Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: SunShineCleaning on July 09, 2013, 12:04:43 pm
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Below is the question and photo I posted on a H&S forum I use.
We use a 30 foot water fed pole to clean these windows.
Any dangers?
(http://i1272.photobucket.com/albums/y388/Stuart_Webster/20130528_080106_zpsfd5519d5.jpg) (http://s1272.photobucket.com/user/Stuart_Webster/media/20130528_080106_zpsfd5519d5.jpg.html)
This is the conversation:
Loads.
Manual handling / RSI / slips & trips / moving vehicles / work in low light / cold / wet / sun / ice / snow / live street lights at 240v / Pigeon poo / dog dirt / abuse and harrassment from passers by /
And finally - annoying the residents before 6am in the morning, because that is the time of low traffic volume, and your only opportunity to safely park on the road and block the pavements.
Where do I claim my prize sir.
Sorry no prize.
I meant any that you can see have yet to be addressed.
In other words what further should the operator do to minimise risk.
Wow - that's a difficult question Stuart.
For example, the picture doesn't address staff training or equipment maintenance.
So I'll stick with the original answer, plus:
- Driver license / vehicle pre-use checks
- a second person to act as a watchout / banksman
- Waterproof PPE clothing
- Welfare facilities
- liase with the shopkeepers to reduce business disruption
The list could be endless
Thanks for your replies.
I'll come clean, it has been suggested that due to falling poles etc that the area be cordoned off somehow, or that a banksman be used.
Does that sound reasonable?
Yes it does Stuart.
The user will need to be standing kerbside on the pavement to get the upwards reach onto the top windows.
That leaves a large, open, inviting space for people to walk underneath the working area, regardless of any signs and bollards.
The public are going to get wet at best, and even worse if there is an equipment failure.
It is work at height - even when the user is standing at ground level.
The window cleaners I do work for go out and clean the high street shopping areas at 4am to 6am to beat the rush.
Hence my comment about your upstairs residents being woken up when the reach & wash gear is banging on the windows before dawn.
I would do it at another time of low pedestrain traffic, and/or low vehicular traffic to avoid disruption.
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Forums are full of people who think they are experts but actually know little. Just look at this one ;D
And H&S forums will be full of people who love to put restrictions on how you work, cos they'll all be H&S jobsworths.
Perfect example:
- liase with the shopkeepers to reduce business disruption
Is that a H&S consideration? NOPE!
I notice he didn't ask how long it would take, which would surely be an important factor to consider if cordons etc would be resonable. (ie is it reasonably practical to spend an hour setting up a cordon for a 10 minute job? Probably not.)
Sorry but I'd take no notice. The opinions of H&S busybody's don't mean anything, they only way you can find out is if you're in court and the judge makes a ruling that you didn't comply. Would any reasonable person think you needed a cordon for a 10 minute job? Nah.
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I would agree that a second person as a lookout would be sensible.
But also think that the respondent to your question has gone overboard with a lot of his advice, some of which is negligible.
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He works in the H&S sector and advises window cleaners.
He is the guy that the courts would ask if it is a reasonable thing to do or not.
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He works in the H&S sector and advises window cleaners.
He is the guy that the courts would ask if it is a reasonable thing to do or not.
How credible is this person?
Has he ever been summoned to a court case, or is it possible that one day he might be asked?
And if he has been to court what cases has he been involved in?
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He works in the H&S sector and advises window cleaners.
He is the guy that the courts would ask if it is a reasonable thing to do or not.
Yeah yeah. Don't believe everything you read on forums.
"I work in the H&S sector" may mean "I'm the designated H&S person for my compnay of 5 people, and I tell the window cleaners what to do"
Advises courts what's reasonable? Again, pinch of salt time.
remember H&S jobsworths always want to highlight risks that are so small they are negligable. And if he does indeed "work in the H&S sector and advise what's reasonable" then why didnt he ask how long the job would take? Vital information in deciding IMO.
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I often find that when people are trying to tell me about H&S they do not hold any qualifications.
H&S is about risk and the controls, if a ten minute cleaning task is low risk then stick up a warning sign and start work.
If a ten minute work task is high risk, controls are needed.
Steve
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Well let's not poo poo the point of Stuart's post because it is beneficial to all of us.
But I do feel it's important to know how well qualified and experienced the H&S advisor is to make a judgement on his credibility in these matters.
I would challenge some of the points he made such as waterproof ppe being a requirement, abuse and harassment from passers-by, pigeon poo etc.
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It depends if your cleaning as a self employed cleaner you need to know about the regulations but you may not be putting employees at risk, so a lot and health and safety like water proof PPE may not be required.
But if you are employing someone to do the work for you..............
Having said that you are responsible for your actions and omissions from your work tasks.
H&S is about common sense and self employed people have bags of it.
Steve
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Well let's not poo poo the point of Stuart's post because it iqualificationsal to all of us.
But I do feel it's important to know how well qualified and experienced the H&S advisor is to make a judgement on his credibility in these matters.
I would challenge some of points he made such as waterproof ppe being a requirement, abuse and harassment from passers-by, pigeon poo etc.
Thank you for not poo pooing. At least you see the point. As for their qualifications I will ask, but I may just as well ask Pete what his qualifications are for his point of view.
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H&S advisers need to be qualified/competent to give advice as this is a serious subject and most are.
Steve
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H&S advisers need to be qualified/competent to give advice as this is a serious subject and most are.
They don't need to be qualified to give advice on a forum though.
As for my qualifications - my most important one is that I have common sense! I don't need a qualification to tell me that spending an hour setting up a cordon for a 10 mnute job is not reasonably practical. its OBVIOUS. And I'm sure any court would agree with me.
and I know how to window clean. I've also seen what the law says in one of the many impact43 topics, and to me its pretty obvious you don't need a cordon. You don't need H&S qualifications to make sense of it IMO
If he is such an expert on this, ask him :
- How many prosecutions have there been against window cleaners using poles who didnt use a cordon?
- How many people have been injured by falling poles in the last 5 years?
Sunshine, give us a link to this forum, I think we should organise a CIU invasion force.
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Oh Lordie; we're not back on the cordon debate again are we?
::)roll
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So a topic is raised and Andrew gives his opinion, he is vilified because of it.
I present a similar scenario and the advice from a H&S trainer is just about the same and guess what...?
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So a topic is raised and Andrew gives his opinion, he is vilified because of it.
I present a similar scenario and the advice from a H&S trainer is just about the same and guess what...?
Look; if you are not interested in the response of others on this forum and feel you are vilified for raising your opinion. Don't.
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So a topic is raised and Andrew gives his opinion, he is vilified because of it.
I present a similar scenario and the advice from a H&S trainer is just about the same and guess what...?
Look; if you are not interested in the response of others on this forum and feel you are vilified for raising your opinion. Don't.
I don't mind what posters say. Trevor was asking for andrews picture so he could debate it. I'm simply showing that Andrews view is consistant with other H&S trainers.
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I'll come clean, it has been suggested that due to falling poles etc that the area be cordoned off somehow, or that a banksman be used.
Does that sound reasonable?
That is a loaded question. He's not going to say no is he? That would be a ridiculous thing for a H&S person to say. He gave you the answer you knew he would give. If you had explained to him that if you were to cordon the area you clean in all day every day you'd be bust in a month; his response would be different.
Edit: In fact when I think about it you asked him for advice on it; a cordon was not mentioned in his reply so you loaded your question to get the answer you wanted. The cordon was not suggested by your H&S expert it was you.
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So a topic is raised and Andrew gives his opinion, he is vilified because of it.
I present a similar scenario and the advice from a H&S trainer is just about the same and guess what...?
this scenario is nothing like the one Andrew uses in his course and the outcome Andrew recommended for his scenario was a cherrypicker, if Andrew does not want to post his picture then that is his decision but it would of been good to get other window cleaners thoughts just as it was good to get thoughts on your scenario in which I would of used warning cones and had a banksman, the other risks manual handling slips and trips are already covered in my risk assessments.
I honestly had not thought of the pidgeon poo problem but would of thought the fact that it would be wet down would remove the risk for the amount that is present, we could go further what about willes disease from handling trailing hoses where rats might of urinated it would probably be wise to wash hands after handling the hose on each job.
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What trevor just said is so true!
I wonder if they looked at a section of our hose in a microscope what nasties are residing there, might be time to anti bac my hose !
I always reel in with a cloth in hand and use antibacterial gel but still weils disease would be easily on hoses after all the ground they cover and the areas they go in ....
i've had a bad infection in my foot which i reckon is work related , had best part of 4 weeks off now and still lay up on antibiotics so i take it seriously now avoiding infection!
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I'll come clean, it has been suggested that due to falling poles etc that the area be cordoned off somehow, or that a banksman be used.
Does that sound reasonable?
That is a loaded question. He's not going to say no is he? That would be a ridiculous thing for a H&S person to say. He gave you the answer you knew he would give. If you had explained to him that if you were to cordon the area you clean in all day every day you'd be bust in a month; his response would be different.
Edit: In fact when I think about it you asked him for advice on it; a cordon was not mentioned in his reply so you loaded your question to get the answer you wanted. The cordon was not suggested by your H&S expert it was you.
I was careful not to ask that question first, it was only after he had mentioned a banksman.
Trevor, this may not be the same picture as Andrew used as I don't work in the same environment that the said picture was taken.
The point of this is to demonstrate that H&S trainers think in a similar way. Do you remember my picture of the windows next to the river? You would just love the replies I received.
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I was careful not to ask that question first, it was only after he had mentioned a banksman..
Re-reading his reply he pretty much said a cordon would be of little use:
That leaves a large, open, inviting space for people to walk underneath the working area, regardless of any signs and bollards.
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I was careful not to ask that question first, it was only after he had mentioned a banksman..
Re-reading his reply he pretty much said a cordon would be of little use:
That leaves a large, open, inviting space for people to walk underneath the working area, regardless of any signs and bollards.
Strange, I read that the other way.
The bollards and sign STILL leave a large open space for people to walk underneath AND still be a at risk of falling objects.
As it happens I don't cordon off, this picture is how I do it. If someone is passing, work stops.
I'm only showing that H&S people think a certain way.
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Ok what if you were to cordon off the pavement area in front of the shops so passers-by could not walk on the pavement.
This was with your best intentions to protect a member of the public from a possible injury of a water fed pole falling on them.
Joe public then chooses to walk into the road because the pavement has been blocked by the cordon and gets knocked down by a car.
What then?
And because you did not have official permission to cordon off the pavement and are restricting a public walkway you would have the book thrown at you!
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Aha, my favour bull s/hit topic.
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Ok what if you were to cordon off the pavement area in front of the shops so passers-by could not walk on the pavement.
This was with your best intentions to protect a member of the public from a possible injury of a water fed pole falling on them.
Joe public then chooses to walk into the road because the pavement has been blocked by the cordon and gets knocked down by a car.
What then?
And because you did not have official permission to cordon off the pavement and are restricting a public walkway you would have the book thrown at you!
if you block the pavement you have to provide a safe walking passage around the area or tell people the footpath is closed and to use another, we was told in notts that because we didnt have room for an extra footpath we was to use a banksman who would have to help people across the rd, (not a busy area)
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load a b**cks just get on with it and get it cleaned for god sake! worse than girls some people with putting cones out, your cones are more of a hazard than anything else in that photo
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I got some bargain socks in one of those shops. It was an outdoor type place that was shutting down last year.
£3 per pair, so I got 5 pairs. They will last years......... ;D
I was on holiday, it rained the entire time.
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I was on holiday, it rained the entire time.
sure it was raining and not someone cleaning the windows above ;D
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The van is parked almost on the corner making it
1) dangerous for other road users
2) probably illegal
3) uneccesary and easily avoidable
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Yes, all those cones look like a trip hazard.
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So a topic is raised and Andrew gives his opinion, he is vilified because of it.
I present a similar scenario and the advice from a H&S trainer is just about the same and guess what...?
this scenario is nothing like the one Andrew uses in his course and the outcome Andrew recommended for his scenario was a cherrypicker, if Andrew does not want to post his picture then that is his decision but it would of been good to get other window cleaners thoughts just as it was good to get thoughts on your scenario in which I would of used warning cones and had a banksman, the other risks manual handling slips and trips are already covered in my risk assessments.
I honestly had not thought of the pidgeon poo problem but would of thought the fact that it would be wet down would remove the risk for the amount that is present, we could go further what about willes disease from handling trailing hoses where rats might of urinated it would probably be wise to wash hands after handling the hose on each job.
Trevor, Initially I had no problem, then thinking about it is there really any point.
Over the weekend on the FWC SOS Facebook your clearly spelt out your support for our trade association. What I feel would put closure on this whole matter and would clearly help certain CIU members would be to call a meeting with Bryan Dolby and the FWC committee, request our trade association cover the cost of a QC, invite the working at height team from the HSE, representatives from Lloyds underwriting, and a Judge. I!ll attend along with a couple of contacts and we can address the photos and the case I use. I will be happy to provide all the information and other examples this way we can challange all attendng. Clearly the traffic this subject gets warrants our trade association clearing up the doubt, uncertaincy and arrive at a difinitive legal view, I see no point in wasting time on this issue on CIU
I also would recommend also Stuarts image, this would be a an opportunity for you to do something constructive and positive for the industry, I support this 100%
Balls in your court
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For example, the picture doesn't address staff training or equipment maintenance. Thats because it isnt the question.
So I'll stick with the original answer, plus:
- Driver license / vehicle pre-use checks Nothing to do with the job being discussed
- a second person to act as a watchout / banksman
- Waterproof PPE clothing Waterproof, really?
- Welfare facilities What, I hope he's not suggesting a porty-loo on site.
- liase with the shopkeepers to reduce business disruption Oh for gods sake.
The list could be endless Depends how bored you are I guess
That leaves a large, open, inviting space for people to walk underneath the working area, regardless of any signs and bollards. If there are signs and bollards, you Know what they say about not being able to educate a turd.
The public are going to get wet at best, and even worse if there is an equipment failure. With that attitude Im surprised the H&S man gets as far wiping his arse in the morning.
It is work at height - even when the user is standing at ground level. Anything to guarantee a days work I suppose
The window cleaners I do work for go out and clean the high street shopping areas at 4am to 6am to beat the rush. What of? Suicidal pedestrians?
Hence my comment about your upstairs residents being woken up when the reach & wash gear is banging on the windows before dawn. Hey they asked for their windows to be cleaned
I would do it at another time of low pedestrain traffic, and/or low vehicular traffic to avoid disruption. Oh come on, you only work 9-5 sat behind a desk
;D
Stuart could you get this fella to join the forum?
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So a topic is raised and Andrew gives his opinion, he is vilified because of it.
I present a similar scenario and the advice from a H&S trainer is just about the same and guess what...?
this scenario is nothing like the one Andrew uses in his course and the outcome Andrew recommended for his scenario was a cherrypicker, if Andrew does not want to post his picture then that is his decision but it would of been good to get other window cleaners thoughts just as it was good to get thoughts on your scenario in which I would of used warning cones and had a banksman, the other risks manual handling slips and trips are already covered in my risk assessments.
I honestly had not thought of the pidgeon poo problem but would of thought the fact that it would be wet down would remove the risk for the amount that is present, we could go further what about willes disease from handling trailing hoses where rats might of urinated it would probably be wise to wash hands after handling the hose on each job.
Trevor, Initially I had no problem, then thinking about it is there really any point.
Over the weekend on the FWC SOS Facebook your clearly spelt out your support for our trade association. What I feel would put closure on this whole matter and would clearly help certain CIU members would be to call a meeting with Bryan Dolby and the FWC committee, request our trade association cover the cost of a QC, invite the working at height team from the HSE, representatives from Lloyds underwriting, and a Judge. I!ll attend along with a couple of contacts and we can address the photos and the case I use. I will be happy to provide all the information and other examples this way we can challange all attendng. Clearly the traffic this subject gets warrants our trade association clearing up the doubt, uncertaincy and arrive at a difinitive legal view, I see no point in wasting time on this issue on CIU
I also would recommend also Stuarts image, this would be a an opportunity for you to do something constructive and positive for the industry, I support this 100%
Balls in your court
Andrew I don't want to make a big deal out of this i just thought it would be good to get other window cleaners views I cant see the point of paying a QC and a judge etc a shed full of money from members subscriptions. These men would have no experience of window cleaning so cant understand why I would want their opinion when the FED is quite capable of coming up with guidance for our industry.
My attitude obviously winds you up a bit the same as some of your views irritate me and I don't want to get into an argument with you as I do value many of your opinions so lets just say we agree to disagree.
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ffs what a load of faff,wouldnt think twice about health and safety I would just clean them and get on with it!
Its more dangerous crossing the road
We are window cleaners that clean windows and don't think about stupid what ifs!
Time you had counted lumps of dog doo I would be finished and on another job!
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How many people have been injured by being hit by a falling water fed pole ? . . . . Many people are now earning there living by dreaming up new theoretical ways of how people could be harmed, by a million to one chance event !
They claim to be " making it safer ", but in reality are not only lining their own pockets, but worse,are putting a financial burden on ordinary businesses.
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How many people have been injured by being hit by a falling water fed pole ? . . . . Many people are now earning there living by dreaming up new theoretical ways of how people could be harmed, by a million to one chance event !
They claim to be " making it safer ", but in reality are not only lining their own pockets, but worse,are putting a financial burden on ordinary businesses.
+1
That's the trouble with this industry that theres so many slithery snakes trying to earn money coming out with such clap trap!
Too many greedy lazy people who seem to feel they are involved with the industry but aren't!
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How many people have been injured by being hit by a falling water fed pole ? . . . . Many people are now earning there living by dreaming up new theoretical ways of how people could be harmed, by a million to one chance event !
They claim to be " making it safer ", but in reality are not only lining their own pockets, but worse,are putting a financial burden on ordinary businesses.
+1
That's the trouble with this industry that theres so many slithery snakes trying to earn money coming out with such clap trap!
Too many greedy lazy people who seem to feel they are involved with the industry but aren't!
+2
I'd love someone to show up here with some hard facts about poles injuring someone.
I dare say I could let my pole fall on someone the brush is so light it probably wouldn't injure them.
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Lad I know dropped a 72' with an 18inch commercial brush.
Hit a parked car.
Didn't even dent the roof, just a bit if t cutting and it was right as rain.
Don't think thee are many heavier poles than that.
Wouldn't do your bonce and favours if it GD clonked you on the noggin though I shouldn't think.
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I thought H & S was about managing risk to an acceptable level taking into account the job being done and the circumstances.
Seems for some it's about eliminating any potential risk to the point where working becomes impossible.
When crossing the road there's a risk of getting run over but that does not mean you cannot dross the road because of that risk.
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ffs what a load of faff,wouldnt think twice about health and safety I would just clean them and get on with it!
Its more dangerous crossing the road
We are window cleaners that clean windows and don't think about stupid what ifs!
Time you had counted lumps of dog doo I would be finished and on another job!
and you are thinking of employing,your be a great boss to work for :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
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So a topic is raised and Andrew gives his opinion, he is vilified because of it.
I present a similar scenario and the advice from a H&S trainer is just about the same and guess what...?
this scenario is nothing like the one Andrew uses in his course and the outcome Andrew recommended for his scenario was a cherrypicker, if Andrew does not want to post his picture then that is his decision but it would of been good to get other window cleaners thoughts just as it was good to get thoughts on your scenario in which I would of used warning cones and had a banksman, the other risks manual handling slips and trips are already covered in my risk assessments.
I honestly had not thought of the pidgeon poo problem but would of thought the fact that it would be wet down would remove the risk for the amount that is present, we could go further what about willes disease from handling trailing hoses where rats might of urinated it would probably be wise to wash hands after handling the hose on each job.
Trevor, Initially I had no problem, then thinking about it is there really any point.
Over the weekend on the FWC SOS Facebook your clearly spelt out your support for our trade association. What I feel would put closure on this whole matter and would clearly help certain CIU members would be to call a meeting with Bryan Dolby and the FWC committee, request our trade association cover the cost of a QC, invite the working at height team from the HSE, representatives from Lloyds underwriting, and a Judge. I!ll attend along with a couple of contacts and we can address the photos and the case I use. I will be happy to provide all the information and other examples this way we can challange all attendng. Clearly the traffic this subject gets warrants our trade association clearing up the doubt, uncertaincy and arrive at a difinitive legal view, I see no point in wasting time on this issue on CIU
I also would recommend also Stuarts image, this would be a an opportunity for you to do something constructive and positive for the industry, I support this 100%
Balls in your court
Andrew I don't want to make a big deal out of this i just thought it would be good to get other window cleaners views I cant see the point of paying a QC and a judge etc a shed full of money from members subscriptions. These men would have no experience of window cleaning so cant understand why I would want their opinion when the FED is quite capable of coming up with guidance for our industry.
My attitude obviously winds you up a bit the same as some of your views irritate me and I don't want to get into an argument with you as I do value many of your opinions so lets just say we agree to disagree.
I can't seem to find any written info on this issue from the FWC, maybe you could help us out Trevor
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i saw a really good cordon tother week. fascia lads had it set up in a front garden ,they were fitting a fascia to a house . cordons are better than cones
up the cordons!!
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So a topic is raised and Andrew gives his opinion, he is vilified because of it.
I present a similar scenario and the advice from a H&S trainer is just about the same and guess what...?
this scenario is nothing like the one Andrew uses in his course and the outcome Andrew recommended for his scenario was a cherrypicker, if Andrew does not want to post his picture then that is his decision but it would of been good to get other window cleaners thoughts just as it was good to get thoughts on your scenario in which I would of used warning cones and had a banksman, the other risks manual handling slips and trips are already covered in my risk assessments.
I honestly had not thought of the pidgeon poo problem but would of thought the fact that it would be wet down would remove the risk for the amount that is present, we could go further what about willes disease from handling trailing hoses where rats might of urinated it would probably be wise to wash hands after handling the hose on each job.
Trevor, Initially I had no problem, then thinking about it is there really any point.
Over the weekend on the FWC SOS Facebook your clearly spelt out your support for our trade association. What I feel would put closure on this whole matter and would clearly help certain CIU members would be to call a meeting with Bryan Dolby and the FWC committee, request our trade association cover the cost of a QC, invite the working at height team from the HSE, representatives from Lloyds underwriting, and a Judge. I!ll attend along with a couple of contacts and we can address the photos and the case I use. I will be happy to provide all the information and other examples this way we can challange all attendng. Clearly the traffic this subject gets warrants our trade association clearing up the doubt, uncertaincy and arrive at a difinitive legal view, I see no point in wasting time on this issue on CIU
I also would recommend also Stuarts image, this would be a an opportunity for you to do something constructive and positive for the industry, I support this 100%
Balls in your court
Andrew I don't want to make a big deal out of this i just thought it would be good to get other window cleaners views I cant see the point of paying a QC and a judge etc a shed full of money from members subscriptions. These men would have no experience of window cleaning so cant understand why I would want their opinion when the FED is quite capable of coming up with guidance for our industry.
My attitude obviously winds you up a bit the same as some of your views irritate me and I don't want to get into an argument with you as I do value many of your opinions so lets just say we agree to disagree.
I can't seem to find any written info on this issue from the FWC, maybe you could help us out Trevor
[/qu
Here is a link http://www.f-w-c.co.uk/water_fed_poles.htm is a link
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http://www.f-w-c.co.uk/documents/Safety_in_Window_Cleaning_using_Waterfed_Pole_Systems.Ameded2.pdf
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http://www.f-w-c.co.uk/documents/Safety_in_Window_Cleaning_using_Waterfed_Pole_Systems.Ameded2.pdf
Page 5 under Risk Assessment, I rest my case
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Stuart have you read page 6 of the FWC document?
What do you think of the DO'S & DON'TS:
*Always cordon off and/or display suitable warning signs when working in public areas
Hardly definitive about cordoning off is it?
As they give the option of using suitable warning signs instead of a cordon.
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http://www.f-w-c.co.uk/documents/Safety_in_Window_Cleaning_using_Waterfed_Pole_Systems.Ameded2.pdf
Page 5 under Risk Assessment, I rest my case
How do you cordon the road off, or do you ask the council for a road closure?
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Lad I know dropped a 72' with an 18inch commercial brush.
Hit a parked car.
Didn't even dent the roof, just a bit if t cutting and it was right as rain.
Don't think thee are many heavier poles than that.
Wouldn't do your bonce and favours if it GD clonked you on the noggin though I shouldn't think.
You don't say what height he dropped the pole from. I know from personal experience that they will more than put a dent in a car roof from about 50 foot. I've snapped an Smax clean in half. Someone else from here dropped one and snapped a heavy vikan brush clean in half.
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We are getting somewhere now.
My picture IS different from Andrew's and the FWC guidelines DO mention cordoning off.
Andrew's picture was on more of a plaza.
So seeing as 2 training providers and the FWC say that there are circumstances where cordoning may be used, under what circumstances WOULD you use a cordon?
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We are getting somewhere now.
My picture IS different from Andrew's and the FWC guidelines DO mention cordoning off.
Andrew's picture was on more of a plaza.
So seeing as 2 training providers and the FWC say that there are circumstances where cordoning may be used, under what circumstances WOULD you use a cordon?
That'll be when it is reasonably practicable to do so of course!
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We are getting somewhere now.
My picture IS different from Andrew's and the FWC guidelines DO mention cordoning off.
Andrew's picture was on more of a plaza.
So seeing as 2 training providers and the FWC say that there are circumstances where cordoning may be used, under what circumstances WOULD you use a cordon?
That'll be when it is reasonably practicable to do so of course!
Top politicians answer. Like it.
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We are getting somewhere now.
My picture IS different from Andrew's and the FWC guidelines DO mention cordoning off.
Andrew's picture was on more of a plaza.
So seeing as 2 training providers and the FWC say that there are circumstances where cordoning may be used, under what circumstances WOULD you use a cordon?
In a fictitious scenario which would look good on paper but wouldn't be practical to use in a real life situation?
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We are getting somewhere now.
My picture IS different from Andrew's and the FWC guidelines DO mention cordoning off.
Andrew's picture was on more of a plaza.
So seeing as 2 training providers and the FWC say that there are circumstances where cordoning may be used, under what circumstances WOULD you use a cordon?
In a fictitious scenario which would look good on paper but wouldn't be practical to use in a real life situation?
;D
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I retract the comment I made above ^.
But im struggling to see how it would be practical in a lot of situations.
The only situations I can think of would be:
1) A shopping precinct where no motor vehicles have access and where the cordon would not be restrictive to the general public.
2) A business premises where an area could be practically made "out of bounds" temporarily to other members of staff.
3) A pedestrianised high street.
What permissions would be required to cordon of an area in these situations, and where would you go to get permission and from whom?
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Lad I know dropped a 72' with an 18inch commercial brush.
Hit a parked car.
Didn't even dent the roof, just a bit if t cutting and it was right as rain.
Don't think thee are many heavier poles than that.
Wouldn't do your bonce and favours if it GD clonked you on the noggin though I shouldn't think.
You don't say what height he dropped the pole from. I know from personal experience that they will more than put a dent in a car roof from about 50 foot. I've snapped an Smax clean in half. Someone else from here dropped one and snapped a heavy vikan brush clean in half.
It was fully extended. What's that-68foot?
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I retract the comment I made above ^.
But im struggling to see how it would be practical in a lot of situations.
The only situations I can think of would be:
1) A shopping precinct where no motor vehicles have access and where the cordon would not be restrictive to the general public.
2) A business premises where an area could be practically made "out of bounds" temporarily to other members of staff.
3) A pedestrianised high street.
What permissions would be required to cordon of an area in these situations, and where would you go to get permission and from whom?
Its totally impractical and unnecessary to cordon this off.
I've cordoned off part of a street before to do this I had to go to the council and put in an application, fair bit of messing about with submitting drawings, risk assessment s etc.
The council then charged us per square metre per day for the area cordoned off and it wasn't cheap.
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We are getting somewhere now.
My picture IS different from Andrew's and the FWC guidelines DO mention cordoning off.
Andrew's picture was on more of a plaza.
So seeing as 2 training providers and the FWC say that there are circumstances where cordoning may be used, under what circumstances WOULD you use a cordon?
So you post a picture even though you know it was a lot different than Andrews scenario and use this as an example to cordon off, on Andrews course I pointed out that cordoning area off would cause greater risk than not doing as pedestrians would now have to cross a busy road his answer was yes that is right so it was decided he would use a cherrypicker, this is the reason I was keen for him to post his picture, for you to deliver a multi ton cherrypicker in a busy town centre drive this over flags that you are not sure lies underneath, then maybe having to leave the machine unattended till it is picked up where temptation for young boys to have a mess with not to mention cost of machine and training for suitable operative, enviromental impact aswell as risks occurring from using a cherrypicker, how possibly can this be a constructive answer to the problem, it was just silly there have been far more accidents from cherrypickers than falling water fed poles . My solution would of simply been use a trolley system with short hose and a warning cone which would of eliminated a trip hazard from running longer hoses, I would then of had a banksman to ensure pedestrians safety obviously wind speed and other weather conditions ie ice would also be taken into considersation.
I don't think anyone has said cordoning off should be ruled out on all occasions but this is not what Andrew is suggesting rather he is after putting in place a blanket rule or law that cordoning off must take place whereas the FED version gives the option of letting us think for ourselves and only use this precaution if we deem it needed.
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Stuart
Does that PDF show you that the FWC does produce some useless stuff, and they actually do something ?
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Stuart
Does that PDF show you that the FWC does produce some useless stuff, and they actually do something ?
Absolutely and whatever happens I will recommend people join.
Sorry to miss your call. On the phone and out on a bike ride tonight.
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We are getting somewhere now.
My picture IS different from Andrew's and the FWC guidelines DO mention cordoning off.
Andrew's picture was on more of a plaza.
So seeing as 2 training providers and the FWC say that there are circumstances where cordoning may be used, under what circumstances WOULD you use a cordon?
So you post a picture even though you know it was a lot different than Andrews scenario and use this as an example to cordon off, on Andrews course I pointed out that cordoning area off would cause greater risk than not doing as pedestrians would now have to cross a busy road his answer was yes that is right so it was decided he would use a cherrypicker, this is the reason I was keen for him to post his picture, for you to deliver a multi ton cherrypicker in a busy town centre drive this over flags that you are not sure lies underneath, then maybe having to leave the machine unattended till it is picked up where temptation for young boys to have a mess with not to mention cost of machine and training for suitable operative, enviromental impact aswell as risks occurring from using a cherrypicker, how possibly can this be a constructive answer to the problem, it was just silly there have been far more accidents from cherrypickers than falling water fed poles . My solution would of simply been use a trolley system with short hose and a warning cone which would of eliminated a trip hazard from running longer hoses, I would then of had a banksman to ensure pedestrians safety obviously wind speed and other weather conditions ie ice would also be taken into considersation.
I don't think anyone has said cordoning off should be ruled out on all occasions but this is not what Andrew is suggesting rather he is after putting in place a blanket rule or law that cordoning off must take place whereas the FED version gives the option of letting us think for ourselves and only use this precaution if we deem it needed.
I have the pictures and will post them tomorrow.
You and Andrew will never agree so I'm not sure of your motive here. TBH I've had enough of trying to explain that H&S people see things differently to traders. I guess that's just how life is.
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It was fully extended. What's that-68foot?
So, at last, we have a winner!
Darren Lane has successfully talked himself into having a Gardiners extreme brush dropped on his head from a 68' multi-storey car-park. All in the name of research. Just to prove that dropping a 68' WFP causes no more damage than a mere scrape.
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I think there are two types of H & S.
There is one that is pedantic and is about ticking boxes and quoting rules just for the sake of it and designed to make a simple job complex and bureaucratically impossible whilst encouraging paranoia about H & S while at the same time making gods out of those who are 'in the know' about such things.....
And then there is the other type, how to actually do the job taking into account the job being done and the circumstances whilst applying H & S but not to the point of utter stupidity.
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Over the weekend on the FWC SOS Facebook your clearly spelt out your support for our trade association. What I feel would put closure on this whole matter and would clearly help certain CIU members would be to call a meeting with Bryan Dolby and the FWC committee, request our trade association cover the cost of a QC, invite the working at height team from the HSE, representatives from Lloyds underwriting, and a Judge. I!ll attend along with a couple of contacts and we can address the photos and the case I use. I will be happy to provide all the information and other examples this way we can challange all attendng. Clearly the traffic this subject gets warrants our trade association clearing up the doubt, uncertaincy and arrive at a difinitive legal view, I see no point in wasting time on this issue on CIU
I also would recommend also Stuarts image, this would be a an opportunity for you to do something constructive and positive for the industry, I support this 100%
Balls in your court
Oh bejesus, why on earth would you want to do that?
To me this does not sound positive or constructive, quite the opposite. I would understand if people were being killed and maimed up and down the country by falling poles but they are not are they? The risk here is very low. I agree that there may be some cases which in order to remain safe a cordon may be necessary. The last thing any of us need is a ruling from the FWC the HSE or anyone else dictating what is legal and what isn't. Assess each job on its merits and take it from there.
I understand that as a health and safety person your motivation on this issue is different to ours but do not make out like you are trying to help. I don't want to be unsafe but in my view I take adequate precautions to avoid what is already quite a low risk.
It disappoints me that you have felt the need to delete your account again, I think you have much to contribute here and lots to gain also. Even if not everyone agrees with you all the time.
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I think there are two types of H & S.
There is one that is pedantic and is about ticking boxes and quoting rules just for the sake of it and designed to make a simple job complex and bureaucratically impossible whilst encouraging paranoia about H & S while at the same time making gods out of those who are 'in the know' about such things.....
And then there is the other type, how to actually do the job taking into account the job being done and the circumstances whilst applying H & S but not to the point of utter stupidity.
The voice of reason as usual Ross.
Type A) Gareth Keenan from the office
Type B) The guy who is a manager at a factory where I have been cleaning for the last ten years collars me and says have you guys got ten minutes I just want to cover some stuff we've done with our lads about fork trucks.
Showed us a couple of slides; pointed out that fork truck drivers can't see through the upright stanchions of their truck and that we should be vigilant when on the factory floor. Showed us a case study in which an office girl was walking across a factory floor and got mown down and crushed to death by a truck going at 3 - 5 mph but that because she was walking at about the same speed and the driver couldn't see her through the stanchion he just went into her and under the wheels she went.
A good reminder for us who saunter through the place knowing that trucks are there running at slow speeds but with everyone assuming they can see each other at all times this accident happened.
But there was no "course", no half day training session; just a common sense reminder that was relevant to our job for which we were grateful.
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I can't believe this ::)roll
Andrew Willis has deleted his account again? What's the matter with the bloke? From what I gather he's a nice guy but if he's not prepared to debate his side and listen to other peoples opinions then maybe he's in the wrong job. Health and safety isn't all black and white it's full of grey areas and always will be. People like him must understand that everything in life carries some risk - you can't just screw everything into the ground and eliminate everything otherwise there will be nothing.
Health and safety must listen to our needs too. There must be common sense in all this.
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I haven't been trained how to use a cone.
Can someone please show me how to use one
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Paint a large 'D' on it and attach a chin strap.
Oh, and goggles.
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Paint a large 'D' on it and attach a chin strap.
Oh, and goggles.
No! You should turn a cone upside down and fill it with ice cream and stick a flake in the side.