Clean It Up

UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Dave Willis on March 18, 2013, 04:33:27 pm

Title: How safe is your gas?
Post by: Dave Willis on March 18, 2013, 04:33:27 pm
My heater has been smelling a bit 'gassy' lately. I thought it might be the windy weather blowing fumes back down the flue. Anyway it was a calm day today and the whiff of gas was even stronger. I checked the gas pipe and jubilee clips with fairy liquid and all seemed fine. Carried on working then thought I'd check the regulator was tight - it was. Then I poured some soap onto the threads of the regulator and it bubbled up straight away. Took the van into the marine centre where I bought the cylinder to get it checked out. Turns out the valve was badly corroded on the cylinder itself preventing the regulator from seating properly.
Quite worrying really.
Title: Re: How safe is your gas?
Post by: Michael Peterson on March 18, 2013, 05:15:57 pm
should be part of checks all the time, keep fairy liquiding all the joins and all will be fine mate
Title: Re: How safe is your gas?
Post by: Deangsi on March 18, 2013, 05:17:59 pm
should be part of checks all the time, keep fairy liquiding all the joins and all will be fine mate

good post
Title: Re: How safe is your gas?
Post by: steven ainger on March 18, 2013, 05:25:24 pm
i had a few problems when i used the lpg cylinders from the garage,
i used ptfe tap around the threads when i replaced the cyclinders.
i now use the refillable tank which you dont have to unscrew the regulator and its alot better.
Title: Re: How safe is your gas?
Post by: bobplum on March 18, 2013, 07:17:35 pm
you should not use fairy,get the proper stuff from a plumbers merchant,fairy corrodes metal
Title: Re: How safe is your gas?
Post by: steven ainger on March 18, 2013, 07:20:23 pm
So does this mean wfp is better on metal frame windows than trad guys using fairy ???
Title: Re: How safe is your gas?
Post by: bobplum on March 18, 2013, 07:41:43 pm
it probably relates to copper more than most metals(i think)
it was found to corrode metals? because it contains various oils and i believe salt,a lot of gas engineers use to use it for detection reasons and this is how the found out it corrodes.
I was also told you should never use it to wash cars for the same reason so i guess it can corrode other metals

...............you have haven't you............washed your golf sticks
Title: Re: How safe is your gas?
Post by: steven ainger on March 18, 2013, 07:48:59 pm
Also another point on gas safety,
I was told at the caravan service garage, where i fill up my gas cylinder, that the gas hoses have a sell by date on them as they degrade after a few years & should be replaced,

Title: Re: How safe is your gas?
Post by: AuRavelling79 on March 18, 2013, 09:44:09 pm
On my Camping Gaz cooker to bottle hose it says "remplacer avant 1989!"

 :o :o :o

Title: Re: How safe is your gas?
Post by: LBWCS on March 19, 2013, 08:10:34 am
Excellent post I think we should talk more about gas safety. A do's and don'ts checklist.
Title: Re: How safe is your gas?
Post by: Spruce on March 19, 2013, 10:00:54 am
A good reason why gas bottles in caravans are always on the draw bar outside of the living areas. Motor homes have them in a sealed to the van compartment vented outside.

Wasn't the company Reach it selling their gas heater conversion with a sealed gas container vented to the outside through the floor?

Personally I think the safest way is a 'Gas It' tank and external filler system. Yes, it much more expensive but a least its safer.

Countering that, I haven't heard of a report of a builder's van/roofer's van 'blowing' up because of a faulty gas bottle, although I have heard reports of a couple of caravans catching fire.

Title: Re: How safe is your gas?
Post by: Ronnie Bryce on March 19, 2013, 10:40:20 am
Transporting cylinders in cars, vans, or in any enclosed vehicle is extremely dangerous, and should be avoided. Never transport flammable gases in the trunk or passenger compartment of a vehicle. Many persons disregard this warning every year, and there are many vehicle explosions as a result. We urge you to have the cylinders delivered in an appropriate vehicle.

LINK..
http://www.airgas.com/content/details.aspx?id=7000000000010

I don't use gas myself. Is it not extremely dangerous to have your boilers fitted to rear door's though? What would happen if you had a hard impact from the rear and sparks hit a ruptured pipe or joint on the unit. Would that be kaboom or am I missing summat?
Title: Re: How safe is your gas?
Post by: home6442 on March 19, 2013, 10:56:53 am
Another point to remember is that gas is heavier than air so can build up on the floor
of the van if leaking.
That why motorhome gas compartments have the air vents at the bottom.
Title: Re: How safe is your gas?
Post by: Scrimble on March 19, 2013, 11:15:48 am


I don't use gas myself. Is it not extremely dangerous to have your boilers fitted to rear door's though? What would happen if you had a hard impact from the rear and sparks hit a ruptured pipe or joint on the unit. Would that be kaboom or am I missing summat?

you shut the gas off at the bottle when not in use, if a pipe to the heater itself is ruptured gas wont just pour out of the bottle
Title: Re: How safe is your gas?
Post by: Ronnie Bryce on March 19, 2013, 11:21:45 am


I don't use gas myself. Is it not extremely dangerous to have your boilers fitted to rear door's though? What would happen if you had a hard impact from the rear and sparks hit a ruptured pipe or joint on the unit. Would that be kaboom or am I missing summat?

you shut the gas off at the bottle when not in use, if a pipe to the heater itself is ruptured gas wont just pour out of the bottle

But it will come out the pipe and whatever is in the boiler unit, potential for a fire?

Have a look at this link. The problem here, at least to me is that boilers are not intended to be fitted to vans, nor is the coupling devices to the gas container. I am not scaremainering but think many of you fail to realize just what you are playing with at times.
http://mines.industry.qld.gov.au/assets/petroleum-pdf/safety_alert050.pdf
Title: Re: How safe is your gas?
Post by: mattstanley on March 19, 2013, 12:03:02 pm
I think it will be only a matter of time before we hear about a window cleaner who has a nasty incident with their cobbled together hot water system - I agree with Ronnie, I fear some are being a bit complacent  :-\
Title: Re: How safe is your gas?
Post by: Scrimble on March 19, 2013, 01:15:26 pm
I think it will be only a matter of time before we hear about a window cleaner who has a nasty incident with their cobbled together hot water system - I agree with Ronnie, I fear some are being a bit complacent  :-\

i agree, however i do believe that with the right measures in place they can be fitted and used safely,
Title: Re: How safe is your gas?
Post by: wfp master on March 19, 2013, 03:57:10 pm
I think it will be only a matter of time before we hear about a window cleaner who has a nasty incident with their cobbled together hot water system - I agree with Ronnie, I fear some are being a bit complacent  :-\
yes a D I Y  job. gas & electricity is not something to mess around with & defo a no no in a confined space like a van.

i agree, however i do believe that with the right measures in place they can be fitted and used safely,
some will still try & D I Y thats when problems could start.
Title: Re: How safe is your gas?
Post by: Dave Willis on March 19, 2013, 04:44:30 pm
Mine was obviously seeping out gas during use. So the heater could ignite it or quite possibly a spark from the pump could ignite any gas build up particularly as I leave the controller on all day. The fact that I always work with the tailgate fully open helps (Toyota Hiace) but there is potential there for trouble. I think some vents through the floor would be a good idea.
Gone back to cold water today.  ;D
Title: Re: How safe is your gas?
Post by: Paul Clapham on March 19, 2013, 04:46:43 pm
Have you guys had your Gas water heaters fitted by a registered "Gas Safe " fitter ,

and how does it affect your van insurance?

cheers

Paul



Title: Re: How safe is your gas?
Post by: Scrimble on March 19, 2013, 05:06:03 pm
do you even need to have it installed by a gas safe engineer?

i'm with a plan and my heater, propane bottle and wfp tank etc is all declared on insurance, it was actually cheaper than who i was with before
Title: Re: How safe is your gas?
Post by: Paul Clapham on March 19, 2013, 10:16:11 pm
I would have thought , for insurance reasons, it would need to be fitted be a registered Gas Safe installer for insurance reasons, re safety certification ??

Title: Re: How safe is your gas?
Post by: mattstanley on March 20, 2013, 09:00:32 am
I would have thought , for insurance reasons, it would need to be fitted be a registered Gas Safe installer for insurance reasons, re safety certification ??



I really don't know but I would have thought this should be the case. I reckon (though I don't know) no one in authority has thought of this scenario and all the DIYers a utilising a big loop hole - as I say, I'm only guessing.

Just for the record, I'm cold water wfp, so have no axe to grind.
Title: Re: How safe is your gas?
Post by: richard jagger on March 20, 2013, 10:18:16 am
The boilers do not need to be fitted by a gas fitter as they are regarded  as portable camping water heater. What I have fitted is a gas alarm of my van battery.  Got this of e bay a little pricy but worth the safety factor fitted it on the floor of the van.THis is the alarm I have fitted on the floor in my van £59 off e bay.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Gas-Alarm-Carbon-Monoxide-Knockout-Gas-Butane-Propane-LPG-Coal-Gas-/140636887828?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_BoatEquipment_Accessories_SM&hash=item20be9c9b14

 Just found a cheaper one below:


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Gas-Alarm-863-Dual-Sensor-Alerts-CO-LPG-Knockout-Gas-Motorhome-12v-230v-/290866656087?pt=UK_Campervan_Caravan_Accessories&hash=item43b900f357http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Gas-alarm-Ga-617-Natural-propane-and-butane-gas-Mains-or-12-Volt-/251241532547?pt=UK_Campervan_Caravan_Accessories&hash=item3a7f298c83

Title: Re: How safe is your gas?
Post by: Scrimble on March 20, 2013, 10:23:17 am
I would have thought , for insurance reasons, it would need to be fitted be a registered Gas Safe installer for insurance reasons, re safety certification ??

it would be for your own safety
Title: Re: How safe is your gas?
Post by: Paul Clapham on March 20, 2013, 10:25:43 am
the last time I insured my Van i had to declare all modifications to it , this included even the ply lining,

I am a carpet cleaner , but IF I was carrying gas for heating up the water for WFP window cleaning I would make sure that I was covered on my insurance.............Just to be on the safe side, I would recommend that you check your policy or even call them up and have a chat with them, because if you have an accident and they discover that you had not told them you where carrying Gas they might  invalidate your insurance.


  
Title: Re: How safe is your gas?
Post by: richard jagger on March 20, 2013, 10:42:00 am
I agree to your insurance commitments but one needs to be aware of these things even a leaking exhaust can lead to sleepiness and a possible bad result and harm to yourself.
Title: Re: How safe is your gas?
Post by: LBWCS on March 20, 2013, 10:43:32 am
The boilers do not need to be fitted by a gas fitter as they are regarded  as portable camping water heater. What I have fitted is a gas alarm of my van battery.  Got this of e bay a little pricy but worth the safety factor fitted it on the floor of the van.THis is the alarm I have fitted on the floor in my van £59 off e bay.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Gas-Alarm-Carbon-Monoxide-Knockout-Gas-Butane-Propane-LPG-Coal-Gas-/140636887828?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_BoatEquipment_Accessories_SM&hash=item20be9c9b14

 Just found a cheaper one below:


http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Gas-Alarm-863-Dual-Sensor-Alerts-CO-LPG-Knockout-Gas-Motorhome-12v-230v-/290866656087?pt=UK_Campervan_Caravan_Accessories&hash=item43b900f357http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Gas-alarm-Ga-617-Natural-propane-and-butane-gas-Mains-or-12-Volt-/251241532547?pt=UK_Campervan_Caravan_Accessories&hash=item3a7f298c83



Looks good have u release some gas and tested it?
Title: Re: How safe is your gas?
Post by: Dave Willis on March 20, 2013, 04:44:47 pm
I'm amazed we are still allowed to pour petrol into our cars with no training or certificates whatsoever.
Title: Re: How safe is your gas?
Post by: richard jagger on March 20, 2013, 05:10:10 pm
Yes |I have tested my alarm. What one needs to bare in mind gas will flow to the lowest area in the van so fit it there. I also have my gas boiler at the sliding door so leaks will go outside and I close the boilers valves switch off and close the tap on the bottle when I put the pole into my van. That`s my practice. If in bought one can have a floor vent in the lowest of the van for the lost gas to escape. I thing one just needs to develop a few good practices LIKE CHECKING YOU GAS HOSE AND boiler for loose hoses etc,
Title: Re: How safe is your gas?
Post by: Dave Willis on March 20, 2013, 05:21:52 pm
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GAS-CO-LPG-DETECTOR-COMBINED-12V-230V-WITH-LCD-DISPLAY-/200905834475?pt=UK_Safety_Alarms&hash=item2ec6ebbfeb

Cheaper still.
Title: Re: How safe is your gas?
Post by: mattstanley on March 20, 2013, 05:38:15 pm
I'm amazed we are still allowed to pour petrol into our cars with no training or certificates whatsoever.

 ;D
Title: Re: How safe is your gas?
Post by: richard jagger on March 20, 2013, 05:48:07 pm
If some nervy folk had it there way we would not be able to go to the loo on our own. Come on Guys we are men not wimps just use your brains. We don`t need the nanny state.
No worries Mommy and Daddy will. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: How safe is your gas?
Post by: Frankybadboy on March 20, 2013, 05:57:39 pm
I'm amazed we are still allowed to pour petrol into our cars with no training or certificates whatsoever.
iam amazed that your aloud to touch anything ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: How safe is your gas?
Post by: Dave Willis on March 20, 2013, 08:17:33 pm
 :o
Title: Re: How safe is your gas?
Post by: Rob_Mac on March 20, 2013, 08:34:37 pm
I was travelling back from Streatham this morning and got in a taxi from the hotel, to get to the train station.

Literally moments in front of me a motorcyclist went into the back of a bus, shut the high street at Croydon.

In the same way that he didn't go out of the door this morning to have an accident, neither will you mean to have a gas explosion when it happens.

Using standard PTFE tape on gas is wrong, yellow PTFE or putty for the thread and it might not be financially the right thing to do when renewing policies but you wont be insured if you don't tell them.

I bet the people who haven't told their insurance that they are carrying gas aren't shy about coming on here and telling us how well they are doing.

I dare any one of you to tell your insurance that you are carrying gas and I guarantee that you wont be insured by tomorrow night!!!!

Good luck

Rob ;D
Title: Re: How safe is your gas?
Post by: richard jagger on March 20, 2013, 08:45:40 pm
Every plumber/ roofer carries gas, whats the big deal.Its not a bomb. There are really some wanting to make a mountain out of a mole hill. Do you even have a water heater? For suck fake.
Title: Re: How safe is your gas?
Post by: Rob_Mac on March 20, 2013, 08:51:57 pm
I don't have a heater but I have fitted out two camper vans, completely, when I told the insurance that they would be carrying gas they wouldn't insure them - so I think I know what I am talking about!

Now I'll ask you do you carry gas?

Does your insurance know??

You can put your head up your ar*e all you want and try and belittle me but you will end up looking like a moron - so carry on!!!

Rob ;D
Title: Re: How safe is your gas?
Post by: Dave Willis on March 20, 2013, 08:54:53 pm
Don't all camper vans carry gas?
Title: Re: How safe is your gas?
Post by: richard jagger on March 20, 2013, 08:56:04 pm
Yes to both.I know every thing of  I build a camper van maybe you phoned the wrong insurance company.End of.
Title: Re: How safe is your gas?
Post by: Rob_Mac on March 20, 2013, 08:57:51 pm
Self build dave is the problem - I don't know what the situation is for professionally put together.

Who's that with then - as I would like a price

Rob ;D
Title: Re: How safe is your gas?
Post by: Dave Willis on March 20, 2013, 09:05:00 pm
I use Onesure but they are a broker not an insurance company. I told them I was using a gas heater and they weren't bothered provided I didn't exceed three tonnes in total weight. I've also had two accidents in the last two years and nobody picked up on it. I dare say I might have been lucky and the salesperson on the phone may not have had a clue.
Title: Re: How safe is your gas?
Post by: home6442 on March 20, 2013, 11:09:41 pm
Mess with a gas boiler at home and someone gets hurt or killed its prison.
Bound to be the same with a D.I.Y. gas heater in a van.
No matter if you did a first class job installing it, the fact that your not qualified
would go against you in court.
Title: Re: How safe is your gas?
Post by: G Griffin on March 20, 2013, 11:18:34 pm
Don't take any chances, keep a canary in the van.
Title: Re: How safe is your gas?
Post by: R.C Property on March 20, 2013, 11:40:31 pm
Transporting cylinders in cars, vans, or in any enclosed vehicle is extremely dangerous, and should be avoided. Never transport flammable gases in the trunk or passenger compartment of a vehicle. Many persons disregard this warning every year, and there are many vehicle explosions as a result. We urge you to have the cylinders delivered in an appropriate vehicle.

LINK..
http://www.airgas.com/content/details.aspx?id=7000000000010

I don't use gas myself. Is it not extremely dangerous to have your boilers fitted to rear door's though? What would happen if you had a hard impact from the rear and sparks hit a ruptured pipe or joint on the unit. Would that be kaboom or am I missing summat?

Quote from flogas website about transporting gas in closed vans,

Carriage in Closed Vehicles

Flogas do not recommend the use of closed vehicles (such as vans) for transporting LPG cylinders.
If LPG cylinders are to be transported in closed vehicles the following requirements and restrictions should be applied:
If a MAXIMUM OF FOUR cylinders are to be transported:
Cylinders should be loaded in a single layer and secured to prevent movement;
The cylinders must be upright, with the valve at the top (the outlet connection should be fitted with a blanking cap or plug;
Flammable gas danger warning diamonds should be displayed on both sides and the rear of the vehicle;
If MORE THAN FOUR cylinders are to be transported:
All of the above apply and in addition;

The load compartment must have vents at the front and rear (or positions recommended by the vehicle manufacturer)  to   give a flow of air through the load compartment. The rear ventilation openings should be as low as possible and the total area of the ventilation (divided equally between the front and rear vents) must be a minimum of 2% of the area of the load compartment floor.
The maximum recommended net quantity of LPG (in cylinders) carried in a closed vehicle should not exceed 200 kg's.
Gas tight plugs must be fitted to all cylinder valves that do not have a secondary means of closure (FLT type cylinders have a secondary means of closure).
Cylinders should not remain in the vehicle whilst stationary for more than 2 hours, unless the ventilation is improved by opening all the load compartment doors etc.
If there is a smell of gas;
Do not move the vehicle until the source of the leakage has been found and the vehicle has been declared safe by a competent person.
Increase the load compartment ventilation by fully opening all doors and vents.
Do not turn on any electrical equipment.
The regulations governing the transport of dangerous goods vary according to what dangerous goods are being transported, how much is being transported and the gross weight of the vehicle.

http://www.flogas.co.uk/142/transport-of-lpg-cylinders
Title: Re: How safe is your gas?
Post by: R.C Property on March 20, 2013, 11:45:14 pm
Mess with a gas boiler at home and someone gets hurt or killed its prison.
Bound to be the same with a D.I.Y. gas heater in a van.
No matter if you did a first class job installing it, the fact that your not qualified
would go against you in court.


Your right about the home boilers.
But the portable gas heaters that most in the vas are fine to use unless u start opening it up and play about with it, its just like having a gas bbq, all you are doing is un screwing gas bottles and screwing them back on.
Title: Re: How safe is your gas?
Post by: A-W-C on March 20, 2013, 11:46:16 pm
Health and safety in this country is to the extreme we should all be wrapped up in cotton wool and bubble wrap and never have contact with anyone
Title: Re: How safe is your gas?
Post by: stuart mc on March 20, 2013, 11:48:13 pm
I used to be a HAZMAT driver, there is no problem driving containers around, but they are not supposed to be hooked up to the appliance it is meant for while driving, that goes for caravans and well anything really, so at the very least disconnect the gas every time you drive

and aye all you pointed out is true ronnie
Title: Re: How safe is your gas?
Post by: R.C Property on March 20, 2013, 11:49:17 pm
Health and safety in this country is to the extreme we should all be wrapped up in cotton wool and bubble wrap and never have contact with anyone

Yer, just don't get to close to the gas boiler, u might go up with the cotton wool or melt the plastic on u! Lol