Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Moderator David@stives on November 17, 2012, 02:12:29 pm
-
Following on from recent hse posts
I attended the nvq course run by Impact 43, one of the interesting points was.
I asked Andrew what was the correct procedure for climbing onto a flat roof, his answer basically was, "the correct procedure if you had any sense, was to just leave that window and don't clean it"
then gave the following reply
How much could that £1.00 bedroom window above a flat roof cost you if there was to be an accident, i,e one of yous staff had a fall/ you as an owner operator fell on to an old lady coming out of here back door.
That £1.00 could add up to
Loss of earnings
Hospital visits
potential HSE prosecution
Damage to your reputation
potential civil court action
Compensation
Increased insurance premiums
Clients reluctant to employ you
Bad publicity in the papers
Which could typically cost you £100k
Is this all far fetched, or do you think that £1.00 is worth it.
My view is I don't want to clean from flat roofs, but on the odd occassion we are forced into it, I am not comfortable with it, but we do it. We dont clean any windows above flat roofs on domestics, we are now filtering out the commercial ones
I, Personally as an employer I am worried every single day that my boys are out working, we try to tick all the H&S boxes, but there is still an element of fingers crossed and hope.
This is one reason I endeavour to give my staff as much training as is practicably possible
-
Why not stop them driving your vans aswel then? The risk of a road accident is pretty high. The fact is some times it has to be done-keep it safe and infrequent and the odds are reduced a lot
-
Following on from recent hse posts
I attended the nvq course run by Impact 43, one of the interesting points was.
I asked Andrew what was the correct procedure for climbing onto a flat roof, his answer basically was, "the correct procedure if you had any sense, was to just leave that window and don't clean it"
then gave the following reply
How much could that £1.00 bedroom window above a flat roof cost you if there was to be an accident, i,e one of yous staff had a fall/ you as an owner operator fell on to an old lady coming out of here back door.
That £1.00 could add up to
Loss of earnings
Hospital visits
potential HSE prosecution
Damage to your reputation
potential civil court action
Compensation
Increased insurance premiums
Clients reluctant to employ you
Bad publicity in the papers
Which could typically cost you £100k
Is this all far fetched, or do you think that £1.00 is worth it.
My view is I don't want to clean from flat roofs, but on the odd occassion we are forced into it, I am not comfortable with it, but we do it. We dont clean any windows above flat roofs on domestics, we are now filtering out the commercial ones
I, Personally as an employer I am worried every single day that my boys are out working, we try to tick all the H&S boxes, but there is still an element of fingers crossed and hope.
This is one reason I endeavour to give my staff as much training as is practicably possible
But David Willis stated that in order to stay within the law we should not clean off flat roofs. So his starting point is that you breach H&S law by doing so and from that the consequences you listed would obviously follow. We know that this is not true, so he has had an impact on your business based upon his misunderstanding of the law. If I were you I would be mightily cheesed off with him.
-
Steve
You are missing the point, He has not had and impact on me in that way.
I was always struggling with flat roofs, long before that course
I would be more cheesed off if someone said it was ok to climb on flat roofs, and I had an accident,
As for driving, it is now an accepted part of the modern world, climbing on flat roofs when you dont have to, is different altogether, although driving is now subject to risk assessment, by employers
-
Steve
You are missing the point, He has not had and impact on me in that way.
Even if not, if his advice starts with the premise that it is illegal to work from flat roofs, then following that he would not be teaching how to safely work on them. I would rather be told how to safely do something and make my own decision rather than be told that I can't do something because it is unlawful, when it isn't.
What next, tree surgeons leaving the awkward shoots because they involve a little more thought/effort to reach? To me, leaving a window that I can perfectly safely reach just because in order to clean it involves getting onto a perfectly safe flat roof is the same as leaving awkward to reach shoot on a tree I am supposed to prune - an incomplete job.
-
Steve
You are missing the point, He has not had and impact on me in that way.
Even if not, if his advice starts with the premise that it is illegal to work from flat roofs, then following that he would not be teaching how to safely work on them. I would rather be told how to safely do something and make my own decision rather than be told that I can't do something because it is unlawful, when it isn't.
What next, tree surgeons leaving the awkward shoots because they involve a little more thought/effort to reach? To me, leaving a window that I can perfectly safely reach just because in order to clean it involves getting onto a perfectly safe flat roof is the same as leaving awkward to reach shoot on a tree I am supposed to prune - an incomplete job.
have you ever fallen from a flat roof do you employ ?
-
Steve
You are missing the point, He has not had and impact on me in that way.
Even if not, if his advice starts with the premise that it is illegal to work from flat roofs, then following that he would not be teaching how to safely work on them. I would rather be told how to safely do something and make my own decision rather than be told that I can't do something because it is unlawful, when it isn't.
What next, tree surgeons leaving the awkward shoots because they involve a little more thought/effort to reach? To me, leaving a window that I can perfectly safely reach just because in order to clean it involves getting onto a perfectly safe flat roof is the same as leaving awkward to reach shoot on a tree I am supposed to prune - an incomplete job.
If what Mr Willis said is true, or even if it becomes true in future, and flat roof cleaning is banned it will become a massive step backwards for the window cleaning industry.
I have been involved with window cleaning since 1992, in that time the industry has shifted from one man outfits (a guy with a ladder and a bucket) to the larger more professional outfits we see nowadays.
Think about it, if you were to employ someone to clean your house windows and the HSE compliant 'professional' company told you they could not clean certain windows due to HSE rules there will be someone out there who doesn't give a monkeys about the HSE and will clean them, probably for less money. Who would you choose? This would just open the door to cowboys.
I would rather pay for training that would cover this sort of thing, than fork out money for someone to tell me just to leave the window altogether, even if the initial advice is to do your utmost to avoid flat roofs.
Personally I don't even carry ladders any more, and we don't clean from flat roofs as a general rule, but all the training in working from height, manual handling etc we have had has covered the issue rather than just avoid it altogether.
Surely a safety training course which misses a huge safety issue out altogether is only going to add to the problem? People will continue to clean from flat roofs whether the HSE says they are 'allowed' or not.
-
Why did I bring flat roofs into it ?
From my POV, you can't climb safely onto and off a flat roof, with just a temporary ladder and no other safety measures. Every time i get off a flat roof on to a ladder, there is always a moment where i say please dont slip as I step onto the ladder
That Tree surgeon, will probably have the full kit, properly trained, harnesses and climbing ropes etc. maybe even an nvq in tree surgery
-
when i took out employee liability insurance they asked,are you a ladder type firm or a water pole type firm, they based the premiums on which one i was. it sounded to me as if you cannot be both
-
i wish we could stop all this bl***y big brother culture and go back to letting intelligent adults make common sense decisions and if we make a bad decision and have a fall we have to take responsibility for it..simples
-
Why did I bring flat roofs into it ?
From my POV, you can't climb safely onto and off a flat roof, with just a temporary ladder and no other safety measures. Every time i get off a flat roof on to a ladder, there is always a moment where i say please dont slip as I step onto the ladder
That Tree surgeon, will probably have the full kit, properly trained, harnesses and climbing ropes etc. maybe even an nvq in tree surgery
I know what you are getting at, that is why I bought a ladder standoff that sits on the roof, this stops the chance of ladders slipping backwards and improves the chances of ladder spin. I never done this in the past as my ladder stand off was heavy and awkward, but the newer ones are very light and easy to handle and I just leave it on the ladder permanently for the few occasions I use it.
a job I am doing tomorrow has a full floor of about 100 windows that requires a ladder to get up to the roof, once up there, there is a safety rail and safety wire which we hook onto with full body harness,
in hindsight if it was my contract I would insist on an eye bolt fitted so the ladder could be strapped to the wall, but it isn't and there isn't
-
Why is a flat roof such a risk. Excuse my ignorance that a slanted roof does not have? Like so many house have at the front or back extensions. Climbing of any roof on to a ladder is a risk to me so I always secure the ladder to the wall. The give me the security feeling when I climb down. When I first started window cleaning I did not like walking on a flat roof as I would not know if the timber base was strong enough to support my weight.
-
Oh no, a flat roof, run for your life!! :-\
Don't mean to ruin your topic Dave, but it's all bit ludicrous if you ask me. C'mon now people. Lets all use our brains for a minute before we do something. :-X
-
I know it might be ludicrous, but if one of my guys fell then i would have to deal with all the issues raised in the original post.
hence the true cost of an accident
-
I know it might be ludicrous, but if one of my guys fell then i would have to deal with all the issues raised in the original post.
hence the true cost of an accident
Should you really employ them if they lack the IQ to work from a flat roof safely?
This whole stuff is really getting on my nerves, it's really beyond belief.
-
altho over the top i see where Dave is coming from - i get that 'wheres the ladder going feeling' when stepping back
on even when i know it's well grounded and footed.
i would out of any ladder work be happiest going from ladder to flat roof and back than any other ladder work
(ie cleaning a window off ladders - and i certainly wouldn't step off a ladder onto a pitched roof)
it's not about what you feel is right or wrong but if the worst happens it's what HSE will decide was right/wrong or
indiffrent. - on the few windows i have that are totally impossible to get wfp from the ground i will do while
some1 foots the ladder - no staff use ladders
Mr Souter also has a point - i recently quoted a 3 storey gutter clear ( rented out flats ) - easy front but rear difficault access due to glass porch/greenhouse affair - priced it up using gutter vac - insured - HSE etc..
job went to some1 who was prepared to do it cheaper and hiring a 3 meter triple ladder - no insurance etc..
so the same could apply to flat roof working...
I fell from a ladder 15ft for a £5 job - lucky enough i suffered brusing only - so changed to wfp and take every care on H&S i can
Darran
-
QCF
Ok I will employ more intelligent window cleaners from now on, why didn't i think of that sooner ?
-
QCF
Ok I will employ more intelligent window cleaners from now on, why didn't i think of that sooner ?
Good, no more worries then.
-
I think more accidents a caused by accidentally poking yourself in the eye with safety glasses than falling from a flat roof.
Oh at btw, I charge more than £1 per window
-
I once had to hold the head still of a man who had fallen through a sky light that was fitted into a flat foof. The skylight was covered with leaves and he did not know it was there.
I held his head still while we waited for the ambulance. He had fallen onto a bare concrete floor. The result was a broken cheek bone, fractured skull, broken back in 2 places, broken pelvis and a broken leg and ankle.
It was his second day on the job.
I did not really find out what had happened to him (he was a sub contractor to the company I was working for) until a chance meeting some years later. Thankfully he survived.
He now walks still with crutches (over 12 years on) and will never work again. He was around 30 years of age at the time.
The HSE fined the company I was working for over the incident.
ACCIDENT CAN AND DO HAPPEN.
-
so every flat roofer i see replacing a leaking falt roof is breaking the law!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
aload of leaking roof then ;)
-
Accidents can and do have, but that isnt a good enough reason to stop using flat roofs
-
so every flat roofer i see replacing a leaking falt roof is breaking the law!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
aload of leaking roof then ;)
Did Andrew say that it was a criminal offence to work off a flat roof? I dont think he did
-
so every flat roofer i see replacing a leaking falt roof is breaking the law!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
aload of leaking roof then ;)
Did Andrew say that it was a criminal offence to work off a flat roof? I dont think he did
he got to get up there somehow. ;) ;) ;)and does scaffold get used on dommestic houses. ;)
-
I don't think a higher IQ would of helped on this one, or the hundreds who fall each year
-
so every flat roofer i see replacing a leaking falt roof is breaking the law!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
aload of leaking roof then ;)
Did Andrew say that it was a criminal offence to work off a flat roof? I dont think he did
no he said the law was clear, when it isn't
-
so every flat roofer i see replacing a leaking falt roof is breaking the law!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
aload of leaking roof then ;)
Did Andrew say that it was a criminal offence to work off a flat roof? I dont think he did
Pretty much:
"The key is having an understanding of the law
Not working from flat roofs
Correct signage and positioning of cones and signs
Creating safety zones
Working within law and health and safety guidance
This includes ladder and water fed pole"
-
so every flat roofer i see replacing a leaking falt roof is breaking the law!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
aload of leaking roof then ;)
Did Andrew say that it was a criminal offence to work off a flat roof? I dont think he did
Pretty much:
"The key is having an understanding of the law
Not working from flat roofs
Correct signage and positioning of cones and signs
Creating safety zones
Working within law and health and safety guidance
This includes ladder and water fed pole"
So no then. It seems its just a pejorative opinion.
I wont stop using flat roofs
-
I don't think a higher IQ would of helped on this one, or the hundreds who fall each year
You are right on that one, common sense would have, even people with a high IQ don't necessarily have that.
Walking around of a leaf covered roof, with no idea what is underneath, whether there are hazards or if the roof would have been structurally sound should have rang alarm bells everywhere! :o
This is about safely accessing a roof and working safely off of it and the HSE point of view on this.
This flat roof malarkey really reminds me of Ionic's zero ppb marketing, but then in H&S!!
-
Do hundreds of window cleaners fall off of flat roofs each year?
-
Do hundreds of window cleaners fall off of flat roofs each year?
millions ;D
-
Short-duration work on flat roofs
‘Short duration’ means a matter of minutes rather than hours. It includes such
jobs as brief inspections or minor adjustment to a television aerial. Work on a flat
roof is still dangerous even if it only lasts a short time. Appropriate safety
measures are essential.
It may not be reasonably practicable to provide edge protection during shortduration work. The minimum requirements for short-duration work on a roof are:
■ a safe means of access to the roof level; and
■ a safe means of working on the roof – a harness with a sufficiently short lanyard
that it prevents the wearer from reaching a position from which they could fall
and attached to a secure anchorage.
Where safety harnesses are used they must be:
■ appropriate for the user and in good condition;
■ securely attached to an anchorage point of sufficient strength; and
■ actually used – tight management discipline is needed to ensure this.
-
Guidance from HSE site
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg284.pdf
-
Guidance from HSE site
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg284.pdf
I quoted this on the other thread to show David Willis that working on flat roofs did not breach HSE guidelines.
-
me need to get on a course i think,when you coming to bristol ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
-
To summarise if I want to clean a window safely on a flat roof I can. If I'm paying someone its far too dangerous, not if they fall, but if they sue
-
This is the reason I'll only ever work on pitched & thatched roofs ;D ;D ;D
Flat roofs are way too dangerous
-
What would have happened if the Earth had indeed turned out to be flat?
-
believe it or not on an estate I work on. There are 2 trad windowcleaner who have to work off pitched roof/canopies everyday on nearly every house. its scary to watch!!!!! ladders up, onto the roof then clean all the front top windows whilst trying to keep there balance.
His price to pay would certainly not been able to work for a good while. Why do people still take these risks. :o
-
there you have it Kent - for some reason people still think its Macho to risk life and limb and your just a wimp
for thinking safety.
now ask the engineers i know who have lost an eye because they thought it was wimpy to wear safety googles ::)
Darran
-
Guidance from HSE site
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg284.pdf
I quoted this on the other thread to show David Willis that working on flat roofs did not breach HSE guidelines.
Steve could you explain step by step what you do when working on a flat roof and how you access it starting with the equipment you use. I would be interested to see the points your making
-
So we cannot work on flat roofs now then ;D
This gets better and better
I am now worried about people walking down the road, afterall they might trip on the curb stone
Do we really need people like Mr Willis telling us we cannot work on flat roofs ? f
-
He didn't say we can't, just says way up the cost first if something goes wrong
-
Yep they! do my friend and best mates foster dad I grew up with died last year falling off a ledge when stepping back on a ladder he had been on ladders over 30 years my friends held his head together till the amulance arrived another had to break his leg more as he was hnging upside down, he never regained consciousness again god rest his soul he was pronounced dead at the hospitlal he left behind 6 kids 2 of which were under 5 very sad it was shocking to be called an told this, then having to tell my friend the guy he looked at like his dad was dead. If this sends chills down your spine and makes you think seriously then good as accidents really do happen and can happen to you or anyone.
The old saying "it is better to be safe than sorry" rings true don't you think
-
He didn't say we can't, just says way up the cost first if something goes wrong
OK he maybe never directly said you can't:
The key is having an understanding of the law
Not working from flat roofs
Correct signage and positioning of cones and signs
Creating safety zones
Working within law and health and safety guidance
This includes ladder and water fed pole
What’s going to effect a lot of the Clean It Up sole traders is not having clear understanding of what’s right and wrong.
You only have to look at some of the posts we get about the course and Impact to see a lot of these traders are going to have problems.
You can’t make sound decisions if you don’t have the correct information.
What is for sure, the policing of compliance will get stricter.
The HSE and the EHO in particular will have a revenue stream, this will create a proactive drive in enforcement.
If you get caught working unsafely it’s going to cost you as cleaner.
I am sure already your reading between the lines, they are going to be a lot more vigilant.
The implication is there though.
The thing that worries me is, he is identifying flat roofs as a safety issue but does not address the issue as to how they should be dealt with.
Sorry but 'just don't do it' doesn't cut it.
Are you telling me that every window above a flat roof in the country, nay the world should remain dirty until the power of levitation is conquered?
What if other industries started employing this attitude? If more safety equipment is required then I'd expect a training course to tell me exactly what, why and how. As many of you have pointed out this is a major issue in our industry. Accidents happen.
There are windows above flat roofs: FACT
We are professional window cleaners: (mostly) FACT
We should be equipped to clean windows: (surely) FACT
I agree that all risks should be avoided wherever possible. But Impact 43 is a window cleaning specific safety training company, it should cover all safety issues that arise when cleaning windows.
I am not saying Mr Willis is wrong in telling his customers to avoid flat roofs wherever possible, I'm just saying that cleaning from flat roofs is part of the window cleaning industry, and to simply say 'don't do it' is missing the point.
-
Guidance from HSE site
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg284.pdf
I quoted this on the other thread to show David Willis that working on flat roofs did not breach HSE guidelines.
Steve could you explain step by step what you do when working on a flat roof and how you access it starting with the equipment you use. I would be interested to see the points your making
I put a ladder up, I climb up the ladder and step on the roof. I walk to the window, I clean it. I walk back to the ladder. I climb down it. I put the ladder away.
Then I get in my van and head off behind the man with the red flag. ::)
-
Today I worked from a flat roof (and survived) I used my ladder with stabilizers stepped off and cleaned a large residential window. The only time I was near the edge was to climb back down the ladder.
Have I broken the law?
If so, what happens now?
-
It's not correct to say anyone is "Breaking the law" as you put it.
H&S regs are there as a protecion and are mostly applied after the event of an accident at which point there may/may not be a fine/cost levied if blame can be attributed.
As a responsible person a single self employed person will do all he can to not cause an accident, either to himself or anyone else.
If an accident occurs their will be a cost, either because he has injured himself, injured someone else or caused damage.
If he has insurance they will no doubt try to get out of paying if they can. They do this by looking at your work practice and if it is contry to H&S regs you can be sure their lawyers will find it. If however it is a small claim it may be cheaper to settle rather than look into it.
As an employer it is a different matter to some degree.
The employer has a duty of care to the employee and therefore should take seriously this duty of care.
That may be by providing sufficient breaks, equality or the H&S of the employee. They also have to care for the welfare of the employee. This is covered in NEBOSH.
If an accident occurs there will again be a cost, be it to the employee, someone else or property.
The cost is now greater as the insurance company will again see if they can get out of it, plus the employee will remain a cost to the employer either through wages or because they have to train someone new.
They could also sue if they wanted claiming lack of care or training or whatever.
Add to that the point that if an accident happens to an employee and they are off for so many days it has to be reported to the HSE.
There is now a cost in the time taken up just investigating let alone the cost of any fine.
From that point of view the OP make a very good point, Is it worth the cost?
So how do we assess it?
For a single self employed person with only himself to think about the prosess is simple. More complex for the employer however.
What I think many mistakenly do is presume they have to take every job that comes along. It's not what the Dragons do on DD.
They look at the offer and if they dont like it they dont get involved, if they do but have reservations they counter offer at a more favorable rate for them.
If its a 'no-brainer' they compete for the investment.
They want to make as much money for as little risk as possible.
Window cleaning is no different, make as much money for as little risk. It may mean we have to weigh things in the balance and reject a job.
For me that is now to refuse ladder access work. Why? Because it isnt worth the risk.
-
From an employer's viewpoint, any safety issue is a nightmare. All physical activity involves an element of risk and the Health and Safety circus, along with the spin-off training industry will never be able to eliminate every risk so the employer will always be the target of unscrupulous litigation.
The more I hear of the ever escalating mountain of regulations, the more I am convinced that Health and Safety has become a self propagating entity - regulations beget more regulations until we will all, in every walk of life, drown in them.
The individual is no longer allowed to accept responsibility for his/her own safety: in any situation we will all be required to adhere to regulations laid down by someone else.
This is attacking the problem from completely the wrong angle: we are all being viewed as incompetent to make informed decisions for ourselves, everything must be seen in the light of someone else's opinion as to how we should behave.
The result of this thinking is that no-one is actually responsible for their own mishaps. Regardless of what foolhardy or reckless actions they undertake, it isn't their fault for doing it, the fault lies with someone else for not ensuring they were given the 'proper' training for whatever specific activity resulted in the accident.
WE ARE ALL GIVEN TRAINING IN SELF PRESERVATION. It's called 'growing up' - the experiences we get through the process of advancing from the innocence of the infant to the point where, as adults, our life experiences equip us to make informed and sensible decisions regarding our personal safety. If we ignore what experience tells us and take avoidable risks which result in injury, then we have only ourselves to blame.
To put this in terms of the 'flat roof' situation:
We do not need training to teach us that falling from a flat roof is dangerous. As sensible and competent adults, we are quite capable of making the decision not to approach the edge of the roof as that increases the risk of falling off. We can also appreciate the increase in danger if there is a hurricane blowing. What we need is suggestion and advice "It might be safer if you were to attach yourself via a lanyard to a secure anchor point" etc. Having been given the advice our decision is then ours, and ours alone - we should not be required, by law, to follow that advice.
To illustrate:
Last week one of my franchisees fell in exactly the situation as being discussed here. He wanted to clean a window above a flat roof and used a ladder to access the roof. As he approached the top of the ladder the foot slid away, causing him to fall.
Now: when he joined us I gave him the benefit of my long experience in the safe use of ladders. In other words, I gave him advice. One piece of advice (amongst many others) was that before he climbed a ladder it would be sensible to test the ground with his foot, to see if it were slippery or not, and to use his own experience to decide as to suitable grounding for the ladder. You don't need to be told that setting a ladder on ice is not a good idea, or on greasy concrete, or (as in this case) on damp decking!! I gave him all the advice he needed to form decisions regarding his own safety. In other words, I trained him.
He was in full possession of all the information he needed to make his decision, but he ignored my advice, set his ladder on the decking and inevitably fell. Should that be a criminal offence?
I reminded him of what he had been told (and the exhaustive practical exercises) and said what I truly believe: EVERY FALL FROM A LADDER IS ENTIRELY THE FAULT OF THE USER. He agreed with me.
I do not believe that the above should be the subject of reams of legislation, all that does is relieves the individual of his own culpability.
As a completely different aspect of personal health and safety I think there is an element of hypocrisy in current thinking. We are under legal requirement to adhere to regulations preventing us (supposedly) from taking all sorts of risks and yet the Government turns a blind eye to one of the most destructive risks of all: Smoking.
How does deliberately inhaling lungsful of toxins and carcinogenics differ from deliberately standing on the edge of a flat roof? Either can (and in the case of smoking probably will) kill you. Why is the one ignored, while the other is treated as a heinous offence?
-
From an employer's viewpoint, any safety issue is a nightmare. All physical activity involves an element of risk and the Health and Safety circus, along with the spin-off training industry will never be able to eliminate every risk so the employer will always be the target of unscrupulous litigation.
The more I hear of the ever escalating mountain of regulations, the more I am convinced that Health and Safety has become a self propagating entity - regulations beget more regulations until we will all, in every walk of life, drown in them.
The individual is no longer allowed to accept responsibility for his/her own safety: in any situation we will all be required to adhere to regulations laid down by someone else.
This is attacking the problem from completely the wrong angle: we are all being viewed as incompetent to make informed decisions for ourselves, everything must be seen in the light of someone else's opinion as to how we should behave.
The result of this thinking is that no-one is actually responsible for their own mishaps. Regardless of what foolhardy or reckless actions they undertake, it isn't their fault for doing it, the fault lies with someone else for not ensuring they were given the 'proper' training for whatever specific activity resulted in the accident.
WE ARE ALL GIVEN TRAINING IN SELF PRESERVATION. It's called 'growing up' - the experiences we get through the process of advancing from the innocence of the infant to the point where, as adults, our life experiences equip us to make informed and sensible decisions regarding our personal safety. If we ignore what experience tells us and take avoidable risks which result in injury, then we have only ourselves to blame.
To put this in terms of the 'flat roof' situation:
We do not need training to teach us that falling from a flat roof is dangerous. As sensible and competent adults, we are quite capable of making the decision not to approach the edge of the roof as that increases the risk of falling off. We can also appreciate the increase in danger if there is a hurricane blowing. What we need is suggestion and advice "It might be safer if you were to attach yourself via a lanyard to a secure anchor point" etc. Having been given the advice our decision is then ours, and ours alone - we should not be required, by law, to follow that advice.
To illustrate:
Last week one of my franchisees fell in exactly the situation as being discussed here. He wanted to clean a window above a flat roof and used a ladder to access the roof. As he approached the top of the ladder the foot slid away, causing him to fall.
Now: when he joined us I gave him the benefit of my long experience in the safe use of ladders. In other words, I gave him advice. One piece of advice (amongst many others) was that before he climbed a ladder it would be sensible to test the ground with his foot, to see if it were slippery or not, and to use his own experience to decide as to suitable grounding for the ladder. You don't need to be told that setting a ladder on ice is not a good idea, or on greasy concrete, or (as in this case) on damp decking!! I gave him all the advice he needed to form decisions regarding his own safety. In other words, I trained him.
He was in full possession of all the information he needed to make his decision, but he ignored my advice, set his ladder on the decking and inevitably fell. Should that be a criminal offence?
I reminded him of what he had been told (and the exhaustive practical exercises) and said what I truly believe: EVERY FALL FROM A LADDER IS ENTIRELY THE FAULT OF THE USER. He agreed with me.
I do not believe that the above should be the subject of reams of legislation, all that does is relieves the individual of his own culpability.
As a completely different aspect of personal health and safety I think there is an element of hypocrisy in current thinking. We are under legal requirement to adhere to regulations preventing us (supposedly) from taking all sorts of risks and yet the Government turns a blind eye to one of the most destructive risks of all: Smoking.
How does deliberately inhaling lungsful of toxins and carcinogenics differ from deliberately standing on the edge of a flat roof? Either can (and in the case of smoking probably will) kill you. Why is the one ignored, while the other is treated as a heinous offence?
I think this is the best post of the whole discussion showing true COMMON SENSE but unfortunately this is not the world we live in now so have no option but to adapt accordingly, as you rightly stated there are hundreds of issues far worse than what we are discussing that seem to get the go ahead whilst knowingly killing thousands of people ???
-
Precisely, much of it boils down to money (particularly with smoking). We really are in a no win situation it seems. Because there are no hard and fast rules with health and safety it would appear the blame can be pushed all over the place from the operator to the employer and onwards to the householder - it could even be suggested his decking wasn't kept in a safe condition.
-
Incidentally did anyone see the Indian Oceans programme over the weekend? They showed the ship scrapyards in India where they reckon eight workers a month die due to falls mostly from the hulks.
-
Thanks for that post Ian.
-
A great post Ian as usual.
I really believe that most health and safety issues are driven by insurance companies that want to minimise risk, they want your money but don't want to pay out on any claim.
If the activity that you are engaged in during your leisure activities is not covered by any insurance policy, you can do whatever the hell you like.
I have never had to make a claim in all my years of window cleaning, I do however own my own house outright, and have too much to lose by doing anything that wouldn't be covered by my policy. I have now only one flat roof that I have to get onto and will filter this out shortly.
Suppose jack the lad notices that his flat roof has developed a leak. I'm sure we have all encountered the old felt roof laid over chipboard. Jack hatches a plan to replace his roof at your expense, so he askes for and accepts your qote. You can see where I'm coming from, and it's so easy for him to set you up unless you have already considered this possibility.
So it's not only the risk to safety we have to take into account when considering the cost, just getting on a flat roof can be very expensive too.
My main worry is access to balconies, I hate doing them but they do pay well. I always do these myself as my lad hates height, but at the age of 70 I really have to consider how much longer I can do this type of work. If I fell 10 ft these days I would be like humpty bloody dumpty.
-
He was in full possession of all the information he needed to make his decision, but he ignored my advice, set his ladder on the decking and inevitably fell. Should that be a criminal offence?
Although I agree with your post the fact is that had that been an employee not a franchisee YOU would have been at fault. Not only do you have to train them you have to ensure that they follow the training given.
Did you know that in summer we have to ensure that our employees wear suncream. That is not to say we have to simply supply it, we have to ensure they use it.
Do I agree with that? No. But if I don't adhere to it I am leaving myself open to all sorts of problems.
The problem with most health and safety people is that they are not interested in the health or safety of anyone. All they are interested in is ensuring that their companies / clients are not held responsible if / when something goes wrong. It is a blame culture we live in. It is very sad but it's true.
-
He was in full possession of all the information he needed to make his decision, but he ignored my advice, set his ladder on the decking and inevitably fell. Should that be a criminal offence?
Although I agree with your post the fact is that had that been an employee not a franchisee YOU would have been at fault. Not only do you have to train them you have to ensure that they follow the training given.
Did you know that in summer we have to ensure that our employees wear suncream. That is not to say we have to simply supply it, we have to ensure they use it.
Do I agree with that? No. But if I don't adhere to it I am leaving myself open to all sorts of problems.
The problem with most health and safety people is that they are not interested in the health or safety of anyone. All they are interested in is ensuring that their companies / clients are not held responsible if / when something goes wrong. It is a blame culture we live in. It is very sad but it's true.
You are in Scotland. What are you doing with suncream..?
-
Short-duration work on flat roofs
‘Short duration’ means a matter of minutes rather than hours. It includes such
jobs as brief inspections or minor adjustment to a television aerial. Work on a flat
roof is still dangerous even if it only lasts a short time. Appropriate safety
measures are essential.
It may not be reasonably practicable to provide edge protection during shortduration work. The minimum requirements for short-duration work on a roof are:
■ a safe means of access to the roof level; and
■ a safe means of working on the roof – a harness with a sufficiently short lanyard
that it prevents the wearer from reaching a position from which they could fall
and attached to a secure anchorage.Where safety harnesses are used they must be:
■ appropriate for the user and in good condition;
■ securely attached to an anchorage point of sufficient strength; and
■ actually used – tight management discipline is needed to ensure this.
Trouble is that these things have to be tested by a qualified person with the right equipment annually with regard to commercial. The call out fee and test costs over £400.00 + VAT. I don't know what the story is for residential. Our Middlesbrough Council had a whole lot of ladder tieoffs installed into their council houses so workmen could secure their ladders. This must have been 10 years ago.
I have seen a few trad cleaners about over the years, but never seen them use these anchor points and don't even know if they are tested annually.
-
He was in full possession of all the information he needed to make his decision, but he ignored my advice, set his ladder on the decking and inevitably fell. Should that be a criminal offence?
Although I agree with your post the fact is that had that been an employee not a franchisee YOU would have been at fault. Not only do you have to train them you have to ensure that they follow the training given.
Did you know that in summer we have to ensure that our employees wear suncream. That is not to say we have to simply supply it, we have to ensure they use it.
Do I agree with that? No. But if I don't adhere to it I am leaving myself open to all sorts of problems.
The problem with most health and safety people is that they are not interested in the health or safety of anyone. All they are interested in is ensuring that their companies / clients are not held responsible if / when something goes wrong. It is a blame culture we live in. It is very sad but it's true.
As it happens I have a solution to your problems............ ;D
-
He was in full possession of all the information he needed to make his decision, but he ignored my advice, set his ladder on the decking and inevitably fell. Should that be a criminal offence?
Although I agree with your post the fact is that had that been an employee not a franchisee YOU would have been at fault. Not only do you have to train them you have to ensure that they follow the training given.
Did you know that in summer we have to ensure that our employees wear suncream. That is not to say we have to simply supply it, we have to ensure they use it.
Do I agree with that? No. But if I don't adhere to it I am leaving myself open to all sorts of problems.
The problem with most health and safety people is that they are not interested in the health or safety of anyone. All they are interested in is ensuring that their companies / clients are not held responsible if / when something goes wrong. It is a blame culture we live in. It is very sad but it's true.
As it happens I have a solution to your problems............ ;D
Care to elaborate?
-
Franchise I would presume rather than employ.
-
He was in full possession of all the information he needed to make his decision, but he ignored my advice, set his ladder on the decking and inevitably fell. Should that be a criminal offence?
Although I agree with your post the fact is that had that been an employee not a franchisee YOU would have been at fault. Not only do you have to train them you have to ensure that they follow the training given.
Did you know that in summer we have to ensure that our employees wear suncream. That is not to say we have to simply supply it, we have to ensure they use it.
Do I agree with that? No. But if I don't adhere to it I am leaving myself open to all sorts of problems.
The problem with most health and safety people is that they are not interested in the health or safety of anyone. All they are interested in is ensuring that their companies / clients are not held responsible if / when something goes wrong. It is a blame culture we live in. It is very sad but it's true.
As it happens I have a solution to your problems............ ;D
Care to elaborate?
You said it yourself!! If your employees were franchisees, you wouldn't have any of the problems associated with employing.
Click below for more info
-
perfect answer windows that cant be reached from the ground will not be able to be cleaned
that £1 is just not worth it or that one window on a smaller scale you might feel you can walk on a tiled roof to reach that window i once cracked a tile which needed to be cut and ordered and fitted by a professional at a cost of £60 customer was given 3x free cleans i learnt my lesson
-
That happened to me. Cost £70. Don't do it anymore, that window that is.