Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Paul Coleman on February 21, 2006, 06:00:31 pm
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Well that's another customer gone today. I got the cheque through the post with a brief note saying they don't want their windows cleaned any more. It may be coincidence but there does seem to be a spate of it since I started WFPing. Before WFP, there would be an occasional cancellation. Since WFP, there have been 5 in three months - though I can only be certain two of them were due to my work with WFP. One said she couldn't afford me (and it was way underpriced anyway so no loss), two said my work was spotty (though one of them is still a customer as I went around to resolve it) and one today with no reason (not that they need one). Did anyone else find that there was a spate of cancellations when they first started on WFP? I did expect a few anyway as a lot of people dislike change but it's not always been the ones I expected.
To balance this up a bit, I have acquired a bit of work that I got because of WFP so it's not all bad.
Also, I have taken it upon myself to cancel a few jobs as difficult access is more of a burden with WFP as there is more equipment to lug around. Also, a few of them kept messing me around for payment so they are now history.
Ah well. Only 262 customers left now. Ho hum :)
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Shiner, doing tops only, I've lost one 'due to WFP' in five months and I dropped another.
The first one said she thought my water would damage her wooden window frames and the second only started complaining when the bloke of the house lost his job; couldn't get another; so his missis had to go out to work.
At first they complained that their windows weren't cleaned, so I called back the next day (Saturday) with my ladders and checked them. They were imaculate and the only marks on them were on the inside.
This month they complained to Wor Lass that the water takes too long to dry on the windows!
Dropped.
I sometimes brag that all my customers are 'nice', or at least neutral towards me/us.
And that's how I like it. It's not a good feeling turning up to clean someone's house thinking that they don't want you; so we don't.
Window cleaning should be stress(ish) free!
But about now the Christmas debt has taken hold and some of your customers will be feeling the pinch.
Some people, instead of being honest and saying, 'sorry mate, we can't afford you', will critisize your work. But never let them off lightly. Check it carefully. Promise to put it right (if it's wrong). Tell them you're only human and will ensure it's done correct next time. Make them squirm a bit.
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I have lost a couple this week, the first for quite some time, no reasons given and I don't bother to ask. Also lost a local nightclub and bowling alley, 100 quid a month, they told me they were doing it themselves - since found out that the boss thinks it doesn't take long enough, although he only sees me do the insides as I always did the outsides early morning, romour has it they have found someone to do it for 30 pounds!
I don't mind but I wish they had the balls to tell me the truth, and before I had done the outsides and returned later to do the insides - that really made my blod boil - but revenge is a dish best served cold.
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Evening Everyone,
I have started to tell my new customers, that they must clean the insides of their windows after my first visit, otherwise people may think I have done a bad job. Believe it or not, this is actually working!!!! I recently started a large 5 bedroom house, all Georgian windows. When I went back on the second clean, I politely told her, if she did not clean the insides of her windows, I would not be coming back!!!!! And she did....
Many Thanks
Andrew
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shinner, i lost about 10% when i swiched but now targeting houses with dormers etc that were difficalt or impossible 2 get to.
higher priced than the ones i lost. i no its gutting 2 loose customers youve had 4 years, but the wives think its the best thing since sliced bread having them all cleaned.
another good point to remember is only another wfp can take this work, not some cheap cowboy starting up or some one on bennifits then giving up cause its hard work.
wfp does have a few downers 2 it, but it opens up a lot more openings.
macc. ;D
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When we started using wfp I expected to lose a few customers. We lost about 30 out of 368 in two months which was not so serious. During that time normally I would have expected to loose one or two.
What I didn't expect though was the number of complaints and the having to return and do it again. With trad method a complaint was so rare. Maybe one or two a year. with trad methods we only ever went back and done a job twice in 5 years.
One real big problem being on the coast is seagull sh*t. Often wfp does not remove it all. I don't know how the manufacturers say it does. It doesn't. I have seen the proof to many times.
Lately we've done a job in the morning and 6 hours later the windows are still wet. If you put yourself in the postition of the customer who is used to looking out of dry clean windows as soon as the w/c is gone but then the windows stay wet for hours?
Last month we got a new contract and it included 226 14" by 36" paines of glass and we priced that part of the job for wfp. The whole outsides of the building had been painted about 4 months before and the glass had lots of places where the rain water had leached out the paint onto a lot of the glass. When I rubbed it with a cloth it came off quite easily.
WFP didn't even touch it so we had to do all 226 paines with a mop and squeegie. Yesterday the same job was due again so we done the job with wfp thinking that as the first clean had got the glass up to standard......
Today we went back and done all 226 paines again with a mop and sqeegie.
WFP does have some seriously good benifits and for some jobs it is incredible but for others, it a pain in the rear.
If I could go back in time I would now loose all the jobs over 1st floor high and just used trad methods. WFP is a lot of hassle, a lot of spotty windows and complaints and I don't know how many on this forum get perfect results everytime. We've tried it every which way and done this and done that but for a lot of windows, it doesn't cut the ice so to speak.
We've also picked up quite a bit of work (that we've then done trad) that had been done by various wfp companies because the customers are fed up with the results. We got one real good job 3 weeks back. The windows had been done earlier that day with wfp and from the outside they looked ok but from the inside they were a mess and being right next to the sea, there were outlines from seagull sh*t all over the glass.
I get phones calls everyday and they used to be a either a request to do a job or a request for a quote. I now dread the 'complaint' calls. The 'you did my windows yesterday.... blah blah ... bad job done....' and so on. I don't like answering the mobile now is case it's a complaint.
All in all wfp does have many plus sides but along with that comes a lot of hassle and I've looked at jobs done by other wfp's and I'm yet to see the 'perfect' job that so many say they get.
Also in terms of organising a busy schedule each day, dealing with complaints and some times having to go back to a job costs a lot of time and money.
Maybe it's the levels of sea salt on the glass around here? I wish someone would explaint it.
Cheers
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marc, down to £30, how long will he turn up for, must be on HMS pay role
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shinner, i lost about 10% when i swiched but now targeting houses with dormers etc that were difficalt or impossible 2 get to.
higher priced than the ones i lost. i no its gutting 2 loose customers youve had 4 years, but the wives think its the best thing since sliced bread having them all cleaned.
another good point to remember is only another wfp can take this work, not some cheap cowboy starting up or some one on bennifits then giving up cause its hard work.
wfp does have a few downers 2 it, but it opens up a lot more openings.
macc. ;D
I'm just taking the view now that any jobs I lose are making room for new, better priced work.
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Ross
I have experenced the exact opposite, I have been cleaning using a squeegee for over 21yrs and if there is a mark or spot belive me it comes off. I have been using wfp for two and a half years, In that time I have not lost one single customer and only had one complaint. That was not about the clean but the amount of water on his bear wood.
Yes you get stubon bird muck but a soak do another window come back hay prestow.
All I can say is perhaps its the area you live, but I have had loads of customers say what a better job it does. But I do have plenty of water so perhaps that helps.
I would never go back to total squeegee work ever.
Roy :)
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I got home from work tonight. Two cancellation letters with 2 cheques in.
One account was £13.50 every 2 months, I had put his price up by £3.00, from £10.50. but it was still underpriced, Had not told him it was going up so its my own fault, No reason given just dont call again.
The other cancellation was a Farmer who I have known for a long time, they said they were cutting back so my services were not required. I wish he had told me to my face when I cleaned them last week instead of a little note.
Did some collecting last night, A £15.00 customer told me not to call again as the wife had made other arrangments.
Now I dont know if these cancellations are because they dont like wfp or because my prices went up 20% at the start of the year when I switched to wfp. But I'm not worried, After tea i went through my round book, I made a List of customers I have lost and a list of New customers gained from Oct 05, Thats when I started to inform my customers I was moving from Trad to wfp cleaning with prices going up across the board by 20% at the start of 2006.
So the List reads 15 customers lost, Including Deaths, House moveing, Wfp haters, Tight wads. A total of £144.00 lost at my new prices.
Ummmmmmmmmmmmmm
32 New customers at very good rates totalling £387.00.
So I am £243.00 better off plus my round is paying me 20% more then last year.
I want to canvass in the spring Dormar estates, w/cleaners normally give these a wide berth because they are awkward.
On a positive note, this is my 8th week wfp or 36th day, i'm getting more effeccient but way off the speed I know I can get up to with wfp. Butt I set a new record for a days takeings on Domestic work that shatterd anything I had done Trad, in fact I would get no were near this figure Trad.
£350.00
Nel.
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When we started using wfp I expected to lose a few customers. We lost about 30 out of 368 in two months which was not so serious. During that time normally I would have expected to loose one or two.
What I didn't expect though was the number of complaints and the having to return and do it again. With trad method a complaint was so rare. Maybe one or two a year. with trad methods we only ever went back and done a job twice in 5 years.
One real big problem being on the coast is seagull sh*t. Often wfp does not remove it all. I don't know how the manufacturers say it does. It doesn't. I have seen the proof to many times.
Lately we've done a job in the morning and 6 hours later the windows are still wet. If you put yourself in the postition of the customer who is used to looking out of dry clean windows as soon as the w/c is gone but then the windows stay wet for hours?
Last month we got a new contract and it included 226 14" by 36" paines of glass and we priced that part of the job for wfp. The whole outsides of the building had been painted about 4 months before and the glass had lots of places where the rain water had leached out the paint onto a lot of the glass. When I rubbed it with a cloth it came off quite easily.
WFP didn't even touch it so we had to do all 226 paines with a mop and squeegie. Yesterday the same job was due again so we done the job with wfp thinking that as the first clean had got the glass up to standard......
Today we went back and done all 226 paines again with a mop and sqeegie.
WFP does have some seriously good benifits and for some jobs it is incredible but for others, it a pain in the rear.
If I could go back in time I would now loose all the jobs over 1st floor high and just used trad methods. WFP is a lot of hassle, a lot of spotty windows and complaints and I don't know how many on this forum get perfect results everytime. We've tried it every which way and done this and done that but for a lot of windows, it doesn't cut the ice so to speak.
We've also picked up quite a bit of work (that we've then done trad) that had been done by various wfp companies because the customers are fed up with the results. We got one real good job 3 weeks back. The windows had been done earlier that day with wfp and from the outside they looked ok but from the inside they were a mess and being right next to the sea, there were outlines from seagull sh*t all over the glass.
I get phones calls everyday and they used to be a either a request to do a job or a request for a quote. I now dread the 'complaint' calls. The 'you did my windows yesterday.... blah blah ... bad job done....' and so on. I don't like answering the mobile now is case it's a complaint.
All in all wfp does have many plus sides but along with that comes a lot of hassle and I've looked at jobs done by other wfp's and I'm yet to see the 'perfect' job that so many say they get.
Also in terms of organising a busy schedule each day, dealing with complaints and some times having to go back to a job costs a lot of time and money.
Maybe it's the levels of sea salt on the glass around here? I wish someone would explaint it.
Cheers
As you say, I'm wondering if it's the salty air around your way Ross. It sounds like you've had a lot more problems than I have (though maybe I've yet to hear all mine yet).
A lot of the work I do comes up really well but I'm further inland than you (Gatwick).
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When we started using wfp I expected to lose a few customers. We lost about 30 out of 368 in two months which was not so serious. .....
Maybe it's the levels of sea salt on the glass around here? I wish someone would explaint it.
Cheers
Ross,
That's a lot to lose, 30 out of 368. We have around 350 customers, but I know most of my accounts are far smaller than yours. I'm the 'terraced-house king'.
But my point is we have a similar number of customers who can scrutinise our work.
I know there's three of you in your operation. Could this have any effect on your WFP working methods?
I know when I'm working with Wor Lass, she doesn't like hanging about, and sometimes I'll work quicker and use less water than I really should, just so that she can get started - trad; especially when it's cold.
So working as a three-some with some WFP and some 'trad' could pose some problems.
Do you think that this could be some of your problem?
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Hi Tosh
Although there's 3 of us we don't always work together. We've had to re organised ourselves because 3 workers and wfp doesn't mix so I don't think it's that.
Quiet often one does the wfp work and the other 2 do the trad work elsewhere. It's mix and match thing which has improoved efficieny no end because 2 jobs are being done at the same time.
On the job we did yesterday we used roughly 250 ltrs to make sure a good job was done. When the windows were dry (some 4 hours later) - they were a mess. Spotty doesn't begin to describe it. We had scrubbed them for ages and then carefully rinsed avoiding above the tops. I was knackered.
We've tried 5 different brush heads. We've replaced every bit of our RO system. I even bought a second tds meter in case the first one bought was faulty. We bought replacement barrels in case for any reason they old ones were contaminated and we still get some awfull results.
We do get a lot of good results but that's all I'd call them. I've yet to see a spotless result.
Maybe it's as The Shiner says - salt from the sea. The vast majority of our work is along the coast. With a mop and squeegie you learn over a few years how to do things so as all the salt is cleaned off. For instance on badly salted windows if you go over a bit you've already squeegied - 10 minutes later you'll see loads of white circles on the glass. Or with cloths. You can't just dry out a cloth and use it again. All you'll get is smears.
Maybe it's like that with wfp in some way.
The other problem is like yesterday. Today we had to redo yesterdays work. That meant I had to cancel all todays jobs which I had previously phoned and then rearrange them for tommorrow. Some customers weren't so happy but most were ok. Tomorrows work has now been rearranged for Monday as we've commmercial work Thurs and Fri. That means the planned routes and organisation for next weeks work has to all be redone yet again. On top of that, we now have too much work for Tuesday so we'll have to pay another window cleaner for the day.
It's that aspect of wfp problems that sends me nuts. There's not only the lost time which is lost money, but there's the loss of efficiency which also costs. Then there is my time reorganising it. And the worst bit, it's all hassle on top of an already busy schedule.
With a mop and squeegie it worked everytime without fail. Less money earnt but simple.
As far as lost customers directly attributal to wfp over the last 9 months - 47 of them.
The work gained though for arkward jobs and others more suited to wfp - 17 but those 17 are worth one and a half times as much as the 47 lost. So it's not all bad.
Cheers
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Well done Ross again. Not afraid to be honest after spending a lot of money.
Most around here are too proud to admit it's faults.
Wfp is the best thing that's ever happened to me.
Since some people around here have started using it I've picked up probably 3 times as much work as usual including commercial. :)
It's the same question every time:
"Do you clean windows properly with a "wiper" rather than this hose thing?"
"I'm fed up with the mess my w/c leaves now, the windows just aren't cleaned properly"
Every time I chuckle and say "I know, I'll be there in the morning"
As such, they're always very happy to have me instead, and I get a cheerful new customer.
Thing is, I've turned down many new jobs because they're wfp'd by w/c'ers I know.
It's getting harder to say no, as it's their own fault..... :-\
Rog.
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I'm with Roy - not a single customer lost! (I almost wish there were - then I could replace them with better paying!)
Ross - if those frames are leaching out paint then it's down to shoddy workmanship by the painters/poor frames - don't take on the guilt trip mate - it's the painters that should be coming back and worrying - not you!
Q. Is it worth doing trad? (Safety Risk and Financial) If so - do it - if not tell customer it ain't your fault and goodbye!
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Same here as above,not lost any,all i get is nice clean windows and frames,must be my brushes ;D,Gaz
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Yup, I have to agree with Earl (Gaz), my patio has never been so clean :-[
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I have just been looking through my lists again.
I have lost 4 customers who did not want them cleaned Wfp. They all said I could do them Trad but they were underpriced or risky ladder work so I said its Wfp or look for a new W/C. Loseing the rest is mainly to do with the price increase.
The 4 lost cos of Wfp adds up to whopping £31.00 a month.
Out of the 32 customers I have gained, ( just added another to the list ) 10 of those are a direct result of going Wfp, If I had not gone wfp I would of not taken them on cos of too much ladder risk or they are leaded or windows to high.
The total price of the 10 new customers is £139.00 a month.
So far the change as been worth it. If I was haveing the problems Ross is haveing I would have to think twice.
For me Bird poo as not been to big a problem. I know how to look at glass and see poo . You do get some poo, ( which is a real stinker to get off the glass ) from the local seagull dropout brigade who have had an heavy session allnight glue sniffing. That sticks like glue to the window. I have spent 5 mins with some poo getting it off.
If its salty rinse and rinse, clean and rinse, Try Gaz brushs.
Nel.
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Sorry, if windows are cleaner using wfp then that says something about traditional skills and technique used before.
I've cleaned (and still do) patio doors with gg4, a mop and squeegie and they come up immaculate. No marks, no smears, no bird doos, no spots and just absolutely gleaming.
To say that wfp does a better job is maybe stretching things.
I admit the frames come up much much better. And there's the safety aspect also.
Hi Malc, the leaching wasn't from the frames, it was from the walls above and from the new paint above which when it rained ran a residue down over the glass. WFP did not touch it or remove it at all but a mop and squeegie did.
Also, the job in question is worth a bomb every month and those window are the only one that can be done wfp. We do the whole building.
The picture below probably explains things a bit better. The glass you can see is about a quarter of the glass we done yesterday and today both sides and the agents demand a spotless quality job. It's the paint leaching into the rain and runningdown from above that is the problem.
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hi guys,
I'm planning to change to wfp, but after some posts claiming wfp doesn't sometimes do the job properly, i'm thinking to do all tops and hard to reach areas with wfp and bottom ones trad. ?!
Does anybody practice this method? anyway we can always make sure windows are left spotless at the bottom as customers usually check those ones. ???
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Hi Neil
With the bird poo problem - how do you look 2 or 3 floor up with a sometimes bright blue sky shinning in your eyes, or worse, the sun, and see an outline of bird poo?
I'd love someone to explain this because I can't see it.
We done a large Victorian house last week and the windows looked good from ground level. I asked the lady if I could check from the inside and the job was ok. I wouldn't say it was gleaming and spotless but it was passable. On 3 of the upstairs windows I could see those outlines of bird doos. (She wasn't worried about that in the slighest as the job couldn't be done trad style anyway)
From the ground those marks were invisible and that was with 3 sets of eyes trying to see them. what do you do? Use all your water on one house just in case there is any bird whatsits?
Aslo, it's often not the lost customer that is my problem, as that will happen, it's the complaints and the going back to a job.
If you work alone then maybe that is not so serious but I have to keep 3 people working (and sometimes 4 or 5 or more) and working profitably, then the one job that needs doing again can cost the days profits or a large part of but whatever, it costs money which would not have been an expense with trad methods.
I bought an RO sytem based on what is it claimed to do. Sometimes it does not do the job I paid money out for.
What I'm saying about wfp is it's not all it's cracked up to be for some jobs and it does not remove a lot of marks from windows and to say there will never being spotting from contaiminants from the frames or walls, especially on the ground floor, is simply not true. If water runs down a wall from above and down the glass below it will have contaminants in it? It must have. De ionised water attracts dirt, as is often posted, so if pure water is left running down the wall onto glass below it will have picked up contanination?
All wfp users have finished a job and the water is still dripping down from above. So why doesn't that water leave any marks or spots? It's contaminated from running down the brick work? Surely?
Or am I missing something?
Hi farkam
If you work alone then by the time you've done the tops wfp most of the water running down from above will have stopped. Then do the bottoms trad style. On your own - it's a quick and easy way to work. I'd go for it.
Hi Gaz - I want to try out one of your brushes. You've had good feedback so I'm interested.
Cheers all for your replies.
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Reading your posts today, Ross, I would advise you to give up WFP and go back to trad work.
Sounds like you had less aggro that way.
Why bother?
So, some jobs are making you more money. But reads like it isn't worth all the extra after hours work, complaints, returns, re-scheduling.
Remember K I S S
But then again, there is that ladder risk.....
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Rosskesava
I have for the last couple of month been putting some gg3 into my pure water, this I have found has helped get a better clean on some windows which use to be hard to clean.
I have also found that on some really difficult windows I wfp clean them but I then blade them dry, after about 3 or 4 cleans you will find it harder to blade but also there is no need to anyway.
As for the bird poo problem the gg3 I have found helps.
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Hi pj
It's the path we are on. Now for some work and to get the jobs done, we need to use wfp. It when we need to do the job again that I go nuts.
Keep it simple and stupid is what I would have been better to have done a while back. It's to late now as I feel obliged to those I've worked with for 5 years.
Hi williamx
I will try gg3 (or gg4 - what's the difference). How much do you add per 5 gallons or 25ltrs?
Blading them dry is what we done often. I do have to admit the best results with wfp are when we do that. The glass comes up absolutely 100% incredible.
What we've found is that if you leave the glass for a short while so as all the drips have finished doing there dripping, then the results are stunning.
The other thing with blading wfp cleaned windows is that you can blade them when the glass is all but dry. With trad methods if you done that, you'd get smears but with wfp - spotless.
Cheers
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Hi pj
Hi williamx
I will try gg3 (or gg4 - what's the difference). How much do you add per 5 gallons or 25ltrs?
Blading them dry is what we done often. I do have to admit the best results with wfp are when we do that. The glass comes up absolutely 100% incredible.
What we've found is that if you leave the glass for a short while so as all the drips have finished doing there dripping, then the results are stunning.
The other thing with blading wfp cleaned windows is that you can blade them when the glass is all but dry. With trad methods if you done that, you'd get smears but with wfp - spotless.
Cheers
The difference between gg3 and gg4 is that gg3 is for soft water areas and gg4 for hard water areas, as you will be using pure water this then make you a soft water user.
You will have to experiment with the dosage but I have found that 4ml of gg3 to 600 litres of pure water is fine, you will need to check your tds as they do increase with the amount of gg3 you put in, but you can go up to a tds reading of 10 without any harmful effects.
I have also had another thought, because you work on the coast with a very high salt/air content what you could be doing, is when you clean the windows, your brush head become contaminated with the sea salt, and you kept on infecting the glass with it, if this is the case you will need to clean the frames and glass with one brush and then rinse and polish off the glass with a brush head that has a 000 tds reading.
I not sure if this is the case but I do know that you can get a perfect clean, time after time with wfp, I have had problem windows but I have so far I have found solutions to them.
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I have also had another thought, because you work on the coast with a very high salt/air content what you could be doing, is when you clean the windows, your brush head become contaminated with the sea salt, and you kept on infecting the glass with it, if this is the case you will need to clean the frames and glass with one brush and then rinse and polish off the glass with a brush head that has a 000 tds reading.
That is a real worth while thought?
With mop and squeegie, after a few real salty windows, the salt gets on the mop, then you rinse it in the bucket, and then carry on. After a while, you end up cleaning salt off the windows with a salt contaminated mop.....
Some days I can taste it my mouth especially during autumn/winter/spring when the wind comes from the S or SW which is most of the time.
Thanks for that.
That has got me thinking. Problem is that I don't have a record of how near to the coast or how far from it are the problems we have but the windows we done yesterday and today is less then 100yds.
Cheers
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Ive not lost one yet, changed another 25 over to wfp last week didnt even get a complaint. When the customer sees you cleanng with the wfp methord they seem to come out all smiles and say " thats a fancy piece of equipment" ;)
They think they are getting an extra service free 8)
What puts them off wfp is windows being left wet andwater all down the walls, come summer it wont be as bad. When you explain all aspects of this methord they seem to come round :D
Spotting - We all seem to be telling the customer there maybe spots, so this seems to make them go and look for them. What i have started doing is telling them the windows will dry perfect and if there is any marks its down to me using the equipment as i am just still learning, like when i started with a squeegy. I tell them just to bear with me a couple of times 8)
If you target 3 storey work and dormas and areas where they cant get a window cleaner they dont bat an eyelid :)
But at the end of the day if you do a perfect job with wfp or squeegy you will get your moaners ::)
Brett
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Ive not lost one yet, changed another 25 over to wfp last week didnt even get a complaint. When the customer sees you cleanng with the wfp methord they seem to come out all smiles and say " thats a fancy piece of equipment" ;)
They think they are getting an extra service free 8)
What puts them off wfp is windows being left wet andwater all down the walls, come summer it wont be as bad. When you explain all aspects of this methord they seem to come round :D
Spotting - We all seem to be telling the customer there maybe spots, so this seems to make them go and look for them. What i have started doing is telling them the windows will dry perfect and if there is any marks its down to me using the equipment as i am just still learning, like when i started with a squeegy. I tell them just to bear with me a couple of times 8)
If you target 3 storey work and dormas and areas where they cant get a window cleaner they dont bat an eyelid :)
But at the end of the day if you do a perfect job with wfp or squeegy you will get your moaners ::)
Brett
It's so easy to focus on the negative though isn't it Brett. Let's face it, on my round maybe 7 or 8 people have had a moan and 250+ haven't ;D . That's a 3% moan rate. Not all have cancelled. Not all have moaned about quality of work but other side issues instead.
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Hi Shinner
youre right wether your wfp or trad if you loose a customer wether it be only 6 quid you always feel gutted, its not so much the money but you take it personally about the quality of your work. When you know full well youve done a good job and its just the customer having a moan for the sake of it. With wfp i will be one of the first to say it is very hard after 15yrs trad and there is a learning curve, you only want the customers that are willing to pay a good price and be patient with you while you get the wfp technique right.
There the ones worth doing a good job for
:)
Brett
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This will make you smile, I clean a customer with WFP the other month, after i had finished he cancelled saying it was just as easy for him to do it with his hose in the garden. Naturally I explained the difference but he was convinced he was right. Anyway, yesterday i cleaned his neighbour and sure enough he had cleaned his windows with a hose from him oputside tap, they were dreadful !!!! I laugh so much I almost fell over, well just as I was finishing he came out and asked if I could give his windows a clean, to which i told him use your hosepipe, its just the same!!! How smug did I feel. I will bring him back on but only after I have milked his pathetic apology a bit more. He even rang my number to leave a message asking me to come back, god i love my job !!
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As I've said on other threads, I've had very few problems to date with WFP, it's a continuous learning curve, every job has to be assessed for suitability.
Ross's circumstances are fairly unique, though there are sure to be others in coastal towns with similar problems.
The salt air is very obviously a big problem for him; some time ago on the forum there was another window cleaner who had been using WFP almost since it's inception in this country.
He was adamant that the only way you could ensure a top job time after time was to use separate brushes for frames and glass.
Justin Ruggles for instances always insists on having a fresh bucket of pure water and (I think I am right in saying) adding a little GG3 into the water and then regularly cleaning out his brush head throughout the day in this pure water.
The Ionics brushes are single filament, though there are a lot of filaments making them quite dense, nevertheless the single filament aspect will allow them to rid themselves of contaminants far easier than the brushes with 'flocked' bristles such as the....er...the name of them escapes me for the moment :-\
The Salmon brush is also single filament, and not so dense as the Ionics brush, and in all probability is the brush most likely to remain uncontaminated for the longest period of time.
In my own personal opinion (please note the 'personal') contaminated brushes are responsible for leaving windows in a poor condition, or rather, not a tip top condition I should say.
The other day I had to clean a couple of shops on the inside, they only have the insides done every 6 to 8 weeks or so.
Outsides WFP as normal, and I spent that little bit extra care on doing the outsides, obviously I wanted to be sure they were in a tip top condition being as I was going to be cleaning the insides of them a little later in the morning.
That being said, on both of these shops I had to re-do the outsides afterwards, and it vexed me more than a little to have to do so!!
These are also shop fronts that really do come up absolutely mint usually, but not this time >:(
At the first opportunity I went home and cleaned out the brush head thoroughly, to look at the bristles looked spotlessly clean, but for us inland WFP'ers I think that grease, albeit in very minute concentrations gradully builds up on the bristles of the brush.
Pure water will not disolve grease, that takes detergent.
This 'grease' I believe can slowly be picked up through a varietly of ways, greasy fingerprints on windows, someone has thrown a chip onto a window or maybe the entire takeaway :o
Some woman his kissed the window (oh that does annoy me too >:( a lipstick mark is a paiin to get off!)
Other things on the glass that cannot be dissolved by water alone may gradually build up.
Then as we clean our windows with our apparently clean brushes, friction from the bristles on the glass leave behind trace elements of the contaminants on them, drying out and then leaving glass in a not than spotless state.
Anyway; after I had gone home and cleaned out my brush, the rest of the cleans that day were checked very thoroughly indeed and lo and behold, they were gleaming.
As William has said, Ross may well benefit from using 2 brushes and then washing and rinsing them in pure water (with some detergant in them, GG3 etc) several times a day.
Done regularly in a bucket it only takes a moment or two to keep them clean.
That big job in question though is never goingto be ableto be done with WFP. if the paint is coming off the walls then you're stuffed dude :-\
At least done trad, when you have finished you know it is spot on, it might lash with rain and ruin your hard work within a day or two, but at least you'll have the piece of mind that you've done the job properly.
The owners of the building should be told what the problem is though, that is something that should not be happening, something is definitely substandard there ???
Squeaks as usual jumps on anything that suggests that WFP is crap, Ross is always truthful and objective, but his circumstances are pretty extreme, even trad work has to be adapted to suit the particular conditions of his location.
Maybe a hot water system would be better for coastal areas?
I will agree with him about Seagul crap though, that stuff is much harder to get off than other types of bird poo.
The odd outline on anything above 1st floor windows though is acceptable so far as I am concerned.
Ground floor and first floor poo is easy to spot and rectify, the higher you go, the tougher it gets.
But due to H & S the customer is just going to have to put up with minor errors I'm afraid :-\
Ian
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I would reccommend anyone who is having problems with wfp to go on the bwca wfp course you just might learn where you are going wrong.
It may seem expensive £95 plus a day or 2 off work and the travelling expense.
But you will soon earn back this outlay because you will learn how to overcome problem windows etc allowing you to work quicker and more confidently.
I must say i work by the sea and salt and seagull mess is the bane of my life,as long as you scrub and rinse using copious amounts of water you will not get any problems.
It only takes about 1 min of soaking to remove even the most stubborn seagull mess.
I must stress that if you are not using a monofilament brush head you will be putting dirt back onto the window every time you put the brush on the window.
I never lift to rinse anymore.Sometimes i rinse side to side at the top of the frame .Or rinse using a squeegie motion down the frame without lifting,or simply dont rinse at all if i have scrubbed the glass for longer than usual.
I have not had one complaint as regards to the quality of my work.
Dave
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All this debate on the effectiveness of wfp systems is an absolute joy to read.
I am currently domestic trad w/c but would love to invest in one of these systems to expand my round, possibly involving some commercial work.
The amount of helpful information shared between fellow w/c's is extraordinary. I doubt there's another industry where tricks of the trade (so to speak) would be shared without batting an eyelid or parting with a few hard earned pennies.
Anyway, i think after all this debate and the general opinion of those who have gone before me, i will soon be the proud owner of my very own system.
However, i am still having trouble in deciding what system to opt for. So i feel that a bit more research into various products is still needed.
My main reason for placing a post onto this topic was that bird poo and spider web remains were my main cause for doubt in investing my hard earned cash into something that might possibly not do as good a job as trad cleaning methods. But it does appear that providing the system is being used in the correct manner the end results seem to be just as effective.
I do have one question for all you wfp ers out there though. Has anybody bought themselves a system which they thought was a complete and utter pile of s**te and a waste of money. Be honest :)
Sunshine
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Has anybody bought themselves a system which they thought was a complete and utter pile of s**te and a waste of money. Be honest :)
Sunshine
Yes, I bought - second hand - a 50 litre system with a small battery and a 60 psi pump.
There wasn't anywhere to mount a hose and it jetted the water out at around 7 litres per minute.
The system looks similar to others I've seen, but I suspect is 'home made'. It's very similar to a Peter Fogwill trolley; only not as good.
The guy who originally purchased the 50 litre system paid £1200, but this did include two Ionic poles and brushes and a 200 gallon RO/DI.
I've fiddled around with the 50 litre system, and adapted it to take extra-hose, but I prefer my Shurflo back pack. It's simple but extremely effective.
If anyone wants to buy my 50 litre system; e-mail me; collection only though. I doubt I could get it through the post!
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Hi Neil
With the bird poo problem - how do you look 2 or 3 floor up with a sometimes bright blue sky shinning in your eyes, or worse, the sun, and see an outline of bird poo?
I'd love someone to explain this because I can't see it.
From the ground those marks were invisible and that was with 3 sets of eyes trying to see them. what do you do? Use all your water on one house just in case there is any bird whatsits?
If you really are concerned - use a pair of binoculars. I have really done this in the past but don't feel the need now - one year on from starting wfp.
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Hi Neil
With the bird poo problem - how do you look 2 or 3 floor up with a sometimes bright blue sky shinning in your eyes, or worse, the sun, and see an outline of bird poo?
I'd love someone to explain this because I can't see it.
From the ground those marks were invisible and that was with 3 sets of eyes trying to see them. what do you do? Use all your water on one house just in case there is any bird whatsits?
If you really are concerned - use a pair of binoculars. I have really done this in the past but don't feel the need now - one year on from starting wfp.
Maybe this thread should be called "How to get yourself arrested by staring up at peoples bedroom windows with binoculars"
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I too live in a coastal area, most of my work being in the Llandudno area. I have lost work because of WFP but on only one occasion was it down to dirty glass, and that was on my first day. I do mostly tops only and the bottoms trad.
Now I do one job, "The Mulberry" on Conwy marina every fortnight, inside and out.
The results on the outside are perfect.
I do my own house about every 3 months. I have seen some spotting when doing this. The thing is, I am not getting any complaints from customers. Well I did have one, that was because their was a bloom left on the glass and she cancelled. I didn't get to inspect the job. My guess is that the bloom was on the inside, and down to her 30 a day smoking habit. Dai
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I do my own house about every 3 months. I have seen some spotting when doing this. The thing is, I am not getting any complaints from customers. Well I did have one, that was because their was a bloom left on the glass and she cancelled. I didn't get to inspect the job. My guess is that the bloom was on the inside, and down to her 30 a day smoking habit. Dai
What exactly do you mean by a bloom Dai?????
Sunshine
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I.
I must stress that if you are not using a monofilament brush head you will be putting dirt back onto the window every time you put the brush on the window.
I never lift to rinse anymore.Sometimes i rinse side to side at the top of the frame .Or rinse using a squeegie motion down the frame without lifting,or simply dont rinse at all if i have scrubbed the glass for longer than usual.
Dave
Dave what's a monofilament brush, who makes them.
Cheers
Doug
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I.
I must stress that if you are not using a monofilament brush head you will be putting dirt back onto the window every time you put the brush on the window.
I never lift to rinse anymore.Sometimes i rinse side to side at the top of the frame .Or rinse using a squeegie motion down the frame without lifting,or simply dont rinse at all if i have scrubbed the glass for longer than usual.
Dave
Dave what's a monofilament brush, who makes them.
Cheers
Doug
Dave monofilament means it is an extremely smooth none-porous surface,heres the brushes i supply,also avaliable in Red,green or yellow,Gaz
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I didn't get to see the windows in question. The only bloom I have ever seen is like a blue/grey film that is caused by nichotine. It would be impossible for pure water to cause this. You can see it on sunny days on the inside of the glass. It makes your applicator and the water in your bucket turn brown. I do an office inside where they allow smoking, it's bloody horrible stuff. Dai
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I think the bloom in question is on the outside of the glass and its a bit like a rainbow (or i have bad eyes)
I have a few customers with this on the glass and i don't think you can get rid of it.
I have tried everything.
So i doubt its the cleaning methods causeing a bloom but the glass itself.
Hope this makes sense half way through a bottle of peach snapps
Paul