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UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Lee Burbidge on March 29, 2013, 12:14:42 pm

Title: What are the rules??
Post by: Lee Burbidge on March 29, 2013, 12:14:42 pm
I have used both trad and wfp for window cleaning. Out of curiosity I want to set up a race between the trad and ladder and the wfp system.... and film it for everyone to see.... question is how do I make it fair.

For example, not all trad guys clean the frame, they leave this to go dirty and then offer a frame cleaning service as extra where as wfp the frames are cleaned by default.

I thought to test this out by arriving at a house, taking off your equipment, setting up, cleaning the job and replacing everything back. So the race starts in the van and finishes in the van.....

Willing to listen to ideas for this film......
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: PAUL ERITH on March 29, 2013, 12:34:59 pm
To make it fair let the trad cleaner start 5 min early  ;D ;D

Paul
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: Pete Thompson on March 29, 2013, 12:35:46 pm
The rules are... clean a 3-storey house.

Lets see how fast your trad guy is handling tripple-section ladders compared to a guy with a 40ft pole  ;D  ;D  ;D
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: andyM on March 29, 2013, 12:47:12 pm
Just use a couple of wendy houses side by side in your back garden.
After all there are some window cleaners who reckon they clean 40+ houses a day, so I presume they must be used to cleaning these wendy houses?  :-X ;D
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: DG Cleaning on March 29, 2013, 12:54:28 pm
Should be average 3 bed semi.
Trad guy doesn't do frames because its not normally what he does.
WFP guy does frames for the same reason.
Don't think there will be much in it.
I suppose all the wfp lot with an inferiority complex will be along soon to slag trad off  ::)roll
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: SunShineCleaning on March 29, 2013, 01:08:26 pm
It would have to be like for like or it is not a fair comparrison.

Front of two identical houses side by side.
The trad guy should wipe the frames (which some of us did do when we were trad.)

Film them both turning up and compare the time and finish.
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: steven ainger on March 29, 2013, 01:15:08 pm
Will the wfp house have phillic or phobic glass ??
It will make a big difference in cleaning time.
Will it be a first clean or regular clean ??
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: DG Cleaning on March 29, 2013, 01:17:37 pm
Wiping the frames isn't the norm for trad yes some do but the vast majority don't.
It shouldn't be about who wins and loses but more about the time difference during a normal days work.
Start putting variables in it and we won't learn anything
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: AuRavelling79 on March 29, 2013, 01:38:30 pm
Oh yeah; encouraging someone to "race" up and down ladders is a great idea, Lee!  ::)roll
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: a900 on March 29, 2013, 01:55:13 pm
What about a row of terraces on bin day? Maybe with a local cat that makes a mess of the alley?

I am wfp btw.  ;D
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: CLEANCARE WC on March 29, 2013, 02:51:46 pm
Wiping the frames isn't the norm for trad yes some do but the vast majority don't.
It shouldn't be about who wins and loses but more about the time difference during a normal days work.
Start putting variables in it and we won't learn anything

Its the norm for most window cleaners i know who are trad and i know dozens.

Also no running up or down ladders its dangerous.
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: CLEANCARE WC on March 29, 2013, 02:53:00 pm
And most definately no ladderslides!
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: [GQC] Tim on March 29, 2013, 03:04:53 pm
It would have to be like for like really. To make it interesting, make it as much ladder work as possible.

Don't think there will be much in it.
I suppose all the wfp lot with an inferiority complex will be along soon to slag trad off

2.5x turnover on basic residential work says otherwise, and then some. Not even talking about commercial. Maybe not initially, but definitely the potential. Never mind all the work that you can't do trad.
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: wfp master on March 29, 2013, 03:22:29 pm
you would have to check the finish of both houses at the end to make sure both are passable whoever does the worst job gets time added on for any runs streaks bits missed ect. like a time penalty  ;)
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: formb on March 29, 2013, 03:25:25 pm
2.5x turnover on basic residential work says otherwise, and then some. Not even talking about commercial. Maybe not initially, but definitely the potential. Never mind all the work that you can't do trad.

A-lot of that difference is due to you not being completely knackered though, I doubt that you'd be 2.5x quicker in a one house race.
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: formb on March 29, 2013, 03:26:06 pm
First clean levels the race.
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: DG Cleaning on March 29, 2013, 03:51:43 pm
Wiping the frames isn't the norm for trad yes some do but the vast majority don't.
It shouldn't be about who wins and loses but more about the time difference during a normal days work.
Start putting variables in it and we won't learn anything

Its the norm for most window cleaners i know who are trad and i know dozens.

Also no running up or down ladders its dangerous.

It might depend on where you live but no one round here cleans frames unless its extra
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: DG Cleaning on March 29, 2013, 03:54:09 pm
It would have to be like for like really. To make it interesting, make it as much ladder work as possible.

Don't think there will be much in it.
I suppose all the wfp lot with an inferiority complex will be along soon to slag trad off

2.5x turnover on basic residential work says otherwise, and then some. Not even talking about commercial. Maybe not initially, but definitely the potential. Never mind all the work that you can't do trad.

See, its started already.
 You cannot pole a house 2.5x faster than I could trad it.
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: David Kent @ KentKleen on March 29, 2013, 04:48:22 pm
I have used both trad and wfp for window cleaning. Out of curiosity I want to set up a race between the trad and ladder and the wfp system.... and film it for everyone to see.... question is how do I make it fair.

For example, not all trad guys clean the frame, they leave this to go dirty and then offer a frame cleaning service as extra where as wfp the frames are cleaned by default.

I thought to test this out by arriving at a house, taking off your equipment, setting up, cleaning the job and replacing everything back. So the race starts in the van and finishes in the van.....

Willing to listen to ideas for this film......

That might be the case where you live but plenty up here (north east) try to get a way with just cleaning glass with wfp. (please note. there are some excellent wfp users up here too)
just do a glass only clean then inspect the results. only the fair way too do it IMO.

p.s. please everyone just keep too trying too clean 'glass only' wfp. I love u all!
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: Paul H on March 29, 2013, 04:53:28 pm
Time is money right ?

So who cares what method is fastest etc... It's about what method pays best ...

Trad could win maybe but only get £5 for the job ....

WFP may get double ....and only be slightly behind

Or vice versa

Just my opinion BTW



Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: jimiwindows on March 29, 2013, 05:10:44 pm
I am mostly trad in londons westend cleaning restaurants i have job that took 45mins on 30ft ladder and im very good on a ladder iv been doing it for 35 years.now i do it wfp and it takes me 15mins and i dont have to have anyone foot the ladder so i dont think going up and down a ladder can be quicker.but if your looking for someone to have a go im your man.
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: wfp master on March 29, 2013, 05:56:18 pm
we have our first victim {i mean volunteer} jimi
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: Ben wood on March 29, 2013, 06:02:38 pm
I think if the test is to clean the windows of the same type then do just that frames and sills is part of the windowso it should be done doing just that. Only cowboys dont so the frames end of.
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: Smudger on March 29, 2013, 06:09:12 pm
Trad or WFP we clean the frames and a test between the 2 should be a service of equal standards

maybe 1 house is not a fair indicator either - could you not find a road where you clean 2 semi's
a detached  property and a bungalow with say at least 200 yards between them  this would give
a better result - not just a race around a single house

houses can be cleaned beforehand and the frames preped with a squirt of dirty water so all things are equal

Darran
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: DG Cleaning on March 29, 2013, 06:11:16 pm
I think if the test is to clean the windows of the same type then do just that frames and sills is part of the windowso it should be done doing just that. Only cowboys dont so the frames end of.

I bet the vast majority of wfp guys were cowboys when they were trad then?
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: DG Cleaning on March 29, 2013, 06:14:36 pm
Just knew this thread would disintegrate into trad v wfp.
Wfp is just a tool used by a lot of tools ;D
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: Fin Clearview on March 29, 2013, 07:12:20 pm
Is the OP a convert? If you are surely your turnover (for standard maintenance cleans) would save you making a video ?
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: jimiwindows on March 29, 2013, 09:06:54 pm
If it was inside and outside ill trad and win.
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: Total shine cleaning services on March 30, 2013, 10:09:02 am
trad and wfp are both tools of the trade,  there will be times and places where each comes into its own, as professional window cleaners I think it's important to have both skillsets as well as all the equipment, as somebody said earlier- as pro window cleaners the frames should be done every time and not as a 2 tier pricing system, price well and do the frames anyway, the race is pointless as wfp will always win, the wfp versus trad thing will rage on but I for one would not dream of marketing myself as a professional window cleaning company without being fully equipped with wfp, trad gear and proper training, again think race is pointless

Graham
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: Neil Gornall on March 30, 2013, 10:22:40 am
To make it an equal race it would have to be a boat that gets cleaned.

That way both sides will be cleaning round windows  ;D
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: jimiwindows on March 30, 2013, 10:51:43 am
Some window cleaners in westend of london just have a bucket with tools and a pole.thay walk form job to job or jump on the bus and can get £200 to £300 a day if you have the work. I done it for 3 years doing restaurants shops offices the lot you dont even need a van.my mate has £75000 a year of work and dont even drive.i have wfp but only use it now and then 250 litres last me 2 to 3 weeks.If you can not trad down here you would not work.I have read on here that some windows cleaners use mr muscle on the inside what a joke that is not how it is done my mum can do that.
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: Fin Clearview on March 30, 2013, 07:29:39 pm
Some window cleaners in westend of london just have a bucket with tools and a pole.thay walk form job to job or jump on the bus and can get £200 to £300 a day if you have the work. I done it for 3 years doing restaurants shops offices the lot you dont even need a van.my mate has £75000 a year of work and dont even drive.i have wfp but only use it now and then 250 litres last me 2 to 3 weeks.If you can not trad down here you would not work.I have read on here that some windows cleaners use mr muscle on the inside what a joke that is not how it is done my mum can do that.

They aren't touching the top frames then? Sounds like a shower to me.
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: [GQC] Tim on March 30, 2013, 11:21:30 pm
It would have to be like for like really. To make it interesting, make it as much ladder work as possible.

Don't think there will be much in it.
I suppose all the wfp lot with an inferiority complex will be along soon to slag trad off

2.5x turnover on basic residential work says otherwise, and then some. Not even talking about commercial. Maybe not initially, but definitely the potential. Never mind all the work that you can't do trad.

See, its started already.
 You cannot pole a house 2.5x faster than I could trad it.

Sure can, why not? The bigger the property the better.  :)

What most people need to keep in mind is that a lot of people that post on here can still improve their speed tremendously. Its not just technique, its everything. It has got nothing to do with inferiority complex, just have an open mind to the possibilities.

I've done both for years, so I think I can comment fairly on both. And still my biggest residential jobs require me to do both.

Back on topic.
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: G Griffin on March 31, 2013, 11:10:38 am
I suggest both wc'ers working in oversized fancy dress with Stuart Hall commentating on it.
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: Lee Burbidge on March 31, 2013, 11:13:37 am
To make it fair let the trad cleaner start 5 min early  ;D ;D

Paul

lol
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: Lee Burbidge on March 31, 2013, 11:15:52 am
Should be average 3 bed semi.
Trad guy doesn't do frames because its not normally what he does.
WFP guy does frames for the same reason.
Don't think there will be much in it.
I suppose all the wfp lot with an inferiority complex will be along soon to slag trad off  ::)roll

This is exactly what I thought. Average 3 bed semi.... good idea re no frames on trad guy as it is not that normal for trad guy to do the frames every time :) thanks
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: Lee Burbidge on March 31, 2013, 11:17:20 am
It would have to be like for like or it is not a fair comparrison.

Front of two identical houses side by side.
The trad guy should wipe the frames (which some of us did do when we were trad.)

Film them both turning up and compare the time and finish.

We might have to vote on this one then as we have one saying take out the frames and you saying keep them in....
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: Lee Burbidge on March 31, 2013, 11:20:08 am
Will the wfp house have phillic or phobic glass ??
It will make a big difference in cleaning time.
Will it be a first clean or regular clean ??


This is good! I need to check that the properties I use are hydrophobic then and determine if they are first cleans or not... thank you
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: Lee Burbidge on March 31, 2013, 11:21:35 am
Wiping the frames isn't the norm for trad yes some do but the vast majority don't.
It shouldn't be about who wins and loses but more about the time difference during a normal days work.
Start putting variables in it and we won't learn anything

Awesome post... thank you
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: Lee Burbidge on March 31, 2013, 11:23:50 am
Oh yeah; encouraging someone to "race" up and down ladders is a great idea, Lee!  ::)roll

Thats not the intention.... its is not a race as such. Both wfp and trad would have to clean realistically as they would in the field :)
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: Lee Burbidge on March 31, 2013, 11:25:14 am
you would have to check the finish of both houses at the end to make sure both are passable whoever does the worst job gets time added on for any runs streaks bits missed ect. like a time penalty  ;)

Good one...
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: Lee Burbidge on March 31, 2013, 11:26:04 am
First clean levels the race.

True... depends on if I can find to first cleans side by side for the film??
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: Lee Burbidge on March 31, 2013, 11:26:48 am
It would have to be like for like really. To make it interesting, make it as much ladder work as possible.

Don't think there will be much in it.
I suppose all the wfp lot with an inferiority complex will be along soon to slag trad off

2.5x turnover on basic residential work says otherwise, and then some. Not even talking about commercial. Maybe not initially, but definitely the potential. Never mind all the work that you can't do trad.



See, its started already.
 You cannot pole a house 2.5x faster than I could trad it.

lol love it
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: Lee Burbidge on March 31, 2013, 11:31:25 am
Trad or WFP we clean the frames and a test between the 2 should be a service of equal standards

maybe 1 house is not a fair indicator either - could you not find a road where you clean 2 semi's
a detached  property and a bungalow with say at least 200 yards between them  this would give
a better result - not just a race around a single house

houses can be cleaned beforehand and the frames preped with a squirt of dirty water so all things are equal

Darran

For this test Im going to do it simple. Two identical houses side by side. Start in the van, stops when back in the van.....
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: CLEANCARE WC on March 31, 2013, 08:25:18 pm
I suggest both wc'ers working in oversized fancy dress with Stuart Hall commentating on it.

It would have to be prison windows then...

That juliet bslcony technique will come in handy!
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: robertphil on March 31, 2013, 08:42:14 pm
gotta be inside and out for it to be a proper duel.
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: Fin Clearview on March 31, 2013, 08:46:30 pm
I think both need to start from their respective vehicles and the tradder needs to start with ladder clamps on.

^ most jobs are externals only so why compare ins and outs?
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: robertphil on March 31, 2013, 10:44:24 pm
I think both need to start from their respective vehicles and the tradder needs to start with ladder clamps on.

^ most jobs are externals only so why compare ins and outs?
  as a trad man i do a fair bit of inside work.   by all accounts WFP lads steer clear of insides but thats just because they havent needed to sharpened up their act imo .   i think a good dual would be two   3 storey town houses that hadnt been done in a longtime in and out . 
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: Fin Clearview on March 31, 2013, 11:20:56 pm
I think both need to start from their respective vehicles and the tradder needs to start with ladder clamps on.

^ most jobs are externals only so why compare ins and outs?
 as a trad man i do a fair bit of inside work.   by all accounts WFP lads steer clear of insides but thats just because they havent needed to sharpened up their act imo .   i think a good dual would be two   3 storey town houses that hadnt been done in a longtime in and out .  

Tbh ins and outs isnt a regular service for most domestic clients. I was trad for 15 years and I can honestly say at a guess insides may of amounted to less than 5% of the work carried out over the years. An equal duel would be starting from vehicles,  external glass & frames, finish with doors shut on vehicles (inc ladders clamped) perfection or time penalties.  
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: Lee Burbidge on April 01, 2013, 08:08:44 am
I think both need to start from their respective vehicles and the tradder needs to start with ladder clamps on.

^ most jobs are externals only so why compare ins and outs?
  as a trad man i do a fair bit of inside work.   by all accounts WFP lads steer clear of insides but thats just because they havent needed to sharpened up their act imo .   i think a good dual would be two   3 storey town houses that hadnt been done in a longtime in and out . 

I would agree with the other post. Most window cleaners do out side only as a primary part of the job so it will have to be out only. We need to be careful about overcomplicating with too many variables as posted by somebody previously which I agree with :)
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: Dave Willis on April 01, 2013, 08:45:42 am
Don't forget the windows above the conservatory and the porch at the front.
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: G Griffin on April 01, 2013, 08:51:12 am
Throw in some obstacles- the back/side gate being locked. A load of wheely bins in the way. A bbq full of rain water that needs to be moved and soaks your leg. A small, yapping dog running round your feet and the customer insisting 'he only wants to say hello'. Or the customer asking 'do you want to have a look at my new fitted kitchen?' or telling you about her son's promotion at work or the hip replacement she recently had.
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: robertphil on April 01, 2013, 08:55:58 am
 agree with Griff , a more intresting  test would be if both were wearing handcuffs  or using feet only
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: jimiwindows on April 01, 2013, 11:05:12 am
wfp boys insides with mr muscle will take all day thats why they dont want to do insides
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: SunShineCleaning on April 01, 2013, 11:22:04 am
wfp boys insides with mr muscle will take all day thats why they dont want to do insides

Maybe you're forgetting all the window cleaners who for 20 years did trad cleaning then made the change to WFP.

We don't just forget how to do it. I do both in my video listed below.
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: Fin Clearview on April 01, 2013, 11:47:20 am
wfp boys insides with mr muscle will take all day thats why they dont want to do insides

Fancy a race yourself then mate? 
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: jimiwindows on April 01, 2013, 11:57:54 am
YES
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: Fin Clearview on April 01, 2013, 12:07:37 pm
wfp boys insides with mr muscle will take all day thats why they dont want to do insides

Fancy a race yourself then mate? 

Lets get it on then and put your myth to bed  ;) next wc show?
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: MATT BATEMAN (OWC) on April 01, 2013, 12:38:14 pm
Use Terry Turbot to do the ladder work.

That way we can kill two birds with one stone. See which method is quickest and see if Terry really can clean a window without missing any and with detailing.  ;D
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: Dave Willis on April 01, 2013, 01:20:53 pm
Terry doesn't like ladders.
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: jimiwindows on April 01, 2013, 01:23:49 pm
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1364819013_HOUSE.jpg)
use a house in london old sash window when wfp water gos inside.no access to back of house extension on top can not be wfp. In london they all want insides cleaned.
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: andyM on April 01, 2013, 01:27:07 pm
Use Terry Turbot  to do the ladder work.

That way we can kill two birds with one stone. See which method is quickest and see if Terry really can clean a window without missing any and with detailing.  ;D

Sounds a bit fishy?
Title: Re: What are the rules??
Post by: CLEANCARE WC on April 01, 2013, 01:36:41 pm
Use Terry Turbot  to do the ladder work.

That way we can kill two birds with one stone. See which method is quickest and see if Terry really can clean a window without missing any and with detailing.  ;D

Sounds a bit fishy?
  ;D