Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Hard Floor Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Kev Martin on March 19, 2013, 01:54:28 pm
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There is a lot of talk and speculation regarding Diamond Polishing Pads and what they can achieve.
Diamond Polishing Pads were developed primarily as maintenance pads so that a floor once it was laid or restored (Ground, honed and polished) could be maintained without the need of calling in professional restorers again. No diamond pad that we have ever tried or tested including but not limited to Twister, Rhino, KGS, Monkey, Cheetah, Klindex Supershine Soft or Hard, Starline or Highline. These pads vary from Bonded Diamonds to pads with resin and even metal discs adhered to them. We have tried all the aforementioned and not one of them was able to restore any marked and scratched floor with lippage that we tested them on. In addition despite recent claims any pad, even without diamonds will cause an orange peel finish on the surface if not used correctly.
This said, I genuinely believe maintenance pads do have a place in any cleaning professionals armoury as long as you don't expect them to perform miracles. They will certainly improve lightly scratched floors and may even eliminate some or all the scratches provided they are not too deep. They will also help tremendously to erase some acid etching again as long as it is not severe.
The only effective method of eliminating deep scratches and heavy lippage is to use a diamond grinding machine fitted with the appropriate planetario head for the stone rotating at between 500-3200 rpm depending on the stone fitted with the correct Metal Sintered diamonds to grind and the correct resin bonded diamonds to hone and close the surface tension back down.
So whats the difference? Well some diamond pads are better than others but like baked beans in tomato sauce or cornflakes 70% are made by two manufacturers and sold under different brand names. We have found through extensive testing, experience and value for money that Klindex Soft Supershine and KGS were the best in terms of performance. The Cheetah pads are good but horrendously expensive in fact more than 5 x times the cost of Klindex and KGS.
This said I am as always ready to be converted. So if anyone believes that they have the ultimate diamond pads that can completely restore a damaged floor please feel free to invite me to a demonstration or send me a set to try I will even pay for them.
Kev Martin
Marble Life Ltd
Tiling Logistics
I put the above post on the CIU 20 Months ago! I still stand by what I said and to date no one has offered me pads to try or offered to sell me a set.
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I feel that a further clarification is required in reply to some recent posts on various forums!
This morning I went to the Cleaning Show and KGS have some new pads which they claim are made from Ferrazon. I have ordered a set to try them! However, they made it clear that they will still cause some orange peeling and they insist that the heavier the machine and the more RPM used the better the finish.
My intention is to therefore test them on a normal speed 50KG machine and then do an adjacent area using a variable speed Levighetor with 3 weights giving a speed of 400 RPM and a weight of up to 117KG. Once I have completed the tests I will put a report on here with photos and accurate gloss meter readings. Since the original post we have tested two other makes of pads one of which was a Hybrid System the results and findings were the same. Yesterday we tested the new Cheetah System which employs 4 different grades of round resin diamonds which you attach to a drive board the results of which were also disaappointing.
The fact remains that Pads have a place in the cleaning and re polishing of stone but you need to understand their limitations "They will not remove deep scratching or Lippage effectively". The only effective way to do this is with a planetario system, weight as required depending on the stage and the correct RPM appropriate to the stone being restored.
Try and look at it from another point:
You have a block of wood that you wish to remove 10mm off. I hand you 10 different grits of sandpaper and tell you to get on with it! I then take an identical block of wood and use an electric plane and finish of with wet & dry of various grits. Yes you may get the similar results eventually:
1. Over how long?
2. Will you get the same finish? No Chance because you will not be able to maintain an even pressure with paper!
This is the same story with stone! Pads don't wear evenly, they don't have an even distribution of abrasive and they are flexible so they move and subsequently apply different pressures in different areas!
Conclusion:
I sell these pads and believe me we sell a lot of them in a larger variety of sizes than anyone else in the Country!
However in my opinion and until someone proves me wrong, they will never be as good as a dedicated restoration system.
I for one will not be disposing of my professional restoration equipment until someone does prove me wrong!
So finally the challenge still stands:
If anyone thinks I am wrong and they have a better system "I will meet anywhere within reason on any type of floor and they can do their half with their system and we will do the other half with our system" We will get someone independent to time us, take before and after photos, before and after Gloss Meter Readings and then say who they think has achieved the best results!
Kev Martin
Marblelife Ltd
Tiling Logistics
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The Ferrzon pads are quite an improvement over the previous Flexis version.
Had them here for a few months now.
Only thing for any existing user purchasing them is that they can only go from a lower grade of the original pads to a higher of the Ferrzon and not the other way round.
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I will try them next week and let you know. What machine have you been using? That Dowding & Plummer thing looks like a bag of nails! Have you tried it?
Kev Martin
Marblelife Ltd
Tiling Logistics
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Its an updated version of the variable speed Victor machine by Dowding & Plummer.
I personally cant see the need for KGS to have their Rocky system what with everything else in their range.
I might be getting confused here. The pads I am referring too are the Ferrzon Flexis Pads (like Supershines).
Are youreferring to these?
(http://www.kgs-cleaning-maintenance.com/ROCKY_files/MultiSpeed.jpg)
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Its an updated version of the variable speed Victor machine by Dowding & Plummer.
I personally cant see the need for KGS to have their Rocky system what with everything else in their range.
I might be getting confused here. The pads I am referring too are the Ferrzon Flexis Pads (like Supershines).
Are youreferring to these?
(http://www.kgs-cleaning-maintenance.com/ROCKY_files/MultiSpeed.jpg)
Jamie
That's the machine i am referring to but not those pads. The ones I am referring to are the Ferzon ones that look like the Klindex Supershines. So clearly you have tried them! On what machine and how did they compare to the KGS Flexis that we used to sell? Did you use a stasndard RPM machine? Did you apply any extra weight? Come on spill? Lets have it and no porkies :D
Kev martin
Marblelife ltd
Tiling Logistics
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225rpm Wirbel with 10.5kg weight kit wet and an 800rpm Cimex with additional 45kg dry.
We dont use them all that often but have noticed that over the red ones they last longer and they definately seem to produce better results. Not done any scientific testing just feedback from my guys. We usually finish all our maintenance jobs with polishing powder.
The best trial of them will be on Thursday night on a black marble that gets wrecked by road sal and has loads of led lights so cant have diamonds run on it. The client accepts that there will be orange peel but wants a high gloss. This is it after polishing.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/250719_163474193717230_2980042_n.jpg)
This is the dry polishing job
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/302580_230678913663424_333369216_n.jpg)
The person that has noticed the biggest difference is a cleaning contractor with a ride on who runs them on a warehouse concrete floor.
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Are they better dry or wet?
Kev Martin
Marblelife Ltd
Tiling Logistics
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Nice work Jamie :)
We find they produce more gloss when used dry, plenty of weight and as much speed as possible. The KGS brochure indicates that wet processes are for cleaning, dry for polishing which from testing I'd agree with.
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My heads in bits now with all of this - gonna have to get some counselling - more questions now than when I started down this road :)
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Nice work Jamie :)
We find they produce more gloss when used dry, plenty of weight and as much speed as possible. The KGS brochure indicates that wet processes are for cleaning, dry for polishing which from testing I'd agree with.
So they are better than Rhino Pads then????
Kev Martin
Marblelife Ltd
Tiling Logistics
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Nice work Jamie :)
We find they produce more gloss when used dry, plenty of weight and as much speed as possible. The KGS brochure indicates that wet processes are for cleaning, dry for polishing which from testing I'd agree with.
So they are better than Rhino Pads then????
Kev Martin
Marblelife Ltd
Tiling Logistics
Lol, you couldn't resist ;)
Definitely better than the klindex pads :-*
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Nice work Jamie :)
We find they produce more gloss when used dry, plenty of weight and as much speed as possible. The KGS brochure indicates that wet processes are for cleaning, dry for polishing which from testing I'd agree with.
So they are better than Rhino Pads then????
Kev Martin
Marblelife Ltd
Tiling Logistics
Lol, you couldn't resist ;)
Definitely better than the klindex pads :-*
Dave
Firstly Klindex updated their SS Pads 10 months ago and I wasn't aware you had tried the new ones! If you have then you didn't buy them from me! This is why I have ordered the newer KGS to try them and if they are better than the Klindex or even as good I will start selling them again!!! Whilst I continually state I hate all pads there are people who clearly like them because we sell dozens of sets a month! I don't like KIA Cars either but there are 1000's out there that do! Finally you are right I could not resist the comment about the Rhino Pads ::)roll ::)roll ::)roll
Kev Martin
Marblelife Ltd
Tiling Logistics
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The Ferrzon pads are quite an improvement over the previous Flexis version.
Had them here for a few months now.
Only thing for any existing user purchasing them is that they can only go from a lower grade of the original pads to a higher of the Ferrzon and not the other way round.
Jamie, has any one got any info on this substance Ferrzon. In booklet I got from the cleaning show it states that Ferrzon is the only substance that can scratch diamonds. After a quick search i cant find any info on this material. Is it a trade mark name for an abrasive.
Wiki says the following, can any one shead any light. Your pictures look great but I'm intrested in this new abrasive technology.
"Diamond is the hardest known natural material on the Mohs scale of mineral hardness, where hardness is defined as resistance to scratching and is graded between 1 (softest) and 10 (hardest). Diamond has a hardness of 10 (hardest) on this scale.[25] Diamond's hardness has been known since antiquity, and is the source of its name.
Diamond hardness depends on its purity, crystalline perfection and orientation: hardness is higher for flawless, pure crystals oriented to the <111> direction (along the longest diagonal of the cubic diamond lattice).[26] Therefore, whereas it might be possible to scratch some diamonds with other materials, such as boron nitride, the hardest diamonds can only be scratched by other diamonds and nanocrystalline diamond aggregates.
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I can't answer that but will ask the question. I know that it is a registered trademark/brand.
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We should be getting our set this week from Jerry at KGS. I am going to try them next week side by side with the Klindex Super Shines. I think from talking to a few people the KGS seem to be achieving better results. My problem with pads I find is when you get to the final stage you need to keep checking your not turning the floor into an orange.
Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics
Marblelife Ltd
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I finally got the pads from KGS and tried them! They are an improvement on the KGS Flexi's but not enough to make me stock them. Jerrey from KGS is coming to see me in a few weeks so I want to set him on a floor with them with his machine and see how they perform! Perhaps we are doing something wrong? Martin Shelley mentioned he did them dry I think! In the meantime we will continue with the Klindex Supershines Soft & Hard and if the KGS Ferzon prove to be better when we do the test with Jerry then we will be selling KGS again as well
Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
Marblelife Ltd
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My heads in bits now with all of this - gonna have to get some counselling - more questions now than when I started down this road :)
I also think I am regretting going down this road how can I justify spending more money on equip when the stuff I purchased apparently will never do the job it was purchased for.
Kevin I would come to you anytime any day for you to show me what does work.I am keen to learn I also think a lot of others would Join in.
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My heads in bits now with all of this - gonna have to get some counselling - more questions now than when I started down this road :)
I also think I am regretting going down this road how can I justify spending more money on equip when the stuff I purchased apparently will never do the job it was purchased for.
Kevin I would come to you anytime any day for you to show me what does work.I am keen to learn I also think a lot of others would Join in.
I have already heard several stories of heartbreak and misery regarding a certain pad and puck system! I can only re-iterate that until someone can come and restore a floor in front of me with pads/pucks or anything else you call them I will never stop saying they don't work! The only way to grind is using a Planetario System with the appropriate speed and fitted with the correct diamonds to deal with the stone you are grinding! Then hone / polish it to what ever level is required!
SO I WILL SAY IT AGAIN!!! ANYONE IS WELCOME TO COME TO MY UNIT AND DEMONSTRATE THEIR PAD / PUCK SYSTEM OR WHATEVER THEY CALL IT ON A FLOOR THAT HAS NOT BEEN PREVIOUSLY PREPARED. I WILL EVEN LAY THE STONE OF THEIR CHOICE. LOTS OF YOU MAY HAVE SEEN THEM WORK IN A CLASSROOM SITUATION BUT NO ONE ON GODS GREEEN EARTH IS GOING TO CONVINCE ME UNLESS THEY DO IT IN FRONT OF ME ON AN UNPREPARED FLOOR.
We are looking at a small job this weekend 122M2 Rough Six Sided Sawn limestone in a luxury house with up to 7mm of lippage and he wants it ground flat and then honed. Anyone in the Country want to bring their Pad / Puck System and show me how it's done???
Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
Marblelife Ltd