Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Hard Floor Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Kev Martin on January 29, 2013, 04:50:24 pm
-
I had a phonecall yesterday from a good friend of mine who is not only a superb tiler but has loads of experience in Victorian Floor Restoration.
20 Days ago he cleaned and restored a Victorian Floor. He then left it for 9 Days to dry due to other work circumstances and then went in to seal it with Aqua Mix Enrich N Seal Premium Penetrating Sealer. All went well and the customer was over the moon and paid him and was so pleased even gave him a £30 Tip. This was 10 Days ago!
Monday morning this week the customer phones him having just got back from a 4 day break going mad and saying her floor is covered in White Powder. He went over yesterday morning and phoned me to ask why the Aqua Mix Enrich & Seal had caused so much efflorescence but moreover why it had taken 6 days to appear?
I will say at this juncture that Aqua Mix Enrich N Seal is a very unique sealer it has no transport system to carry itself into the stone such as water or solvent. It uses itself and by definition is over 90% Sealer!
I will send 2 x gallons of Aqua Mix Eff-Ex worth over £60 inc VAT as a prize for the best explanation of how and why the Efflorescence occurred?
Employees of Marblelife & Tiling Logistics may not enter & Jamie from CSUK your banned as well ;D
Kev Martin
Marblelife Ltd
Tiling Logistics
-
Given the timing, I would say that the very low temperatures that we had over the last couple of weeks perhaps contributed to moisture being held in a porous tile for a lot longer than would generally be expected, and the increase in temperature we've had over the weekend has finally allowed the tiles to dry, and the evaporated moisture has left the effloresance?
-
Employees of Marblelife & Tiling Logistics may not enter & Jamie from CSUK your banned as well ;D
I don't want to play anyway.
-
Anyone who wants the answer call me and we can split the prize ;D
-
It sounds like the salts from the cement coming through, and as said previously because of the cold it has taken a while for things to dry out, did it just wipe away?
-
I bet they have been walking on the floor with shoes that have picked up road salt.. ;D
-
I bet they have been walking on the floor with shoes that have picked up road salt.. ;D
Andrew
I expected a perfect answer from you with your experience! Do you want me to book you on the March Hard Floor Course? ;D ;D ;D
Kev Martin
Marblelife Ltd
Tiling Logistics
-
I will give you all a clue a day! But to start you off here are two clues for Day 1!
1. Heavy Snow since the floor was cleaned ::)
2. VICTORIAN Floor so no ---- ----- -------- Underneath
Kev Martin
Marblelife Ltd
Tiling Logistics
-
haven't got a clue but gonna throw a guess in anyway lol.
heavy snow melted no drainage under the floor so stayed wet in the tile when sealer applied it sucked up the moisture along with the salts and forced it to the top then dried.
;D
-
Its one of those trick questions..'Sorry sir cant quote over the phone or by email, need to do a site visit to inspect the floor'!! ;D
-
As there was no DPM as the snow melted it caused moisture under the tiles causing efflorescence.
Mark
-
As there was no DPM as the snow melted it caused moisture under the tiles causing efflorescence.
Mark
Mark
Congratulations! Well done!
When he had cleaned it and left it all that time before he sealed it there was no efflorescence. When he sealed it he did nothing wrong the job was perfect! However the next day it then snowed heavily and stayed on the ground for a week then it melted into the ground that was already sodden. The melted snow seeped under the house and soaked the substrate under the hall that had no Damp Proof Membrane so we had all three factors Water, Salts and a brilliant easy route. The Aqua Mix Enrich N Seal that had been applied is MVT Moisture Vapour Transmissable (Breathable) so it just let the salts pass through.
The solution was to go in and brush it off dry with a soft to medium brush on a rotary and vac it up. Instead he panicked and attacked it with Aqua Mix Phosphoric Acid Substitute diluted with water and the water used to dilute it sparked the efflorescence off again! Simples!
Mark collect your Aqua Mix Eff-Ex when you pick your machine up!
Kev Martin
Marblelife Ltd
Tiling Logistics
-
Yay I won!! Wouldn't of got it without clue no2 ;D
Mark
-
It sounds like a good and right explanation but how could you prove it to the customer?
Thanks
Mark Roberts
PS. Thanks for the course a few weeks ago Kevin. Really enjoyed it. Could you send me the usb stick so I can refresh the notes. Thanks
-
Mark
Certificates and USB on their way out tomorrow or Tuesday latest. The way you convince the customer is because if Efflorescence was caused or going to occur it would have happened almost immediately after cleaning or it would have manifested itself within 48 hrs of the cleaning. The sealing of the floor could not have caused it because there is no water in the sealer!
Kev Martin
Marblelife Ltd
Tiling Logistics
-
So how was it cured?
Shaun
-
So how was it cured?
Shaun
The source of the water that caused the efflorescence stopped! Nothing to say it could not re occur but that could be helped by the application of a coat of Aqua mix Eff-Ex.
http://www.custombuildingproducts.com/products/aqua-mix/problem-solvers/aqua-mix-eff-ex.aspx
Kev Martin
Marblelife ltd
Tiling Logistics
-
Just a couple of questions on this
Are there any photos of the floor with the efflorescence visible?
Where was the floor located within the home?
Did the efflorescence appear across the whole expanse of flooring or just the edges closest to the exterior walls?
-
Just a couple of questions on this
Are there any photos of the floor with the efflorescence visible?
Where was the floor located within the home?
Did the efflorescence appear across the whole expanse of flooring or just the edges closest to the exterior walls?
Dave
There are no photos! Why are they relavent to the post?
The floor was the Hallway in a Victorian House
The efflorescence was across the whole floor
Kev Martin
Marblelife Ltd
Tiling Logistics
-
Kevin, are you implying that the melting snow has created enough moisture to soak into the ground around the home and migrate through the entirety of the whole floor?
-
Kevin, are you implying that the melting snow has created enough moisture to soak into the ground around the home and migrate through the entirety of the whole floor?
Dave
No I am not implying it! I am stating that is what happened! Tonnes of snow melting into the ground around the house saturated the substrate then came up through the only tiled floor in the house without a damp proof membrane and caused the efflorescence!
Or do you have another credible explanation???
Kev Martin
Marblelife Ltd
Tiling Logistics
-
Doesn't sound possible. Having worked on 100's of Victorian floors, we've never seen anything like this across the whole floor.
Sounds more like the dwelling of your sodium hydroxide based cleaning product has been absorbed into the porous unglazed tile. The water dilution has evaporated leaving behind the heavier chemical to dry out and crystalise into the salts the product is derived from. We see this all the time following up from other 'restorers'.
-
Doesn't sound possible. Having worked on 100's of Victorian floors, we've never seen anything like this across the whole floor.
Sounds more like the dwelling of your sodium hydroxide based cleaning product has been absorbed into the porous unglazed tile. The water dilution has evaporated leaving behind the heavier chemical to dry out and crystalise into the salts the product is derived from. We see this all the time following up from other 'restorers'.
Dave
1. The porosity of a Victorian tile is very low.
2. The guy involved is very very experienced, he has done 1000's of Victorian and Edwardian floors and has in excess of 20 years experience as one of the best tilers i have ever met.
3. He works in very small areas, vacs up and rinses very quickly and uses a floor drier!
4. Finally, did you read the initial post??? Clearly not because even I don't know what he cleaned it with so where did you get the phrase "your product". and whilst your reading it look at the time frames involved
So thats that theory out the window then!!!
Kev Martin
Marblelife Ltd
Tiling Logistics
-
Kevin,
Without being argumentative, the initial post doesn't mention a cleaning product only a specific sealer. I apologise if I've assumed the cleaning product to be one of yours. I was more interested in the rational behind the determination of the fault.
Victorian tiles are porous and laid on a porous substrate, or at least porous enough to want to absorb water and chemicals at a rate unsuitable for dwelling with a chemical. Such practices as pre-wetting and dwelling of chemicals are just asking for problems. We've even seen similar problems on these floors when one guy has worked alone, by scrubbing, stopping and vacuuming up. Be it too much water or chemical the after effect is very similar.
Why does the salt take days to appear? Because the alkaline ingredients of the cleaner more dense than the readily evaporated water used for dilution, rinsing, pre-wetting. As the water evaporates up through the tile body, salts deposits are left behind, naturally these deposits are going to be minute, they'd have to be to pass through the pores of a tile, but they accumulate.
The application of a sealer no matter how good it is, will impede this moisture transfer at some level. Somewhat akin to putting klingfilm over a plant, the moisture will escape but slowly, leaving behind a moisture residue.
Personally I wouldn't advise leaving a customer with an unsealed floor for any longer than absolutely necessary, can they be trusted? Look how they treat their floors before we restore them :(
-
Dave
Lets leave it at that! I don't have the time or the inclination to keep anwsering you because you forget I to have restored 100's of these floors some with serious existing efflorescence problems and never had an issue with sealing them. So lets agree to disagree, you do it your way and I will continue to do it my tried and tested way.
Kev Martin
Marblelife Ltd
Tilinglogistics
-
It sounds like the salts from the cement coming through, and as said previously because of the cold it has taken a while for things to dry out, did it just wipe away?
Bill, I take it that you are still a Tile Doctor?
I note that you like to use Aqua Mix products (as I do) why is it that Russ hasn't given you the boot too?
I asked you about what products you use to remove slate seal (I am still waiting your response) and I get the heave-ho from Tile Doctor?? Not that I am bothered as I think they are over priced and under performing produtcs.
-
Hi Rob,
Yes I am an affiliate to the tile doctor.
I don't understand why you think Russ would give me the boot.
We have had our own issues in the past but I'm sure if you asked Russ, I am quite open about what I do, but I adhere to his program and expect the same from him.
Since I have been with his network I have only ever used his products even for work outside of the tile doctor enquiry system, and all my accounts can verify this if it means that much to you.
I haven't written many posts so it was easy to look back to see what I have written and I haven't mentioned Aquamix products once, although I agree they are a good brand, because this is what Russ used to provide under his name, which he was open about.
I can only find one post that you asked me a question and it was about a Victorian floor which I gave a reply to you, that Kevin had given the advice.
So how can you associate me to you getting the boot from TD network.
As for your other comments about TD, you should be sending them to Russ not me.
-
Melting snow has the effect of raising the water table. This will affect any floors or walls without suitable barriers to the moisture ingress.
-
Melting snow has the effect of raising the water table. This will affect any floors or walls without suitable barriers to the moisture ingress.
John
I totally agree!
Kev Martin
Marblelife Ltd
Tiling Logistics