Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Stephen Fox on November 04, 2012, 10:02:11 am
-
Gardiner/Facelift pole length and weight debacle
First of all I would like to thank everyone who has commented on the Facelift threads over the last few weeks, both positive and negative, . It has been invaluable and the feedback truly appreciated. What an eye opener! The Phoenix range is the first product from the 'new' Facelift since we bought them last year, the learning curve has been tremendous!
To move Facelift into the modern world of window cleaning we needed a better pole. So we started with, what is in our mind, the current leader - Gardiners and aimed to make a product, if possible, that was better. Personally I believe unless you can produce something of value, why bother? No one needs a second rate knock off, if we can't come out with what we believe is a better product, we may as well close shop.
Seeing as Alex has years of pole building and selling experience, along with a great reputation, we have used his range as our current template therefore taking what Gardiners deems 'correct' we have adopted.
Pole Lengths
This is where the lengths come in. Basically whatever extended pole lengths Alex uses we, I hate to say it, have copied and labeled as our equivalent version. We have the pretty much exact same tube sizes. So for example, If Alex says an 18, 22, etc is his stated specs then we have to assume the same and that this is the accepted norm.
Now, we never wanted to get into a tit for tat with another supplier, but Alex has gone for an out an out attack of Facelift (which he's interestingly never done before with other companies) going as far as releasing a video to slate the range which he has since taken down when we responded with ours.
The acts on pole lengths: (Here are some stated extended lengths from Gardiners website)
CLX/SLX poles
CLX 10 - 3.01m - 9.10ft
CLX 14 - 4m - 13.1ft
CLX/SLX 18 - 5.22m - 17.1ft
CLX/SLX 22 - 6.39m - 20.11ft
CLX/SLX 27 - 8.10m - 26.6ft
SLX 25 - 7.62m - 25ft
SLX 30 - 9m - 29.6ft
SLX 35 - 10.34m - 33.11ft
The only one which is the full length is the SLX25. The main question we need to ask is why is this suddenly an issue, when another company emulates these pole sizes and Alex has been getting away with it for years!? In fact, i find it staggering for Alex to pull us up on an extended lengths when his fall short in nearly every version.
In our case we have a few more inches due to our pole design so we are closer to the stated pole length. When you add neck and brush you are even closer to the full length of the pole.
Bottom line - if your unhappy with our pole lengths, what can I say, this is now the norm! You been letting Alex get away with it for years! ;D
Pole Weights
In the same way we have emulated the pole lengths we have done with the weights. There is a slight difference in that lesser weighing poles end to be less rigid, wear quicker and will be weaker when made from the same substance. We have taken this into consideration, as long as we are in the same weight area as the competition we would, and our customers have stated, want a more rigid harder wearing pole than a marginally lighter, weaker pole.
Alex has stated we say our pole UL26 is 1300g, which is not true. We don't go into gram for gram weights, tad to petty for us. We have published it as 1.3kg approx which it is. This is a bare pole and clamps, no collar, hose, etc. This is how Gardiner state their pole weights. In fact, if you hold and SLX25 and a shorter stacked longer length UL26 the weight is almost identical to the user. Going by the criteria that Alex has weighed our UL26 I would challenge him to do the same with his pole range over his published weights, everyone of them would be heavier as he would have to add an adaptor, hose, etc. Prove me wrong.
Our Focus
With the Phoenix we have looked at the pole as a whole, we think this is far more important than focusing in one area i.e. weight, rigidity, clamps, pole tolerance, etc. the pole needs to work completely as one tool. It's about the overall experience. In fact, this is reflected in the fibreglass version. Fibreglass poles have had a bad rep for years and considered a cheap, budget product. The standard Phoenix works very well and out performs some suppliers hybrid poles.
I could go on and on, probably will do on the new site when it's finally launched. So I'll sum it up in two points.
1) We want to make outstanding tools and products that improve the industry, we got a few lined up and can't wait to get them out there but will take valuable lessons learnt here and more forward.
2) We want to be completely transparent as a company. Companies live and die on their reputation. We aim to be the world leader in water fed pole products, innovation and reputation. We have a long way to go to catch up with Alex's good name but think we can do it. Time will tell I guess.
Thanks again for reading and appreciate the input (even from the haters! Especially you sfwc!!)
So ready for any attacks, hate mail, letter bombs, etc.
-
Well, just answer my questions please.
Is the ultralight high modulus like the Xtreme?
Is the top section for occasional use only?
When is it available?
Do you think your carbon poles are harder wearing than Gardiners, if so how have you done it?
-
Mr Fox, are you the big boss of facelift? Who is mike? an employee? thanks
-
Well, just answer my questions please.
Is the ultralight high modulus like the Xtreme?
Is the top section for occasional use only?
When is it available?
Do you think your carbon poles are harder wearing than Gardiners, if so how have you done it?
Mark,
Not high mod, our carbon is very good so no real need for the extra expense.
Top section we have designed for occasional use, but can be used every minute of the day if you wish. It's the worlds shortest stacked 25ft plus pole. I would personally say if you need a 25ft plus pole for most of your working day then buy a 30ft and make your life easier.
Have a look at our vid while its still up for a little more info on the pole wear
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHTn9ft7aXY&feature=plcp
Not entirely happy with it as we have a used SLX pole to compare but it just to get the idea. Will remove and replace shortly.
-
Mr Fox, are you the big boss of facelift? Who is mike? an employee? thanks
One of the directors. Mike is the main man at Facelift.
-
I'm sorry but who uses the lateral clamp like the bloke in the video, he looks like a the way he is doing it.
-
Ok, I'll let him know that!
Any other issues to address, thoughts Lee?
-
So if the top section is for occasional use, then extending to sections is going to add an awful lot of weight to the end of the pole if the top sections isn't extended fully on its own?
-
I'm sorry but who uses the lateral clamp like the bloke in the video, he looks like a the way he is doing it.
That nots nice Lee, if anyone has a handicap child, they won't be happy with that comment
-
I'm sorry but who uses the lateral clamp like the bloke in the video, he looks like a spastic the way he is doing it.
very bad comment Lee!
-
So if the top section is for occasional use, then extending to sections is going to add an awful lot of weight to the end of the pole if the top sections isn't extended fully on its own?
No not at all. The section is very lite and pretty much unnoticeable, it weighs a little more than a 25SLX but is a lot shorter, easier to use. It's a pretty new concept hence the confusion at first.
-
I'm sorry but who uses the lateral clamp like the bloke in the video, he looks like a spastic the way he is doing it.
That nots nice Lee, if anyone has a handicap child, they won't be happy with that comment
Boo hoo, my point was, he way comparing the speed of the clamps, but the way the guy was operating the lateral clamps is not how they are used in normal practice, he is obviously trying to make the Phoenix clamp look faster by having someone operate the lateral clamp like a .
-
I'm sorry but who uses the lateral clamp like the bloke in the video, he looks like a spastic the way he is doing it.
very bad comment Lee!
Why is it a bad comment?
That is what it looks like
-
Not nice Lee, have a little think, choose your words more carefully
-
Not nice Lee, have a little think, choose your words more carefully
Spastic is not a nasty word, has it been blocked on here? No it has not, so i am free to use it, that was the best way to describe it. people are so easily offended these days because of PC.
-
Not nice Lee, have a little think, choose your words more carefully
Spastic is not a nasty word, has it been blocked on here? No it has not, so i am free to use it, that was the best way to describe it. people are so easily offended these days because of PC.
We, ourselves, are not always the best to judge what is and isn't offensive. The word isn't really used, these days, perhaps because of the context it was used in.
I'm sure you didn't mean it in an offensive way but the word was used in a derogatory manner, so it became out-dated and inappropriate.
-
Stephen Fox, Have we not came across that name before ?
You seem very small minded harping on about ' Alex did this & Alex called us that ' , grow up, this isnt a school playground.
-
Stephen Fox, Have we not came across that name before ?
You seem very small minded harping on about ' Alex did this & Alex called us that ' , grow up, this isnt a school playground.
Stephen fox used to post as Foxman. He was quite arrogant to be honest! His knowledge of products isn't that great either, on answering 3 questions about a brush he sells he got ALL 3 wrong! ;D
-
Stephen Fox, Have we not came across that name before ?
You seem very small minded harping on about ' Alex did this & Alex called us that ' , grow up, this isnt a school playground.
James, sorry it comes across like this, this is exactly what we didn't want....but Alex did start it ;D
There is a little history behind it, with a video, etc, etc
But your right, is just like a playground and I'll be the first to admit (and any one who knows me) that I'm still a kid and have yet to grow up.
-
Stephen Fox, Have we not came across that name before ?
You seem very small minded harping on about ' Alex did this & Alex called us that ' , grow up, this isnt a school playground.
Stephen fox used to post as Foxman. He was quite arrogant to be honest! His knowledge of products isn't that great either, on answering 3 questions about a brush he sells he got ALL 3 wrong! ;D
That must of been a few years back... Can I plead immaturity??
-
I'm pretty new to window cleaning and brought a system from pure2o ionics including a grafter 32 pole
Which turned out to be useless, too heavy, too bendy and clamps kept breaking .
I complained to ionics who sent me a 40ft glyder carbon pole to evaluate and then keep, excellent customer service but poles are awful!
I brought a clx 18 for most of my work and it's excellent, I wanted an slx but could not afford it .
The point is I think competition can only be a good thing, It will drive prices down and improve quality .
Time will tell if the facelift poles are any good, might be worth sending some out on loan /gift to be evaluated, if they are as good as you say you will more than make that money back.
I
-
I'm pretty new to window cleaning and brought a system from pure2o ionics including a grafter 32 pole
Which turned out to be useless, too heavy, too bendy and clamps kept breaking .
I complained to ionics who sent me a 40ft glyder carbon pole to evaluate and then keep, excellent customer service but poles are awful!
I brought a clx 18 for most of my work and it's excellent, I wanted an slx but could not afford it .
The point is I think competition can only be a good thing, It will drive prices down and improve quality .
Time will tell if the facelift poles are any good, might be worth sending some out on loan /gift to be evaluated, if they are as good as you say you will more than make that money back.
I
you bought a system from pure2o ionics including a grafter 32 pole and a clx 18 but you can't afford a slx ??? ??? sell your ionic pole and your clx and buy a slx 22 or 25!
-
Gardiner/Facelift pole length and weight debacle
First of all I would like to thank everyone who has commented on the Facelift threads over the last few weeks, both positive and negative, . It has been invaluable and the feedback truly appreciated. What an eye opener! The Phoenix range is the first product from the 'new' Facelift since we bought them last year, the learning curve has been tremendous!
To move Facelift into the modern world of window cleaning we needed a better pole. So we started with, what is in our mind, the current leader - Gardiners and aimed to make a product, if possible, that was better. Personally I believe unless you can produce something of value, why bother? No one needs a second rate knock off, if we can't come out with what we believe is a better product, we may as well close shop.
Seeing as Alex has years of pole building and selling experience, along with a great reputation, we have used his range as our current template therefore taking what Gardiners deems 'correct' we have adopted.
Pole Lengths
This is where the lengths come in. Basically whatever extended pole lengths Alex uses we, I hate to say it, have copied and labeled as our equivalent version. We have the pretty much exact same tube sizes. So for example, If Alex says an 18, 22, etc is his stated specs then we have to assume the same and that this is the accepted norm.
Now, we never wanted to get into a tit for tat with another supplier, but Alex has gone for an out an out attack of Facelift (which he's interestingly never done before with other companies) going as far as releasing a video to slate the range which he has since taken down when we responded with ours.
The acts on pole lengths: (Here are some stated extended lengths from Gardiners website)
CLX/SLX poles
CLX 10 - 3.01m - 9.10ft
CLX 14 - 4m - 13.1ft
CLX/SLX 18 - 5.22m - 17.1ft
CLX/SLX 22 - 6.39m - 20.11ft
CLX/SLX 27 - 8.10m - 26.6ft
SLX 25 - 7.62m - 25ft
SLX 30 - 9m - 29.6ft
SLX 35 - 10.34m - 33.11ft
The only one which is the full length is the SLX25. The main question we need to ask is why is this suddenly an issue, when another company emulates these pole sizes and Alex has been getting away with it for years!? In fact, i find it staggering for Alex to pull us up on an extended lengths when his fall short in nearly every version.
In our case we have a few more inches due to our pole design so we are closer to the stated pole length. When you add neck and brush you are even closer to the full length of the pole.
Bottom line - if your unhappy with our pole lengths, what can I say, this is now the norm! You been letting Alex get away with it for years! ;D
Pole Weights
In the same way we have emulated the pole lengths we have done with the weights. There is a slight difference in that lesser weighing poles end to be less rigid, wear quicker and will be weaker when made from the same substance. We have taken this into consideration, as long as we are in the same weight area as the competition we would, and our customers have stated, want a more rigid harder wearing pole than a marginally lighter, weaker pole.
Alex has stated we say our pole UL26 is 1300g, which is not true. We don't go into gram for gram weights, tad to petty for us. We have published it as 1.3kg approx which it is. This is a bare pole and clamps, no collar, hose, etc. This is how Gardiner state their pole weights. In fact, if you hold and SLX25 and a shorter stacked longer length UL26 the weight is almost identical to the user. Going by the criteria that Alex has weighed our UL26 I would challenge him to do the same with his pole range over his published weights, everyone of them would be heavier as he would have to add an adaptor, hose, etc. Prove me wrong.
Our Focus
With the Phoenix we have looked at the pole as a whole, we think this is far more important than focusing in one area i.e. weight, rigidity, clamps, pole tolerance, etc. the pole needs to work completely as one tool. It's about the overall experience. In fact, this is reflected in the fibreglass version. Fibreglass poles have had a bad rep for years and considered a cheap, budget product. The standard Phoenix works very well and out performs some suppliers hybrid poles.
I could go on and on, probably will do on the new site when it's finally launched. So I'll sum it up in two points.
1) We want to make outstanding tools and products that improve the industry, we got a few lined up and can't wait to get them out there but will take valuable lessons learnt here and more forward.
2) We want to be completely transparent as a company. Companies live and die on their reputation. We aim to be the world leader in water fed pole products, innovation and reputation. We have a long way to go to catch up with Alex's good name but think we can do it. Time will tell I guess.
Thanks again for reading and appreciate the input (even from the haters! Especially you sfwc!!)
So ready for any attacks, hate mail, letter bombs, etc.
Maybe Alex is a little bit annoyed(justifiably) at your poor attempt to claim that you sell the same backpack as the gardiner backpack and you label them a budget backpack.Do you actually have them in stock? ? ? ?
-
Not sure how WCW backpacks can be related to the pole length, etc from Facelift as there are two seperate companies, but I see where you are coming from.
Yes we have one or two available, I saw one the other day but are literally about to change backpacks to a new model that we have in which we are very happy about.
-
Ben m, the system was much much cheaper than all other crash tested systems, 2250 with 4040 ro and that is fitted price 400 litre including the pole .
To sell the grafter I would have to spend 20 quid on clamps and the pole is not worth much .
The slx 25 us three times the price if my clx eighteen so could not afford it . Ionics sent me the glyder after I brought the clx .if you want to buy my glyder for the price of an slx I will happily sell to you!
Shame ionics can't seem to build a decent pole because the system they sold me is excellent and good value and very very good customer service .
-
Not sure how WCW backpacks can be related to the pole length, etc from Facelift as there are two seperate companies, but I see where you are coming from.
Yes we have one or two available, I saw one the other day but are literally about to change backpacks to a new model that we have in which we are very happy about.
Is it not the same people that are at the helm of both companies?If the answer is yes,I would imagine that transparency relates to both companies.
As you said in your OP Alex doesn't usually attack competitors products,but your company has falsely advertised backpacks for sale in an attempt to stop Gardiners from getting their market share,so maybe this is why Alex has felt the need to respond in this out of charachter manner.
-
Stephen,
Is facelift anything to do with Unger? the guy in your video is wearing an Unger jacket which seems an odd thing to do in your promotional video as they are also pole manufactures.
Not that I have anything against Unger as I have had a few of their poles in the past and was happy with them
-
When were backpacks mentioned ??? ??? ,
Every competing company surely tries to gain sales by advertising products they sell to grab attention and gain sales that is what happens . Wetherspoons sometimes sells beer cheaper than other pubs how many people complain about a cheap pint .
some people are getting to fired about things , I have to say Gardiners is the only supplier i will buy brushes from along with all the other bits and pieces i need .
But in over 4 yrs i have not bought a gardiners pole as i am always willing to try other suppliers / manufacture's poles , For instance 18 months ago i bought an Elite carbon 35ft and the reason for this is their were problems and issues with the SLX due to clamps and 1 or 2 other things i think .
So at the time i was not willing to take a risk when spending over £300 . Mike
-
I think face poles still have some time to prove the quality as far a durability goes but I must say the explanation on your clamps ware makes sense to me as it does release with the bigger gap that a lateral clamp. Time will tell if this bares true or not.
-
When were backpacks mentioned ??? ??? ,
Every competing company surely tries to gain sales by advertising products they sell to grab attention and gain sales that is what happens . Wetherspoons sometimes sells beer cheaper than other pubs how many people complain about a cheap pint .
some people are getting to fired about things , I have to say Gardiners is the only supplier i will buy brushes from along with all the other bits and pieces i need .
But in over 4 yrs i have not bought a gardiners pole as i am always willing to try other suppliers / manufacture's poles , For instance 18 months ago i bought an Elite carbon 35ft and the reason for this is their were problems and issues with the SLX due to clamps and 1 or 2 other things i think .
So at the time i was not willing to take a risk when spending over £300 . Mike
Aye but they are offering a product for sale that they don't have=false advertising.I mentioned backpacks in response to the OP transparency claims.
-
It does not say they are out of stock could have ordered one if i wanted . Mike
-
KS I'm not sure if you are aware but hardly any of the suppliers out there have stock, it probably us and one or two others that have decent stock holding of items. (Last count we had around £300k +)
Most companies operate through drop shipping and 90% of what they advertise they do not have.
-
Looks like a very good pole Steve
On another point, where has your belly gone
-
Stephen Fox, Have we not came across that name before ?
You seem very small minded harping on about ' Alex did this & Alex called us that ' , grow up, this isnt a school playground.
James, sorry it comes across like this, this is exactly what we didn't want....but Alex did start it ;D
There is a little history behind it, with a video, etc, etc
But your right, is just like a playground and I'll be the first to admit (and any one who knows me) that I'm still a kid and have yet to grow up.
From what I've seen so far, that's the only bit you've gone wrong with. It is important though. I've seen competitors try to slag off Gardiner products on here before - while Alex maintained a dignified silence watching his competitors shoot their own feet to pieces. It's not just the equipment side of things where he knows what he's doing :)
unfortunately mr gardiner on this occasion hasnt kept a dignified silence which i must admit i found a little disapointing
-
It does not say they are out of stock could have ordered one if i wanted . Mike
Think we have our wires crossed here,as said earlier, I am referring to the backpacks WCW were offering for sale,only they don't actually have any,it was more of a ploy by WCW to stop people buying the Gardiner backpack.I know this thread is about poles but when the OP was talking about transparency in his companies so I decided to raise this issue.
-
KS I'm not sure if you are aware but hardly any of the suppliers out there have stock, it probably us and one or two others that have decent stock holding of items. (Last count we had around £300k +)
Most companies operate through drop shipping and 90% of what they advertise they do not have.
So if I order the WCW budget backpack(sold exclusively by gardiners)on your website it will be with me at a later date then?
-
I was on about the backpack mate as it was mentioned by yourself . Mike
-
I was on about the backpack mate as it was mentioned by yourself . Mike
Ah!Ok mate,I will wait on Stephens reply then, to see if they are available, or are in fact a phantom product.
-
Stephen Fox, Have we not came across that name before ?
You seem very small minded harping on about ' Alex did this & Alex called us that ' , grow up, this isnt a school playground.
Stephen fox used to post as Foxman. He was quite arrogant to be honest! His knowledge of products isn't that great either, on answering 3 questions about a brush he sells he got ALL 3 wrong! ;D
That must of been a few years back... Can I plead immaturity??
Why don't you take out a Banner on here ?
Then Magically all negative posts about you will disappear
-
Looks like a very good pole Steve
On another point, where has your belly gone
Haha! Lost 5 stone, not bad eh!
-
I was on about the backpack mate as it was mentioned by yourself . Mike
Ah!Ok mate,I will wait on Stephens reply then, to see if they are available, or are in fact a phantom product.
i think i've answered this on another thread? Let me know if you haven't seen it.
-
How did you Lose it ?
-
not eating properly due to the worrie about the new poles selling. then coming on here being slagged off ;D ;D
-
I don't think he is worried about that
Looks a very good pole, I like gardiners poles, but I can see some real innovations on the facelift pole
-
That's about right actually! The worry/stress weight loss system.
Hardcore dieting, running and some Insanity. Feel better than ever.
-
i an always looking for somthing that works better,i have had ionics vertical clamps in the past and the problem i found was that the nylon nut wore fast and the reverse thread nuts cost a lot. is it possible to let us know how your clamps work and how they last thanks matthew
-
I was on about the backpack mate as it was mentioned by yourself . Mike
Ah!Ok mate,I will wait on Stephens reply then, to see if they are available, or are in fact a phantom product.
i think i've answered this on another thread? Let me know if you haven't seen it.
sorry stephen,no I haven't seen it,could you put a link up,cheers
-
First thing facelift need is a brush with a weight around 150g like the SL extreme brush they transform the feel of any pole. Also isn't this facelift vs Gardiner stuff a bit sad a bit like arguing about whats the best smartphone out at he moment. A lot comes down to personal preference and in the end both will do the job very well.
-
Looks like a very good pole Steve
On another point, where has your belly gone
Haha! Lost 5 stone, not bad eh!
Is that 5 stone, exactly, or an estimation? We don't want a weight loss debacle ;D.
Well done, anyway.
-
Well, just answer my questions please.
Is the ultralight high modulus like the Xtreme?
Is the top section for occasional use only?
When is it available?
Do you think your carbon poles are harder wearing than Gardiners, if so how have you done it?
Mark,
Not high mod, our carbon is very good so no real need for the extra expense.
Top section we have designed for occasional use, but can be used every minute of the day if you wish. It's the worlds shortest stacked 25ft plus pole. I would personally say if you need a 25ft plus pole for most of your working day then buy a 30ft and make your life easier.
Have a look at our vid while its still up for a little more info on the pole wear
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHTn9ft7aXY&feature=plcp
Not entirely happy with it as we have a used SLX pole to compare but it just to get the idea. Will remove and replace shortly.
The carbon weave on the pole looks good. Is it made here in the UK, Europe or the Far East?
-
looks a great pole. a worthy rival to slx tbh... great news for us punters what does a 25ft cost foxy
-
Gardiner/Facelift pole length and weight debacle
...
Pole Lengths
...
The acts on pole lengths: (Here are some stated extended lengths from Gardiners website)
CLX/SLX poles
CLX 10 - 3.01m - 9.10ft
CLX 14 - 4m - 13.1ft
CLX/SLX 18 - 5.22m - 17.1ft
CLX/SLX 22 - 6.39m - 20.11ft
CLX/SLX 27 - 8.10m - 26.6ft
SLX 25 - 7.62m - 25ft
SLX 30 - 9m - 29.6ft
SLX 35 - 10.34m - 33.11ft
The only one which is the full length is the SLX25. The main question we need to ask is why is this suddenly an issue, when another company emulates these pole sizes and Alex has been getting away with it for years!? In fact, i find it staggering for Alex to pull us up on an extended lengths when his fall short in nearly every version.
...
I'm looking at your above quote and have zereod in pole lengths - now look at the metres = feet you have posted which in the case of the CLX10, SLX/CLX22 and SLX35 are significantly out.
You state the CLX10 is shown as 3.01 metres equating to 9.1ft. It doesn't - 3.01 metres equates to 9.87 feet.
Ditto the CLX22/SLX22 as 6.39 metres equating to 20.11ft. It doesn't - 6.39 metres equates to 20.96ft.
SLX35? you put 10.34 equating to 33.11ft - it should be 33.92ft
So in those three examples the lengths in feet you have posted are about 9/10 inches shorter than the metres actually work to.
(My feet rounded to the nearest two decimal points and found by multiplying metres x 3.28)
Furthermore(added later)
Nowhere do Gardiners claim that a pole number is exact length. For example,
The SLX25 at 7.66 metres equates to 25.12ft (not 25ft bare as you have quoted)
The SLX extreme 25 is 7.72 metres which equates to 25.32ft.
Both are "25's" but their lengths vary by 2 or 3 inches.
The exact stated length is there in metres for all to see.
-
Gardiner/Facelift pole length and weight debacle
...
Pole Lengths
...
The acts on pole lengths: (Here are some stated extended lengths from Gardiners website)
CLX/SLX poles
CLX 10 - 3.01m - 9.10ft
CLX 14 - 4m - 13.1ft
CLX/SLX 18 - 5.22m - 17.1ft
CLX/SLX 22 - 6.39m - 20.11ft
CLX/SLX 27 - 8.10m - 26.6ft
SLX 25 - 7.62m - 25ft
SLX 30 - 9m - 29.6ft
SLX 35 - 10.34m - 33.11ft
The only one which is the full length is the SLX25. The main question we need to ask is why is this suddenly an issue, when another company emulates these pole sizes and Alex has been getting away with it for years!? In fact, i find it staggering for Alex to pull us up on an extended lengths when his fall short in nearly every version.
...
I'm looking at your above quote and have zereod in pole lengths - now look at the metres = feet you have posted which in the case of the CLX10, SLX/CLX22 and SLX35 are significantly out.
You state the CLX10 is shown as 3.01 metres equating to 9.1ft. It doesn't - 3.01 metres equates to 9.87 feet.
Ditto the CLX22/SLX22 as 6.39 metres equating to 20.11ft. It doesn't - 6.39 metres equates to 20.96ft.
SLX35? you put 10.34 equating to 33.11ft - it should be 33.92ft
So in those three examples the lengths in feet you have posted are about 9/10 inches shorter than the metres actually work to.
(My feet rounded to the nearest two decimal points and found by multiplying metres x 3.28)
Gold, there is no such thing as 33ft 92. There are only 12 inches in every foot. You are confusing imperial and metric measurements. You have brought up a valid point, why pole lengths and reach heights are in feet but the extended are in metres?
-
he has you there goldie :D you need to do your sums again and change the .92 or whatever and convert to inches ;)
-
he has you there goldie :D you need to do your sums again and change the .92 or whatever and convert to inches ;)
Where? I only see 33.92ft ...
-
Gardiner/Facelift pole length and weight debacle
...
Pole Lengths
...
The acts on pole lengths: (Here are some stated extended lengths from Gardiners website)
CLX/SLX poles
CLX 10 - 3.01m - 9.10ft
CLX 14 - 4m - 13.1ft
CLX/SLX 18 - 5.22m - 17.1ft
CLX/SLX 22 - 6.39m - 20.11ft
CLX/SLX 27 - 8.10m - 26.6ft
SLX 25 - 7.62m - 25ft
SLX 30 - 9m - 29.6ft
SLX 35 - 10.34m - 33.11ft
The only one which is the full length is the SLX25. The main question we need to ask is why is this suddenly an issue, when another company emulates these pole sizes and Alex has been getting away with it for years!? In fact, i find it staggering for Alex to pull us up on an extended lengths when his fall short in nearly every version.
...
I'm looking at your above quote and have zereod in pole lengths - now look at the metres = feet you have posted which in the case of the CLX10, SLX/CLX22 and SLX35 are significantly out.
You state the CLX10 is shown as 3.01 metres equating to 9.1ft. It doesn't - 3.01 metres equates to 9.87 feet.
Ditto the CLX22/SLX22 as 6.39 metres equating to 20.11ft. It doesn't - 6.39 metres equates to 20.96ft.
SLX35? you put 10.34 equating to 33.11ft - it should be 33.92ft
So in those three examples the lengths in feet you have posted are about 9/10 inches shorter than the metres actually work to.
(My feet rounded to the nearest two decimal points and found by multiplying metres x 3.28)
Gold, there is no such thing as 33ft 92. There are only 12 inches in every foot. You are confusing imperial and metric measurements. You have brought up a valid point, why pole lengths and reach heights are in feet but the extended are in metres?
Like I said to stuart m - I have put 33.92ft, using the exact same method as you have in your original post. 33.92 is perfectly valid it equates to 33ft 11.04 inches.
So again I say that you have in several cases significantly understated the length when converted from metres to feet.
-
he has you there goldie :D you need to do your sums again and change the .92 or whatever and convert to inches ;)
Where? I only see 33.92ft ...
malc, you say he is exaggerating by a good few inches, but he put 33 ft 11 inches you made that 33ft 11inches plus point 04, hardly much to worry about really
-
you are both right, but stephen should instead of putting 20.11ft, it should have been 20ft 11", the same as 20.96ft
-
Gold, as pointed out inches only go up to 12. You can't combine two different measurement systems. It causes confusion, which is the whole reason we are having his conversation.
Why are there two different measurements in the specifications? I can only deduct it is hide the fact that the lengths are not equal to the state sizes.
-
Gold, as pointed out inches only go up to 12. You can't combine two different measurement systems. It causes confusion, which is the whole reason we are having his conversation.
Why are there two different measurements in the specifications? I can only deduct it is hide the fact that the lengths are not equal to the state sizes.
Wrong, Stephen - as LeeGLS states if you meant feet and inches you should have put (eg) 33ft 11 inches or 33ft 11". By putting 33.11ft you have said 33ft and .11 of a foot.
.11 of a foot is 1.32"
There are not two different measurements to hide anything - the exact extended length is stated in metres - the working height in feet. And a number on the pole which approximates to the feet. What would you have? An SLX7.62 instead of an SLX25? An SLX Extreme 7.72 instead of an SLX Extreme 25? That would sound a bit clumsy and using whole metres would be too approximate to be of any use. And a change in clamp design might mean a slight adjustment in length too.
Bear in mind that Gardiner Poles are sold in the USA where feet and inches are popular and to "my generation" in the UK which uses both.
-
Facelift poles have been sold and will be sold in the USA, UK and Europe..
-
Facelift poles have been sold and will be sold in the USA, UK and Europe..
Some advice - put your exact extended lengths up on your website in imperial and metric. No confusion then ...
Oh, and I suggest feet and inches for imperial ... ;)
-
Gold, as pointed out inches only go up to 12. You can't combine two different measurement systems. It causes confusion, which is the whole reason we are having his conversation.
Why are there two different measurements in the specifications? I can only deduct it is hide the fact that the lengths are not equal to the state sizes.
Wrong, Stephen - as LeeGLS states if you meant feet and inches you should have put (eg) 33ft 11 inches or 33ft 11". By putting 33.11ft you have said 33ft and .11 of a foot.
.11 of a foot is 1.32"
There are not two different measurements to hide anything - the exact extended length is stated in metres - the working height in feet. And a number on the pole which approximates to the feet. What would you have? An SLX7.62 instead of an SLX25? An SLX Extreme 7.72 instead of an SLX Extreme 25? That would sound a bit clumsy and using whole metres would be too approximate to be of any use. And a change in clamp design might mean a slight adjustment in length too.
Bear in mind that Gardiner Poles are sold in the USA where feet and inches are popular and to "my generation" in the UK which uses both.
Gold, I wouldn't say I was wrong to be honest. You and Lee have both assumed I have combined two different measurement systems when I didn't, as in my mind that would not make sense.
To be crystal clear I should of put " in there, point taken.
My point with the extended length in metres is basically, why swap? I understand naming a pole xxx 7.72 sounding clumsy but why swap on a specs table from one to the other? Why change from feet to metres for one measurement only? Why not keep it in feet? i personally can only think of one reason. It would be interesting to hear your view point,
-
Well the working reach of my poles are three inches more than yours so there :P
I've got longer arms than you and I wear high heels to work.
-
CLX 10 = 9ft 10 inches
CLX 14 = 13ft 1 inch
CLX/SLX 18 = 17ft 1 inch
CLX/SLX 22 = 20ft 11 inches
CLX/SLX 27 = 26ft 6 inches
SLX 25 = 25ft
SLX 30 = 29ft 6 inches
SLX 35 = 33ft 11 inches
-
Stephen - the specs table is exact pole length in metres. It is there to the second decimal point for all to see and use if it is critical to the user.
The approximate measurements which cannot be exact are in feet:
The working height - which obviously need to include the variables of user height and reach and also the variables of brush and neck. A foot is a good size for approximates in the "up to 50 ft height" - metres aren't.
The number on the pole gives an approximate length in feet - again the variables of brush and neck need to be added to be of practical use.
I accept that the exact length could include feet and inches. If you want to show top customer care you might include both on your website and literature and thus improve on what Gardiners show.
I don't believe there is any attempt to deceive at all.
-
Facelift poles have been sold and will be sold in the USA, UK and Europe..
Why not uk first then the rest of the world? ;D they only clean windows twice a year in usa
-
Facelift poles have been sold and will be sold in the USA, UK and Europe..
Why not uk first then the rest of the world? ;D they only clean windows twice a year in usa
and once a year in France :D
-
Stephen - the specs table is exact pole length in metres. It is there to the second decimal point for all to see and use if it is critical to the user.
The approximate measurements which cannot be exact are in feet:
The working height - which obviously need to include the variables of user height and reach and also the variables of brush and neck. A foot is a good size for approximates in the "up to 50 ft height" - metres aren't.
;D
The number on the pole gives an approximate length in feet - again the variables of brush and neck need to be added to be of practical use.
I accept that the exact length could include feet and inches. If you want to show top customer care you might include both on your website and literature and thus improve on what Gardiners show.
I don't believe there is any attempt to deceive at all.
Gold, I could argue that nowhere on the website it says any if that, but I won't! ;D
My point is simply why not have everything in feet and inches. You can still be exact with those measurements, in fact it had been our own measurement currency for donkey years!
We will do exactly what you say, make it clear in both measurements. Good point well made.
-
I'm sorry but who uses the lateral clamp like the bloke in the video, he looks like a spastic the way he is doing it.
very bad comment Lee!
Why is it a bad comment?
That is what it looks like
sorry lee,had a few laugh with you over the years,but this one doesnt go down well.
we have a disabled son and if you would to call him that,then the slx would be wrappped around your head.
its a insult to the person and so 1980's
the word is insulting........ >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >
-
im seriously disappointed by some of the immature and stupid comments on these poles and lee i also think your out of order and should think a bit more before posting.
anyway back to the thread! ;D ;D ;D
lets be honest here guys we now have a rival to the 25 ft SLX which IMO is the current leader in a good quality all around carbon pole at a reasonable price.
to design a pole that combats the black hands you get from using the slx,better clamps,an extra foot of length when needed,slightly better rigidity and a similar if not shorter closed length.well!!its obvious a lot of thought has been put into making this the best pole on the market!
time will tell when window cleaners have been using them day in/day out for a few months.
best wishes to everyone
dazmond
-
Gardiner/Facelift pole length and weight debacle
First of all I would like to thank everyone who has commented on the Facelift threads over the last few weeks, both positive and negative, . It has been invaluable and the feedback truly appreciated. What an eye opener! The Phoenix range is the first product from the 'new' Facelift since we bought them last year, the learning curve has been tremendous!
To move Facelift into the modern world of window cleaning we needed a better pole. So we started with, what is in our mind, the (1) current leader - Gardiners and aimed to make a product, if possible, that was better. Personally I believe unless you can produce something of value, why bother? No one needs a second rate knock off, if we can't come out with what we believe is a better product, we may as well close shop.
Seeing as Alex has years of pole building and selling experience, along with a great reputation, we have used his range as our current template therefore taking what Gardiners deems 'correct' we have adopted.
Pole Lengths
This is where the lengths come in. Basically whatever extended pole lengths Alex uses we, I hate to say it, have copied and labeled as our equivalent version. We have the pretty much exact same tube sizes. So for example, If Alex says an 18, 22, etc is his stated specs then we have to assume the same and that this is the accepted norm.
Now, we never wanted to get into a tit for tat with another supplier, but (2)Alex has gone for an out an out attack of Facelift (which he's interestingly never done before with other companies) going as far as releasing a video to slate the range which he has since taken down when we responded with ours.
The acts on pole lengths: (Here are some stated extended lengths from Gardiners website)
CLX/SLX poles
CLX 10 - 3.01m - 9.10ft
CLX 14 - 4m - 13.1ft
CLX/SLX 18 - 5.22m - 17.1ft
CLX/SLX 22 - 6.39m - 20.11ft
CLX/SLX 27 - 8.10m - 26.6ft
SLX 25 - 7.62m - 25ft
SLX 30 - 9m - 29.6ft
SLX 35 - 10.34m - 33.11ft
The only one which is the full length is the SLX25. (3) The main question we need to ask is why is this suddenly an issue, when another company emulates these pole sizes and Alex has been getting away with it for years!? In fact, i find it staggering for Alex to pull us up on an extended lengths when his fall short in nearly every version.
In our case we have a few more inches due to our pole design so we are closer to the stated pole length. When you add neck and brush you are even closer to the full length of the pole.
Bottom line - if your unhappy with our pole lengths, what can I say, this is now the norm! You been letting Alex get away with it for years! ;D
Pole Weights
In the same way we have emulated the pole lengths we have done with the weights. There is a slight difference in that lesser weighing poles end to be less rigid, wear quicker and will be weaker when made from the same substance. We have taken this into consideration, as long as we are in the same weight area as the competition we would, and our customers have stated, want a more rigid harder wearing pole than a marginally lighter, weaker pole.
(4)Alex has stated we say our pole UL26 is 1300g, which is not true. We don't go into gram for gram weights, tad to petty for us. We have published it as 1.3kg approx which it is. This is a bare pole and clamps, no collar, hose, etc. This is how Gardiner state their pole weights. In fact, if you hold and SLX25 and a shorter stacked longer length UL26 the weight is almost identical to the user. Going by the criteria that Alex has weighed our UL26 I would challenge him to do the same with his pole range over his published weights, everyone of them would be heavier as he would have to add an adaptor, hose, etc. Prove me wrong.
Our Focus
With the Phoenix we have looked at the pole as a whole, we think this is far more important than focusing in one area i.e. weight, rigidity, clamps, pole tolerance, etc. the pole needs to work completely as one tool. It's about the overall experience. In fact, this is reflected in the fibreglass version. Fibreglass poles have had a bad rep for years and considered a cheap, budget product. The standard Phoenix works very well and out performs some suppliers hybrid poles.
I could go on and on, probably will do on the new site when it's finally launched. So I'll sum it up in two points.
1) We want to make outstanding tools and products that improve the industry, we got a few lined up and can't wait to get them out there but will take valuable lessons learnt here and more forward.
2) We want to be completely transparent as a company. Companies live and die on their reputation. We aim to be the world leader in water fed pole products, innovation and reputation. We have a long way to go to catch up with Alex's good name but think we can do it. Time will tell I guess.
Thanks again for reading and appreciate the input (even from the haters! Especially you sfwc!!)
So ready for any attacks, hate mail, letter bombs, etc.
Hi Stephen (WCW/Facelift)
As the forum old timers know our forum interactions over the years (as Foxman) have always proved to be 'illuminating'.
I have been away on holiday and have just returned. Whilst I have generally enjoyed reading the back and forth and have felt no overwhelming urge to respond I did feel that there were just a few points (numbered) I would like to comment on from above - you will be aware of this though because we have already privately communicated on many of these issues.
1. First of all thank you for this public acknowledgement.
2. I did release a video for some of our clients who were asking me specifically for the difference between Facelift 26UL and our SLX25 - for most clients this was of real interest. As I had both poles I did a video showing the difference - which was a large difference in rigidity with the SLX being far stiffer and slightly lighter. Also I did a video showing the readily perceivable benefits of the lateral clamps over the lengthways clamps. Once again this was to answer the questions I was receiving from clients. These videos were posted on YouTube and mentioned to the clients who had asked - not posted on our website or any forums. These videos were completely accurate representations on the product - however I removed them the very next day as you stated on a forum and by email that the poles I had been sent from the on-line retailer were actually sub-standard pre-production poles which had somehow got into the system. This is why I removed the videos (as stated in my email to you) as it would not have been fair (IMO) to use sub-standard poles for a comparison. You also gave me a link to your video which you had quickly worked on - if you recall I did not get into a debate with you via email about some of the unfair or manipulated comparisons on your video as I felt it simply not worth my energy and trusted that intelligent viewers would quickly spot the flaws in the video (which they have done). You also removed the video at that time - however as your company has chosen to make this video public I feel quite happy to now comment on it where asked.
Since I have now got the full-production spec replacement poles I have re-shot some of the video and will be releasing another video showing the benefits of the lateral clamp system. In my mind your company's production poles are virtually no different to the 'allegedly' sub-standard pre-production poles apart from the addition of a logo sticker.
I have always posted on forums where I have noticed that a competing product is inaccurately being marketed in direct comparison to ours. I have done this over the years with various poles including most recently the Elite range who launched with a highly spurious set of weights and lengths which were subsequently changed.
3. We have not been 'getting away' with anything because we have always posted the exact extended length ever since we have been selling the poles. In fact these lengths were posted in each case before the poles were even on the market. The reason that we have always posted extended length in metres is because when we launched the SLX range 5 years ago the main competitors (Ionics and X-Tel) also only posted their exact extended length in metres. There was little point in quoting it in ft and inches as most people (as we have seen) have difficulty relating the two measurements and therefore would be unable to make an exact comparison for purchasing purposes. We chose to give each size pole a name in ft to help in selecting the right pole for the UK market. Unlike Ionics who still name the pole after the reach we chose to go for the nearest actual size in feet once a gooseneck and brush are attached. We have always found that this has worked well for clients and has helped prevent confusion. We have also always quoted the reach of the pole in the spec chart to help clients trying to compare our products to the Ionics range (and previous Facelift range). Personally I do not like the reach measurement at all.
Why has your company been pulled up on it? Because nowhere has your company posted the accurate lengths just the name of the pole. Having got your company's new pole range this may prove difficult for your company though as I have noticed that at standard extension (silver band showing in the clamp window) the pole is 30cm shorter than when the overlaps have been over-extended by about 6cm - this is true on the Phoenix 26 anyway.
4.Mike has clearly posted in many places on the forum the full specification sheet which states that the 26UL is 1.3kg. We both know that this is not the case - I have put the 26UL on the scales and it is 1450g completely bare - not approx 1.3kg. I also have this comparative weighing on a video (against my poles), but think that it is best to wait for one of your company's retail clients to comment on this when they have also weighed it and they can then prove the stated weight as inaccurate as my credibility as a competitor is not obviously as good as some anonymous poster.
This is not personal in anyway (despite your long public-forum history with my firm and products) just a simple statement of fact as perceived by myself.
-
Foxman?? Really? Oh man..... :-\
Good constructive reply.
-
Who was the guy who invented the Hybrid Carbon/Alluminium pole, I think it was a guy called Stuart, threw all his money into it.
biggest disaster pole in history
-
Who was the guy who invented the Hybrid Carbon/Alluminium pole, I think it was a guy called Stuart, threw all his money into it.
biggest disaster pole in history
Think as a moderator you should keep quiet and just do your job " moderate "
-
Who was the guy who invented the Hybrid Carbon/Alluminium pole, I think it was a guy called Stuart, threw all his money into it.
biggest disaster pole in history
Think as a moderator you should keep quiet and just do your job " moderate "
He could start by deleting your account hey!!
-
Who was the guy who invented the Hybrid Carbon/Alluminium pole, I think it was a guy called Stuart, threw all his money into it.
biggest disaster pole in history
Think as a moderator you should keep quiet and just do your job " moderate "
He could start by deleting your account hey!!
And that would show his true colours, smart arse
-
when was this > Hybrid Carbon/Alluminium pole
-
Who was the guy who invented the Hybrid Carbon/Alluminium pole, I think it was a guy called Stuart, threw all his money into it.
biggest disaster pole in history
Think as a moderator you should keep quiet and just do your job " moderate "
He could start by deleting your account hey!!
And that would show his true colours, smart arse
Oh bless.
-
when was this > Hybrid Carbon/Alluminium pole
Skypole I believe it was. Prototypes were made but the guy went bust if I remember correctly.
-
I was a member first, then got asked to moderate.
Not to sit in the corner and keep my gob shut, I am just like you if I have something to say then I say it.
Being a moderator is just helping the forum run ok, ie deleting swearing etc, nothing more, nothing special
-
Who was the guy who invented the Hybrid Carbon/Alluminium pole, I think it was a guy called Stuart, threw all his money into it.
biggest disaster pole in history
Think as a moderator you should keep quiet and just do your job " moderate "
Not when a ' trial ' pole is on offer ::) too much to lose
-
James
You are getting silly now, if i wanted a trial pole, I probably could phone any supplier and get one on trial
As mentioned earlier, I tested one of Alex's 60 ft poles, then I ended up buying it.
I never asked Alex, He offered, I have trialed many products even the Vikan pad, direct for Vikan
You dont get the poles free when you trial them, sometimes you have the opportunity to buy them at the end of the trial period.
If I was that Interested and as deceitful as you think I am, I would of just phoned Steve in private without coming on the forum.
Do you honestly think I am that stupid, or that dishonest?
-
Lots of strange people on here.
-
Trial pole for mods? Where's mine? ;D
Anyone can be a mod, we're just here out of the goodness of our hearts to try and keep the forum a nice place to be. We generally delete swearwords and member's accounts who threaten other members; that kind of stuff.
It does not - repeat not - mean we can't join in debates and voice opinions; we're members of the forum too. Mike Boxhall and Co are the management, however they give no direction to us; just the mod buttons; and we use our own intelligence to moderate.
Also, if you have an point - debate it as robustly as you like - however trying to undermine someone because they're a mod smacks of a weakness of argument; you may as well say Dave is talking knickers because his hair is just like the stuff I have under my armpits (it is btw).
-
Foxman?? Really? Oh man..... :-\
Good constructive reply.
Oh dear. Day two - so far dodgy clamps, a teeny bit fragile and comes complete with a knackered brush. Cant wait till the end of the week!
Feel sorry for Alex, this pole has been hyped up far too much before it's even been used.
Time to feel sorry for The Fox I guess.
Maybe learn from HOW Alex dealt with issues.
Thanks for this Sunshine! Wow that was a long time ago.
-
James
You are getting silly now, if i wanted a trial pole, I probably could phone any supplier and get one on trial
Is that in your capacity as ' unbiased forum moderator or the owner of a national window cleaning company ' ?
-
I I I I I I I I I I ..... ( sound of some moderators)
-
Deleted Stephen. Sorry I thought it ironic.
-
James
I answered your post in my reply earlier
Last I am going to say on the subject
-
And maybe me me me me ££££££. Me me
-
And maybe me me me me ££££££. Me me
You remind me of this turkey, for some reason:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v737/tosh0987/TurkeyCrown.jpg)
-
And maybe me me me me ££££££. Me me
You remind me of this turkey, for some reason:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v737/tosh0987/TurkeyCrown.jpg)
;D ;D ;D
-
And maybe me me me me ££££££. Me me
You remind me of this turkey, for some reason:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v737/tosh0987/TurkeyCrown.jpg)
You mean I remind you of a vulva?
-
That's very moving.
-
@Joey, no, you remind me of that turkey. Any inference you impute upon that picture is a creation of your own mind. You're probably right though.
Maybe you ought to reduce the amount of alcohol you drink before bashing on that keyboard with your forehead dobber?
In the interests of potentially hurt feelings, I'm going to lock this post till the morning. Any complaints, send 'em to Mike.
-
I think that the quality of moderating in the facelift/slx discussions is rather poor.
-
Hi Gold
So do I, but I do get drawn in sometimes, part of me being human and not robotic.
I cant delete anything in these posts, because of being drawn in, If I moderate and delete anything, it will be seen as me being biased, i have seen it before where I try to moderate a post which I am involved, normally it leads to a verbal riot.
Its damned if you do and damned if you dont.
But saying that its all healthy discussion anyway, with a few personal attacks aimed at myself and Steve, but I think we are man enough to take it.
Other mods are allowed to delete though and i am sure they will if someone steps over the mark
-
Not nice Lee, have a little think, choose your words more carefully
Spastic is not a nasty word, has it been blocked on here? No it has not, so i am free to use it, that was the best way to describe it. people are so easily offended these days because of PC.
I personally don't think that you should keep on using that word, with the baggage it carries if it upsets a forum member. Yeh, there used to be a charity called the Spastic Society, but with playground bullying the word now carries negative connotations.
I'll ask you kindly not to use it again in the context you have.
Thanks.
-
I think that the quality of moderating in the facelift/slx discussions is rather poor.
I think it's rather poor that you had the chance to be a moderator, refused to go the whole hog (only do holiday cover or some such twaddle), and then complain about the standard of moderation!
Why don't you volunteer and lead by example, rather than whining on the sidelines?
-
I also think this post has ran it's course. If anyone wants to continue the discussion, please start another post.