Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: S.W. Window Cleaning on December 29, 2012, 10:15:52 am
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Hi,
Im just starting out as a window cleaner at the beginning of the year using wfp. I have a deposit paid on a 2009 Citroen Dispatch with 46,000 miles costing £123 per month over 4 years.
Then a friend says im mad. Buy a new one as it will be best in the long run. It works out at £232 a month over 5 years for the same sort of van. I can buy a vivaro for the same price as well. It might be too big though. Im just worried as obviously it takes time to get customers.
What would be your advice,
Cheers,
Steve
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I bought my first van out right for £3500 i think it was, some will say get new but when starting a new business you need all the cash you can get why waste money on a new van plus you will have the added stress of meeting the monthly payments.
Once you have built a good round and know the money is coming in then get a new van i'm looking at getting a new two man van at the end of 2013
Paul
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Its what you can afford mate, no one is buying new which is making 2nd hand vans more expensive, new vehicle sales are down by 25% and main dealers are getting desperate and there is some cracking deals on new out there, I picked up a new one this week and knocked him down by thousands 8)
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If this is a new venture/industry to you, I would gauge the market first.
How you canvassed or got any customers yet, because you have now created your first expense. You can start wfp from your car with a backpack or trolley.
I do not mean to kick you in the nads, but would worry first on how your going to pay yourself and the bills before old or new vans.
Good luck though
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I've been wc'ing 8 years, I went WFP 3 years ago and bought a 7 year old transit connect with 100k for £2500. It has pass the mot every year, and I e only had to replace the starter moter in that time.
So what I am saying is buying new doesn't mean better. The cost of the van will be more, and the depreciation will be higher.
You will get people like me buying secondhand and get a good'n, but there will be bad ones too. But the same goes for new vans.
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If you are concerned about the reliability of buying a second hand van you could consider getting breakdown cover and a decent mechanical warranty.
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Hi,
Yes its more to do with reliability. Sounds as if the used van would be more sensible. Its coming with a years warranty anyway. My friend was just saying by the time its paid off it will be worth nothing but if its looked after there should be a good few years in it.
Cheers,
Steve
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When choosing a van or or any other ongoing expense I always look at what I have coming in each month to make sure that it can be covered easily. It really important to have a reliable vehicle for your work but only if you have the incoming to cover it.
Just a few points to consider and I don't want to sound like the forum miser but these are relevant to your situation.
A very high percentage of window cleaners give up a few months after starting their business.
The current economic climate has seen a massive increase in the number of window cleaners therefor increasing the competition.
The economic downturn has caused some customers to drop their window cleaning service.
Back to the van, the dispatch van has proved very reliable and is well suited to window cleaning with a good payload and lowish roof for ladders. The vivaro is a better van to buy with a warranty as there have been some reported problems with them, the payload is similar to the dispatch depending on the model you buy but it has a lot more room inside, so it would be useful for add on services as well, but the higher roof is more difficult for ladders.
Simon
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Hi,
Yes its more to do with reliability. Sounds as if the used van would be more sensible. Its coming with a years warranty anyway. My friend was just saying by the time its paid off it will be worth nothing but if its looked after there should be a good few years in it.
Cheers,
Steve
what does this mate do for a living ?
just do what you think is right
either way you need a van so go with your gut feeling IMHO
if you buy a goodun then you will save a packet ...... buy a wrongun and you will be skint.
maybe stick half of what your saving by buying used into an emergency "fix the van fund" and its there if u need it or a nice wedge in 4 years towards a new van ;)
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Just my opinion but never buy a new if you can help it. Same as a car really, VAT and depreciation will kill you in the long run. In the short term, you will end up with a reliable van due to the warranty. Excluding days' wages lost with it being off the road and no replacement. Having said that, there are some good new buys to be had because the market is so slow, but I would still prefer a two or three year old van. (mine is old before i get clobbered). If it were me, I would get the most reliable van I could and in my research it seems to be the Toyota Hiace. You can get a minter with no VAT for Eight K. Financially that's where I would be.
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Hey Steve,
Best advice to give is to keep your cost base to a minimum for as long as you can... But don't skimp on quality of equipment... Get the lightest poles u can etc...
Van wise, a new van isn't always the most reliable... Personally I went second hand and bought a good warranty from the likes of car care plan etc....
No right or wrong answer buddy.... Just watch those overheads...
Cheers
Matt
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i'm buying a brand new van, getting a very very good deal on it with the standard manufacturers 3 year warrenty
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For me it would be madness to buy a new van, until you have the workload to justify it
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I would buy a second had BUT tidy van - if it's in good nick and serviced then go for that ( 1500 to 2k will get you a great van )
you are just starting out and need to make sure to can make a living out of window cleaning and not tie up large amounts of money p/m paying off finance etc.. 4 or 5 years is a hell of a long time to pay off a vehicle esp. if it becomes unsuitable
you may get a small van and outgrow it in a year and likewise get a big van and never fill it so your lugging around
a huge van, when a combo would be far better.
Darran
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I would buy a second had BUT tidy van - if it's in good nick and serviced then go for that ( 1500 to 2k will get you a great van )
you are just starting out and need to make sure to can make a living out of window cleaning and not tie up large amounts of money p/m paying off finance etc.. 4 or 5 years is a hell of a long time to pay off a vehicle esp. if it becomes unsuitable
you may get a small van and outgrow it in a year and likewise get a big van and never fill it so your lugging around
a huge van, when a combo would be far better.
Darran
yup this is good advice ... I ran a Transit T260 for 2 years when a Combo ... which I have now ( was stop gap) would have been much better for the job.
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get whatever you can afford, in my experience the older and more miles a van has the more you are going to spend maintaining it, once they get to a certain age everything starts failing,
some vans can be reliable and will give you years of service, others dont want to go to work and cost a fortune, its down to pot luck some times
you need to choose the right van for your business, dont buy a lwb high top transit if you only carry 350l of water and 2 poles, running costs are important too.
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vans has got much better in recent years . like cars have. but who is going to be yur market? turn up on the council estates in a new van and you will get nowhere fast as you will look too flash
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I run a 1999 Fiesta van, which is all I need to carry my trad gear around.
It is very clean and tidy, and after sorting out a few problems caused by wear and tear, is now reliable as well.
I have a tendency to run my vehicles until they drop, and as this one is in such good nick, I intend to keep it for as long as it is most economical to do so.
If I were to give any advice here, it would be to check out the size of van you need, buy the best you can for the least you can, and look after it.
John
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Could someone please put a link up to a good deal on a new van because I've never actually seen one!
Same with cars, there were better bargains & deals out there before this recession started!
All I see now are worse deals "dressed up" to "appear" better.
Take Vauxhall for example- 5 years 0% (but only offered @ FULL MRP) basic Astras used to be 10k, they're now closer to 15k! You can actually pay interest on a seperate loan & have a LOWER total amount payable if you go in with cash.
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www.vanman.co.uk seems to do pretty good prices ,if you subscribe often has deals on cancelled orders and what nots
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Could someone please put a link up to a good deal on a new van because I've never actually seen one!
Same with cars, there were better bargains & deals out there before this recession started!
All I see now are worse deals "dressed up" to "appear" better.
Take Vauxhall for example- 5 years 0% (but only offered @ FULL MRP) basic Astras used to be 10k, they're now closer to 15k! You can actually pay interest on a seperate loan & have a LOWER total amount payable if you go in with cash.
Spot on. It's all about the bottom line.
One must look past all the advertising and marketing hype - its designed in such a way that decisions are made on emotion rather than logic and common sense.
Most of those deals done on the scrappage scheme were a typical example. I was following the detail of this with regard to Citroen. At the tail end of the day, the public actually lost money when compared with deals before the scheme started. They got sucked in with high tradeins for scrap cars which had to have some MOT (gave it a bit more credability). When the scheme started to run out of steam, they hyped it up some more by advertising the Govt support funds were running out so hurry up before its too late.
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sorry to highjack. Happy new year spruce. What a start tho. Are ya working in this?? :(
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sorry to highjack. Happy new year spruce. What a start tho. Are ya working in this?? :(
What a change. Dry first thing this morning and now this. Think I will go back to bed. Looks as though its set in for the day and totaly different from the forecast I looked at yesterday morning for the whole week. The papers described a month of drought after the floods - not a good start for that prediction.
Might dry up a little by lunch time I see now but not for long.
I've started a comparison spreadsheet for last years work for the 3 of us, and this year the same spreadsheet is to include a local weather report. I got 173 days work in last year, but looking back I have no idea which were bad weather days and which days I wasn't well enough to work but were good working days. Hopefully, by the end of this year we will have some statistics that are meaningful.
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www.vanman.co.uk seems to do pretty good prices ,if you subscribe often has deals on cancelled orders and what nots
Where? what do you think are good prices? All they are doing is showing LOW monthly payments on lease contracts- look a little closer!
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sorry to highjack. Happy new year spruce. What a start tho. Are ya working in this?? :(
What a change. Dry first thing this morning and now this. Think I will go back to bed. Looks as though its set in for the day and totaly different from the forecast I looked at yesterday morning for the whole week. The papers described a month of drought after the floods - not a good start for that prediction.
Might dry up a little by lunch time I see now but not for long.
I've started a comparison spreadsheet for last years work for the 3 of us, and this year the same spreadsheet is to include a local weather report. I got 173 days work in last year, but looking back I have no idea which were bad weather days and which days I wasn't well enough to work but were good working days. Hopefully, by the end of this year we will have some statistics that are meaningful.
I know the feeling, I am going to start working in light to moderate rain this year. I have looked at my customer clean average and have only cleaned 99% of my work 10 times this year instead of 13. Thats alot of money not earned. Something has to change and I am not relying on the weather to do so.lol
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Hi,
Im just starting out as a window cleaner at the beginning of the year using wfp. I have a deposit paid on a 2009 Citroen Dispatch with 46,000 miles costing £123 per month over 4 years.
Then a friend says im mad. Buy a new one as it will be best in the long run. It works out at £232 a month over 5 years for the same sort of van. I can buy a vivaro for the same price as well. It might be too big though. Im just worried as obviously it takes time to get customers.
What would be your advice,
Cheers,
Steve
Hi Steve
I have thought about your post and have come to the conclusion that only you will know whether this is the right thing you have done or not according to your circumstances.
Unfortunately we don't know the original price or the VAT situation or anything about the deal you have done. We also don't know which model Dispatch you have put a deposit down on. We know that you are paying £123 per month for 48 months, but don't know how much deposit you paid and we don't know the finance detail, ie is there a final payment at the end of the contract, etc? (I see a dealer in Driffield is looking for £7650 + VAT for a 2009 Dispatch 120 SWB with 40k on the clock.)
We also don't know how much work is available in Londonderry either.
So I would hope that you have done a "due diligence" study and have put together an action plan for the next few months on how you are going to build a successful business on the foundation you are laying now. I am a little concerned for your situation that a friend has made a comment that appears to have derailed your plan of action to get this business started. You need to be convinced that according to your vision, you are doing the right thing. (Nobody has a crystal ball that will tell them the future. This van maybe troublesome, it may be totally reliable. Just because you buy brand new doesn't guarantee peace of mind. A new van can also be a 'lemon'. If you are concerned, look at an extended warranty for your s/h van against major driveline failures - but tread carefully as these are written for max seller profitability.)
A good, reliable van is important and so is the WFP equipment you need to do your business. The extra money you would spend on a new van would be better spent of the right WFP equipment IMHO.
A lot of people started off using ladders as this is a way of getting a business going with very little expense. As with us, most of what we started with, ladders, squeege, applicator, bucket and cloths are still in use now we are WFP, although not to the same extent obviously.
Building a business takes time and so you need to be able to have some funds initially to 'tide you over'. The lower your startup and running costs initially, the quicker you business will become profitable.
In my personal observation, most non VAT registered businesses don't buy new vans. It's better for VAT registered companies to buy them though as they claim the VAT back. This means that when they sell them, VAT is still applicable on the sellers price as the vehicle is VAT qualifying. By far the majority of 3 year old vans are leasing returns and all qualify for VAT.
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sorry to highjack. Happy new year spruce. What a start tho. Are ya working in this?? :(
What a change. Dry first thing this morning and now this. Think I will go back to bed. Looks as though its set in for the day and totaly different from the forecast I looked at yesterday morning for the whole week. The papers described a month of drought after the floods - not a good start for that prediction.
Might dry up a little by lunch time I see now but not for long.
I've started a comparison spreadsheet for last years work for the 3 of us, and this year the same spreadsheet is to include a local weather report. I got 173 days work in last year, but looking back I have no idea which were bad weather days and which days I wasn't well enough to work but were good working days. Hopefully, by the end of this year we will have some statistics that are meaningful.
I know the feeling, I am going to start working in light to moderate rain this year. I have looked at my customer clean average and have only cleaned 99% of my work 10 times this year instead of 13. Thats alot of money not earned. Something has to change and I am not relying on the weather to do so.lol
Same here. I hate working in this kind of weather. I am also tired of customer forgetting who I am. :)
I think I will have to get my Unger Teleplus poles out so we can run the dirty pole hose on the outside of the pole. The trouble with the Gardiner CF poles is that they clog up quickly with dirt from the hose, even after cleaning them regularily. I have also noticed that it does take longer to clean monthly cleans at 6 or 8 weeks, especially in the Saltburn streets.
Out you go then, after you. ;D ;D ;D
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www.vanman.co.uk seems to do pretty good prices ,if you subscribe often has deals on cancelled orders and what nots
Where? what do you think are good prices? All they are doing is showing LOW monthly payments on lease contracts- look a little closer!
Those are the important flashing lights to attract your attention. Its cheap so it must be a good deal. £199 pm for a LWB Citroen Relay, WOW. I'll phone for a price. I bet the Dispatch will be cheaper as its a smaller van............ It works as some on here have already fallen for it in the advise they are giving to someone else. How can anyone advise someone else about this being a good deal when they don't know the details of the deal in the first instance?
I bet the deal they offer in the end is nothing like what you thought. £199 will be + VAT for starters, low deposit means nothing and neither does the final payment. Its also a finance lease so will have a large balloon payment at the end at that monthly payment, which you are responsible for. (If the vehicle isn't worth the balloon payment after 4 years, that's your risk - cough up the difference to finish the deal. Once you get hooked onto a deal like this its very difficult to get out of, even at the end of the first lease. Its designed that way and the finance houses have had years to fine tune it in their favour.)
The other trick is to offer a deal in advertising that no finance house will take on. Get the customer signed up and excited and then blame the finance house for wanting a bigger deposit to meet those low monthly payments, or alter the deal from 48 months to 60 months and forget to inform the customer. When customers are excited they don't look at the paperwork properly. The motor trade is full of wheeler dealers looking for the next sales gimmick.
You are 100% right Winpro.
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IMO Spruce, new cars & vans are way more expensive now than before the recession hit! The deals are worse too when you look under the surface.
I suppose it makes sense- the more you sell the more money you make-the less you can sell them for. When you are selling less, then you have to achieve more profit per unit.
The Vauxhall example I gave earlier is a real & blatant con- nothing else!
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IMO Spruce, new cars & vans are way more expensive now than before the recession hit! The deals are worse too when you look under the surface.
I suppose it makes sense- the more you sell the more money you make-the less you can sell them for. When you are selling less, then you have to achieve more profit per unit.
The Vauxhall example I gave earlier is a real & blatant con- nothing else!
When we went through the "Rip of Britain" phase about 14 years ago, the motor industry was forced to take action. Berlingo vans were being imported from Ireland by the hundreds and we were feeling it on the commercial side.
The Range Rover sales from UK dealers also nose dived as there was big savings to be had buying UK spec vehicles from Europe. What the media didn't mention was that used vehicles took a dive price wise as well as those dealers weren't trading in UK spec Rangerovers in partex. The UK motor industry just had to sit the storm out as best they could.
The Citroen reaction to this was to change the LX spec Xantia and Xsara to Forte models which weren't available in Europe. The stock in the dealers was rebadged to Forte and the price reduced. The retail prices for the cars were never altered, they just added sales incentives such as the famous cashback one that ran for years. These initially applied to Forte models and not LX models. Used car prices dropped inline with new car prices so the public lost out again - Glass' guide to the rescue for the motor trade.
The C5 arrived on the scene with a new higher price and the LX was again introduced and the Forte name disappeared, ready to be reintroduced if necessary. Another facelift and then a new model has taken the C5 to well over double the price it was when the first C5 was introduced in 2000. The same with the C4. Are we earning twice as much? No. The current saviour for the motor industry has been lower interest rates. This has allowed price rises (more to where they ought to be according to the manufacturers) and still the monthly payment has been kept the same as when interest rates were higher.
The DS range has given them another pricing option through customisation. This means more profit. Ford have jumped on this bandwagon with KA customisation now.
The trouble is that free enterprise doesn't necessarily mean cheaper product - competition was good for pricing at one time but now competition doesn't mean anything. If one of them put their prices up the rest follow (gas, electricity, fuel etc.) Its shareholder driven for max profits.
The motor indrustry is now finding that bigger more important greedy players are taking their customers money, leaving nothing for new cars. Now France has refused to finance PSA anymore and they have closed a factory, putting thousands of French labourers into unemployment - unheard of before.
Who will be the first to blink and tell the EU that their new stupid emission standards were good for business to start off with but now are getting too expensive to continue.
Toyota have discontinued the Hiace diesel (petrols are worthless in the UK), whose next with Euro 6?