortured soul.... as you continued cleaning did it spell anything out? it looks like it was trying to.... ;)
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Where in the original post did it say the carpet was ten years old ? not that , that matters.
And how can an inanimate object be at 'fault', its laughable to suggest it, but if its not then its definitely the customers fault...... ::)roll The customer trusts the appointed fitter is competent, they have to, so when the fitter does so much damage to carpet as shown in the picture how is the customer at fault unless they have been pre-warned. ?
I keep hearing its all about money and it is to certain extent but its also about damage limitation and customer service, if as I posted earlier the customer is 'informed' that atmospheric conditions' could result in draught marking and they 'choose' to ignore it, then crack on.......if you have not informed them then your not doing your job properly even if you have been at it for 50 years.
I can see it now, crappy carpet cleaner shrinks a Wilton and says 'sorry missus its the floors fault er no its the skirting boards fault for withdrawing away from the wet carpet, no infact its your fault missus, you should have spent more money on extra gripper and not let me put down so much moisture but any way Ive been cleaning for 25 years so it can't be anything I have done.
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Yes Hilton you are right ten years have not been mentioned ,it was meant to be rhetorical ,but I hold my hands up to that meteoric piece of misinformation and bow to your stealth in looking through all the posts to dig up that nugget !!! and like you so rightly point out "not that that matters "so why mention it !!
Carpet cleaning is not carpet fitting, both have their expertise but be sensible if you shrink a carpet you will see the damage before you leave or perhaps a little later ,these draught marks probably did not materialize for years and who knows what has gone on after you leave ,like I previously posted it could have been readapted ,restretched taken up and had new underlay and could have been refitted by anyone ,my point is a fitter cannot be responsible for something that happened a long time after the event especially if he has done what he has been asked and fitted it as he sees right,and there does not appear to be damage to the pile . But I think you are missing the point ,a point which others seem to be able to discuss and air through their experience and informative posts as oppose to your sarcasm and irony .