Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: AshWhite on September 07, 2012, 06:34:36 pm
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Last week I started having problems with TM being lethargic to start, the next day it wouldnt start at all unless I jump started it. I took the battery off, charged it overnight, next day it was fine for the first couple of jobs, then died on its arse again.
I changed the battery for a new one on Tuesday (assuming the battery wasnt holding a charge), all been ok until this afternoon when my water feed stopped - I could only get the pump supplying the header tank to function by connecting the battery to the van battery for the remainder of the job (God bless extra long jump leads!).
So it seems as though the TM is not charging the battery, anyone know how the system works?It's a Hydramaster Boxxer 421 with B&S V-Twin air cooled engine. Is it an alternator, or some sort of dynamo?
Appreciate any help
Ash
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It’s a magneto type look for two yellow leads and you will find it (BS normally bolt them to engine starter side) after testing it and it’s kaput! Highly recommend your new one be relocate it from the heat of the engine
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Magneto, Len. They call them regulators. ;) yep bolted on the side of engine - whoever thought that was a great idea ???
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New one off Hydramaster about £48 2mins to change ;)
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Cheers gents, I'll give HM a ring on Monday
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As I said magneto type unlike dynamos or alternators which use a lot of copper wiring, all use some type of voltage regulator or your frazzled ;) Spares make the world go round, someone had insight :o
Sorry it may also have a red lead
Think ten to fifteen minutes to gather your thoughts on how to……. 48quid and bad
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run a heavy duty live feed from your van battery.
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run a heavy duty live feed from your van battery.
I agree.
Gets rid of battery, and is less weight. But more importantly you wont get a flat battery if you have issues with the TM trying to re-charge! and if the TM is troublesome to start then all you need to do is start the van engine and hey presto! Havent run a TM for over 3yrs.
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I have altered a few truckmounts for people now. Scrap the TMs battery and as already said use the power from the vans battery. Transits are the easiest as the battery is under the drivers seat. B&S engines are well known for giving up charging. Useless design that they have used for donkeys years.
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I have a live feed put into the back when I order my vehicle, it comes with a fuse fitted incase the wire rubs against the body and grounds it's self ( the wire goes red hot melts the outer plastic and makes so much smoke you think your van is on fire)
It also has a kill switch fitted to isolate TM. I asked them to also put a diesel feed into the back so I would,nt need a fuel tank for the TM but they said modern vans have a pressurised system so you can,t tap into the fuel line.
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If ditching the TM battery and just running a live from the van is there anything else I need to do? Or is it that simple?
Couldn't get my head round the fact of what if: The van & TM are running together? would there be any probs with the TM & Van charging the same battery??
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Hi Guys
Funnily enough I have been having the same problem with my Cobalt and have been charging evrey night!
I have bought a new reugulator and tried to fit it but access is very difficult.
When you say run a live feed, do you come through the cab?
Cheers
Doug
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Yes come through the cab. It is very easy to do. Each time i have done it i have used the cable from heavy duty booster cables. Look at the machine, locate the red cable that normally goes to the battery and trace it to where it fits on the machine. Disconnect that lead and connect the new one. Next get the new black cable and connect to a good earth on the machine. I usually fit a round connector on the lead and bolt it to where the machine is bolted through the floor or to the fresh tank (if sub mounted). Next, connect the black cable to the van battery and then the red. THATS IT. Your ready to go. As Mike has said you could fit a inline fuse and a kill switch. Each person tht has asked me to fit it this way there has been no need for those as the bulk heads have been wooden. If fitting through a metal bulk head then id use a rubber gromit to prevent the cables from damage.
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Anyone still unsure could always give me a call .
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Cheers Richie, what size fuse would you recommend??
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mine goes from the battery past the engine and underneath the van then comes up through the floor next to the truckmount. it is ran through garden hose pipe to give it extra protection against rubbing against the frame and shorting out. I cable tie it to the chassie.
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Sounds like a good idea.
Do you then do anyway with the regulator ?
I mean does the TM need to be recharging the van battery as it runs, in the same way as when the van is running?
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No, no at all. Once its running then it is independent and uses no battery power. The only time the van battery uses juice is to start the TM. I know what you mean though - is it charging the battery in the van as its running? Well yes I guess it must do. But its never an issue. Like I said, been running the van battery only on different TM's for the past 3yrs - and never had one single problem of any kind.
As already mentioned, I have my cables going through a rubber grommet as my bulkhead is steel. I like Mike's idea though of running it under and back up again - its probably easier to do that tbh.
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Does anyone fuse it? If so what size fuse??
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The way I see it is, whether its from a battery sitting next to the TM, or alternatively by another one from the van - either one using the same cables, then its the same thing - as they are the same object (just swapped)? If its connected via a battery sitting next to the TM, thats all it is - 2 cables, black and red with nothing inbetween, no fuses nothing.
So I dont worry about it tbh running a fuse. I think the TM is protected anyway via its own fuse box. But having said that, if you really want to run a fuse then I would go for something like a 15 or 20amp blade type.
I suppose its better to be safe than sorry Nick.
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Hi Guiys
Thanks for the info.
I believe the pumps use charge but a heavy duty van battery would not be affected unless you ran the TM for a long time without driving in between jobs.
Cheers
Doug
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Wish I did it when my regulator went.
I'm sure I paid a lot more for the regulator than mentioned in earlier posts, I thought it was £180 or was it £80 :-\
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I've never used a fuse before, its just that when i had the van supplied new the Auto-electrician said he had to fit a fuse to protect the electrical system so as not to void the warranty,
but on other vans I've twice had the supply wire rub through and ground its self, (which like I said) burns off all the plastic coating of the wire and fills the van with smoke.
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Mike Regarding the fuel line, the line might be pressurized after the pump but the tank wouldn't be would it. So a line could be dropped in there.?
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Im not sure about what fuse to have inline but to be honest i wouldnt bother. Like Kev said as standard there isnt a fuse inline so why bother. Best thing to do would consult a auto electrician if you really want to fuse inline. It may not be as simple as thinking 20amp been enough because you may have to go higher due to the cranking amps from the starter motor.....
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I like the sound of this, my van is a Citroen Relay, the battery is under the bonnet, offside, so I suppose coming through the cab (or under it) would be the best option.
Is 50mm wire overkill?
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I was think more around 80-100amp possibly more. The only thing that bothers me is if you do not have it fused and something went wrong there is just no way and insurer would pay out due to incorrect wiring. The wiring for a caravan towbar socket must be fused and is now part of the MOT where fitted and for good reason. All these electrics are tested and for good reason.
There is no way I want a permanent live cable that is not fused possibley running through or under my van. Could be fatal! And would highly recommend it be fused as close to the battery if anyone does this.
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£180 for the regulator.
I'm concerned that if I ditch the battery, a faulty regulator might cause a big drain on the van battery if the machine is in use for a longer period - has anyone bypassed the battery while still keeping a knackered regulator?
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Nevermind, I'm guessing that a split charging relay would bypass that problem.
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you would still need to replace the regulator otherwise the tm would be drawing all the power from the van battery and that would be embarrassing not being able to start the van on a customers drive.
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Goron, I was under the impression that a split charge relay would 'break' the connection once the van battery dropped below a certain level?
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why would it keep drawing power from the van? I thought it only used power as you turned the key to turn the starter motor,once the the t/m is running it doesn't keep using power.
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Mike, from my understanding (and the problem I've had), the pump supplying the header tank from the fresh water tank is powered directly from the battery, not the engine.
In fact, that's definately the case as the pump fills the tank before starting the engine.
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yes you are right I forgot about the demand pump, this will constantly take power from the battery but how much does it use? it will only operate intermittently
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Enough to cause me a problem on Friday - engine was running but no water supply, switched the engine off and had to jump it to restart, few minutes later exactly the same thing happened. Even if its a low draw, a big job close to home (ie not much charge put back into battery) would still give you issues so its worth getting it right.
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Surely the demand pump only draws from the battery once the TM key is turned to its first position, thus filling the header tank prior to starting the engine. If its in the off position nothing happens ???
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Honestly all these way to get out of having a small battery for your TM, I can see why MIke does it he builds his own but the rest of us, come on Its less than £100 for the part, get it fitted, if you skimp on maintenance and repairs, it will always bite you in the bum.
One of my van has three batteries in it one for the night heater one for the TM and one for the Van, Left my light on once was spoilt for choice which one to jump the van from.
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Kev the pump cuts in and out all the time the machine is running plus anything else that uses 12v on the machine will be drawing from the battery and if your van is switched off and you have no regulator that battery is not going to be topped up.
Do it right keep the tm separate and fix the regulator.
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Paul, the part is £180+vat, on top of the battery I bought last week, the charger,and a booster pack! What also concerns me is that this is obviously not a part that goes once in a blue moon (judging by the amount of others that have had the same problem).
Kev, as Goron mentioned, the pump also drains the battery to keep the header tank topped up when you're working. Normally this drain would be compensated for by the regulator, or a sufficient charge when you're driving around between jobs if you've got a split charging system.
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£180 for a Briggs regulator ??? Where was that from??. Should be nearer £50. Search Briggs regulator on EBay
Regards
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There's various types depending on rating - the one I need is 50 amps as opposed to 15 or 20 amps (or similar).
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Ok, wasnt thinking lol!
Agree that the pump draws from the battery prior to starting, but once the TM is running - its engine is keeping the battery charged and topped up - so shouldnt cause the battery to run low - unless there is a problem with the actual charging from the TM.
Ive never had a battery run low using only the van battery to run a TM.
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Normally Kev, Yes - but with the knackered regulator the TM isn't putting charge back into the battery, and could also drain the van battery at the same time by undercharging. I think I'm right that by fitting a split charging relay which tops up the tm battery once the van battery is full will avoid the problem, as it breaks the connection once the van battery is below a certain level.
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Oh ok Ash, with you now mate, I'm not reading the posts properly! Hope you get it sorted.
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http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Briggs-and-Stratton-Voltage-Regulator-Replaces-394890-/220757374468?pt=UK_Garden_Lawnmowers&hash=item33662a3604#ht_556wt_732
that or it the receiving coil thats up the spout, take it to your local lawn mower specialist they will have one floating around.
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Cheers Paul, but it's not that one. It's got 4 yellow leads going in to 2 connector blocks, and 1 red wire going to live.
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There's various types depending on rating - the one I need is 50 amps as opposed to 15 or 20 amps (or similar).
Ash - the 421 uses a 20amp regulator
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Not according to Martin @ Hydramaster when I called today (I gave model number)?
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What's the one you have on there at present - like the one on Paul's eBay link in which case it's a 20 amp - or is it an oblong shape with tram lines on top in which case it is 50 amp
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Tram lines on top (I think!) and a green translucent panel on the side facingyou as you look at it. It's also got more wires than the one Paul posted.
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Well we have a Boxxer 421 fitted into a Transit that uses the van battery, never had a problem with the van battery going dead even when the truckmount is running 10 - 12 hours at a nightclub.
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Richie, does your regulator work ok?