Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: john martin on October 21, 2012, 04:19:28 pm
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A couple of Enforcer owners mentioned that Ashbys produces the Omega CFM meter during the sales pitch and showed them 200CFM , a figure which many knew to be illogical and is now proved wrong beyond reasonable doubt . The buyers trusted them a took their word even though it would be now reasonable to conclude Ashbys were lying through their grinning teeth before taking their money and send them on their way .
So whats different with Solutions ? From what i read on CT they are bringing in the jags and measuring (270cfm and 9HG) which is the likely true figures for the Jag , refitting some internal hoses and producing the CFM meter again to show 360cfm ...
That figure is just as illogical as Ashbys figure .... you have two 6.6's each rated at 139CFM ... you can not make two of them produce more than double that ( around 280cfm )
Why are they fitting larger internal hoses , its logical to conclude that its to help solve the heat buildup issue that has resulted in reported motor failure by some owners , and nothing wrong with that mod .
But claiming a huge increase in CFM beyond what is logical is just like Ashbys , lying through their teeth .
How ? you have to enter several parameters into the digital anemometer , example internal hose volume ... think how easy it would be to toggle between a couple of presets to come up with a different figure .
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so what is the point of this post??
You have said nothing on here that you have not said on other threads...
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I'm no Solutions die hard but I'm gonna have to stick up for them on this one.
I don't believe Solutions have said anything at all about their cfm readings. I belive it was a user that said it.
If it really is a problem for you then tell th people who claim these findings. See if you can call them liers!!
Honestly, what is wrong with some people. Every other day I see someone trying to slag someone else off, and the best of it is. YOU'RE SAYING IT IN THE WRONG PLACE.
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I'm no Solutions die hard but I'm gonna have to stick up for them on this one.
I don't believe Solutions have said anything at all about their cfm readings. I belive it was a user that said it.
If it really is a problem for you then tell th people who claim these findings. See if you can call them liers!!
Honestly, what is wrong with some people. Every other day I see someone trying to slag someone else off, and the best of it is. YOU'RE SAYING IT IN THE WRONG PLACE.
A User ? are you calling him a lair ?
This is a post on cleantalk now ...
I cant read the responses as im not a member but who do u think hes talking about performing the CFM test ?
We got back from Piskey Land last night and I must say that the Cornish hospitality was as good as ever. Big Thanks to all the team at Solutions. Despite my growing years, I did actually remember to ask Nick and Colin to measure the vac performance of my Jag both on arrival and prior to departure. Machine in, airflow in was 271.1CFM's and as near as 10" Hg as you can get. At every stage, Hg remained consistent, so I wont mention it again. After conversion, the Jaguar was tested in many ways. First off, it measured 358cfm's. That's a "free" improvement of 32%. Can't be bad that. Same vacs, no extra power consumption and, hopefully, even better cooling. But 358cfm's isn't the whole story. We discussed between us the variation in figures that Nick records from the same machines at different times
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Firstly I am not a Jaguar owner, I own a Storm not that matters, the writer of that post is not an employee or owner of Solutions but a very highly respected member of the carpet cleaning community who I would hasten to add posts under his own name and does not hide behind a pseudonym. Whilst you are certainly a very knowledgeable John it is a getting a tad boring this constant slagging off of certain manufactures.
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This is Ken's full post. I don't think he has an axe to grind. I've only met him a couple of times but he always comes across as a decent bloke.
"We got back from Piskey Land last night and I must say that the Cornish hospitality was as good as ever. Big Thanks to all the team at Solutions.
Despite my growing years, I did actually remember to ask Nick and Colin to measure the vac performance of my Jag both on arrival and prior to departure.
Machine in, airflow in was 271.1CFM's and as near as 10" Hg as you can get. At every stage, Hg remained consistent, so I wont mention it again.
After conversion, the Jaguar was tested in many ways. First off, it measured 358cfm's. That's a "free" improvement of 32%. Can't be bad that. Same vacs, no extra power consumption and, hopefully, even better cooling.
But 358cfm's isn't the whole story. We discussed between us the variation in figures that Nick records from the same machines at different times. This can be quite significant. The theories we threw into the pot was varying climatic conditions ie higher and lower air pressure affecting the readings. But the most significant variations I have noticed throughout my career is the electricity supply. Even with my Sebo vacuum, I can tell by the sound of the brush motor whether the voltage is high or low. It is certainly noticeable too at the end of the Westpac. The day after the Jag conversion was completed, Nick again took cfm readings whilst I was there, and they varied somewhat in the low 360's. For my own machine, I am therefore going to say that I have 360cfm's
Now for a big twist. I want to "turn" the vac exhaust so that it blows away from the machine, keeping hot air away. Nick made up a shaped baffle/diverter plate for this purpose. CFM's actually increased:shock: By delicate manipulation of the baffle the figures went into the high 360's. But then Nick tried it with just his hands acting as the baffle/diverter and we found that in specific position with his hands cupped into a specific shape, we had consistent readings of 374cfm's. :censored: hell! Fluid dynamics is certainly a complex issue!
Now another dynamic. There has been low level research in the US, using a high end T/M as the source, to find the optimum cfm's through a 50ft hose. Tests were carried out, so I'm told, with extended runs, 4 to the door, a straight 50ft plus other configurations and the results were similar for every configuration. 260cfms. The conclusion of this test, so I'm told, was that 260cm's is the max. achievable under normal circumstances, but a powerful T/M will achieve the same fugure over longer hose runs than a lower spec machine. To be honest, I'm a little sceptical about this research but I won't discredit the results either. More needs to be done.
So, we measured the modified Jaguar with 50ft of new hose attached. 270cfms' and the same 10"Hg.
I'm happy:woohoo:
Probably wont be rinse extracting until later in the week, but I'm all excited at the prospect. "
He then corrects this by saying the figure 274 was a mistype and should have read 274.
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This is Ken's full post. I don't think he has an axe to grind. I've only met him a couple of times but he always comes across as a decent bloke.
"We got back from Piskey Land last night and I must say that the Cornish hospitality was as good as ever. Big Thanks to all the team at Solutions.
Despite my growing years, I did actually remember to ask Nick and Colin to measure the vac performance of my Jag both on arrival and prior to departure.
Machine in, airflow in was 271.1CFM's and as near as 10" Hg as you can get. At every stage, Hg remained consistent, so I wont mention it again.
After conversion, the Jaguar was tested in many ways. First off, it measured 358cfm's. That's a "free" improvement of 32%. Can't be bad that. Same vacs, no extra power consumption and, hopefully, even better cooling.
But 358cfm's isn't the whole story. We discussed between us the variation in figures that Nick records from the same machines at different times. This can be quite significant. The theories we threw into the pot was varying climatic conditions ie higher and lower air pressure affecting the readings. But the most significant variations I have noticed throughout my career is the electricity supply. Even with my Sebo vacuum, I can tell by the sound of the brush motor whether the voltage is high or low. It is certainly noticeable too at the end of the Westpac. The day after the Jag conversion was completed, Nick again took cfm readings whilst I was there, and they varied somewhat in the low 360's. For my own machine, I am therefore going to say that I have 360cfm's
Now for a big twist. I want to "turn" the vac exhaust so that it blows away from the machine, keeping hot air away. Nick made up a shaped baffle/diverter plate for this purpose. CFM's actually increased:shock: By delicate manipulation of the baffle the figures went into the high 360's. But then Nick tried it with just his hands acting as the baffle/diverter and we found that in specific position with his hands cupped into a specific shape, we had consistent readings of 374cfm's. :censored: hell! Fluid dynamics is certainly a complex issue!
Now another dynamic. There has been low level research in the US, using a high end T/M as the source, to find the optimum cfm's through a 50ft hose. Tests were carried out, so I'm told, with extended runs, 4 to the door, a straight 50ft plus other configurations and the results were similar for every configuration. 260cfms. The conclusion of this test, so I'm told, was that 260cm's is the max. achievable under normal circumstances, but a powerful T/M will achieve the same fugure over longer hose runs than a lower spec machine. To be honest, I'm a little sceptical about this research but I won't discredit the results either. More needs to be done.
So, we measured the modified Jaguar with 50ft of new hose attached. 270cfms' and the same 10"Hg.
I'm happy:woohoo:
Probably wont be rinse extracting until later in the week, but I'm all excited at the prospect. "
He then corrects this by saying the figure 274 was a mistype and should have read 274.
Thanks for posting garry , i could only see half of that as CT has blocked non members again ...
but i am an non the wiser for reading it :D
Anyway It doesn't take a gauge to know that two 139's cant equal more than 280 .
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Thank God I’ve only got a baby TM, what next phoenix v titan ;D (only one winner who brings in ££££) LM for me what’s the cfm on that ;) that’s one for Ken W ;D ;)
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Len, Ken has a little red fire engine that has brought him good money in lm for years ;)
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Paul
What a spot to be put in cfm V money ;)
not a great lover of red fire engine :-X
Please don’t mines 3”in bigger ;D ;)
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Len wait till you try out an Orbot, then you will fall in love with commercial work 8)
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I don't get the reason for this post? So someone said something about a machine, and what? What difference does it make? If your going to say he's trying to brain wash people in to buying a machine that they think produces x amount of cfm's then that person buying the machine should surely ask for a test to be done to be sure.
I have no reason to believe Ken W is lying and don't think he would, I've read the post and that's that, I have also read this post but don't feel the need to run off to ct and tell tales, especially when that person isn't there to defend themselves. Get a grip
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I don't get the reason for this post? So someone said something about a machine, and what? What difference does it make? If your going to say he's trying to brain wash people in to buying a machine that they think produces x amount of cfm's then that person buying the machine should surely ask for a test to be done to be sure.
I have no reason to believe Ken W is lying and don't think he would, I've read the post and that's that, I have also read this post but don't feel the need to run off to ct and tell tales, especially when that person isn't there to defend themselves. Get a grip
Neil , do you not think anyone buying a machine from a supplier should be told the truth ? be it from Ashbys , solutions or anyone else ...
What the CT poster said is that solutions is telling people that the Jaguar has 270cfm .... but if they alter the internal hoses the CFM jumps to 360
No doubt anyone buying the 2013 jag or whatever they are calling it now will be told it already has the internal mods .... and if they ask for a CFM test like u suggest , there is a good chance solutions CFM gauge will read 360
But .... The CFM increase suggested is illogical ... It has two 139cfm motors
add the two together and u get 280 .... all a machines internal plumbing can do thereafter is act as restriction and decrease that number ... a good machine design will prevent loss .....
But nothing inside the machine can increase the CFM ...
So do u think its fine for people to be fooled when buying a machine ?
If I'm wrong with the numbers ... let anyone come here and challenge me , ken , Nick , Ed i don't care who it is as long as they can give a plausible argument as to how CFM can be increased in this way .
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Len wait till you try out an Orbot, then you will fall in love with commercial work 8)
Paul, Really?
Is it that much benefit having the little sprayers on? that is the only thing over a rotary they do isn't it?
surely its not much different to spraying on with a pump up, or am I missing something?
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The orbot is a type of OP machine, not a rotary.
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Yep Craig, you are defo missing something :D
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The orbot is a type of OP machine, not a rotary.
Just means it wobbles doesn't it?
Thanks for that indepth reply Paul, ;D ;D
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Wobbles? Yes, I think that's what they put on the box ;) lol
It doesn't flatten the pile like a rotary because they move in different directions - so it lifts the pile and cleans on more than 1 side of the fibre (not that I want to start a debate).
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To do an indepth reply i would have to go deep, deep undercover ;D
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Adding a spray unit does save time the oscillating motion is better than a rotary but when I had mine I didn't think it was significantly better on carpet.
Shaun
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O my God John, you are so boring. You need to get a life. Is life in America so dull you have to keep posting the same old slagging stuff on here? Even the non Solution fans are bored of you now
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No I don't think it is right for people to be fooled but in my opinion I don't think Ken would blatently lie about it. I also think its unfair that people can just go on another forum and post that he is.
If it is such a major issue for you why don't you contact any of the people mentioned in your previous post and ask them to clarify then when you post on here you can back it up with facts.
It might be just me, but I'm fairly sure other people will agree, that if I have a gripe with something/someone I will not go to another forum and post just so people can all have a good women's tea party behind their back. I would either just forget it or if it mattered that much ask them.
I enjoy both forums and learn a lot from each because there are a lot of people with vast amounts of experience but in my opinion the bickering is petty and boring!
I won't be posting again on this thread - I need to get through this season of 24 tonight :)
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Adding a spray unit does save time the oscillating motion is better than a rotary but when I had mine I didn't think it was significantly better on carpet.
Shaun
Shaun balance and speed are superb on this machine, and because you get glides with it you can get great results on medium and deep carpet piles too.
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O my God John, you are so boring. You need to get a life. Is life in America so dull you have to keep posting the same old slagging stuff on here? Even the non Solution fans are bored of you now
I have a life :) if you could see my Irish IP you would see i always post from a mobile device ...
Sorry you find the technical stuff boring , but i am arguing about a technical detail not slagging anyone off ... its you thats resorted to that .
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I'm sure your model is way better than the challenger I had, the glides are a must I had approx 5 different ones.
Shaun
Ps John is a valued member of the forum please we don't want any personal attacks on members lets keep it professional gentlemen.
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Can someone tell me exactly what is the "ocsillating motion" ?
And glides? think I need to see one ion action
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Check out challenger op
Shaun
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Google hbot orot, loads on youtube
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I always find the tech info mind numbingly boring! ;D but in all fairness to John, he seems to know his stuff, and to have someone like that on any board is a bonus to all the members,
He does ask some good questions
;D
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lol at how LM has snuck its way into this thread ;D
I like the look of the sprayborg although i believe the cimex is rated better ?
I can clean good with a 175 but i would feel inadequate turning up to a job with just a 175 and a ringer ... people instantly recognize it as some sort of floor buffer .
the sprayborg i would feel confidant with ! ... but im not sure if its practical for domestic ?
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;D
Deflection often calms ;)
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To change the subject completely ;D
Although John does often seem to have an axe to grind the point is a good one.
From what i understand the "wrong" equipment was used to measure in the recent Ashby's video of the enforcer, whether that is deliberate or just an innocent mistake you can make your own mind up, but the power figures is one of the most important factors when we choose a machine. I don't want to be mislead when spending my hard earned.
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It's an interesting "tactic" to focus on one particular part of an argument. Alistair Campell, when he was not lying was very good at arguing an unimportant point so loudly that it totally covered up the main issue.
Following on, I see the Arm & Hammer tooth whitening ad (with Katy Hill) has had to be withdrawn. Yes it did increase the whiteness(?) for about twenty five per cent of the sample. The ASA found however, that it had no effect on about fifty percent but actually darkened the teeth of the remaining twenty five percent! (figures approximate).
They did not tell you that in the ad. Lesson here... focus on the bit that you can win.
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Sorry all my fault John re LM as for feeling inadequate don’t take the ringer ;D ;)
Paul
I will only if I get commercial work ::) ::) ;D ;D ;)
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Paul did you buy the weight kit with your Orbot? The Yanks on Encapboard says it makes a huge improvement.
mark
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Sorry all my fault John re LM as for feeling inadequate don’t take the ringer ;D ;)
Paul
I will only if I get commercial work ::) ::) ;D ;D ;)
No problem ! probably more relevant than the OP's topic :D
Should say i wouldn't be without a 175 ... just the thought of having nothing but i find more daunting ...
The newer slim motor 15" Cimex i'v seen on the US forums looks lightweight ... might make a good domestic/ commercial allrounder ?
But the sprayborg is just cool :)
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Paul did you buy the weight kit with your Orbot? The Yanks on Encapboard says it makes a huge improvement.
mark
Yep Mark i bought everything i could get my mitts on with the exception of the hard floor stuff as Jamie was in the early stages of testing it out.
I wanted mine for carpets only and ceramic tile cleaning. Butif the results are godd on hard floors then i will investin that too.