Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: David lyddon on February 27, 2013, 09:25:12 pm
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I know you will all think me mad.
Been wfp 14 months and yes its safer and sometimes quicker.
wfp is driving me crazy theres always a problem with the kit
The expence and custies if given the choice i know prefare trad
and it really does do a better job.
Have been back on ladders 3 days due to faulty pump,and have quite enjoyed it
less hastle,proper exercise thinking of going back to ladders full time.
???
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welcome back,you know it makes sense
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I know you will all think me mad.
Been wfp 14 months and yes its safer and sometimes quicker.
wfp is driving me crazy theres always a problem with the kit
The expence and custies if given the choice i know prefare trad
and it really does do a better job.
Have been back on ladders 3 days due to faulty pump,and have quite enjoyed it
less hastle,proper exercise thinking of going back to ladders full time.
???
You are right that ladders and a bucket are less hassle - I did about 16 years with these tools and it was always fairly simple.
Just last week a personal friend, who had refused to go over to the poles as he didn't feel his round was worth the hassle, fell off his ladders and broke several limbs. He was only working on standard domestic work. He will be off work for months.
For the first few years I also really did not like all of the potential issues and the perceived complications. In fact for the first 6 months it never seemed any faster at all. After a few years though I learned what spares to carry at all times and how to make each job that little bit easier. After about 3 years of WFP working I realized that whatever the expense I could never go back.
For me it is not about hassle or expense it has always been about the safety issue. Life is dangerous enough as it is without climbing ladders which is still one of the most risky work-related tasks that anyone can do.
If you need any advice with specific equipment issues or techniques please feel free to drop me an email - alex@agardiner.co.uk
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Good luck with it , but for me im out !
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Alex has really nailed it in his post - kaving fallen 15ft i actively looked for a safer way to clean
and yes the 1st 6 months were a steep learning curve but it's more than paid for itself in terms of
safety and the ammount of work i can do in a day.
generally wfp and trad cant be split in how good they are, it's down to the operator i've seen loads of bad tradded windows and loads of superbly done trad - likewise with WFP but i will say when WFP goes wrong it's always a biggy!
and makes you look a complete numpty.
i disagree with people prefer trad - all they want is clean and claer windows if you have a positive mind set they buy into you and wfp
Darran
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Each to their own,i know wfp works for me and would never go back to ladders
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Each to their own,i know wfp works for me and would never go back to ladders
ditto 8)
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I looked at your previous posts you said you had a tds of 25 and were thinking of going van mount with a di. Why not give that a go see what you think?
You might prefer it to the trolley. I've got twin di's, van mount, no controller and an old car battery I had in the shed.
I don't have any issues with equipment as such
I haven't used a trolley but I reckon I'd find it a real pain to go back and keep filling up.
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my brothering law was trading in november and fell off the ladder he as smashed is sholder that bad he had to have metal plates put in they say he will never be able to use it again just try and stick in there
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I looked at your previous posts you said you had a tds of 25 and were thinking of going van mount with a di. Why not give that a go see what you think?
You might prefer it to the trolley. I've got twin di's, van mount, no controller and an old car battery I had in the shed.
I don't have any issues with equipment as such
I haven't used a trolley but I reckon I'd find it a real pain to go back and keep filling up.
+1
When I ditched the trolley & went van mount my life became soooooo much easier overnight. It doesn't suit every round,.. but its worth a try IMO.
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http://sunshine-cleaning.net/Whyweavoidladders.html
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Not a chance, I carry spare pump , controller and three of each
Fitting and a spare battery. Yes have issues very occasionally
But they never take long to sort definitely won't be going
Back to ladder.
Turn water up and rince twice will sort most Newbee problems
I've never had such a hastle free job .
Having said that nowt wrong with using ladders if careful
Good luck .
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I know you will all think me mad.
Been wfp 14 months and yes its safer and sometimes quicker.
wfp is driving me crazy theres always a problem with the kit
The expence and custies if given the choice i know prefare trad
and it really does do a better job.
Have been back on ladders 3 days due to faulty pump,and have quite enjoyed it
less hastle,proper exercise thinking of going back to ladders full time.
???
Show us a picture of your setup. I generally avoid commenting on these kinds of posts as the issue could just as easily be your setup as anything else and nothing to do with the kit.
WFP you should be pulling in £200 a day wherever you are in the country. Thats plenty to put some by for spare pumps, parts etc should they be needed.
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This by far the best thread I have seen that discusses WFP and trad choices.
Well done guys.
John
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I know you will all think me mad.
Been wfp 14 months and yes its safer and sometimes quicker.
wfp is driving me crazy theres always a problem with the kit
The expence and custies if given the choice i know prefare trad
and it really does do a better job.
Have been back on ladders 3 days due to faulty pump,and have quite enjoyed it
less hastle,proper exercise thinking of going back to ladders full time.
???
Show us a picture of your setup. I generally avoid commenting on these kinds of posts as the issue could just as easily be your setup as anything else and nothing to do with the kit.
WFP you should be pulling in £200 a day wherever you are in the country. Thats plenty to put some by for spare pumps, parts etc should they be needed.
I have to agree with Mr B. If the setup is right and attitude toward earning is good then the £'s will come in. You can buy a small spare pump for £40 to keep you earning. As for technique you could do with spending time with someone for a day.
As for the customers, if you feel the job done is second rate it will be a difficult sell.
Call me you want a chat.
Stuart
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Hi David
I personally think that WFP does a better job, if done properly. But I know what you mean, lots of customers prefer trad, I think all of us have lost custies either trad to WFP or WFP to trad. Why not keep the trolly for ups, no point risking your neck to earn a living. I've only been on the glass 17 years not as long as you but I've fallen twice over the years, I said a third time and I'm giving up. Don't get rid of the gear just yet, the longer you WFP the faster and better you get.
Simon.
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This by far the best thread I have seen that discusses WFP and trad choices.
Well done guys.
John
Correct.
Refreshing to see comments without ridiculing or people being sensitive about ways of cleaning windows.
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That's because he's a grown up Griff.
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I dont really see there is much to go wrong, apart from a pump maybe a controller but those can always be by passed. and just keep a spare one of them and few hose bits its all u need. keep it simple.
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Is there a point to make that regardless of prefered technique, Wfp is the future? Modern houses now all have UPVC frames none now a days are being built with lead are they?! WFP lends its self nicely to upvc.
I expect there was the same out cry when people stopped using newspaper and vinegar and used a shamee lol. Not sure if i got that in the correct window cleaning timeline of events, i wasnt there, but you get the point.
When i switched, still 20% trad now. People saw it as a good thing as i was "investing" in my business and was more likely to stick at it. Thats what my custies want someone half decent and reliable. Already had someone today say cleaned them myself, wasnt angry at me, just said i knew cos of snow, rain etc youd be a bit late, so im not reliable all the time :P and there more i feel unreliabliity in WF as eqp breaks and water freezes etc but on the whole i would say its faster, safer and more convienient. Any older lot have any shoulder/arm problems from the repeat squeege action? infact poling actually gets my neck so that arguement probably isnt valid for pro WF, as I feel worse after a day!!
Anyway the point im making, is i dont think it will be down to preference it think it will come down to law and insurance.
Insurance quotes will for trad go up and up and up and may altogether ban ladders in a legal sense, who knows?
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I have problems with kit etc after 5yrs of wfp and their is no way I would go back to ladders
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Being able to offer both is the best way in my opinion. Safety for wfp and it does do a better job on certain windows but it doesn't hurt to do some trad work because it keeps customers happy, and yes a lot do prefer it.
I know a lot don't like doing wfp tops/trad bottoms but it usually keeps the customers from moaning.
I enjoy working trad more also.
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Even if you didn't have back ups and lost a few days of work it would be more than covered by the extra you will earn as WFP if you stick with it. I'm in my third week of WFP from being trad for only two years. Not a chance I would ever go back if just for the safety aspect. I don't have to turn custom away anymore because they have a three storey house. I don't have to say "can't do that window, it's inaccessible". I don't turn down leaded houses anymore because they're so knackering. It doesn't take me half a day to do first cleans when doing frames, and all round I feel so much more professional. I am part-time and have 100 houses. Only one bloke was skeptical about the change over so I told him that I would still do it WFP the first time and if he wasn't happy with the results I would come back and correct it trad. He's had his frames scrubbed with vents sorted too, and I haven't heard a word from him. The younger generation (50s and under) don't really care how you do it as long as they can see through them. It's the oldies that want spit and polish and yeah they're the best payers and seem to be home 24/7 but, trying not to be too morbid, how much longer will they be around? You'll probably go the rest of your life trad and never fall and injure yourself seriously but if you do it could cost you big. H&S has gone too far with people getting fanatical about it, so much so that you'd never get out of bed in the morning, but if you don't need to be taking risks then why bother?
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I could never go back to ladders, there would't be enough time in the day to do my work off a ladder
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A few years ago when I was in partnership with a mate he had a fall and broke his back, it wasn't the worst brake but he was off work for six months.
Me and the three lads we had working for us worked our socks off to keep up.
When he came back to work he still went up ladders but you could see how nervous he got sometimes.
Within a few months we decided to shell out and set both vans up for wfp.
Within six more months we were all up to speed and needed more work, everyone loved using the poles, but most of us missed cleaning trad at some point during the first few months of switching
We both still trad certain jobs and insides, but nothing off a ladder
Bottom line for me is, you can't fall off a pole
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I know you will all think me mad.
Been wfp 14 months and yes its safer and sometimes quicker.
wfp is driving me crazy theres always a problem with the kit
The expence and custies if given the choice i know prefare trad
and it really does do a better job.
Have been back on ladders 3 days due to faulty pump,and have quite enjoyed it
less hastle,proper exercise thinking of going back to ladders full time.
???
Why not try working with other window cleaners for a day and seeing what kit they have and what issues they have with it?
It could just be your kit needs tweaking (or maybe a slightly different setup) to get the best out of it?
I think you get good results with both trad and wfp and I use both methods depending on what i'm doing. I always check my work and I never get complaints (did once, but did it in heavy rain for a tenancy inspection the next morning).
I don't think custys prefer trad or wfp, they just want clean windows...imo. I always take the time to explain to new custys how the system works and make sure there is a fairly dry window by the end of a first clean so they can inspect it and see how the glass is drying.
I hate ladders now (not climbing up them) but getting them out the van!
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That's because he's a grown up Griff.
That is true.
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i could never go back.ive been WFP for nearly 3 years now and im making more money than ever in a shorter space of time, nice and safe from the ground.
ive also picked up lots of good work in the last 3 years BECAUSE i use the pole system!!
i just dont understand this attitude that customers prefer trad!i do trad some work but its mainly ground floor windows.
ive never had it so good!long may it continue!! :D :D :D :D
seriously WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO CLIMB A LADDER TO CLEAN EVERY UPPER WINDOW ON YOUR ROUND WHEN YOU CAN POLE IT FROM THE GROUND!!
the mind boggles!! ??? ???
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if we aint carefull this could turn in to another trad v wfp ;D
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WFP you should be pulling in £200 a day wherever you are in the country. Thats plenty to put some by for spare pumps, parts etc should they be needed.
thats crap, that gives new starters the wrong idea & expectations, a lot may well do that amount but not round my way if your mostly domestic
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Never go back - never surrender
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Trolly set ups are letting the wfp way of cleaning down there's a husband and wife team in st,annes lancs running one trolly with 2 feed pipes cleaning at 30 on the controller not rinsing the windows properly
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Trolly set ups are letting the wfp way of cleaning down there's a husband and wife team in st,annes lancs running one trolly with 2 feed pipes cleaning at 30 on the controller not rinsing the windows properly
Trolley set ups can do just as good a job for the customer; it is just that they are not generally the most efficient way for a window cleaner to operate.
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Trolly set ups are letting the wfp way of cleaning down there's a husband and wife team in st,annes lancs running one trolly with 2 feed pipes cleaning at 30 on the controller not rinsing the windows properly
Nothing wrong with trolley system if that's what works best for you
A poor operator can make any system look bad
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WFP you should be pulling in £200 a day wherever you are in the country. Thats plenty to put some by for spare pumps, parts etc should they be needed.
thats crap, that gives new starters the wrong idea & expectations, a lot may well do that amount but not round my way if your mostly domestic
I live in Plymouth mate, not the best paying area of the country, and I can pull in £200 easily enough in a day. Where do you live??????
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I can understand fully someone not getting on with wfp.
Whether or not that's a good reason to go back to ladders and trad, dunno?
When I was trad all I had in the back of the van was a few bits. Now though, it's all crammed in.
Life was very simple, you knew how long each job took and you knew the customer would be always happy with the result. Apart from the van, the overheads were almost nothing or very little and there was nothing to go wrong with the equipment.
A mop, squeegee, bucket of water and a ladder. Simple and straight forwards.
On the question of accidents using ladders, if they are used properly, they shouldn't be a risk. The risk comes usually when in some way they are not used in the correct way. Ladders with people on them don't just fall over or slip by magic.
Having said that, the less I go up a ladder the happier I am because it's always there at the back of my mind that one day.....
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I think what you can gather from the above posts is that wfp can be made to work, but it needs preparation, both of yourself and your equipment. A properly set up system will not give you any problems. In fact, after 5 years I'm still on my first pump and controller, even though I now have a GrippaMax system/DIY install. Ask lots of questions and think, sometimes out of the box. Learn simple troubleshooting, step by step isolating the problem. It's not rocket science, but there is some knowledge involved. Carry some basic tools, and minor spares.
Same for the technique, it can work, and will work very well. It's all in the preparation and details.
Yes, you can do a good job with traditional tools, but the safety aspect is a thorn in the side. It's a very inefficient way of cleaning windows. The time you take to get up and down your ladder and moving it has got nothing to do with cleaning windows. With a pole you can practically keep cleaning windows, bar the occasional niggles of laying out the hose.
It will work, do the research, set it up properly, and train yourself and your customers. Hang in there.
I would slightly disagree with the comments on trolleys. A trolley setup will not get you the best start in wfp.
For one, you will always skimp on water, whilst this is exactly where you need the water the most, to get a proper flow, to be fast, and to clean efficiently.
More over, it's a hateful thing to keep lifting a dead weight out of the van, and rolling it around you, barrels and all. Refill every 10 minutes or less.
Van mounted system every time, it can be done on the cheap. A good trad window cleaner should earn enough money to save up for a basic van and system. Dump the trolley. If you have an awkward job that needs a trolley and backpack, you are better off without the job.
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Tim - you make some good points.
I think sometimes when going over to wfp that lack of confidence by the window cleaner using wfp comes across to the customer in a subtle way.
Mix that with a set up that is awkward and slow to use?
Using a pole system should always be much, much faster than doing the job trad especially for the upstairs windows.
If it's not, then the jobs being done wrong or the equipment is wrong for the job. I used a backpack for every job for about 2 weeks before deciding it was the wrong set up when I first went over to wfp many moons ago.
I think it's a mix of lack of confidence in wfp and the wrong set up. I could be wrong but I've been there myself.
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WFP you should be pulling in £200 a day wherever you are in the country. Thats plenty to put some by for spare pumps, parts etc should they be needed.
thats crap, that gives new starters the wrong idea & expectations, a lot may well do that amount but not round my way if your mostly domestic
I live in Plymouth mate, not the best paying area of the country, and I can pull in £200 easily enough in a day. Where do you live??????
Got to agree with kybl £200 per day is a lot where I live too.
I've never done that much.
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I live in Plymouth mate, not the best paying area of the country, and I can pull in £200 easily enough in a day. Where do you live??????
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i live in the lake district & work mostly round kendal & a few villages, its frustrating cos there's a lot of money up here( a lot of people retire or have 2nd homes up here) but there are still a lot of low wages. my old estate has 4 wc living on it & another 4 that work up there. i'm the most expensive at £6 for 3 bed & £5 for 2, out in the villages you can charge decent prices but there are a lot of windies so there are no big runs its all 1's & 2's . 3 or 4 is a good run
i have done over 200 but it was a 9hr day & i had 1 £66 job that took 1hr 20 min that was a camp site thats now been sold & broken up. if i earn over £100 a day( and i normally do ) i'm still on a lot more than a lot of people i know eg; my mate is a groundwork ganger & he needs overtime to take home £350
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WFP has it's ups and downs......
not as much as ladders though.
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I live in Plymouth mate, not the best paying area of the country, and I can pull in £200 easily enough in a day. Where do you live??????
i live in the lake district & work mostly round kendal & a few villages, its frustrating cos there's a lot of money up here( a lot of people retire or have 2nd homes up here) but there are still a lot of low wages. my old estate has 4 wc living on it & another 4 that work up there. i'm the most expensive at £6 for 3 bed & £5 for 2, out in the villages you can charge decent prices but there are a lot of windies so there are no big runs its all 1's & 2's . 3 or 4 is a good run
i have done over 200 but it was a 9hr day & i had 1 £66 job that took 1hr 20 min that was a camp site thats now been sold & broken up. if i earn over £100 a day( and i normally do ) i'm still on a lot more than a lot of people i know eg; my mate is a groundwork ganger & he needs overtime to take home £350
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I holiday in the Lakes usually once a year and am amazed at the number of dirty windows, esp in the holiday homes. I would target these properties and work on a 4 yearly package to keep on top of them. The price could be a premium one and could include facia and gutters etc.
The problem you have is that most places are miles from anywhere.
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I had a hell of a time changing to wfp, so much so that i went back to ladders,
after scrubbing frames by hand before changing, then rinsnig and rinsing and more f...cking rinsing
then moaning bloody custies saying "i prefer the way you used too do it, makes alot of mess, plus there was
some runs from your thingy" >:( >:( loss of earnings, god it was horrible, so went back to ladders,
and it did seem more easy, until i got to the big lead lite calls, and my dangerous calls, (High stuff)
and after a while thought ive done all the hard stuff switching over, i'll give it another go, should get bit easier
now,
ladder work is tiring, so went back and persevered, and over time you get to know what work best for you,
for me its the back pack, hoses...=....stress, and worry (public tripping)
back packs on the property with me, like my ladders were,. + i dont feel so nackered now.
stick with it john.
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wfp is killing the game
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I've had only a couple of complaints since swapping over. I didn't tell any custies about it either I just turned up and cleaned. If they asked I explained but on the whole they let me get on with it. ;D
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I know you will all think me mad.
Been wfp 14 months and yes its safer and sometimes quicker.
wfp is driving me crazy theres always a problem with the kit
The expence and custies if given the choice i know prefare trad
and it really does do a better job.
Have been back on ladders 3 days due to faulty pump,and have quite enjoyed it
less hastle,proper exercise thinking of going back to ladders full time.
???
what price value do you put on your life David?
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Trolly set ups are letting the wfp way of cleaning down there's a husband and wife team in st,annes lancs running one trolly with 2 feed pipes cleaning at 30 on the controller not rinsing the windows properly
Like Bonnie& Clyde wfp'ers?
I bet loads of of wc'ers all over the country have lost work because of these two.
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Trolly set ups are letting the wfp way of cleaning down there's a husband and wife team in st,annes lancs running one trolly with 2 feed pipes cleaning at 30 on the controller not rinsing the windows properly
Like Bonnie& Clyde wfp'ers?
I bet loads of of wc'ers all over the country have lost work because of these two.
famous for bein sh/t , u cant buy that sort of fame
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Have just read this post for the first time this morning.
It started well and then for some reason starts moving over to earnings. Yes we all want to earn a nice living but to keep on stating how much, is pointless as we all work different, full time, part time extra job whatever and in different areas of the country or world!
Daily earnings, yes we have great ones, but not every day.
As for going back to ladders your thinking what 90% of polers have thought at sometime or other, and as some chaps have said before, window cleaning can be distressing at times. If you can manage to get your equipment sorted out and technique right then meet yourself halfway and as previously suggested pole the tops and trad everything else, see how that goes, it might be a good compromise for you.
Good luck
Steve
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I wouldn't go back to trad and cant understand why anyone
would trad bottoms and wfp tops just think wfp far quicker
and safer. (unless water an issue)
Think discussing daily earnings ect is a good thing as it lets us
know if we are all at the same daily earnings obviously its not just
how much but if you have the same size of run same sort of equipment
you should be making roughly the same no matter where in the country you are yes/no?
I am in scotland so I know im the lower end price scale but i have a full run
so know £200 is an easily achievable target for one man full time wfp.
My point is if you can only make £100 in the same circumstances
and you want to increase earnings you can with help and advice.
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I made the mistake of going WFP for the short term benefits. I had mine 6 months then sold but now I know I missed a great opportunity.
I will be going back to WFP this summer but will be using it as a tool rather than going 100% WFP.
The opportunities I could have had cleaning houses I could not safely do off ladders is countless.
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I live in Plymouth mate, not the best paying area of the country, and I can pull in £200 easily enough in a day. Where do you live??????
i live in the lake district & work mostly round kendal & a few villages, its frustrating cos there's a lot of money up here( a lot of people retire or have 2nd homes up here) but there are still a lot of low wages. my old estate has 4 wc living on it & another 4 that work up there. i'm the most expensive at £6 for 3 bed & £5 for 2, out in the villages you can charge decent prices but there are a lot of windies so there are no big runs its all 1's & 2's . 3 or 4 is a good run
i have done over 200 but it was a 9hr day & i had 1 £66 job that took 1hr 20 min that was a camp site thats now been sold & broken up. if i earn over £100 a day( and i normally do ) i'm still on a lot more than a lot of people i know eg; my mate is a groundwork ganger & he needs overtime to take
Do you know the blackburns? Paul, mark and Kerry?
They used to work and live in Kendal as wc.
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Do you know the blackburns? Paul, mark and Kerry?
They used to work and live in Kendal as wc.
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i know 2 lads who work together, i think they're from blackburn, seen them with a huge tank on wheels for wfp only spoken a couple of times though
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I was on the ladders for 17 years until one day I was half way down a ladder and my knee clicked! Very painful to get to ground level but could have been worse!
So I looked at alternatives etc then one day came across Peters forum. Had a look at posts there for a few months before deciding to invest in wfp. That was 6 years ago I couldn't really see myself going back at all!