Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: CleanClear on February 26, 2013, 08:46:32 pm
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I was interested in the recent thread..do diy controllers work? So i done a little bit of research (AKA Googling!!).
Come up with this.......http://r.ebay.com/rhIAD7
I ordered one, i was a little suprised when Ronnie b said this....http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=165652.msg1391813#msg1391813
as i thought if they won't work with a pressure switch then i've wasted my money. The one Ronnie bought was a PWM controller too, so they should all work the same?
As far as i can find out PWM means pulse wave modulation, which means the controller sends the current through as stop/start/stop/start/stop/start only its so fast that the motor appears to run smooth. Quicker stop starts means faster pump speed, slower stop starts means slower pump speeds. I read somewhere that some controllers can operate by reducing the voltage to the pump which is no good for the pump. Anycase thats what the PWM means.
Had some pump/controller wiring go faulty so decided whilst stripping the wiring out would be an opportunity to test this controller out. Here it is in action...........
http://youtu.be/d5vVXiSCJmg
http://youtu.be/zl--vbiIE8I
Seems to be fine, i was going to wait a week to see if we had any problems with it. But can't be bothered to wait. So its not really a DIY controller, its just a very cheap one.
If anyones an expert on electrics and controllers i'll welcome any corrections to what i've said. If you're a wannabe DIY'er who needs help with it i can't help you other that what i've written above so get on with it !!!
Spent about a grand on controllers in last couple of years, i can't forsee that happening again!!!!
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Mike did you get your Xmas tips in cake
And mince pies?
I find it hard to believe that's your belly in YouTube :o
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I was interested in the recent thread..do diy controllers work? So i done a little bit of research (AKA Googling!!).
Come up with this.......http://r.ebay.com/rhIAD7
I ordered one, i was a little suprised when Ronnie b said this....http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=165652.msg1391813#msg1391813
as i thought if they won't work with a pressure switch then i've wasted my money. The one Ronnie bought was a PWM controller too, so they should all work the same?
As far as i can find out PWM means pulse wave modulation, which means the controller sends the current through as stop/start/stop/start/stop/start only its so fast that the motor appears to run smooth. Quicker stop starts means faster pump speed, slower stop starts means slower pump speeds. I read somewhere that some controllers can operate by reducing the voltage to the pump which is no good for the pump. Anycase thats what the PWM means.
Had some pump/controller wiring go faulty so decided whilst stripping the wiring out would be an opportunity to test this controller out. Here it is in action...........
http://youtu.be/d5vVXiSCJmg
http://youtu.be/zl--vbiIE8I
Seems to be fine, i was going to wait a week to see if we had any problems with it. But can't be bothered to wait. So its not really a DIY controller, its just a very cheap one.
If anyones an expert on electrics and controllers i'll welcome any corrections to what i've said. If you're a wannabe DIY'er who needs help with it i can't help you other that what i've written above so get on with it !!!
Spent about a grand on controllers in last couple of years, i can't forsee that happening again!!!!
Where exactly does the pressure switch fit in the wiring diagram?
The reason for asking is that controller is wired up the the negative/neutral side of the motor. Its an old 'trick' that reduces the contact flash on switch off and switch on. I did ask Gold once why he didn't wire his Shurflo pump pressure switch through the neutral rather than through the positive supply as it is now.
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Where exactly does the pressure switch fit in the wiring diagram?
The reason for asking is that controller is wired up the the negative/neutral side of the motor. Its an old 'trick' that reduces the contact flash on switch off and switch on. I did ask Gold once why he didn't wire his Shurflo pump pressure switch through the neutral rather than through the positive supply as it is now.
Every pump i've seen the pressure switch is just a break point in the live feed. So you still only get a positive and negative coming out of the pump, red and black. If you want to bypass the pressure switch then you simply remove the red leads either side of it and join them together. I've only a basic grasp of DC current, being an ex mechanic and no idea of electrics really so i'm unsure what you mean by wiring the pressure switch to the negative, although i can try and guess. I did think Ronnie may have some wiring wrong, that was just a thought though so i didn't want to assume or upset Ronnie !!! But in any case, wired exactly as per the diagram it works fine and indeed the pump pressure switch does kick in as it should and stop it.
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Just to re cap, black battery lead goes to black controller lead, red battery lead goes to controller and is shared direct to the red lead (positive) to the pump. Black lead from pump goes to the other wire on the controller (its fused). Thats all i can tell you.
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Mike did you get your Xmas tips in cake
And mince pies?
I find it hard to believe that's your belly in YouTube :o
;D ;D
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Probably a silly question but normally from a flow controller, you have 2 wires to be connected to the pump and 2 wires to the battery. Yours have only 3 wires,how do you? thanks
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I can't get my head round why it would not work for ronnie either to be honest, god knows I think I will need to buy one to find out, not that I want one
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Just to re cap, black battery lead goes to black controller lead, red battery lead goes to controller and is shared direct to the red lead (positive) to the pump. Black lead from pump goes to the other wire on the controller (its fused). Thats all i can tell you.
Shurflo aways put the pressure switch on the red wire which is the supply to the motor. This is best practise as the motor isn't 'live' when the current is switched off. If they wired the red directly into the pump and put the black wire through the pressure switch, this would reduce the wear on the microswitch contacts as the windings in the motor 'dampens' the current. However, the motor remains live even when the switch is off. I personally don't have a problem with this on 12vdc (230v is a totally different kettle of fish).
If you wired the pressure switch though the neutral before the controller (either before or after the fuse), then there would be no issue and everything would work fine. My gut feel is that you have a + supply from the battery to which you have then connected the red wire from the controller. After that join should be the pressure switch and then the motor.
If Ronnie has the pressure switch wired into the red wire from the controller but before the + wire from the battery, the pump will never switch off from what I can see, even with the pressure switch working correctly.
Hence the request to clarify exactly where you have the pressure switch in the diagram.
Cheers
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I can't get my head round why it would not work for ronnie either to be honest, god knows I think I will need to buy one to find out, not that I want one
;D ;D ;D That had crossed my mind as well. Tosh got involved in the previous thread and added to the confusion which didn't help. ;)
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My gut feel is that you have a + supply from the battery to which you have then connected the red wire from the controller. After that join should be the pressure switch and then the motor.
Spot on.
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My gut feel is that you have a + supply from the battery to which you have then connected the red wire from the controller. After that join should be the pressure switch and then the motor.
Spot on.
Thanks
Either Ronnie has wired his up incorrectly, or his pressure switch is faulty ie contacts welded together.
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Good to see you dont show your CRB in the video Mike, as Colin says though your certainly filling out well mate, packing in smoking has done wonders for your appertite haha
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My gut feel is that you have a + supply from the battery to which you have then connected the red wire from the controller. After that join should be the pressure switch and then the motor.
Spot on.
I was thinking backwards, but I agree with this, what I mean I was thinking, live from motor to pressure switch, then live to controller from the pressure switch, then live to battery, the negative goes from pump/motor to controller to battery, have I got it right?
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My gut feel is that you have a + supply from the battery to which you have then connected the red wire from the controller. After that join should be the pressure switch and then the motor.
Spot on.
Thanks
Either Ronnie has wired his up incorrectly, or his pressure switch is faulty ie contacts welded together.
his switch is fine, he took the controller out the equation and it worked
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his switch is fine, he took the controller out the equation and it worked
I know what you say is right, but it doesn't make any sense?
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his switch is fine, he took the controller out the equation and it worked
I know what you say is right, but it doesn't make any sense?
I know, it confused me, it must be wired wrong, RONNIE send me your controller and I will try it :D if it works I will send it back and tell you how to do it
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so why 3 wires on this flow controller and not 4?
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so why 3 wires on this flow controller and not 4?
that is confusing me as well, looking at the diagram, that seems to point to missing the pressure switch altogether and relying on manually turning it off at controller
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Look this is easy, don't complicate it worrying about pressure switches, negative feeds and all sorts of other stuff. Your pump has two wires a red and a black. Shove the red to the battery, take a spur off the red to the red on the controller. Put your black controller wire to the negative (black) battery terminal. That leaves you a black wire coming off your pump unatatched, and a yellow/blue wire coming off your controller, unatatched. Join them up. Job done.
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Look this is easy, don't complicate it worrying about pressure switches, negative feeds and all sorts of other stuff. Your pump has two wires a red and a black. Shove the red to the battery, take a spur off the red to the red on the controller. Put your black controller wire to the negative (black) battery terminal. That leaves you a black wire coming off your pump unatatched, and a yellow/blue wire coming off your controller, unatatched. Join them up. Job done.
yes that is understood, but that means the pressure switch is bypassed and ronnie could be correct, in the vid's you turned the water off by turning the controller, not using a tap on the pole, or any other of means of stopping water, and that is what ronnie was trying to achieve, if you work like some folk do, we turn water off at the pole and either the controller or the pressure switch shuts down the pump, your set up seems to do neither, that is where the confusion lies
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Look this is easy, don't complicate it worrying about pressure switches, negative feeds and all sorts of other stuff. Your pump has two wires a red and a black. Shove the red to the battery, take a spur off the red to the red on the controller. Put your black controller wire to the negative (black) battery terminal. That leaves you a black wire coming off your pump unatatched, and a yellow/blue wire coming off your controller, unatatched. Join them up. Job done.
yes that is understood, but that means the pressure switch is bypassed and ronnie could be correct, in the vid's you turned the water off by turning the controller, not using a tap on the pole, or any other of means of stopping water, and that is what ronnie was trying to achieve, if you work like some folk do, we turn water off at the pole and either the controller or the pressure switch shuts down the pump, your set up seems to do neither, that is where the confusion lies
No the video is not clear then, i thought it was. I turn the tap off and the pump stops. I don;t interfere with the pressure switch. Every pump i've seen has a wired in pressure switch , also has two wires coming off it, black and red. Just connect to the black and red wires, do not interfere with or disconnect the pressure switch.
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Look this is easy, don't complicate it worrying about pressure switches, negative feeds and all sorts of other stuff. Your pump has two wires a red and a black. Shove the red to the battery, take a spur off the red to the red on the controller. Put your black controller wire to the negative (black) battery terminal. That leaves you a black wire coming off your pump unatatched, and a yellow/blue wire coming off your controller, unatatched. Join them up. Job done.
yes that is understood, but that means the pressure switch is bypassed and ronnie could be correct, in the vid's you turned the water off by turning the controller, not using a tap on the pole, or any other of means of stopping water, and that is what ronnie was trying to achieve, if you work like some folk do, we turn water off at the pole and either the controller or the pressure switch shuts down the pump, your set up seems to do neither, that is where the confusion lies
No the video is not clear then, i thought it was. I turn the tap off and the pump stops. I don;t interfere with the pressure switch. Every pump i've seen has a wired in pressure switch , also has two wires coming off it, black and red. Just connect to the black and red wires, do not interfere with or disconnect the pressure switch.
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sorry meant to say thank, I think I get it :D
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sorry meant to say thank, I think I get it :D
i don't lol, can you explain more please ;)
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Think i'll knock them up all ready to go for £30 a pop, with big instructions i.e black battery wire, red battery wire, red pump wire, black wire on your mobile to make it remote !! And complete with a free litre of magica one go go and a blank CRB all ready to fill in !!!! ;D
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The voltage regulator I have and use and have done for over 2 years now has a + and - input, and a + and - output. So I connected it between the battery and the pump.
It's works flawlessly and the pressure switch on the pump works as well.
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Look this is easy, don't complicate it worrying about pressure switches, negative feeds and all sorts of other stuff. Your pump has two wires a red and a black. Shove the red to the battery, take a spur off the red to the red on the controller. Put your black controller wire to the negative (black) battery terminal. That leaves you a black wire coming off your pump unatatched, and a yellow/blue wire coming off your controller, unatatched. Join them up. Job done.
My controller has four bloody wires here, it's confusing the hell out of me. + and - to pump, and + and - to power.
Doing my tits in. The red on the pump connects to the pressure switch according to the vid Tosh put up, so I have to interfere with the pressure switch to join it up to the battery, this is when it stops working and does not kick in.
Has anyone got a simple wire diagram for a 4 wire controller? Before I launch the basta into orbit.
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Look this is easy, don't complicate it worrying about pressure switches, negative feeds and all sorts of other stuff. Your pump has two wires a red and a black. Shove the red to the battery, take a spur off the red to the red on the controller. Put your black controller wire to the negative (black) battery terminal. That leaves you a black wire coming off your pump unatatched, and a yellow/blue wire coming off your controller, unatatched. Join them up. Job done.
My controller has four bloody wires here, it's confusing the hell out of me. + and - to pump, and + and - to power.
Doing my tits in. The red on the pump connects to the pressure switch according to the vid Tosh put up, so I have to interfere with the pressure switch to join it up to the battery, this is when it stops working and does not kick in.
Has anyone got a simple wire diagram for a 4 wire controller? Before I launch the basta into orbit.
Ronnie
Yours is different to Cleancare with having 4 wires.
Let me get this right.
If you have + and - to battery and + and - to pump then the pump runs and you can reduce the motors speed hence the flow rate but the pump won't switch off when you close the tap.
If you disconnect the controller and use the pressure switch only, the pump goes like made but when you turn your tap off the pump switches off.
If I have got this right, then your pressure switch on the pump should be fitted between your controller to the pump on the + wire. So your + wire from the controller goes to your pressure switch and the other wire from your pressure switch goes to the motor.
Another thought. The Maplin replacement microswitch for the Shurflo pump has 3 spade contacts. The original has only 2 as the middle spade contact is removed.
If the pressure switch is working then the pressure switch will cut the power to the motor when the pressure builds up. The motor can't run without power.
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If I have got this right, then your pressure switch on the pump should be fitted between your controller to the pump on the + wire. So your + wire from the controller goes to your pressure switch and the other wire from your pressure switch goes to the motor.
I have done that in my van so you must be right ;)
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Look this is easy, don't complicate it worrying about pressure switches, negative feeds and all sorts of other stuff. Your pump has two wires a red and a black. Shove the red to the battery, take a spur off the red to the red on the controller. Put your black controller wire to the negative (black) battery terminal. That leaves you a black wire coming off your pump unatatched, and a yellow/blue wire coming off your controller, unatatched. Join them up. Job done.
My controller has four bloody wires here, it's confusing the hell out of me. + and - to pump, and + and - to power.
Doing my tits in. The red on the pump connects to the pressure switch according to the vid Tosh put up, so I have to interfere with the pressure switch to join it up to the battery, this is when it stops working and does not kick in.
Has anyone got a simple wire diagram for a 4 wire controller? Before I launch the basta into orbit.
Ronnie
Yours is different to Cleancare with having 4 wires.
Let me get this right.
If you have + and - to battery and + and - to pump then the pump runs and you can reduce the motors speed hence the flow rate but the pump won't switch off when you close the tap.
If you disconnect the controller and use the pressure switch only, the pump goes like made but when you turn your tap off the pump switches off.
If I have got this right, then your pressure switch on the pump should be fitted between your controller to the pump on the + wire. So your + wire from the controller goes to your pressure switch and the other wire from your pressure switch goes to the motor.
Another thought. The Maplin replacement microswitch for the Shurflo pump has 3 spade contacts. The original has only 2 as the middle spade contact is removed.
If the pressure switch is working then the pressure switch will cut the power to the motor when the pressure builds up. The motor can't run without power.
Thank's for trying to help Spruce.
When you say so your + wire from the controller goes to your pressure switch, which one? It has 2 plus wires, one marked power and one marked motor, and when you say pressure switch, also which one? it has two spades. But that would leave a + and - wire still on the controller, where do they go?
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from the controller:one + and - to battery and one + and - to pump, very easy ;)
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+ wire(red) from the pump to the pressure switch
from the pressure switch(second spade) to the + wire of the controller
black wire from the controller to the black wire of the pump
from the controller, connect the others + and- to the battery
done! :D
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What is + and - on the pump?
I have one red wire from back of pump going into the pressure spade, from the other spade I have a wire going into the controller marked + motor. I have another wire from the controller marked+ power going to the battery marked+.
I have a black wire from the back of pump going to the battery marked -. This leaves the controller with a + and - connection point not being used. I have blown 5 fuses so far doing it this way?
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That is how I have it, keeps blowing fuses soon as I connect to battery
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That is how I have it, keeps blowing fuses soon as I connect to battery
no because you connect the black wire from the pump to the battery and should be connected to the controller
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I have one red wire from back of pump going into the pressure spade, from the other spade I have a wire going into the controller marked + motor. I have another wire from the controller marked+ power going to the battery marked+.
that is right
after that you should have 2 blacks wire from the controller and 1 black wire from the pump left? am i right?
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any help Ronnie?
http://www.springltd.co/upload/Basic%20Controller%20-%20Quick%20Start%20Page%202.pdf
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Got it working now, cheers Ben and Spruce, many thank's. It may have been my fault in not understanding electrics too well but it seem's to be as it should now following that 4 wire description you both gave.
The pressure switch takes longer to come on once I turn the tap off, is this normal?
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Ronnie,don't forget to fit the fuse once all connections are made, NOT BEFORE!!!
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Right, just to confirm. These wee cheap controller's really do work a treat, someone somewhere is boxing these in a plastic case and making a killing out of us.
Even if you only get a few month's out of it, at £6 you can't go wrong.
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good stuff ronnie, been out all day or I think I would have phoned you reading the replies on here, I can see clear as day on how it should be done in my head ;D
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Does this switch on/off as well?
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Got it working now, cheers Ben and Spruce, many thank's. It may have been my fault in not understanding electrics too well but it seem's to be as it should now following that 4 wire description you both gave.
The pressure switch takes longer to come on once I turn the tap off, is this normal?
No - its Tosh's fault - blame him ;D
Glad you got it working.
The pump will take longer to reach the cutoff pressure as you have reduced the motor speed and it won't be pumping as much water.
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Right, just to confirm. These wee cheap controller's really do work a treat, someone somewhere is boxing these in a plastic case and making a killing out of us.
Even if you only get a few month's out of it, at £6 you can't go wrong.
Good one. The one i got is only a few quid more and includes the box, but yeah them little motor controllers are great.
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Does this switch on/off as well?
You have to add your own off /on switch, even I could do that. I used an old switch from an old electric guitar.
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Does this switch on/off as well?
You have to add your own off /on switch, even I could do that. I used an old switch from an old electric guitar.
The one i linked to does switch off.
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Got it working now, cheers Ben and Spruce, many thank's. It may have been my fault in not understanding electrics too well but it seem's to be as it should now following that 4 wire description you both gave.
The pressure switch takes longer to come on once I turn the tap off, is this normal?
you're welcome Ronnie, i am pleased for you,well done mate :)
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Sorry guys, the one i got has burnt a small hole in the plastic housing !!! It still works fine though, so i don't think its up to it really. Spotted this one from same supplier............
http://r.ebay.com/hbjPun (£16.99) seems a liitle bit higher spec, well more watts and amps capacity. Anyone any thoughts on it ? Or any thoughts on why the other one melted a hole? Controller not up to it, case to small to cool etc ?
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Corking post, CC, maybe I was wrong about you. Apologies. It's nice to see someone helping others out like this.
Ready made flow controllers are just over-engineered bits of tat that aren't robust enough for the job. I've had two different ones, both about the £100 mark and all they did was mess me around and then conk out before they made it to their first birthday.
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Sorry guys, the one i got has burnt a small hole in the plastic housing !!! It still works fine though, so i don't think its up to it really. Spotted this one from same supplier............
http://r.ebay.com/hbjPun (£16.99) seems a liitle bit higher spec, well more watts and amps capacity. Anyone any thoughts on it ? Or any thoughts on why the other one melted a hole? Controller not up to it, case to small to cool etc ?
look good,Does this switch on/off as well?
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Sorry guys, the one i got has burnt a small hole in the plastic housing !!! It still works fine though, so i don't think its up to it really. Spotted this one from same supplier............
http://r.ebay.com/hbjPun (£16.99) seems a liitle bit higher spec, well more watts and amps capacity. Anyone any thoughts on it ? Or any thoughts on why the other one melted a hole? Controller not up to it, case to small to cool etc ?
look good,Does this switch on/off as well?
Cheers Tosh ! :)
Ben, i'm not sure, havn't ordered one. I do have some reservations about it, mainly that them open fins would allow water/moisture into it and probably shorten its life.
I'm guessing here so i'm hoping for input from someone more knowledgeable. My feeling is the one i got is upto the job but the small case on it is no good for prolonged use , resulting in the burn hole in the case. i.e a bigger case shouldn;t have this problem. I'm going to try the one that Ronnie and Tosh got next, i just need to source a box for it.
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If you've got an old flow controller, see if the box fits the DIY one, like this:
I've deleted the pic since it messed up the post.
I had to cut a slot so the dial would fit.
I still haven't gotten around to fitting it though; I'm happy working without one.
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Sorry guys, the one i got has burnt a small hole in the plastic housing !!! It still works fine though, so i don't think its up to it really. Spotted this one from same supplier............
http://r.ebay.com/hbjPun (£16.99) seems a liitle bit higher spec, well more watts and amps capacity. Anyone any thoughts on it ? Or any thoughts on why the other one melted a hole? Controller not up to it, case to small to cool etc ?
look good,Does this switch on/off as well?
Cheers Tosh ! :)
Ben, i'm not sure, havn't ordered one. I do have some reservations about it, mainly that them open fins would allow water/moisture into it and probably shorten its life.
I'm guessing here so i'm hoping for input from someone more knowledgeable. My feeling is the one i got is upto the job but the small case on it is no good for prolonged use , resulting in the burn hole in the case. i.e a bigger case shouldn;t have this problem. I'm going to try the one that Ronnie and Tosh got next, i just need to source a box for it.
yer you are right, that one isnt water resistant, if any water got into that it could cause it to short.
good place to have a look at boxes is maplin. they do soome good ones!
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Surely having a water resistant box is a little academic isn't it?
Whatever box you mount it in will loose its water resistance as you need the controller k n o b on the outside to adjust the flow and turn the switch off. If it was on the inside of the box then you would need to unscrew the lid each time.
IMHO the unit would be better mounted down in the box as any water would tend the drip away and not find its way into the electonics board as in Tosh's unit. But it's more difficult to get to and wouldn't get an award for best design. If your van is dry (not dripping water), does it matter?
I wonder how many times a day Tosh actually adjusts his flow rate now his controller is 'part of the furniture'.
As regards the other question from Cleanclear - yes the higher the working amperage the better. The first controller you have would be fine for a low current draw pump such as one used in a backpack. But going for a higher amperage like that starts to put the cost up into the realms of the purpose built units.
They say that the max a larger Shurflo pump will draw is 6.2amps delivering water at 100psi , but that is running the pump 'flat out'. I don't know if the current draw would change if the motor is expected to do the same thing at a slower speed. I would think it would. There must come a time when a stalled motor under load becomes a 'short'.
If it didn't then we would never have a burnt out or cooked motor.
I appreciate that our motors haven't got field coils but use magnets, but the armature or rotor has got windings. If you put too much current through them they will heat up. This changes the resistance of the wire and and causes the motor to draw more current. Maybe the burn on this controller is evidence of that, but maybe it could just be the controller's weakest spot.
Nat Jones always suggested that part of this controller installation is to reduce the pump's max delivery pressure by adjusting the pressure switch. I agree with this advice. Nat has his adjusted at 65 psi. This will reduce the electrical stress of the electronics having to push the cutoff pressure to 100 psi every time.