Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: trevor perry on November 20, 2012, 09:01:29 pm
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as you may know i am meeting with andrew willis next week to discuss aspects of his course i have been attending, i would just like as many views as possible on how they would risk the possibility of dropping a water fed pole whilst in use, your options are
HIGHLY UNLIKELY
UNLIKELY
POSSIBLE
PROBABLE
CERTAIN
many thanks
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Hi Trev
I have had the second section snap on a 60 ft pole, and the top 2 sections come crashing down, pole hose was external, luckily no one injured,
Also one of my boys left a 40 pole fully extended on the side of a building, which blew over in the wind, again no injurys, both occassions, no public could get on site.
Let you decide how that fits into your formula
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Highly unlikely.
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Hi Trev
I have had the second section snap on a 60 ft pole, and the top 2 sections come crashing down, pole hose was external, luckily no one injured,
Also one of my boys left a 40 pole fully extended on the side of a building, which blew over in the wind, again no injurys, both occassions, no public could get on site.
Let you decide how that fits into your formula
Thanks Dave, obviously leaving a 40ft pole fully extended is something that should be avoided and i am sure you took this in hand, as regards the 60ft pole was it thoroughly inspected for any damage before use, i am not asking this to point blame but rather looking at things that can be implemented to minimise this occurance without going to what i consider extreme measures of courdoning off work height of the pole
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If you factor it so an average window cleaner does what, 25 houses, so the pole could be extended and collapsed say 100 times a day minimum, so 500 times a week, 1000 times a month, 12000 a year, and it gets dropped from height once in 2 years(?), so 1 in 24000 chance, if I was a gambling man, I know what my money would be on.
Absolute joke.
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If you factor it so an average window cleaner does what, 25 houses, so the pole could be extended and collapsed say 100 times a day minimum, so 500 times a week, 1000 times a month, 12000 a year, and it gets dropped from height once in 2 years(?), so 1 in 24000 chance, if I was a gambling man, I know what my money would be on.
Absolute joke.
thanks concept i will take that as a highly unlikey then, like your figures
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If you factor it so an average window cleaner does what, 25 houses, so the pole could be extended and collapsed say 100 times a day minimum, so 500 times a week, 1000 times a month, 12000 a year, and it gets dropped from height once in 2 years(?), so 1 in 24000 chance, if I was a gambling man, I know what my money would be on.
Absolute joke.
thanks concept i will take that as a highly unlikey then
As you wish.
In 3.5 years I haven't dropped a pole, so you can change the figures to probably 42000:0
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If you factor it so an average window cleaner does what, 25 houses, so the pole could be extended and collapsed say 100 times a day minimum, so 500 times a week, 1000 times a month, 12000 a year, and it gets dropped from height once in 2 years(?), so 1 in 24000 chance, if I was a gambling man, I know what my money would be on.
Absolute joke.
thanks concept i will take that as a highly unlikey then
As you wish.
In 3.5 years I haven't dropped a pole, so you can change the figures to probably 42000:0
you had a good trainer ;)
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Any thing Is possible that's why we risk asses
And Andy runs courses for windies
What is your main reason you are meeting with his?
Corroding areas of when poleing ? When reasons
Mr Morris's post it says it all he was just lucky could
of been a different ending
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Any thing Is possible that's why we risk asses
And Andy runs courses for windies
What is your main reason you are meeting with his?
Corroding areas of when poleing ? When reasons
Mr Morris's post it says it all he was just lucky could
of been a different ending
f***s sake, it is POSSIBLE, POSSIBLE, to get hit by a bus 2moro, it's about PROBABILITY.
Ian, yes, I did, handsome chap too. Wish I could remember his name.
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Any thing Is possible that's why we risk asses
And Andy runs courses for windies
What is your main reason you are meeting with his?
Corroding areas of when poleing ? When reasons
Mr Morris's post it says it all he was just lucky could
of been a different ending
i have many reasons for talking to andrew but this survey is just to get a general opinion for filling in the the risk assessment as I disagreed from andrews opinion
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unlikely .i'm thinking . snapping a pole could happen. so could a tree blow down in high winds . you cant eliminate every possibility or can you ????
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Any thing Is possible that's why we risk asses
And Andy runs courses for windies
What is your main reason you are meeting with his?
Corroding areas of when poleing ? When reasons
Mr Morris's post it says it all he was just lucky could
of been a different ending
f***s sake, it is POSSIBLE, POSSIBLE, to get hit by a bus 2moro, it's about PROBABILITY.
Ian, yes, I did, handsome chap too. Wish I could remember his name.
always the charmer Simon lol
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I've been driving 12 years
Never had a crash
And don't intend to either
But still every day I always wear my seatbelt..
Same thing..
Potty mouth
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I've been driving 12 years
Never had a crash
And don't intend to either
But still every day I always wear my seatbelt..
Same thing..
Potty mouth
Wasn't aimed at you, just this whole subject that's been banded about on here for the last week or so.
It's all about someone trying to justify their position, nothing more.
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Possible I'd say particularly as we don't know exactly when to renew the pole or sections. I've broken top sections before and usually the pole hose stops any disaster. I also stop working when pedestrians or members of the public walk by (but that's more to stop showering them).
Cordoning off a street is pretty much impossible though.
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I've been driving 12 years
Never had a crash
And don't intend to either
But still every day I always wear my seatbelt..
Same thing..
Potty mouth
thanks colin but now i have answered why i am to meet andrew could you please give me your opinion on likelihood of dropping a pole whilst in use
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Concept
Please refrain from swearing even with ***, its not allowed
Trev
No the pole wasn't inspected and I turned the air blue, when the pole was left unnattended
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Concept
Please refrain from swearing even with ***, its not allowed
Trev
No the pole wasn't inspected and I turned the air blue, when the pole was left unnattended
Get many kids on here do we?
::)
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I've been driving 12 years
Never had a crash
And don't intend to either
But still every day I always wear my seatbelt..
Same thing..
Potty mouth
thanks colin but now i have answered why i am to meet andrew could you please give me your opinion on likelihood of dropping a pole whilst in use
As i said before mate possible
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Possible I'd say particularly as we don't know exactly when to renew the pole or sections. I've broken top sections before and usually the pole hose stops any disaster. I also stop working when pedestrians or members of the public walk by (but that's more to stop showering them).
Cordoning off a street is pretty much impossible though.
the same as
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Concept
Right from the start that has been the rules,
Its not always about kids, we don't want to offend anyone no matter what age, there are plenty who find swearing distasteful, there are plenty more ways to express yourself than swearing.
But as you mentioned kids there's many on here who have there children looking over there shoulder while browsing, or maybe leave there pc on, while they go to make a cup of tea etc.
But the bottom line is, its the forum rules
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I've been driving 12 years
Never had a crash
And don't intend to either
But still every day I always wear my seatbelt..
Same thing..
Potty mouth
thanks colin but now i have answered why i am to meet andrew could you please give me your opinion on likelihood of dropping a pole whilst in use
As i said before mate possible
So is winning the lottery POSSIBLE.
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I've been driving 12 years
Never had a crash
And don't intend to either
But still every day I always wear my seatbelt..
Same thing..
Potty mouth
thanks colin but now i have answered why i am to meet andrew could you please give me your opinion on likelihood of dropping a pole whilst in use
As i said before mate possible
So is winning the lottery POSSIBLE.
Are you seriously asking that question? ???
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If you factor it so an average window cleaner does what, 25 houses, so the pole could be extended and collapsed say 100 times a day minimum, so 500 times a week, 1000 times a month, 12000 a year, and it gets dropped from height once in 2 years(?), so 1 in 24000 chance, if I was a gambling man, I know what my money would be on.
Absolute joke.
thanks concept i will take that as a highly unlikey then
As you wish.
In 3.5 years I haven't dropped a pole, so you can change the figures to probably 42000:0
you had a good trainer ;)
Ian, you might have missed this
http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=161276.msg1341612#msg1341612
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I've been driving 12 years
Never had a crash
And don't intend to either
But still every day I always wear my seatbelt..
Same thing..
Potty mouth
thanks colin but now i have answered why i am to meet andrew could you please give me your opinion on likelihood of dropping a pole whilst in use
As i said before mate possible
So is winning the lottery POSSIBLE.
Are you seriously asking that question? ???
What question?
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I've been driving 12 years
Never had a crash
And don't intend to either
But still every day I always wear my seatbelt..
Same thing..
Potty mouth
thanks colin but now i have answered why i am to meet andrew could you please give me your opinion on likelihood of dropping a pole whilst in use
As i said before mate possible
So is winning the lottery POSSIBLE.
Are you seriously asking that question? ???
What question?
The lottery?? Ring any bells ???
I give up mate something missing from your picnic basket
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I've been driving 12 years
Never had a crash
And don't intend to either
But still every day I always wear my seatbelt..
Same thing..
Potty mouth
thanks colin but now i have answered why i am to meet andrew could you please give me your opinion on likelihood of dropping a pole whilst in use
As i said before mate possible
So is winning the lottery POSSIBLE.
THANKYOU concept this is exactly the point i was looking for, from the few people that have posted we have had answers ranging from hihgly unlikely to possible and depending on which one of these we chose to fill in risk assessment would have a large impact on how we are expected to manage the risks.
Some have posted amount pole used and the times it has been dropped and from this we can get a better likelihood rating may be as a percentage so please bear with me and can you now enter the likelihood of dropping your pole as a percentge
Below 5%
BETWEEN 5 -35%
BETWEEN 35-65%
BETWEEN 65- 95%
ABOVE 95%
Thanks
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I've been driving 12 years
Never had a crash
And don't intend to either
But still every day I always wear my seatbelt..
Same thing..
Potty mouth
thanks colin but now i have answered why i am to meet andrew could you please give me your opinion on likelihood of dropping a pole whilst in use
As i said before mate possible
So is winning the lottery POSSIBLE.
Are you seriously asking that question? ???
What question?
The lottery?? Ring any bells ???
I give up mate something missing from your picnic basket
It was a statement, not a question.
Go back and read it properly rather than patronising me.
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Below 1 % I'd say.
It's a risk but a low risk.
Id also like to know the maximum permitted height a pole can be used.
Would it be the manufacturers safe height or what? Also what guarantees do the manufacturers give that their poles are safe to use at maximum height ( don't forget one manufacturer suggests you extend your pole beyond the stop markers on each section) If it snaps can the blame be passed onto them?
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as you may know i am meeting with andrew willis next week to discuss aspects of his course i have been attending, i would just like as many views as possible on how they would risk the possibility of dropping a water fed pole whilst in use, your options are
HIGHLY UNLIKELY
UNLIKELY
POSSIBLE
PROBABLE
CERTAIN
many thanks
Trev.
Heavens forbid but we don't know id if were gonna be stuck dead tomorrow let alone drop a pole! but so long as we've risk assessed the job were working on then that's all the HSE ask of us. Please don't make things anything more complicated than necessary regarding HSE.
You've got to remember the difference between HSE and private companies that are trying to make a buck from the old H&S culture if you oblige them they'll take your money, if you understand what your legal obligations are you'll most probably find you don't even need them .
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What does the percentage matter??
If there's a chance that it will happen
it will happen one day to some one!
That is the whole point of eliminating risk..
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as you may know i am meeting with andrew willis next week to discuss aspects of his course i have been attending, i would just like as many views as possible on how they would risk the possibility of dropping a water fed pole whilst in use, your options are
HIGHLY UNLIKELY
UNLIKELY
POSSIBLE
PROBABLE
CERTAIN
many thanks
Trev.
Heavens forbid but we don't know id if were gonna be stuck dead tomorrow let alone drop a pole! but so long as we've risk assessed the job were working on then that's all the HSE ask of us. Please don't make things anything more complicated than necessary regarding HSE.
You've got to remember the difference between HSE and private companies that are trying to make a buck from the old H&S culture if you oblige them they'll take your money, if you understand what your legal obligations are you'll most probably find you don't even need them .
Spot on! ;)
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I've been driving 12 years
Never had a crash
And don't intend to either
But still every day I always wear my seatbelt..
Same thing..
Potty mouth
thanks colin but now i have answered why i am to meet andrew could you please give me your opinion on likelihood of dropping a pole whilst in use
As i said before mate possible
So is winning the lottery POSSIBLE.
THANKYOU concept this is exactly the point i was looking for, from the few people that have posted we have had answers ranging from hihgly unlikely to possible and depending on which one of these we chose to fill in risk assessment would have a large impact on how we are expected to manage the risks.
Some have posted amount pole used and the times it has been dropped and from this we can get a better likelihood rating may be as a percentage so please bear with me and can you now enter the likelihood of dropping your pole as a percentge
Below 5%
BETWEEN 5 -35%
BETWEEN 35-65%
BETWEEN 65- 95%
ABOVE 95%
Thanks
So, having collapsed and extended the pole around 100 times in a day, anyone who says any % risk, means they will drop it at height, at least once a day.
Hook at the maths in my original post on the subject, I think that's a fair reflection across the board, so you really are looking at extremely unlikely odds of it happening.
If someone really sees it as a risk or even a possibility, based on FACT, not what POTENTIALLY could happen, given ABSOLUTE WORST case scenario, then they should question their future.
Health and Safety scaremainerers create problems that don't exist to justify their position. Not saying all issues are scare tactics as in some jobs there are REAL and present dangers, not in what we do, as I have shown you with a quick calculation.
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What does the percentage matter??
If there's a chance that it will happen
it will happen one day to some one!
That is the whole point of eliminating risk..
So will you cordone off areas on each job?
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No I'm trad only!
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If my 27 ft clx dropped on a persons head it would give them concussion, if it was my 36 Brodex hydra aluminium that dropped on their head it would be lights out.
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as you may know i am meeting with andrew willis next week to discuss aspects of his course i have been attending, i would just like as many views as possible on how they would risk the possibility of dropping a water fed pole whilst in use, your options are
HIGHLY UNLIKELY
UNLIKELY
POSSIBLE
PROBABLE
CERTAIN
many thanks
Trev.
Heavens forbid but we don't know id if were gonna be stuck dead tomorrow let alone drop a pole! but so long as we've risk assessed the job were working on then that's all the HSE ask of us. Please don't make things anything more complicated than necessary regarding HSE.
You've got to remember the difference between HSE and private companies that are trying to make a buck from the old H&S culture if you oblige them they'll take your money, if you understand what your legal obligations are you'll most probably find you don't even need them .
whether we like it or not it is the law that we risk assess the work we carry out, if after the assessment is carried out there is a moderate level of risk remaining then steps should be taken to minimise this risk, so my object in this exercise is to ascertain whether further action ie courdoning of work area is necassary if a ACCURATE risk assessment is carried out.
On the IMPACT course everyone carried out an assessment and the risk remaining was moderate, these assessments where handed in as part of the course work so i am attempting to do an assessment on a percentage basis rather than a dubious likelihood rating but i need peoples views as a percentage
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lol samson
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I hear that poles over 33 ft are banned
In Holland the use of any high level poles involves a licence and the height and ergonomics has been a subject of considerable government scrutiny. For the first time water fed poles have been included in the 2004 Dutch Labour Agreement for use up to 10 metres. It is hoped to increase this height to 13 metres and above in subsequent years.
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Trevor, would you need to do fifty risk assessments a day for the average round?
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the safe clean clan clean a hotel in the town centre where i live. they put lots of signs out but they don't cordon any areas of from the public . what does that tell you.
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unlikely
and concept you are funny ;D sorry just read the whole thread and catching up,
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Trevor, would you need to do fifty risk assessments a day for the average round?
No just one that covered all likely risks on the round, if any properties have characteristics that create risks not common to your round then i would do an individual one for that property
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has anyone on this forum ever dropped a pole on anyone ever. just curious. i know some would say that's not the point and it could happen regardless. but it would be nice to know
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Trevor, I have been on the course and know what you are on about. Would you work on that street with all the poeple walking around you and under your pole to get to the door?
its not on every job(every house) but if i worked in places like the shopping centre i would do it every time, becouse if the pole did go down you would be the one who would end up deep in it.
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as you may know i am meeting with andrew willis next week to discuss aspects of his course i have been attending, i would just like as many views as possible on how they would risk the possibility of dropping a water fed pole whilst in use, your options are
HIGHLY UNLIKELY
UNLIKELY
POSSIBLE
PROBABLE
CERTAIN
many thanks
Trev.
Heavens forbid but we don't know id if were gonna be stuck dead tomorrow let alone drop a pole! but so long as we've risk assessed the job were working on then that's all the HSE ask of us. Please don't make things anything more complicated than necessary regarding HSE.
You've got to remember the difference between HSE and private companies that are trying to make a buck from the old H&S culture if you oblige them they'll take your money, if you understand what your legal obligations are you'll most probably find you don't even need them .
Spot on! ;)
is that in your opinion winpro or is that from checking your legal standing or just guessing its spot on ?
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PLEASE can i have some percentage figures
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it could be 1 in 10,000,000 but any of us could be that 1.
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as you may know i am meeting with andrew willis next week to discuss aspects of his course i have been attending, i would just like as many views as possible on how they would risk the possibility of dropping a water fed pole whilst in use, your options are
HIGHLY UNLIKELY
UNLIKELY
POSSIBLE
PROBABLE
CERTAIN
many thanks
Trev.
Heavens forbid but we don't know id if were gonna be stuck dead tomorrow let alone drop a pole! but so long as we've risk assessed the job were working on then that's all the HSE ask of us. Please don't make things anything more complicated than necessary regarding HSE.
You've got to remember the difference between HSE and private companies that are trying to make a buck from the old H&S culture if you oblige them they'll take your money, if you understand what your legal obligations are you'll most probably find you don't even need them .
Spot on! ;)
is that in your opinion winpro or is that from checking your legal standing or just guessing its spot on ?
Ian, i was decent enough to answer your questions
you seem to be avoiding 2 that are easy to answer
http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=161276.msg1341612#msg1341612
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PLEASE can i have some percentage figures
<5%
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I don't think using possible on a risk assessment is the right word because in life everything is possible even if it is 1 in a billion chance .
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I'm not sure you can use % when looking at the likelIhood of risk which is why many use a risk assessment matrix.
You have LIKELIHOOD and CONCEQUENCES and the matrix tells you the risk.
I cant upload it as the 'upload folder is full'
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In 7 years wfp use.
I can recall leaving a pole extended to about 15ft against the wall of a custies house when she came out to pay when I was working, it blew over and fell to the floor, with no damage to it or anything else.
Again last year in all the high winds in June I left a pole at 30ft against a building I was cleaning the cladding of and it fell to the floor in a gust of wind.
I understand this risk and don't (almost never ;D) leave a pole extended and unattended. I actually put it in any risk assessments that we will not leave poles this way.
So I would say the risk is rare.
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i think less than 1%, but poles should never be left standing unattended extended or not, and yes i have done it in the past.
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So the best way to manage the risk is not a cordon, but not leaving unattended extended poles?
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i think the best thing we can all do is just go and clean windows, now theres a idea!!
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Hi Trev, I'd rate the chances of it happening as highly unlikely, the odds must be in the 10's million plus so effectively, why not factor into our risk assesments the likelihood of being struck by lightening after all carbon fibre and aluminium are both conductors...
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the chances of a pole snapping or falling is a massive risk end off.
What wills etc are doing is trying to educate on thick window cleaners who ask silly questions like this :)
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on average but that should read maybe 90% ;D
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note for mr willis : move to an area other than window cleaning, most people on this site are beyond educating about health and safety 8)
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note for mr willis : move to an area other than window cleaning, most people on this site are beyond educating about health and safety 8)
Finally some one with a full picnic basket! :D
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Hi Trev is far from thick , he turned over just short of £1m last year, anyone would do well to take a leaf out of his book
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Dave it's just the line of questions just seem daft to me
No offence ment like
Do you think he could lend me a tenna then ;)
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as you may know i am meeting with andrew willis next week to discuss aspects of his course i have been attending, i would just like as many views as possible on how they would risk the possibility of dropping a water fed pole whilst in use, your options are
HIGHLY UNLIKELY
UNLIKELY
POSSIBLE
PROBABLE
CERTAIN
many thanks
Anyone experienced in these matters (i believe) should tell you this poll is flawed from the very start, you've no variables in it. The likeley hood of dropping a 12 foot pole is very small, and the likeleyhood of dropping a 60 foot pole is high. These two facts will be lessened or exacerbated by the building being totally flat and smooth or whether its got bays and recesses. And of course assumes that the poles are fully extended. This will determine where an out of control pole may rest, should one go out of control. Are you going straight up and down, are you cleaning at an angle? These facts will be assessed on any risk assesment.
Your blanket question of 'how likely is a pole to fall"? Is about as dumb as .."can someone give me a method statement and risk assesment for a commercial job".
When you go to meet him take your Abacus and your Mr.Man jotter so you can count and keep notes.
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Trev is a switched on bloke, generous as well, with both money and advice.
I am pretty much sure if he lent you a tenner, he would tell you to keep it
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the chances of a pole snapping or falling is a massive risk end off.
What wills etc are doing is trying to educate on thick window cleaners who ask silly questions like this :)
Aren't you the chap who doesn't use wfp on Georgian panes because "it rots the wood" ?
And didn't you post something about Brodex poles being good, Gardiners poles being poor value and didn't you also say you think spending £24K on an Ionics system was the best idea?
And aren't you the chap who puts up with running his hose through dog poo to keep a £7.50 customer?
Tell me I'm thinking of someone else. However the comments quoted from you above do seem to fit in with the mind set of the other stuff I've mentioned.
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I can't sleep so I've just read through 4 pages of the most boring nonsensical post I've ever had the misfortune to come across. I'm sleepy now though alrighg ;D
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as you may know i am meeting with andrew willis next week to discuss aspects of his course i have been attending, i would just like as many views as possible on how they would risk the possibility of dropping a water fed pole whilst in use, your options are
HIGHLY UNLIKELY
UNLIKELY
POSSIBLE
PROBABLE
CERTAIN
many thanks
Anyone experienced in these matters (i believe) should tell you this poll is flawed from the very start, you've no variables in it. The likeley hood of dropping a 12 foot pole is very small, and the likeleyhood of dropping a 60 foot pole is high. These two facts will be lessened or exacerbated by the building being totally flat and smooth or whether its got bays and recesses. And of course assumes that the poles are fully extended. This will determine where an out of control pole may rest, should one go out of control. Are you going straight up and down, are you cleaning at an angle? These facts will be assessed on any risk assesment.
Your blanket question of 'how likely is a pole to fall"? Is about as dumb as .."can someone give me a method statement and risk assesment for a commercial job".
When you go to meet him take your Abacus and your Mr.Man jotter so you can count and keep notes.
Thanks for this post i totally agree, the reason i put the question up is becaise these where roughly the options given whilst carrying out a risk assessment on the impact 43 course, this is how the case for courdoning off area of pole height was reached but as you say totally flawed and i am afraid if enough people do not question this flawed conclusion and all the risk assessments carried out on impact 43s course end up being looked at by the HSE then they may conclude it is considered GOOD PRACTICE for us to courdon off the work area which then means this becomes law http://www.hse.gov.uk/risk/theory/alarp2.htm
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You can't eliminate risk completely, it's more of a risk crossing a busy road than it is window cleaning with a stick
When crossing a busy road you use your common sense to reduce the risk, you don't cordon it off, gave a spotter or put on your hi viz .
This kind of over the top health and safety culture is what stifles all of our emergency services making them less effective and stifles business growth .
It needs toning down and some common sense thinking applied .
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You can't eliminate risk completely, it's more of a risk crossing a busy road than it is window cleaning with a stick
When crossing a busy road you use your common sense to reduce the risk, you don't cordon it off, gave a spotter or put on your hi viz .
This kind of over the top health and safety culture is what stifles all of our emergency services making them less effective and stifles business growth .
It needs toning down and some common sense thinking applied .
again toltally agree but now ask yourselves how do these laws that i would estimate 90% of the workforce disagree with end up becoming legislation and now you will understand my concern over courdoning off issue
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They become law because we let it become law .
Greedy solicitors jumping on every little thing to make a claim .
a loose paving slab for instance .
I had the no win no fee salesman nknock my door and when I said I had no accidents he suggested finding a loose slab and making up a claim!
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They become law because we let it become law .
Greedy solicitors jumping on every little thing to make a claim .
a loose paving slab for instance .
I had the no win no fee salesman nknock my door and when I said I had no accidents he suggested finding a loose slab and making up a claim!
Read the link i put up 4 posts above, this is part of how they become law
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Hi Trev is far from thick , he turned over just short of £1m last year, anyone would do well to take a leaf out of his book
Thanks for the compliment Dave, i dont consider myself being too bright infact my turnover this year will be a lot less due to the fact i was not clever enough to realise i was putting too many off my eggs in one basket for the last four years and instead of chasing new work spent too much time managing a large contract but lesson has been learnt
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Cordoning off on normal domestics properties =not practical .
Health and safety is down to common sense, people died on the London underground bombings because health and safety puts the people in charge at risk of prosecution, forcing them to make the wrong decision .
Window cleaning is not rocket science, use your common sense and everything will be fine .
Forced over the top health and safety will ruin the industry .
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We need to stand up and not let these H&S people speak for us
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the chances of a pole snapping or falling is a massive risk end off.
What wills etc are doing is trying to educate on thick window cleaners who ask silly questions like this :)
Aren't you the chap who doesn't use wfp on Georgian panes because "it rots the wood" ?
And didn't you post something about Brodex poles being good, Gardiners poles being poor value and didn't you also say you think spending £24K on an Ionics system was the best idea?
And aren't you the chap who puts up with running his hose through dog poo to keep a £7.50 customer?
Tell me I'm thinking of someone else. However the comments quoted from you above do seem to fit in with the mind set of the other stuff I've mentioned.
That sure is me goat, though the lads drag the pipes through ship for £7.50 not me.
Gardiners poles are overpriced
Brodex and ionic are the best comnpanys on this site, feel honored goat that i have replied to you 8)
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p.s yer spend 24k on an ionics system before ionics i cleaned houses, now hospitals airports stadiums and still of course the best of the lot houses !!
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Trev
It will not just become law over night
There will be alot of input form industry and FWC
I will personally have a good argument with them
My percentage 95%
Bryan
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Trev
It will not just become law over night
There will be alot of input form industry and FWC
I will personally have a good argument with them
My percentage 95%
Bryan
Are you sure Bryan? 95% chance of dropping your pole?
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Kenny are you causing trouble old fruit? ;D
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;D feling that way inclined, if it 1 in a billion chance of killing someone it a risk 8)
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Cordoning off on normal domestics properties =not practical .
Health and safety is down to common sense, people died on the London underground bombings because health and safety puts the people in charge at risk of prosecution, forcing them to make the wrong decision .
Window cleaning is not rocket science, use your common sense and everything will be fine .
Forced over the top health and safety will ruin the industry .
The worst 2 words in the window cleaning library "common sense", you might have oodles of it, but trying telling that to one of your lads who have flunked in school and end up working for a window cleaning company. They need hard and fast simple rules. to protect others and themselves, Health and safety and mr willis courses or iosh courses will help, not imaginary common sense.
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Sorry
Wrong way round
95% not dropping pole
Bryan
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i personally think that until the national figures show that using a extended water fed pole is an obvious danger to the public . then cordoning off areas would not happen.... which lets face it means shutting streets down in some cases.. it costs a fortune to shut the rd down . which in turn makes mr jones house in the town centre not viable...personally i think i'll wait for hover boards to be invented for us to use ......because that will come first . too many do gooders imo
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Cordoning off on normal domestics properties =not practical .
Health and safety is down to common sense, people died on the London underground bombings because health and safety puts the people in charge at risk of prosecution, forcing them to make the wrong decision .
Window cleaning is not rocket science, use your common sense and everything will be fine .
Forced over the top health and safety will ruin the industry .
The worst 2 words in the window cleaning library "common sense", you might have oodles of it, but trying telling that to one of your lads who have flunked in school and end up working for a window cleaning company. They need hard and fast simple rules. to protect others and themselves, Health and safety and mr willis courses or iosh courses will help, not imaginary common sense.
Kenny i am not arguing that training is not needed, there are many aspects about the impact course that are excellent and can do lots for both individuals and our industry, when i sit down with andrew next week i will be talking about many of the good aspects of his course but i will also be putting my opinions on how i think it could be improved, some of my opinions may be wrong as i feel his current opinion on courdoning off is wrong and i will raise my concerns over this.
Me and andrew have had quite a few differences of opinion in the past but i still admire that he invited me on his course to give my opinion, he has had quite a bit of flack upto now some of it i feel deserved other bits not deserved but i feel if everyone can give their opinion on this matter we can get a balanced view and find a workable solution.
I am glad that Bryan dolby has added his comment from the federation as they too get alot of flack when they come on the forums but i value their input and are there to help our industry i believe they introduced the IOSH training for members which is a valuable eye opener for people to attend who maybe dont realise our responsibilites as regards health and safety
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done my iosh managing safely years ago and year after studied NEBOSH. IOSH is a basic understanding of H&S and a good little course.
Loads of training providers all over the country will do IOSH courses over 2 days.
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Sorry
Wrong way round
95% not dropping pole
Bryan
Bryan could you narrow this down a bit if possible. When the pole came down/was dropped how big was the pole or what was its errected height and where where you (or the pole)?
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the chances of a pole snapping or falling is a massive risk end off.
What wills etc are doing is trying to educate on thick window cleaners who ask silly questions like this :)
learn English before calling members thick please.
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Sorry
Wrong way round
95% not dropping pole
Bryan
So you will drop your poleat least onc a day?
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the chances of a pole snapping or falling is a massive risk end off.
What wills etc are doing is trying to educate on thick window cleaners who ask silly questions like this :)
learn English before calling members thick please.
Remove that toilet roll badge before commenting please
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;D feling that way inclined, if it 1 in a billion chance of killing someone it a risk 8)
;D ;D ;D
kenny jones
;D ;D ;D
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the chances of a pole snapping or falling is a massive risk end off.
What wills etc are doing is trying to educate on thick window cleaners who ask silly questions like this :)
learn English before calling members thick please.
Remove that toilet roll badge before commenting please
Nope :P
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bottom line is we all have a duty of care towards the public, ourselves, employees etc etc, The health and safety topics always get blown out of proportion and some on here get quite spiteful towards others for daring to mention it, bottom line is to minimise risk is it not..? most of the rules that are being implied do seem to be born out of common sense, I see window cleaners quite often taking undue risks on a weekly basis but to say it will never happen to me is no grounds or evidence not to enhance your skills by working in a safer more controlled environment, a big debate on cordoning off, sometimes almost impossible to do but you can create more of a natural lanyard by working out of hours, shop fronts,we tend to use a trolley rather than trail a hose across paths often dropping the pole down if a member of the public appears, puts more time on the job I know.! getting on and off flat roofs is a big concern and I think a no no especially if you employ, it's easier than you think to mis step onto the ladder and you are usually carrying equipment the same time, the sooner that someone comes up with a flat roof clamping idea the better, even then if I had an employee going up a clamped ladder they would still need a harness and a rope grab to minimise the risk, poles being dropped, the greater the height then the greater the momentum coming down, i think it is a controllable risk upto 2nd storey but anything can happen to anyone at any time so to completely eradicate risk to others then condoning off if you can is the safest thing to do, remember most of this is a grey area until you actually have the accident and it's the mindset of some which is the biggest risk of all..!
graham