Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Daniels cleaning on January 18, 2013, 11:45:41 am
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Hi everybody i have been cleaning carpets for a while now....I have for the last few weeks been trying to change my routine (not sure why :) ) I have been for about a year putting prochem extraction pro in the tank as reccomended dilution..spraying the carpet over lightly with the wand then agitating with a brush then going over the carpet extracting..old fashioned way with great results.......But i read on these forums that if you use a pre spray with a pressure pump. agitate with a brush leave for ten minutes and then extract with plain hot water...you will get better results.....I have done this the last few weeks using powerburst as a pre spray....And im not convinced its any better!!!!
Can i have your input please on what system you think works better or even what routine you use...
Thanks for your time
Danny :)
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you are already getting 'great results' how much better do you think you can get? 'fantastically great results'
if you are getting great results then they only reason to change what you are doing is to achieve something else, faster cleaning, dryer carpet when finished, etc
what do you really want to achieve by changing?
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The biggest improvement on your old method is you are leaving less chemical in the carpet after.
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Thanks I didnt really want to change.. i just thought it was old fashioned way of cleaning carpets (the extraction pro way) and a lot of people on here seem to be pre spraying with powerburst agitating then hot water rinse.. I was really just wondering what peoples opinions were?
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Danny
Try your original method but swap the Extraction Pro for Altec's Ultimate Master (powder version). Much better results in my opinion and on the instructions it recommends doing it this way.
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im amazed your getting good results using ex pro as a prespray,in my opinion its not designed for that is it?
surely multi pro or powerburst ,agitation and some dwell time is alwats gonna work better
am i missing something?
gary
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Thanks for replying.. If I use power burst will extract pro or similar be ok in the tank or should it be an acid rinse every time? Thanks
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I find going in and pre spraying with pb or similar speeds the job up. Your old method you have to set up the gear, then spray and agitate and dwell if necessary before extracting.
I pre spray and agitate and while its dwelling set up the extractor and start rinsing as soon as I'm set up.
Lew
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If I use power burst will extract pro or similar be ok in the tank or should it be an acid rinse every time?
Depends what you are cleaning :)
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What works better is pre-spray (& agitation if u want) with chemical, then rinsing with pure water (or slightly acidified water).
it's not only down to what u see on the day.
To make this system easy to use, better get a TM.
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Ditch the Extraction Pro its crap and try Chemspec Formula 90 loads better
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What's with this pre-spraying first and extracting with something similar in the tank, i keep seeing on here, i don't get it. If anyone puts down powerburst first and has to put another high ph alkaline in the tank to get results, they are doing something wrong. It's not just about how clean you leave a carpet, it's how neutral you leave it to avoid rapid resoiling and other problems.
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Vac
Powerburst / multi pro etc... applied hot
Agitate with brush or CRB
Leave to dwell 10 mins
Extract using hot water and fibre fabric rinse
Would you rinse the shampoo out of your hair with soapy water?
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Vac
Powerburst / multi pro etc... applied hot
Agitate with brush or CRB
Leave to dwell 10 mins
Extract using hot water and fibre fabric rinse
Would you rinse the shampoo out of your hair with soapy water?
Would you wash your hair with powerburst, agitate with CRB and rinse with fabric and fibre rinse mate :P
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Wouldn't wash my hair with it, i aint got any. but Russ's method is correct well it's what the NCCA and most on here recommend
Vac, prespray, agitate, dwell, extract acid rinse if required the hotter the better.
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I rinse carpets every day with hot soapy water as long as you stick to the dilution rates there wont be a problem iam sure companys like Chemspec and Prochem no what they are doing.
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The point i was trying to make was a fresh water rinse removes all the detergents, soaps etc from the carpet.
Rapid re soil doesn't happen by accident, its down to residues which haven't been fully extracted from the carpet.
Rapid resoil was talked about on the Prochem carpet cleaning course and how to avoid it.
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if you look at the dilution rates of some thing like F90 at 500-1 you recover 80% of the solution you put down, so on an average carpet you will leave less than half a teaspoon of chemical spread across the full carpet, most of which will powder up upon drying and be vacced out.
why is their a problem with rinsing with a detergents? resoling, sticky residue, chemical sensitivity, are all carpet cleaning urban myths passed on from one inexperienced carpet cleaner to another.
you can usually tell the experienced as they tend it use washing machines & hair washing as valid arguments against detergent rinsing ;) which is a bit like me say "you wouldn't play football with a pork pie"... a totally irrelevant point
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I'm sure we have all seen the problems left behind with rugdocters, vax machines and other diy methods were detergents are used in the tank. Ok i'm going to extremes but the principal is the same. If you don't prespray, maybe a microsplitter in the tank is a safer way to go.
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Would someone please explain the advantages of adding a detergent to the tank of a HWE machine?
Prochem supply products such as Pre spray gold and multi pro as pre sprays and also extraction plus... never understood why you would want to spray and suck without allowing the chemical to dwell, as its the dwell time which is really important unless its a micro splitter.
Does rinsing with formula 90 give better results?
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This is why people use very hot water when using in tank detergents. It aids emulsifying the muck in the second it is in contact with the carpet.
I prefer the prespray/ plain water rinse approach- but everyone to their own.....
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this would be a great topic for the TACCA training day, there is such a lack of knowledge about how specific parts of the cleaning process work and how they interact with each other,
a quick question...... how does using a detergent leave the carpet dryer than using a freshwater rinse?
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If you know the answer Mike... do enlighten us who are hungry for knowledge!!!
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Russ the question was rhetorical..... I do know the answer :D
When I get back to my laptop I will answer, at the moment I'm on the iPad and I hate typing big posts on the touch screen.
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My guess would be that surfactants give the water more surface area, so drying is faster.
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I think you may be on the right track there Ash... Found this info
Anionic surfactants
When the hydrophilic part of the surfactant consists of a negatively charged group like a sulphonate, sulphate or carboxylate the surfactant is called anionic. Basic soaps are anionic surfactants. Over the last 50 years many soaps have been replaced with more efficient substances like alkyl sulphates, alkyl sulphonates and alkyl benzene sulphonates.
Anionic surfactants are sensitive to water hardness.
Nonionic surfactants
A surfactant with a non-charged hydrophilic part, e.g. ethoxylate, is non-ionic. These substances are well suited for cleaning purposes and are not sensitive to water hardness.
They have a wide application within cleaning detergents and include groups like fatty alcohol polyglycosides, alcohol ethoxylates etc.
Cationic surfactants
For this category the hydrophilic part is positively charged – e.g. with a quaternary ammonium ion. This group has no wash activity effect, but fastens to the surfaces where they might provide softening, antistatic, soil repellent, anti bacterial or corrosion inhibitory effects.
The most typical applications are for softeners and antistatics.
And here is some data on a Prochem product:
Double Clean
A concentrated heavy-duty extraction detergent, formulated for optimum performance in cleaning heavily soiled carpets. Double Clean contains high quality anionic and non-ionic surfactants, alkaline builders and corrosion inhibitor. Blue powder with citrus mint fragrance.
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nope the answer is much simpler.
when we clean a carpet we should aim for the perfection situation of a single pass with the wand, with just one wet pass we should remove the dirt. if we can do this we will save time and more importantly not over wet the carpet.
a lot of the problems posted on here are the result of over wetting ( browning, carpet smelling, carpet not drying for 24hrs etc) how could these problem happen with a single wet stroke of the wand? the answer is they don't these problems arise because after the single wet stroke of the wand the carpet is not clean,
so what do they do?
they do another wet pass....
then another wet pass....
then they get the pump up sprayer.....
put down some more prespray.....
and scrub the carpet....
then they begin again with the wet strokes.....
ALL THE TIME THEY ARE ALLOWING MORE WETNESS TO BE ABSORBED INTO THE CARPET
we've all done it...... we clean in front of the settee and it still looks a bit grafted so we do another wet stroke, still dirty so we press hard on the wand to scrub the carpet while pulling the trigger all the time we are making the carpet wetter & wetter
so how can we achieve a single pass clean with the wand?
the answer is we u
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So basically Mike if I were to put say double clean in the rinse tank the carpet would be noticably cleaner after one pass, than just water?
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wayne detergent in the tank is just one element that will help a single pass clean.
good prespray + good agitation + hot water + detergent in the tank = one pass clean
amazing, dogs bollooxs prespray + cold water rinse = ???
why limit yourself by not using every tool you have, we need to remember we don't know if our prespray has worked 100% what iF it only detaches 60% of the dirt off the fibre? how would we know? not until we do that first wet pass and we see the carpet still looks dirty they we are caught up in the trap off multiple wet passes..... to make up for a 'prespray failure'.
presprays make up a 'soup' of the dirt in the carpet its is not a nice little solution waiting for cold water to wash it out, its a gooey soup still sticking and wrapped around the fibres it needs extra help to totally release from the carpet, this is where hot water and detergent finish off the cleaning
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I see where you are coming from Mike but when dealing with wool / wool mixed carpets the correct pre spray needs to be selected from the very start so the only addertive in the rinse tank is a neutralising one.
Just out of interest, could you give examples of pre spray and in tank detergent combos please :)
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With all whats been written and said,,,,dwell time this,,
Agitation that,scrub,rinse and whatever,so far,nothing
By members has been said about avoiding the dreaded
Shrinkage.Especially Axminsters and Wiltons.
The old adage,,,what you leave and drop.Multi-Pro,
Formular 20 Powerburst,it`s `firewater`. :o :o :o
Especially powdered additives.
Members ,over say 20 sq.yds.what volume in quantity
Do you leave for `dwell time.
This should be interesting. ::)
Lewis Doubtfire
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I see where you are coming from Mike but when dealing with wool / wool mixed carpets the correct pre spray needs to be selected from the very start so the only addertive in the rinse tank is a neutralising one.
Just out of interest, could you give examples of pre spray and in tank detergent combos please :)
Russ you could say its even more important to use a detergent in the tank with wool as its wool that is a problem with over wetting.
You can still stay within wool safe perimeters using a detergent F90, Prochem liquid woolsafe , chemspec high heat all are ok on wool.
We need to remember what I said earlier we only leave half a teaspoon of detergent on a average carpet, it's worth leaving that for the benefit a detergent gives.
Ps: Lewis sorry mate your post is gobbledygook what are you trying to say? Do you post with a smartphone? As your posts are staggered
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Hi Mike,I guess and recon I`m out of the old school perhaps.
I`ve used Pro-Chems Multi-Pro since the early 70`s.And
Powdered Formular 90 since about 1990.Both are my own
Personal favorites.I`d like Danny to come back and say what
Liquor / solution `drop`he did or does over say 20 sq.yds.
Lewis Doubtfire
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Hi everyone thanks for your posts...i didnt expect all the helpful info... i prefer to power burst 1 scoop per litre..which i have found effecrive on all carpets...if i clean wool or light carpets i will acid rinse...otherwise i add prochem extraction to the tank... i feel prochem extract pro dilluted as advised is perfectly adequate in rinsing the powerburst as i only use power burst in high traffic areas..
Thoughts please?
Thanks
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Danny,I`m finding your post perhaps as confusing as what
Mike Halliday has found mine.
You write on your last post “your thoughts please”
Go back to your original post.
Can you clarify irrespective of what chemicals / solutions
Your using and say approximately how much are you leaving
Down to `”dwell`in the carpet fibres thanks
Lewis Doubtfire
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this would be a great topic for the TACCA training day, there is such a lack of knowledge about how specific parts of the cleaning process work and how they interact with each other,
a quick question...... how does using a detergent leave the carpet dryer than using a freshwater rinse?
Mike I think you have just talked yourself into doing a training session for the TACCA day, and it would be great to see you again ;)
What does every one else think?
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Formula 90 is an encapsulation product and dries to a micro powder easily vacuumed away you can also dilute it down even more and it becomes into the parameters of wool safe (although not with the logo)
Shaun
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This is interesting and some good replies from everyone... today i cleaned some restaurant chairs for a friend of mine, to be fair they were lightly soiled... Dug out some Prochem products i had in the garage...
After i vacuumed them to death to remove as much of the dry soil and dust as possible, i pre sprayed with Prochem's Fabric Restorer.
I then agitated using my nylon scrub brush and left to dwell for around 10 - 15.
In the tank of my little Ashby's steam boosted spotter i added the recommended amount of Fab Clean.
Hand on heart did adding the Fab Clean help? no not really... all it seemed to do was add to the foam issue i was having with the pre spray!
I did try and extract with and without and found no difference in the amount of wet strokes i was having to use in order to rinse the soils from the fabric.
The heat from the spotter did help to achieve a drier fabric once i had completed, a dry towel was all that was needed to finish.
Maybe this was the wrong combination of chemicals to use... ?
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Fab clean is like tatty water it's just full of optical brighteners! the heat will increase the speed of the chemical reaction so you get back to what mike is saying about the one clean pass or at least lesser amount of passes.
Most soils are grease based, by breaking the bond and suspending most of the soils with a pre spray you are left with a percentage that still is left so a rinse detergent will then again break up some more with chemical solution heat and further agitation with the wand.
Shaun
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Hi Sean
In your opinion, what combination would you of chosen? what in tank detergent have you used which you have been impressed with?
Cheers
Russ
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I use formula 90 it has bio solve which is a natural grease cutter ( well its not a solvent ) I prefer to dilute at half or less the recommended dilUtion rate as when I tested it had a ph8.
I also pre spray most things with it I don't use much pre sprays nowadays.
Shaun