Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: stuart_clark on April 30, 2013, 12:13:09 pm
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Thats what a local carpet cleaner to me is Advertising ! Carpet cleaning from £19.00 and he is an NCCA member! I was charging more than that twenty years ago !
Stuart
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Let him get on with it. ;)
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The £19 could be tiny hallway or small rug. When i have called a few of them in the past they are never as cheap as first impressions.
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Still he has to get to the job, Its all about fuel, and thats one of my biggest overheads nearly five grand a year!!
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Stu, it is silly season with pricing at the moment, thing is they are not getting lots of extra work to cover the down pricing.
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His minimum call out could be £100 :-) , somehow doubt it though.
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Not in my area mate ! i chage £65 and get it but i haven't put it up in four years
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Im in the same boat, i finished for the day an hour ago as only had 3 jobs on today, last customer i did was a straight lounge that i did for her two and a half years ago. How much she says, £65 i say, she says im glad you have not put your prices up then in this resession. :-[
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Needs must..
I dont see a problem with holding prices static, you were probably over charging three years ago and in the current climate there has to be a period of adjustment, its just personal pride that you and others can not increase prices as you used to due to this period of austerity we are going through.
Anyone that was charging well years ago and has held on to that price while still keeping customers and aquiring new is doing very well. Its the more recent starters that will have to charge low to break into the market and these will drag down prices as a result, we know many will not last long as its not sustainable.
Of course some mid Atlantic guru with a perma tan will tell you that prices must go up but he ain't out there doing it is he, I could take a seminar and tell you all where you are going wrong,charge you for the privilage and then bugger off back to my villa.
I think most will do just fine, you just have to hold your nerve, dont be offended by low prices and also do not get involved in a race to the bottom.
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I was thinking about a job i did last friday afternoon, was about 200sq yds took me three hours from start to finish! i had two coffee breaks inbetween, I chaged them £350 and payment on completion, the Headmaster was over the moon and thought my quote was very reasonable, but when i was actualy cleaning, i though i could of charged at least £100 more! but after i had finished, I thought £115 an hour not bad realy and all it cost me was 12 sccops of Enzall, 8 scoops of F90 and about £3 on desil
stuart
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Paul
you should put photos of that leather suite you rescued on your website? if that dosent bring in a load of leather work, nothing will
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200sq feet £350 = £1.75 per foot makes you one of the highest paid cleaners on the planet
Ps What machine do you use these days
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Just a Scorpion Ian, although I do have a spare one as a back up and yes I am just a Poor Carpet Cleaner Mate
P S I charge nearly double that for Domestic work
Ian its sq yards mate ! need to put your glasses on ! Lol
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I was thinking about a job i did last friday afternoon, was about 200sq yds took me three hours from start to finish! i had two coffee breaks inbetween, I chaged them £350 and payment on completion, the Headmaster was over the moon and thought my quote was very reasonable, but when i was actualy cleaning, i though i could of charged at least £100 more! but after i had finished, I thought £115 an hour not bad realy and all it cost me was 12 sccops of Enzall, 8 scoops of F90 and about £3 on desil
stuart
You need to raise your prices 8)
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Thought my prices were recession beating £35 the 1st £25 any other on day £45 H-S-L and £49 lounge diner can't get phone to ring i'm in papers posting leaflets and got new website but nothing I think the area i'm in is full of cleaners doing half my prices i can't win people want a clean carpet at lowest price possible there not bothered about what we use or how we do it just aslong as looks good and cheap enough.
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Sorry mate but that is a load of Tosh! I live in Stockton, and work within a radias of about 70 miles! Iv'e always gone where the work is! not let distance put me off! Ive booked in over £700 today on Domestic work but the majority of my work is commercial, and although the teeside area isn't the most afluent I have always got good prices and never let the cheapies bother me, they cant compete with the quality of my work and you will find they use the cheapest of cleaning solutions
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Stuart
As you are obviously on your mobile do you go 70 miles for just one lounge.
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Stuart
As you are obviously on your mobile do you go 70 miles for just one lounge.
Do you bonnet commercials if so what machine
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Yes Ian and Yes
I have gone further than 70 miles to do a 20sq yd lounge but customer was charged £95
I mainly use bonnet/rotarys for my commercials! ive two Chemspec Chemstractors, One Rotabrite machine, two Dry Fusion machines and my newest edition is a Jiber but i am very interested in the Spray Borg I might have one before long
and yes Ian before you ask i have two people who work for me
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Thats what a local carpet cleaner to me is Advertising ! Carpet cleaning from £19.00 and he is an NCCA member! I was charging more than that twenty years ago !
Stuart
I do wonder how these people pay their bills?
Maybe they're in debt.
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Wondered how you did 200 sq yards in 3 hours.
2 helpers....that's still good going with a porty.
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No mate i did that one by myself! and it was actually under three hours
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Well I can't get phone to ring at my prices and I'm fair I do a good job and use good chems just looked at my books and from January to today I have made £1068 all gone back into trying to get phone to ring advertising website etc this is the worst start to a year yet I'm scared I don't want to give up but think it might be the time to look for a job and keep a porty for beer money
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How'd you do 200 sq yards in 3 hours??
Bonneting or porty?
Sounds a lot.
I usually work on 35 sq m per hour to include
vaccing, pre spraying etc.
Did just over 1200 sq m of shop late last year
and it took me best part of four 10 hour nights.
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I've done over 500 m2 in the past on my own with a dry fusion in 4-5 hours that's setting up vaccing prespray etc you need a rotary on large areas
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Well jands
You are just too slow ! Lol
us old timers know how to wand you know ! ;D
I stated how I did it in the thread cooking oil re visited ! And 35 an hour is a bit pathetic maybe when i am 70 i might slow down to that pace ! 100ft of two inch hose one Scorpion Full of very hot F90 Pre spayed very hot enzall and allowed to dwell for 45 mins, so realy the actual wanding was nearer two hours
I bet the likes of shaun ashmore or Billy russel could do it quicker than me, ive got fifteen years on them
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I have a guy near me also a NCCA member and well respected, well for his carpet cleaning knowledge ! he is charging £39 for lounge HSL
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What.. Who is that James
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Should i say ? Ever since i started he has been charging these sort of prices from what i can tell he does know his stuff is good at SEO spends a lot of time promoting his business used to give advice on here etc but charges peanuts, a real puzzle ???
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200 sq.yds (1800 sq.ft) could be done in 2 hrs easy, but depends massively on carpet and condition, and the standard your working too.
Could also take 6 hrs.
A lot of boasting going on.
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200 sq.yds (1800 sq.ft) could be done in 2 hrs easy, but depends massively on carpet and condition, and the standard your working too.
Could also take 6 hrs.
A lot of boasting going on.
I couldn't do it in 2 hours. set up,vac, agitate, extract put gear away for me, impossible. others may work quicker though.
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Well I can't get phone to ring at my prices and I'm fair I do a good job and use good chems just looked at my books and from January to today I have made £1068 all gone back into trying to get phone to ring advertising website etc this is the worst start to a year yet I'm scared I don't want to give up but think it might be the time to look for a job and keep a porty for beer money
How do you advertise mate?
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My point is no one can move faster than me, unless they are superman, therefore they must be 'doing' less.
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You didn't see me move when I found out that the tea and coffee was free on Saturday!
Shaun
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Well as i said in the previous thread, it was just HD red cord carpet ! two years old but stained with cooking oil, but the Enzall eradicated that, 4 jet glided westpack and hot F90 saw off the rest
It makes me wonder how any of you lot make any money
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Should i say ? Ever since i started he has been charging these sort of prices from what i can tell he does know his stuff is good at SEO spends a lot of time promoting his business used to give advice on here etc but charges peanuts, a real puzzle ???
http://www.carpet-cleaning-southend.co.uk/
Perhaps? ;) ;)
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Yep gotta be!
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Compared to Ian's old prices this is a vast improvement, he does know his stuff but I think his pricing has been out but that's only my opinion, he will however always help you if you ever need a hand as he is a genuine person.
Shaun
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Having seen lots of Ian's posts I would say it must be working for him or he wouldn't be doing it
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I think he was in a low population area, anyone trying to operate in these sorts of area would find it hard.
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Ian is a good lad, we have talked about prices over the years and he has tried loads of stuff to grow his business. From my point of view the prices are too low and Ian knows my view on that but if he has found a winning formula in this area by doing this and getting plenty og volume then well done the lad.
I dont know any one over the years who has worked harder on the marketing side of their business, he has had a few failures over the years but he never gives up and thats what its all about.
Pitty he does not come on here any more, used to like his banter.
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Southend is not a low population area and is the eighth biggest town in England and Westcliff where i am just down the road is very high population i have two well known guys near me Doug and Ian, Doug charges considerably more and does well. as has been mentioned Ian seems a nice guy fell out with him a little with his "negative" marketing that i thought customers may think it was me he was talking about, it wasn't but thats in the past. , the prices i just don't understand for what he is offering i think he should expect more he bangs on out being the only city and guilds carpet cleaner in the area which is good marketing so why the prices ???
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I suspect Ian is having a good laugh at the comments on here as he happily empties his pockets at night and counts his earnings...........I.m guessing around £300 per day and achieved at considerably less cost than many who claim to charge a lot more but are not busy on a regular basis so probably earn less than Ian or many others with similar charges.
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Possibly but if he is rushed off his feet surely he could double his prices do half the work make the same money and have some time off. i intend to watch the snooker this afternoon got a decent job this morning at a fair price. I am not trying to sound smug i can be a lazy git, but i do a job thoroughly and expect to be paid for it.
If he is making £300 a day that is about 8 lounges+ HSL in 8 different locations, if i did that i would pass out before i could count my £300
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What makes you think he's RUSHED OFF HIS FEET and as I've said over the years .......people who charge high prices to laze around ARE most definitely the industries cowboys / con merchants / call them what you like.
There's nothing ethical in pretending to the public or your self, that you are worth a lot more than others who treat their business as full time and build credibility.
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Just looked at your web site James and it appears you are NOT IN THE HIGH CHARGING CLUB as your site in a slightly ambiguous way says you will charge much the same as Ian.
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Robert when i am in a customers home i am professional and thorough it would be impossible for me to charge those prices because i am thorough i like to take my time to do what i consider to be the very best job for a customer and that make me a cowboy ! I am not ripping people off either i charge around £50 for a standard lounge and that is reduced the more i clean, considerably less that franchises and some of the guys on here. i don't intend turning this into a slanging match i simply suggested that Ian is worth a dam sight more than £39.50 for a lounge HSL
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Just looked at your web site James and it appears you are NOT IN THE HIGH CHARGING CLUB as your site in a slightly ambiguous way says you will charge much the same as Ian.
Never said i was, i charge considerably more than Ian though my prices do come down if i did a whole house i might do a bedroom for free, i am doing a lounge HSL and just looked on cleanersmate the last time i did it i charged £200
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A friend of mine is a self made multi millionaire.
He probably does on average, an hour a day.
He has built the company up from scratch to function whether he is there or not. He thinks I am mad to be "on the tools". Having been laid off following an operation, I have to totally agree with him. This ties in with Jamie's thread about manual labour.
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I couldn't care less what other folk are making, if Ian is happy charging the prices he charges, who are we to critisise ? I am only concearned what i make at the end of the day! Iv't been in the business for over twenty years and when i started i was very, very cheap, but that changed as soon as i became a member of the NCCA and did loads of marketing courses, These days 80% of my work is regular comercial maintenance contracts and i can see a time in the not long distant future when i dont do any domestic whatsoever !
stuart
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I couldn't care less what other folk are making, if Ian is happy charging the prices he charges, who are we to critisise ? I am only concearned what i make at the end of the day! Iv't been in the business for over twenty years and when i started i was very, very cheap, but that changed as soon as i became a member of the NCCA and did loads of marketing courses, These days 80% of my work is regular comercial maintenance contracts and i can see a time in the not long distant future when i dont do any domestic whatsoever !
stuart
You are deluding yourself if you dont think people on here care what other people earn.... ;D
It seems if you are one of the cheapies out there then you are mocked and told they wont last 5 minutes, however if they know you then you are jolly decent chap doing your best in a tough market place.......
Your right though who cares ;)
I completely agree about passive income, its the very best there is and its 24hrs seven days a week......I have just been invited to Florida to a friends 5 bed villa which he has just bought it a place called Destin... he only has an online business and does not handle any stock what so ever, he business has just been valued at 2 million....Luvly jubbly
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I my have picked it up wrong but Ian's prices are for new business so people give him a try which is a marketing ploy looking for repeat custom much the same as doing groupon
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Hillton
I very much doubt you can match what i earn !!
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I dont care ;D
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I my have picked it up wrong but Ian's prices are for new business so people give him a try which is a marketing ploy looking for repeat custom much the same as doing groupon
If thats the case and I have no idea if it is, then in a years times when they want another clean and are quoted £400 they will tell him to take a running jump..
This form of marketing does not breed loyalty in fact far from it ,it's the reverse.
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People need to concentrate on their own business and not worry about local competition,pricing is an emotive subject and should be left to the individual business owner
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I my have picked it up wrong but Ian's prices are for new business so people give him a try which is a marketing ploy looking for repeat custom much the same as doing groupon
If thats the case and I have no idea if it is, then in a years times when they want another clean and are quoted £400 they will tell him to take a running jump..
This form of marketing does not breed loyalty in fact far from it ,it's the reverse.
I agree with Hilton your finding customers that are mostly price orientated and will drop you the moment your prices go up, surely selling your higher price as value for money usually when they see what they are getting, job i did this morning a big lounge/diner and flight of stairs very nice property expensive carpet £200 took about three and a half hours cleaned for her three times now gave me a £20 as well she didn't think i was ripping her off as i did a bloody good job. there are many ways of earning a living, am i wrong to do it an easier way i have never done more than three jobs in a day and i don't want to either.
I agree we should concentrate on our own business but i didn't start the topic just contributed and all off a sudden i am a cowboy ripping people off ??? because i like the afternoon off to watch the snooker, which i am doing now, come on Judd Trump :)
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I my have picked it up wrong but Ian's prices are for new business so people give him a try which is a marketing ploy looking for repeat custom much the same as doing groupon
If thats the case and I have no idea if it is, then in a years times when they want another clean and are quoted £400 they will tell him to take a running jump..
This form of marketing does not breed loyalty in fact far from it ,it's the reverse.
I agree with Hilton your finding customers that are mostly price orientated and will drop you the moment your prices go up, surely selling your higher price as value for money usually when they see what they are getting, job i did this morning a big lounge/diner and flight of stairs very nice property expensive carpet £200 took about three and a half hours cleaned for her three times now gave me a £20 as well she didn't think i was ripping her off as i did a bloody good job. there are many ways of earning a living, am i wrong to do it an easier way i have never done more than three jobs in a day and i don't want to either.
I agree we should concentrate on our own business but i didn't start the topic just contributed and all off a sudden i am a cowboy ripping people off ??? because i like the afternoon off to watch the snooker, which i am doing now, come on Judd Trump :)
There lies your problem watching snooker ;D ;)
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I my have picked it up wrong but Ian's prices are for new business so people give him a try which is a marketing ploy looking for repeat custom much the same as doing groupon
If thats the case and I have no idea if it is, then in a years times when they want another clean and are quoted £400 they will tell him to take a running jump..
This form of marketing does not breed loyalty in fact far from it ,it's the reverse.
I agree with Hilton your finding customers that are mostly price orientated and will drop you the moment your prices go up, surely selling your higher price as value for money usually when they see what they are getting, job i did this morning a big lounge/diner and flight of stairs very nice property expensive carpet £200 took about three and a half hours cleaned for her three times now gave me a £20 as well she didn't think i was ripping her off as i did a bloody good job. there are many ways of earning a living, am i wrong to do it an easier way i have never done more than three jobs in a day and i don't want to either.
I agree we should concentrate on our own business but i didn't start the topic just contributed and all off a sudden i am a cowboy ripping people off ??? because i like the afternoon off to watch the snooker, which i am doing now, come on Judd Trump :)
There lies your problem watching snooker ;D ;)
Have you been speaking to my wife ;D
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I my have picked it up wrong but Ian's prices are for new business so people give him a try which is a marketing ploy looking for repeat custom much the same as doing groupon
If thats the case and I have no idea if it is, then in a years times when they want another clean and are quoted £400 they will tell him to take a running jump..
This form of marketing does not breed loyalty in fact far from it ,it's the reverse.
I would hate to think i was taking three and half hours to clean a lounge and a flight of stairs, even if i was getting £200.
Geoff
I agree with Hilton your finding customers that are mostly price orientated and will drop you the moment your prices go up, surely selling your higher price as value for money usually when they see what they are getting, job i did this morning a big lounge/diner and flight of stairs very nice property expensive carpet £200 took about three and a half hours cleaned for her three times now gave me a £20 as well she didn't think i was ripping her off as i did a bloody good job. there are many ways of earning a living, am i wrong to do it an easier way i have never done more than three jobs in a day and i don't want to either.
I agree we should concentrate on our own business but i didn't start the topic just contributed and all off a sudden i am a cowboy ripping people off ??? because i like the afternoon off to watch the snooker, which i am doing now, come on Judd Trump :)
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I would hate to think i was taking three and half hours to clean a lounge and a flight of stairs, even if i was getting £200.
Geoff
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Hi Guys
Yes I am considerably more expensive than Ian but I do run a TM and have many existing customers and 30 years experience.
I don't give figures but am into 4 this week and was back home by 2.30 today although I don't watch snooker ::)roll
There are many types of customers and many types of carpet cleaners, the idea that we should have uniform pricing is an odd one, we do not have uniform customers.
Cheers
Doug
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Hilltom
If you are right in what you say about marketing , then why are my Comercial clients still using me after more than ten years ?
Its very little to do with price, its more about quality and reliability
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Yeah you just confirmed what I was saying....
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You said i was one of the cheepies out there !
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I would hate to think i was taking three and half hours to clean a lounge and a flight of stairs, even if i was getting £200.
Geoff
Considering you have no idea of the size of the lounge/diner how can you judge how long you would take ! It was 3.5 hours from arriving to driving off it was over looking Essex way in Benfleet Essex and was full of expensive furniture that needed to be moved along this road are some of the biggest houses in Essex, obviously you must think all rooms are the same size to make such a silly comment, next time the subject " have you seen this price" comes up i will stay out, i dont' give a flying f... what Ian charges all i tried to get across was i don't understand it, not one person who got on the defensive bandwagon explained how he can charge £39.50 to clean a lounge HSL and make a profit, the response from some was how he is 'probably making £300 a day and laughing at us without any informative explanation about how this is at all possible. Other comments of i would hate to think i would take 3 hours to clean a lounge further add to this learned debate :'(
Was going to answer Tony Stewarts question about his website in a lot more detail, but why bother when some numbskull will probably spend the afternoon scrutinising my own site to then come back and say what the hell do you know. in case you haven't guessed i am a little p..... off i don't like being accused of ripping people off and basically having no ethics, one of the things i like about this job is having more time with the family, rather than being out working at all hours as i did previously this has nothing to do with the quality of work i provide my customers and i still work five days a week.
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Ahhhhhh James
No matter what you or anyone says on a forum it will almost always get reaction and on many occasions it will be negative, at least it might seem negative on the first reading.
I have worked in many very big houses and some tiny flats and agree it's not possible to give blanket quotes.
I got a call from a regular a few years ago who was moving house and wanted the hallway cleaned.......just the hallway, but she emphasised it was very big and I should quote on site.
The house was huge and the hallway was just over eighty metres long with a massive communal sitting area in the middle which alone was the equivelent of four average lounges.
Had I posted the time taken to complete this job and what I was paid I doubt anyone would have believed me..........unless, of course I had qualified it by giving the full sizes and any other complications I might have had to deal with.
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That's a bloody big hall Robert.
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You said i was one of the cheepies out there !
Sorry !
Where did I say that ?
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Robert Meldrum
As far as i am concerned you went too far by calling me a "con merchant" if you had done that to my face :-X
I have complete integrity in all my business dealings and do plenty of free work for my local school and charities.
I shouldn't have to justify myself to someone who makes a remark like that from behind a keyboard.
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It seems if you are one of the cheapies out there then you are mocked and told they wont last 5 minutes,(quote from Hilton)
note the word IF in the sentence stuart . I did wonder why you left the stupid comment about money afterwards
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Hilton implied that i was one of the cheapies ! And i thought if i were cheap why do i turn over a £100,000 a year I work monday to friday 8.30 till 5 and three to four nights on a normal week
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£100,000 is that all you can see why he thought you were a cheapskate, now pull your finger out and stop watching snooker ;)
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cant stand snooker
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cant stand snooker
Well stop watching it and get some work done :P :P
;D ;D
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Hilton implied that i was one of the cheapies ! And i thought if i were cheap why do i turn over a £100,000 a year I work monday to friday 8.30 till 5 and three to four nights on a normal week
I never at any time implied you were a cheapo as use put it...
Read the posts properly before you throw all toys out of the pram...
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Hi Guys
If your interested my latest project is on G+
https://plus.google.com/u/0/101557752785793986239/posts
https://plus.google.com/b/102301626571280659132/102301626571280659132/posts?cfem=1
https://plus.google.com/b/102301626571280659132/communities/103017156208142905113?cfem=1
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sorry i am also on
https://twitter.com/Cleaning_Buzz
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Ian-Harper-Carpet-Cleaning/445015588917121
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Good man Ian.
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Hilto
As use put it ? what sort of grammer is that ?
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Stuart you really should learn to spell before you start slagging people about grammar . re-read all your posts on this thread for a start ;D
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Dan
You need to mind your own business ,mate
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Robert Meldrum
As far as i am concerned you went too far by calling me a "con merchant" if you had done that to my face :-X
I have complete integrity in all my business dealings and do plenty of free work for my local school and charities.
I shouldn't have to justify myself to someone who makes a remark like that from behind a keyboard.
What made you think I was referring to you Jimbo. It was a GENERAL STATEMENT, but if the cap fits! Incidentally, what if I was in front of you, maybe chatting in a pub. Was that a little kiss you were offering ?
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do I really .. yeah right
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Hi Ian, good to see you are still about.
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Hilto
As use put it ? what sort of grammer is that ?
That's what happens when you use a mobile,,,, and when I say YOU I am talking in general terms....I know you have trouble understanding that..
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Robert
You know full well you were referring to me. I don't know why you bother using the forum you have no interest in adding to it by backing up any of your statements with an explanation, haven't you worked out yet that is how a forum works, it's called an exchange of knowledge.
You just throw comments back that are meaningless i.e" how do you know Ians not earning £300 a day and laughing" the thing is, we don't know do we. If you choose to take an opposing stance, that's great maybe something can be learnt, your unable to explain your comment so you go on the attack like a playground bully even trying unsuccessfully to catch me out by snooping on my website rather than back your statement up with an explanation. At no point have i said anything derogatory about Ian i actually refused to name him if you bother to read the posts, i also praised him as a competent professional but for some unknown reason you take it upon yourself to attack me personally because i have the audacity to ask how he can charge £39.50 for cleaning a lounge HSL, what are you his mum.
PS Good luck to Ian, if it works don't change it. just curious as to how. silly me i thought i may find out on a forum.
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Hilton
This Forum is for carpet cleaners mate! you never seem to be off it, so you cant be cleaning many carpets if at all
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I don't clean any....
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I try not to either ;D ;D ;D
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I come on to wind up the easily upset ;D ;D ; ;D but also to champion the silent majority.............I think !
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I come on to wind up the easily upset ;D ;D ; ;D but also to champion the silent majority.............I think !
That makes you an all round good guy then Robert ;D ;D ;D
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and some come on to throw toys and to brag about how much they earn a year ;D
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I come on to wind up the easily upset ;D ;D ; ;D but also to champion the silent majority.............I think !
That makes you an all round good guy then Robert ;D ;D ;D
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Dear me, all this bragging. Stuart turning over 100k ayear and employing 2 staff is going to leave you...what about 30% net?
Its hardly going to worry the people on the Sunday Times Top 100 richlist is it?
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Joe
I wasn't bragging, but somone said earlier in this post that i was a cheapy!! Or thats what it sounded like to me ! And if I was a Cheap carpet cleaner I think I would struggle to turn over what I do, More Like 72% Nett
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In my experience it is always a good idea to take any figures posted on here with a pinch of salt as they tend to get exaggerated in the name of 'bragging rights.' ;)
Simon
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Joe
I wasn't bragging, but somone said earlier in this post that i was a cheapy!! Or thats what it sounded like to me ! And if I was a Cheap carpet cleaner I think I would struggle to turn over what I do, More Like 72% Nett
It was me, who you said accused you of being a cheapy and has been pointed ad nauseum you got it wrong just admit it apologise and move on like a grown up..
By the way £72k net profit is very good but if you have two people working for, which I think has been said, then they must be on or below minimum wage, surely with that kind of profit you could at least give them a living wage you tight sod.
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Hilton
In normal accounting terms a net profit is arrived at AFTER costs are deducted. As wages are a cost they would have been deducted before arriving at the £72 k figure.
So the £72 k may be a lot more attractive than first thought.
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I think that was Hilton's point.
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I think that was Hilton's point.
;D
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Where did that fool go?? Bit sensitive ;D
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I catch fishes and butterflies in my net never caught sand though! like money it just slips through my fingers, I'm born to be poor.
Shaun
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No Shaun.....
the being poor bit only came after marriage and children ;D ;D ;D
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That is so true, I was born to be poor and married to be poorer.
Shaun