Clean It Up

UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Mist A Bit on March 26, 2013, 10:39:38 am

Title: parts per billion
Post by: Mist A Bit on March 26, 2013, 10:39:38 am
Anyone using ppb yet, is it worth paying for in terms of extra speed
Title: Re: parts per billion
Post by: scottt24 on March 26, 2013, 11:00:32 am
I personally use water upto about 10 - 15 ppm and don't notice any difference in speed than when I have fresh resin in
Can't really see how ppb will make much difference
Title: Re: parts per billion
Post by: Ian101 on March 26, 2013, 11:02:43 am
i was going to invest but decided to wait for the parts per trillion to come out  ;)
Title: Re: parts per billion
Post by: bobplum on March 26, 2013, 11:32:15 am
its going to be like the razor blade syndrome,"3 blades,the closest a man can get"  "4 blades...the best a man can get and  so on
Title: Re: parts per billion
Post by: gavinb on March 26, 2013, 12:17:24 pm
Im currently designing a system that will produce water to parts per quadrillion .
Title: Re: parts per billion
Post by: Ian101 on March 26, 2013, 12:22:57 pm
Im currently designing a system that will produce water to parts per quadrillion .

ok will wait for that then ..........  stuff the parts per trillion idea
Title: Re: parts per billion
Post by: richard jagger on March 26, 2013, 12:25:56 pm
I THINK THIS IS FOR THE NUTS IN OUR BUSINESS.
Title: Re: parts per billion
Post by: MATT BATEMAN (OWC) on March 26, 2013, 01:03:39 pm
If 10 PPM is okay to use, and IMO it is, why are you considering using water at 0.0010 PPM which is what we are talking about here, 1,000 times cleaner?

Why would you want or need that?
Title: Re: parts per billion
Post by: colin purewater on March 26, 2013, 02:36:30 pm
Ppb wasn't designed for us normal window cleaners!
It was designed for the big boys who do massive
Contracts on a yearly+ schedule!

Windows   that don't  get done offered and are green and
Full of  gunk etc
 The hot ppb system will come in to its own  then
And be worth every penny on time saved if you did a lot
If really minging jobs.

Title: Re: parts per billion
Post by: gavinb on March 26, 2013, 02:57:21 pm
But whats the point ? When 10 ppm will suffice !!!
Just another marketing ploy from the big boys .
Title: Re: parts per billion
Post by: colin purewater on March 26, 2013, 03:08:38 pm
But whats the point ? When 10 ppm will suffice !!!
Just another marketing ploy from the big boys .

010 ppm is fine on maintenance clean and won't
Leave spotting etc

But when clean REALLY dirty stuff 010 won't cut
Though the dirt any where near as fast as ppb
Machine

Title: Re: parts per billion
Post by: CLEANCARE WC on March 26, 2013, 03:18:28 pm
What a load of rubbish ppb will not clean any better than ppm it is the scrubbing that does the cleaning the only reason we use pure water 0 ppm as us mortals know it is for the rinse so we dont leave water marks etc.

Yes its a little agressive but its the brush that does the work.

Anyone who falls for this probably bought the emperors 2nd hand clothes too!

And as for use on yearly or even less frequent jobs.. Still clap trap it is not magic water that melts dirt.

Scrub and rinse correctly with anything under 10 ppm job done. End of
Title: Re: parts per billion
Post by: wfp master on March 26, 2013, 03:19:19 pm
Scrub scrub.
Title: Re: parts per billion
Post by: colin purewater on March 26, 2013, 03:55:07 pm
What a load of rubbish ppb will not clean any better than ppm it is the scrubbing that does the cleaning the only reason we use pure water 0 ppm as us mortals know it is for the rinse so we dont leave water marks etc.

Yes its a little agressive but its the brush that does the work.

Anyone who falls for this probably bought the emperors 2nd hand clothes too!

And as for use on yearly or even less frequent jobs.. Still clap trap it is not magic water that melts dirt.

Scrub and rinse correctly with anything under 10 ppm job done. End of

Are you trying to tell me I've been walking round
Naked all this Time?
Title: Re: parts per billion
Post by: CLEANCARE WC on March 26, 2013, 03:57:42 pm
What a load of rubbish ppb will not clean any better than ppm it is the scrubbing that does the cleaning the only reason we use pure water 0 ppm as us mortals know it is for the rinse so we dont leave water marks etc.

Yes its a little agressive but its the brush that does the work.

Anyone who falls for this probably bought the emperors 2nd hand clothes too!

And as for use on yearly or even less frequent jobs.. Still clap trap it is not magic water that melts dirt.

Scrub and rinse correctly with anything under 10 ppm job done. End of

Are you trying to tell me I've been walking round
Naked all this Time?


I hope not Colin  :D
Title: Re: parts per billion
Post by: Mike @ Facelift on March 26, 2013, 04:12:36 pm
I find it interesting that the explanation is ...."PPB is for large commerical window cleaners who only clean once a year"

In the USA, almost all windows are cleaned only once or twice yearly. Basically every window clean in the USA is like a first clean in the UK. (not my words)

They still use normal RO/DI and results are obviously good enough to keep there customers happy.
Title: Re: parts per billion
Post by: Nathanael Jones on March 26, 2013, 04:35:58 pm
For the sake of simplicity I'm going to use round numbers in this explanation - but do the math with your own TDS readings and see for your self what a steaming pile of Bull poo the "1000x better" marketing lie from Ionics is.

I have a 1000 litre static tank, a tap TDS of 300 and for the sake of math, lets say I use water at 001 (I always aim for 000).

So - 1000 litres = 1000,000 (1 million) milliliters - with water 1ml = 1gram, so 1000 litres of tap water contains 300grams of dissolved solids - of which my RO & DI remove 299 grams.

Keeping up so far?? Lets try that math with a system kicking out 1PPB:

My 1000 litre tank still contains 300grams of dissolved solids, the fancy new system now removes 299.999grams of dissolved solids - nearly a whole extra gram!!

So - the PPB system actually removes 0.333% (One third of one percent) more dissolved solids from my water - - instead of 1000x better its actually 0.00333x better.

It is however 1000x better at telling you when you need to change your filters - so consumables on these systems probably make their manufacturers more profit,..
Title: Re: parts per billion
Post by: Goldoak cleaning specialists on March 26, 2013, 07:04:50 pm
Id love one iv seen the system but like people have said.000 is fine 010 is fine its just another machine that does clean water more but that more is a little pointless. Its just there if u have the money. Its like the boxter and then the 3.5 Boxter thats all u get is another 7mph top end..not really worth it. .

Honestly if I had a spare 14k hanging around id buy one only because life to short and could say I had one.
Title: Re: parts per billion
Post by: dazmond on March 26, 2013, 07:25:48 pm
most of my regular maintenance window cleaning work is relatively clean so only need a quick scrub and rinse in most cases so i dont think ill be investing in "part per billion" ;D ;D
Title: Re: parts per billion
Post by: PoleKing on March 26, 2013, 11:35:01 pm
Nat-Genius!
Knew it was BS from Ionic but your explanation is brilliant!
Title: Re: parts per billion
Post by: MATT BATEMAN (OWC) on March 26, 2013, 11:58:07 pm
Someone needs to phone Ionics up and say "You've got 20 minutes, convince me".
Title: Re: parts per billion
Post by: Pete Thompson on March 27, 2013, 12:23:42 am
your maths is wrong young grass hopper.

the starting tds has nothing to do with it, because the amount of impurities removed is not what they're talking about.  Its the amount of impurities left over that you need to compare.

Quote
So - the PPB system actually removes 0.333% (One third of one percent) more dissolved solids from my water - - instead of 1000x better its actually 0.00333x better.

They are not saying that their PPB system removes 1000x more impurities, they are saying the resulting water is 1000x more pure, these are very different things.

If you had water that was 1ppm, what would be 1000x purer than that?  It would be 0.001 parts per million, which is 1 part per billion.

To use another example, if you had water that was 10ppm and you wanted it 10x more pure, its pretty obvious that you would want it to be 1ppm.  You wouldnt say you had to remove 10x as many impurities, because how much you remove depends on what you started with.  In fact you simply couldnt remove 10x as many impurities because there arent that many impurities left.  (If you started with 300ppm and ended with 10ppm, you removed 290ppm.  But you couldnt remove 10x that - 2,900ppm because the water was less than that when you started)

As I say, its not about removing 1000x more impurities, its about there being 1000x less in the remaining water.  Water that is 1ppb really is 1000x purer than water at 1ppm, that's not marketing, that's a simple fact.
Title: Re: parts per billion
Post by: MATT BATEMAN (OWC) on March 27, 2013, 08:59:32 am
(http://stopmebeforeivoteagain.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/hippoyawn.jpg)
Title: Re: parts per billion
Post by: Nathanael Jones on March 27, 2013, 09:16:38 am
your maths is wrong young grass hopper.

the starting tds has nothing to do with it, because the amount of impurities removed is not what they're talking about.  Its the amount of impurities left over that you need to compare.

Quote
So - the PPB system actually removes 0.333% (One third of one percent) more dissolved solids from my water - - instead of 1000x better its actually 0.00333x better.

They are not saying that their PPB system removes 1000x more impurities, they are saying the resulting water is 1000x more pure, these are very different things.

If you had water that was 1ppm, what would be 1000x purer than that?  It would be 0.001 parts per million, which is 1 part per billion.

To use another example, if you had water that was 10ppm and you wanted it 10x more pure, its pretty obvious that you would want it to be 1ppm.  You wouldnt say you had to remove 10x as many impurities, because how much you remove depends on what you started with.  In fact you simply couldnt remove 10x as many impurities because there arent that many impurities left.  (If you started with 300ppm and ended with 10ppm, you removed 290ppm.  But you couldnt remove 10x that - 2,900ppm because the water was less than that when you started)

As I say, its not about removing 1000x more impurities, its about there being 1000x less in the remaining water.  Water that is 1ppb really is 1000x purer than water at 1ppm, that's not marketing, that's a simple fact.

I agree - it really is 1000x purer.

Ionics marketing of this system suggests that its significantly better for cleaning - where in reality its only one 3rd of one percent more effective. Its this that pees me off!
Title: Re: parts per billion
Post by: cleartech Window Cleaners on March 27, 2013, 10:51:31 am
I have been using parts per billion for the last month and if I'm honest its not worth all the extra cash they are asking. It hasn't drastically reduced times on first cleans and windows don't get cleaned better than with 0 ppm water. On problem windows it will still leave drip marks whichever water you use. We have used the ppb water along with thermopure and it does seem to clean better and quicker but I imagine it is down more to the hot water than the purity of it. Personally I think its more of a gimmick to make money.  >:(