Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Jack Judd on August 14, 2012, 10:33:31 pm
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New to the forum, but needed a platform to voice an opinion. I run a small and so far successful window cleaning business. I have a mix of domestic customers and commercial customers. I have worked very hard to win commercial customers through hard work, good prospecting, through letters, phone calls and arranged meetings. I turn up and quote for the work or tender for the business and then myself or one of my team will fulfil the agreed work. I have also worked very hard at maintaining a reasonable profit margin on my work.
Well let it be known that these large companies that are providing the so called national clean to commercial contracts are creating an environment where no of us will be earning any money in 10 years. They are no different to the fat cat bankers and I blame them and the small minded people that are prepared to work for peanuts in order to get a commercial contract for destroying the hard work of the individual local companies.
My Window Cleaning Company has been cleaning one restaurant of an Italian chain based in Malvern for 3 years. A lot of windows and we had a good working relationship. I turn up to complete the job this Monday find that there is another window cleaning company parked outside. I find out that they have cleaned the windows inside and out. Without being told the chain of restaurants is trailing a nationwide contract clean.
ped off that I cut the family holiday short to complete the weekly clean was bad enough, but then to find out that the fats cats that got the national contract, and no company is bigger enough to clean all the windows in the UK, so what do they do, subcontract to another company, who then subcontracts again to a one man show who is prepared to work for nothing to get the job done and be part of the commercial contract world.
Margins are squeezed as the fat cats that won the contract take their profit without no doubt cleaning a window and then on to the next middle man who takes his cut and then finally our one man band that is prepared to prostitute themselves. The result is that the value for each job will go down and down. What I heard from the little guy who wants the commercial work is that don’t blame me, I was instructed by the fat cats who I have recently started working for. My point is that if you want commercial work, go and win it yourselves, if we become enslaved by the large cleaning companies that are positioning themselves as having the ability to conduct a national cleaning contract but in fact just outsource it to the little guys then there will be no money in this industry in the near future except for the large monopolistic cleaning organisations.
If you are a local company you have the right to work and win the commercial work for that area without giving that profit to two middle men before you get your cut. Where is everybody’s initiative? If you set up a business then be a business and be a business man and don’t let yourself be pimped by the large companies.
If all local businesses refused to be subcontracted, then very quickly the large companies that have only got large through the little guy’s hard work will not be able to complete a “national clean” and then won’t be able to be squeezed themselves on price which they pass down the line and each business would have a chance to negotiate with local businesses. God I am furious. >:(
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God I am furious. >:(
Don't be. It's nothing personal; it's just the way the World is. I used to clean a small family ran grocery store (Howell's for the local lads). Then Tescos opened up and they started struggling and then directly across the road from them a Lidls opened up and they survived for another few years by 'diversifying' into selling hot food (pasties 'n' stuff), but eventually had to close. They'd been in business for about 40 years; the son took over from the father.
As I say, it's the way things are; we're not the only ones affected. Your anger does nothing to change anything; it'll just annoy yourself and your family. Acceptance is the key 'n' all that gubbins.
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The metaphor of the grocery example is good but acceptance of a blissful pleasant state is good, but we do have the power to create change towards a more blissful state and then acceptance, (if we are talking Taoism here. If we sit back and take it then we are nothing but foot soldiers underneath a dictatorship. Tesco's would be in every town in this country if people hadn't made a stand. My point of the little guy working for the middlemen is that they don't realise that they are doing no favours to themselves or the industry in the long term. If we all and this is highly unlikely sourced our own commercial work rather than accepting the poor pay of being subcontracted then it would prevent the monopoly type state of Tesco's who screws any supplier that wants to sell their products and services to them. The same applies. We will be left with a couple of companies that win all commercial contracts nationwide and it will be them who are the only ones making money. Do you want to be a dairy farmer or a self sufficient successful business owner?
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I have been contacted a couple of times by nationals and they don't like it when I laugh hysyerically down the phone at the rates offered,I know what your saying,we should all refuse to do them...!,
Graham
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Tesco's are successful because they offer an excellent level of customer service, with a very good range of products at highly competitive prices.
they started as a small company same as we all do.
you want to compete in any industry you have to compete on service, cost, marketing... everything.
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but we do have the power to create change towards a more blissful state and then acceptance, (if we are talking Taoism here. If we sit back and take it then we are nothing but foot soldiers underneath a dictatorship.
I agree wholeheartedly; acceptance doesn't mean just bending over and taking it; acceptance simply means understanding the reality of a situation.
And I think in these circumstances that the reality is that we can't change the situation. If you refuse to do sub contract work, someone else will quite happily do it. If anyone thinks they can harness the unruly mob of UK window cleaners into some sort of uniform body that will agree not to undertake sub contract jobs, then I would like to see them try.
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Supply and demand. That's what it all boils down to.
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It's the customer who decides ultimately.
YOU are your unique selling point. The ones who like YOU will stay with you.
Worry not.
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It's the customer who decides ultimately.
YOU are your unique selling point. The ones who like YOU will stay with you.
Worry not.
What about price?
Big firms like Tesco don't care about individuals.
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10
Years ago if have had you lot all out on strike. Globalisation is real and their is a powerful force at work.
Opt out.
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It's the customer who decides ultimately.
YOU are your unique selling point. The ones who like YOU will stay with you.
Worry not.
What about price?
Big firms like Tesco don't care about individuals.
It is so much not about price.
Most important lesson to learn in window cleaning.
I've only been on board a couole of months and I have learnt to see my customers as friends I have just not met yet.
Don't aim too high and you will be surprised what you hit.
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It's the customer who decides ultimately.
YOU are your unique selling point. The ones who like YOU will stay with you.
Worry not.
What about price?
Big firms like Tesco don't care about individuals.
It is so much not about price.
Most important lesson to learn in window cleaning.
I've only been on board a couole of months and I have learnt to see my customers as friends I have just not met yet.
Don't aim too high and you will be surprised what you hit.
Have you been drinking (I have btw) or have you turned into Boshravie? ;D
He's talking about the nationals; it's all about the price........nearly.
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Have you been drinking (I have btw)
Drinking on a Tuesday evening? Actually, it's Wednesday morning; a morning drinker eh?
Tut tut tut. :-\
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Have you been drinking (I have btw)
Drinking on a Tuesday evening? Actually, it's Wednesday morning; a morning drinker eh?
Tut tut tut. :-\
Yesh, hic. We usually have a drink on a week night, the rebels that we are. But it is was her birthday, today, so just a bottle of red wine between us (and I might have a sneaky Courvoisier, she's gone to bed).
Probably have one later today, if we go out for tea, as well. Too much of a rush to go on her birthday.
That it'll be it 'til Saturday; that's if I bother, then.
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well put post mate i have a simple answer to all this commercial crap,
just dont do it,
domestic has its problems but these things dont happen so its much better
i thought ill be posh had a crack at it chasing commercial, dont like they expect you to almost beg and price per man days paid in 60 days and all these rules no thanks...chasing the Decision maker
also sometimes you cant earn as much as you can say cleaning a row or houses.
you,ll never catch me doing anythign crazy like commercial m8t unless its a pub or something
my rule is if they want there windows cleaned they need to pay upfront commercial never to be trusted over £50 they got a problem thats fine id rather clean bay window fronts all day anyway
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nationals suck big time.
They lie and cheat their way into worthless contracts, then simply don't do the work, while making sure the bill is sent out.
I would say they are a joke, but it is not funny.
I take any opportunity to kick them in the sack.
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I have been contacted a couple of times by nationals and they don't like it when I laugh hysyerically down the phone at the rates offered,I know what your saying,we should all refuse to do them...!,
Graham
I do ............. no point in working for pennies ............ why bother ?
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I refuse also, to work for the nationals,
But, seeing all the comparisons are about tesco's etc, how many of us do all our shopping at small independent shops, none probably.
Its about cost & convienience
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National's can offer much more than a window clean, this is the reason they are taken on. Window cleaning is only a small part of facilities management. Internal store washing, bathroom washing, floor scrub, elecrtical and plumbing maintenance and repair and much more. National's supply all this for an agreed price for any contractual period.
Thing's have changed in the last decade, so you just have to move on to something else. The local shop windie cleaner's day's for large chain stores are almost nearly over. Stop blabbering like a big girl and see the world how it is. The sooner you do, the better you will be.
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Hi Jack
I totally agree and never take on work offered by nationals. I have been window cleaning many years, and the thing is there is always someone out there that will do it.
Roy
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I have been contacted a couple of times by nationals and they don't like it when I laugh hysyerically down the phone at the rates offered,I know what your saying,we should all refuse to do them...!,
Graham
I do ............. no point in working for pennies ............ why bother ?
i agree i wont work for them not for a few quid. if we all stand together and dont do it we could force a change. BUT there will always be somebody who will work for peanuts. i just dont clean shops anymore. no more getting up early to clean them ;D ;D
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The point has been largely missed as my gripe is not the same as the Tesco Metaphor as they actually provide you with a good level of service, quality food and a smile as much as I dislike their buying procedures. In the outsourced example the level of services deteriorates due to how much the individual guy is earning and can afford to spend on the job. Also a weekly clean which is what this chain originally had is now lost to a 2 week clean as this was the deal struck which is such a bad deal for the restaurant as if you have ever seen an interior window on a busy Italian restaurant after a week, ( greasy hand prints which Pure Water does not remove). But it is not a tailored solution for a company but an easy deal that is made over price and nothing else. The individual manager s will be largely disappointed, as well the little guy that has had to beg and be given a little underpriced (work which totally devalues their worth) . I blame the little guy more than I do the national as after being in business myself he is the one that is changing the face of the industry. Win your own commercial contracts and as for crying like a baby, I would say fighting like a tiger is more like it.
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It's the customer who decides ultimately.
YOU are your unique selling point. The ones who like YOU will stay with you.
Worry not.
On domestic work I agree; on commercial work, especially big chains, that's a load of rubbish I'm afraid. A little, faceless man will sit in head office and decide what is going to happen. It happened to me at Iceland, merrily cleaning away at a few shops in Plymouth and then all of a sudden being told that I was no longer needed, even though the shop managers wanted to keep us on.
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Blabbing like a girl was the little guy who said don't blame me for nicking your business, I was just told to come and clean the windows. Bullpoop by signing up to a large national contractor you are siding with the devil and putting a stake through the business heart of all the hard working businesss that by some means had originally won that business. I do blame you and all others that behave like Mary's little cheap lamb.
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well said that man ...!
Graham
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When commercial clients decide to use a national company, does the level of the window cleaning deteriorate?
For example, I clean a small row of shops, except for one shop (Coral) which I believe is cleaned by a national company. It is by far the dirtiest shop front.
Do the local Managers not eventually contact head office and complain about the service they are receiving going downhill? I'm thinking in particular those that must have clean shop fronts at all times (restaurants, for example).
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I do work for a property management company who sub it off a large nation company, I offer a 1st cleass service and I price accordingly.
The company who I work for now understand that if they want a 2st class service, then the price will reflect this, the company they sub contract work from still want the best deal possible, which I cannot say is wrong, because we all do it. Why pay £1200 for van insurance when you can get it for £788, I know this, because this happened, this year with my insurance renewel.
I have also turned down work by some nationals, when they want me to work for half the money I am already achieving, asking for window cleaners to refuse work to force the nationals from going after this work will not work, all they will do is add the cleaning of the windows to the duties of the general cleaners they already have on site, and get away with paying the minimum wage for the job.
What I have found works best is to get the customer to be vocal to the nationals, complain on a daily basis and create as much hassle as possible for them, they don't like this and then they either pay more for a better clean or increase the cleaining cycle.
You can also buy some shares in the likes of Tescos and at their next AGM you can go and vent your spleen against the CEO, but will you win back more business for the local guy???
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it sounds like the debate here is between self employed and employed. the reason the 'little man' works for the national contractors is because he gets guaranteed hours, holiday pay, sick pay, a boss to scare him out of bed every morning.
the self employed have none of this, but they also have a lot less power than the national companies.
as mentioned previously, this is an issue that has been experienced by most other trades before us- butchers, car mechanics, fruit and veg stores, coffe shops, local book shops etc. The bottom line where 99% of the population is concerned is the price of what theyre buying. If they can get it cheaper from tescos or whatever then they will because at the end of the day, people care about themselves and thats it.
the doom and gloom about national companies doing all the commercials is simply not goin to happen. yes, it wll happen to all chain stores but then why wouldnt it? chain stores makes sense to have a 'chain store window cleaning company'. We will not be ruined because of this, just simply focus on the jobs the nationals cant do.
and with regards to protesting against these actions, do what i do and use independent shops etc whenever you can. We are only one person but so is everyone else, vote with your actions and be as powerful as you can be
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I agree with the advice of talking to the individual manager as that is the first thinh that we did. I don't think it is about self employed versus employed as the little guy sets up a business as a sole trader, enjoys the life of running his own business, the freedom as well as all the challenges, is happy with the number of domestic customers and then decides that to be successful I need to being doing some commercial. I know what I will do I will go and strip myself naked and work for some crap wage again. I won't get sick pay or a company car but it's good to be rodgered again from a boss who isn't really a boss but throws me some loose change once in a while. Surely that is not why the little guy went into buisiness in the first place. Rant finished, gotto go and win some more business on my own. ;D
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I don't know if it's already been said on this thread as I've not read all of it. (Too lazy)
IMO that's the way of the market. In my time in this game, about 20 years or so, I've found that large contracts go with price. The odd shops go with service and a face if you know what I mean. Nationals can only hit big contracts usually. I've always found that when I've got smaller commercial customers that I've had for at least a year, they tend to be loyal.
I couldn't imagine nationals trying to go into the domestic side of window cleaning. That could be a disaster for them.
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I view it this way. I actually like to do a good job for my customers. A window is a window and I don't differentiate between commercial and domestic - I stay away from commercial or domestic that want a cheap (usually cruddy) job.
If my customer decides they want a cheaper job they likely will get a less conscientious window cleaner. The Italian restaurant chain will lose it's (if they had any) more discerning punters. Imagine how they source their ingredients if they are so cheap on their image as to go to fortnightly cleaning in an industry where presented cleanliness is paramount.
Let it go in all senses of the word and be grateful that some busy fool will do it for nowt and not have the nouse to go for more lucrative stuff while you will.
Somebody above said that "down his way" the local shop managers like to have a good clean exterior; the exception being "Coral's" who have the filthiest looking windows and which are done by a national. That's the point really - "down my way" Coral's look shabby too. The thing is the local chavs who stock up on Fags, Quavers and Jammy Dodgers don't care.
Just work for people who mirror your mindset - I do both commercial and domestic and I have some commercial stuff in Avonmouth - Avonmouth has a reputation for being industrial and mucky and most light industrials with offices couldn't care how filthy their windows are - they sell industrial stuff to industrial people and it's all part of the image. But here and there are people who want their business to reflect a bright image - that's the ones I clean for. They stand out, look smart and seem successful.
It goes in cycles; head office keener says cut costs; costs are cut and quality is cut; local manager finally says to his line manager "the place looks a dump" and if it gets bad enough he'll get told to find his own cleaner. Then it starts all over again.
I had a good customer go to a big firm in 2008 - the job they did was hit and miss and cruddy - a year later I sent a letter to my old contact and said - Hi, Ian, hope you don't think I'm being rude but your windows look really shabby, is this the image you want to present? If you can persuade your head office to cut you loose I'll do them at my last years rate.
Heard nothing. A full year after that I got an email saying a foreign director from head office was visiting, could I do a one off? I said yes if they pay a premium for the first clean (cuz they were so badly cleaned) and give me a years contract. I've been doing them again for three years.
But others you lose and that's it - on to the next.
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New to the forum, but needed a platform to voice an opinion. I run a small and so far successful window cleaning business. I have a mix of domestic customers and commercial customers. I have worked very hard to win commercial customers through hard work, good prospecting, through letters, phone calls and arranged meetings. I turn up and quote for the work or tender for the business and then myself or one of my team will fulfil the agreed work. I have also worked very hard at maintaining a reasonable profit margin on my work.
Well let it be known that these large companies that are providing the so called national clean to commercial contracts are creating an environment where no of us will be earning any money in 10 years. They are no different to the fat cat bankers and I blame them and the small minded people that are prepared to work for peanuts in order to get a commercial contract for destroying the hard work of the individual local companies.
My Window Cleaning Company has been cleaning one restaurant of an Italian chain based in Malvern for 3 years. A lot of windows and we had a good working relationship. I turn up to complete the job this Monday find that there is another window cleaning company parked outside. I find out that they have cleaned the windows inside and out. Without being told the chain of restaurants is trailing a nationwide contract clean.
ped off that I cut the family holiday short to complete the weekly clean was bad enough, but then to find out that the fats cats that got the national contract, and no company is bigger enough to clean all the windows in the UK, so what do they do, subcontract to another company, who then subcontracts again to a one man show who is prepared to work for nothing to get the job done and be part of the commercial contract world.
Margins are squeezed as the fat cats that won the contract take their profit without no doubt cleaning a window and then on to the next middle man who takes his cut and then finally our one man band that is prepared to prostitute themselves. The result is that the value for each job will go down and down. What I heard from the little guy who wants the commercial work is that don’t blame me, I was instructed by the fat cats who I have recently started working for. My point is that if you want commercial work, go and win it yourselves, if we become enslaved by the large cleaning companies that are positioning themselves as having the ability to conduct a national cleaning contract but in fact just outsource it to the little guys then there will be no money in this industry in the near future except for the large monopolistic cleaning organisations.
If you are a local company you have the right to work and win the commercial work for that area without giving that profit to two middle men before you get your cut. Where is everybody’s initiative? If you set up a business then be a business and be a business man and don’t let yourself be pimped by the large companies.
If all local businesses refused to be subcontracted, then very quickly the large companies that have only got large through the little guy’s hard work will not be able to complete a “national clean” and then won’t be able to be squeezed themselves on price which they pass down the line and each business would have a chance to negotiate with local businesses. God I am furious. >:(
Bang on post mate, I lost a cracking southern cross care home to UK commercial, they are doing it for peanuts and doing a very very poor job. I know this as the caretaker told me its subbed and subbed and subbed so many times the idiot who dose it can't make money out of it so cuts corners. Stick together and say no, yes I agree but how we can achieve this in this economic climate I dont know? Great post mate keep your chin up and keep posting.
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Nice one Paul! :-[
I was thinking McColls as in the corner shop - not Coral's the bookies. Duuuuuh! ;D
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Gold, Thank you, a top reply and what I needed to hear. Will now lay low for a while as the moderator for this site was one of the nationals that passed my business onto someone else without even bothering to find out who the current window cleaner was. The reason I take so much offense to perhaps what seems a matter of course to others is that I value, take pride and work hard to do a good job for my customers. The Nationals are the moderators, very big brother!!!!
Good bye 8)
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Don't leave Jack, this sounds interesting - are you saying that one of our mods has quoted and got a contract you had and then got cheaper guys in to clean the place?
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Don't leave Jack, this sounds interesting - are you saying that one of our mods has quoted and got a contract you had and then got cheaper guys in to clean the place?
sounds like it. hope hes back to spill he beans :)
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Hands up Mods, which one of you is guilty?
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Tosh gets the contracts and gets Squeaky to clean them on the cheap. In return, Tosh keeps quiet about Squeaky's receding hairline.
Oops......sorry, Squeaks :-X.
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Tosh gets the contracts and gets Squeaky to clean them on the cheap. In return, Tosh keeps quiet about Squeaky's receding hairline.
Oops......sorry, Squeaks :-X.
;D
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stick to domestic,(small,medium,large) and medium commercial jobs like care homes,nurseries,offices etc.
its working for me!i never get any issues of the kind you mentioned!!! :D :D :D
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I started doing some of the national 3rd hand subbed stuff late last year early this year
If you are already cleaning loads of shops in one area they can pay even the really cheap one
But they are more hassle than they're worth, i lost them all again in no time and vowed never to do another job that wasn't mine or subbed from an acquaintance which actually paid well
The trouble with the national stuff is lads who have little work or rubbish domestic work will do it as its easy cleaning even though the hourly rate is often atrocious , but they will skip and rush through to make it pay or even miss some completely
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I do some for nationals, money isnt great but I can earn whilst waiting for other shops to open. I still do some old jobs which the nationals do, managers fed up with service etc, did Argos a couple of weeks ago, its supposed to be cleaned every two weeks and nobody had turned up for over 6 weeks, so the manager came and found me and paid me out of the petty cash. BHS is another which has just gone national, manager is now paying out of petty cash for windows because of the poor service, first the national guy turned up just before opening and proceded to water fed pole everything leaving the main entrance absolutely soaked, customers were slipping all over the place, they asked him not to use wfp and since they he rarely turns up.
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All business is an auction. More actually its like a Dutch auction where the prices come down. Tosh's analagy with tescos is good but I can give another.
Ten or more years ago the cab fare from here to the airport was around £20. Harrow Taxis quoted £25 and did loads. Today there are at least six more cab firms in the area that have opened up and some of them are advertising it for £12.50.
Thats an hour there and an hour back (no they can't pick up at the airport) plus the dead hour before when you can't do much else because you have a booked job. Fuel around £5 or more fees to the cab company and the running costs on your vehicle.
So what sort of person is going to work for about £2 an hour? I think we all know the answer to that
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You pay peanuts,you get monkeys!!
TBH after looking a the 'standard' of their work you would be better off letting a monkey loose with a squeegee!
;)
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You pay peanuts,you get monkeys!!
TBH after looking a the 'standard' of their work you would be better off letting a monkey loose with a squeegee!
;)
Yes but the people are there and they are prepared to work for peanuts. Thats the whole basis of the problem. Simply by existing they are a threat to us.
We can sit on our pedestals and say its ridiculous and it will not be good work but in the end money is like water, it all comes to the same level eventually. Thats basic economics.
£50-60 is a weeks wages in Poland. Poland is £36 away on easy jet. It doesn't take much to figure it out. We are already seeing an influx of workers from Greece, Spain, Portugal and Italy because of the troubles over there. All round the med countries there are people begging on the streets now. Its noticable.
A British worker cannot survive on those wages but a migrant who is only here for a few months to blitz a bit of cash, sleep on somebody's floor and not pay tax is OK with it. France and Germany won't allow it, they won't issue work permits and they can't work without them.
A little known fact I learned this week is that despite being an EU citizen British people cannot work in Italy without a work permit and they are hard to get. You can't get a residenzia (permit to live there) without having to provide details of income and financial well being.
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You pay peanuts,you get monkeys!!
TBH after looking a the 'standard' of their work you would be better off letting a monkey loose with a squeegee!
;)
Yes but the people are there and they are prepared to work for peanuts. Thats the whole basis of the problem. Simply by existing they are a threat to us.
We can sit on our pedestals and say its ridiculous and it will not be good work but in the end money is like water, it all comes to the same level eventually. Thats basic economics.
£50-60 is a weeks wages in Poland. Poland is £36 away on easy jet. It doesn't take much to figure it out. We are already seeing an influx of workers from Greece, Spain, Portugal and Italy because of the troubles over there. All round the med countries there are people begging on the streets now. Its noticable.
A British worker cannot survive on those wages but a migrant who is only here for a few months to blitz a bit of cash, sleep on somebody's floor and not pay tax is OK with it. France and Germany won't allow it, they won't issue work permits and they can't work without them.
A little known fact I learned this week is that despite being an EU citizen British people cannot work in Italy without a work permit and they are hard to get. You can't get a residenzia (permit to live there) without having to provide details of income and financial well being.
I have lost countless jobs to 'em,massive piece of my monthly income gone.
I just look at the job they do and laugh now!
Even more so when i watched the traffic warden stick at ticket on the van outside 1 of my old jobs!! :-*
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France and Germany won't allow it, they won't issue work permits and they can't work without them.
I'm afraid that is competely, totally and utterly untrue. Polish workers in Germany and France need no permit and are free to work.
Vin
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You pay peanuts,you get monkeys!!
TBH after looking a the 'standard' of their work you would be better off letting a monkey loose with a squeegee!
;)
A British worker cannot survive on those wages but a migrant who is only here for a few months to blitz a bit of cash, sleep on somebody's floor and not pay tax is OK with it. France and Germany won't allow it, they won't issue work permits and they can't work without them.
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sorry, didnt mean to post that without my comment. my comment is this - how can you say that immigrants come over here and earn as much money as they can and not pay tax on it, and then talk about france and germany having a better immigration policy because they need work permits? if they arent paying tax in the first place then they dont need a permit anyway!
to attribute this problem to immigrants is stupid and out of context. we are talking about national window cleaning companies, not taxi drivers. the nationals still have to pay a minimum wage, not £2 per hour. i agree with your point about the fact other people are willing to work for less than us but please try and stick to the facts.
in general terms, as mentioned by a few on this thread, if this really bothers you than dont get involved with the chain stores! its a cut throat business where money is the bottom line, so either fight really hard, or work somewhere else and stop moaning
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France and Germany won't allow it, they won't issue work permits and they can't work without them.
I'm afraid that is competely, totally and utterly untrue. Polish workers in Germany and France need no permit and are free to work.
Vin
No both countries invoked the optional seven year moratorium which ends about now I think. Then, whenever it runs out Polish people will be able to work in France and Germany if they can find anyone who will employ them which in France's case is unlikely because the French population is fiercely protectionist against foreign workers.
There are other reasons, English is the language taught in all the schools in Poland. Polish TV has a lot of english language prgrammes with subtitles so they are more comfortable with English. They get Coronation Street and Eastender (although what they make of it I can't imagine.) They also get all the American stuff same as we do.
German is spoken a little on the west side of the country and they hate the Germans anyway.French is virtually never spoken. So going to France will be difficult for them in more ways than one
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sorry, didnt mean to post that without my comment. my comment is this - how can you say that immigrants come over here and earn as much money as they can and not pay tax on it.
EU Citizens working in but not classed as resident in another EU country can opt to pay tax either in the country where the money is earned OR the country in which they are resident. In general that means neither as much of the money is earned through casual work of some form.
So if I sent you to Paris for a couple of months to clean windows for me you could opt to pay tax on what you earnt back here. But realistically, would you declare it once you got back........? Would anyone ever know? This is a loophole that is used a lot.
Workers working on the Olympic site all signed their contracts abroad. Some of them were working here for years but they quite legally didn't have to pay tax in this country. Did they declare it when they got home - I wonder
You say its wrong to attribute the woes of the cleaning industry to immigration (actually its migrant workers we are talking about) yet practically every house I go to that has a cleaner that cleaner is Eastern European. When do you ever see English people doing driveways or working in care homes. Even the dustmen round here are Eastern European. Where I take my van to be serviced all the mechanics are Lithuanians
Its only an extension of what happened here twenty years ago when builders and even window cleaners would come to London from South Wales or the North to work Mon-Fri then go home. Twenty five years ago my wife ended up in Hospital in Ibiza. The woman in the next bed came from Leeds, her husband was an electrician working on the new wing of our local hospital here in NW London.
Eastern Europeans work hard and they are good at what they do but simple economics means we cannot afford to live on what they can afford to live on. So they have the inside track. Simple really.
This part of North West london is the traditional epicentre of the Polish community in this country. The Polish war memorial is just down the road and we have Polski Shleps all over the place. There is a Polish free paper. I have worked in Poland (for a month) and I will be going to Poland later this year to visit some of the battlefields with a group I belong to that visits battlefields all over the world. I like them and admire them as a people, I am certainly not against them.
But its Darwinian, survival of the fittest and the simple fact is they are the fittest. Which brings me neatly back to the OP. They will beat us in the long run its inevetable. They are not killing the trade, Its us! we are just failing to keep up. Thats the truth of it
I can remember all the same sort of stuff in a different context when the Japanese cars and motorbikes started coming into the country. Why would anybody want to buy a Honda Civic when you can buy an Austin Allegro? Or a twin cylinder DOHC Honda 250 when you could buy a BSA C15? Jap crap they called it. Where is Austin and BSA now?
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France and Germany won't allow it, they won't issue work permits and they can't work without them.
I'm afraid that is competely, totally and utterly untrue. Polish workers in Germany and France need no permit and are free to work.
Vin
No both countries invoked the optional seven year moratorium which ends about now I think. Then whenever it runs out Polish people will be able to work in France and Germany if they can find anyone who will employ them which in France's case is unlikely because the French population is very protectionist.
There are other reasons, English is the language taught in the schools in Poland. Polish TV has a lot of english language prgrammes with subtitles so they are more comfortable with English. They get Coronation Street and Eastender although what they make of it I can't imagine. They also get all the American stuff.
German is spoken a little but French virtually never.
The moratorium is long over. France ended it a year earlier than they had planned in 2008, Germany in 2011.
Ill informed posts like yours lead to misunderstandings and can do no good at all. If you're going to state what you think are facts, at least make sure they are correct. Doubtless someone who read your "fact" is now spouting it off down the pub this evening to back up an argument.
Southampton has a huge number of Poles. They do nothing but bring good to the place. They all seem to have jobs, unlike the feckless, lazy good-for-nothing British kids who live around here who live on handouts. There are maybe 20-30 Polish run businesses within a mile of here. All of them pay tax in the UK - try checking the rules before you spout them again. In general, if you're in a country for more than six months, you're taxed there unless on a contract.
Lazy "bogeyman" posting, I'm afraid.
Vin
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France and Germany won't allow it, they won't issue work permits and they can't work without them.
I'm afraid that is competely, totally and utterly untrue. Polish workers in Germany and France need no permit and are free to work.
Vin
No both countries invoked the optional seven year moratorium which ends about now I think. Then whenever it runs out Polish people will be able to work in France and Germany if they can find anyone who will employ them which in France's case is unlikely because the French population is very protectionist.
There are other reasons, English is the language taught in the schools in Poland. Polish TV has a lot of english language prgrammes with subtitles so they are more comfortable with English. They get Coronation Street and Eastender although what they make of it I can't imagine. They also get all the American stuff.
German is spoken a little but French virtually never.
The moratorium is long over. France ended it a year earlier than they had planned in 2008, Germany in 2011.
Ill informed posts like yours lead to misunderstandings and can do no good at all. If you're going to state what you think are facts, at least make sure they are correct. Doubtless someone who read your "fact" is now spouting it off down the pub this evening to back up an argument.
Southampton has a huge number of Poles. They do nothing but bring good to the place. They all seem to have jobs, unlike the feckless, lazy good-for-nothing British kids who live around here who live on handouts. There are maybe 20-30 Polish run businesses within a mile of here. All of them pay tax in the UK - try checking the rules before you spout them again. In general, if you're in a country for more than six months, you're taxed there unless on a contract.
Lazy "bogeyman" posting, I'm afraid.
Vin
Southampton? where is that? never heard of it. Us Londoners are not too good on the provinces.
But as usual you didn't read my post. EU workers from any other EU country working in but not resident in this country do not have to pay UK tax. Thats a fact. And its not six months, thats only for cars. If they sign contracts abroad it can be virtually indefinitely because our Civil Service has no handle on it. Totally beyond their ability to administer it. That is another big problem but not for today. A loophole like that is big enough to drive a coach and horses through. The British disease. I seriously don't believe the British government has the slightest idea who is here, what they are doing or where they live.
In France you need a Billet and an ID card to work anywhere. Even as an Englishman you try getting one. Even try finding the office that issues them. You will find it close to impossible as its not listed anywhere. A wall of total silence.
But I agree with you totally, the poles round here are great too, better than our feckless scum, you don't have the monopoly of feckless scum in S'ton. I absolutely never said otherwise. What I said was they are beating us hands down at our own game and that is another fact. Which you seem to concur on. Please read the whole post before you start firing off your Mr Angry posts because you seem to actually agree with at least most of what I said.
They are winning, we are losing because they are better than us. And that is entirely our fault
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"Tax residence
The country where you are considered resident for tax purposes can tax your total world income including income you earn elsewhere (both within and outside the EU).
If you move to another country and spend more than 6 months a year there you might be considered a tax-resident there. That country might then be able to tax your total income, earned or unearned, from all countries worldwide.
If you spend less than 6 months a year in another country:
you would normally remain a tax-resident in your home country, that is, the country where you live. In that case, you would be subject to tax in the other country only on income and gains earned in that country."
From http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/work/abroad/taxes/index_en.htm
So, yes it IS (in general) six months for tax residency plus while you're abroad for fewer than six months you're still liable for their taxes on "income and gains earned in that country". You're just plain wrong again. You were wrong about working in France and Germany and now you're wrong about tax residence and tax liability. And before you spout off about contracts, I said "In general, if you're in a country for more than six months, you're taxed there unless on a contract." above. Most Poles round here have been here for several years and the ones I know (not all) are just in regular employment, so PAYE employees with tax being deducted.
There is no way to reconcile your guess that "EU workers from any other EU country working in but not resident in this country do not have to pay UK tax. Thats a fact." and "If you spend less than 6 months a year in another country: .... In that case, you would be subject to tax in the other country ... on income and gains earned in that country."
Saying "Thats a fact" does not make it so.
However, I understand that I'm just some kind of provincial yokel, so I'll leave you to have the last word. (Do try to quote some factual references in your response, as just guessing stuff and claiming it's factual isn't going to convince anyone at all.)
Vin
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It appears to have turned it to a political debate on this thread.
All that I can say is that if you enjoy your windows then it doesn't matter about the money. A bit like how millions of people are prepared to play park football every sunday without being on 200k a week like some of these prem stars.
Get out there on the glass and have a good time, you might get the odd store manager who gives you grief but you get a bit of that in retail window cleaning.
Get yourself a nice new printed t shirt and wash your van off and you can always at least pretend that you're earning a good wage. If you lose a docket for any of the stores over the monthly period then you won't get paid anyway, so that removes the debate of the hourly wage because you'll be cleaning for free. Almost like a special constable of the window cleaning world. A volunteer type of operative.
Its only money.
Dean.
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They are winning, we are losing because they are better than us. And that is entirely our fault
You talk sense in the majority of your posts but who are the 'they are winning , we are losing?'
Stop trying to be possessive of stuff that isn't and never will be yours anyway.
ps a little tip for an easier life is to remember that, you will always lose while your trying to stop others from doing their thing.
It's shameful to begrudge others. And it restricts your ability to adapt. :-*
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Blabbing like a girl was the little guy who said don't blame me for nicking your business, I was just told to come and clean the windows. Bullpoop by signing up to a large national contractor you are siding with the devil and putting a stake through the business heart of all the hard working businesss that by some means had originally won that business. I do blame you and all others that behave like Mary's little cheap lamb.
Sadly the truth is that none of us 'own' the work we do, and someone cheaper/better can take any of it, any time, that's just business.
If you have a run of 8 shops in a shopping centre like I do and a national chucks another your way, you take it on, why wouldn't you. But I pushed the guy's price up by about 40%, the work is still about £35 per hour for that shop.
For the shops national contracts can make sense, they only deal with one firm, they pay one bill each month, Primark went over to a national contract when their windy had an accident and then turned out not to have P L insurance, cost £100k apparently.
The message here is stop sulking and get on with some work.
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That is just one type of business model and if you have ever complained about the outsourced customer service model to india and alike then there is so much wrong with the message of your response. Call centres is a better metaphor than the Tesco example. Companies cut costs and move centre to India. Customers suffer and ultimately the brand of the company suffers and loses customers because of it. Some bright innovative companies will then move the call centres back to the UK and market themselves as having a native speaking call centre. This increased level of service quality is leads to more customers. Now you can say it is moaning all you can say it is fighting for the business and trying to halt an outsoucing model that is detrimental to the company, and to the customer. The only person who benefits is the guy that is measured on cost reduction. I would rather fight for what is right for you and the customer rather than giving in. And the fact the moderators are the nationals, I would be careful what you say . They could be coming to an area near you very soon
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The analogy of call centre doesn't really fit for me. I think a better one is the rise and rise supermarkets.
When I was boy there were lots of little shops butchers bakers etc but not anymore Im definitely not saying its a change for the better but is a fact. There is a place for smaller shops but not in the same way as before.
The wc market has changed, one day it might change back but all the while shops are suffering and the big shop chains are answerable mainly to shareholders then it won't change.
You want to fight the nationals, I wish you luck but personally I'll be modifying my business model instead.
I still provide high quality work at higher prices for the customers who want it and a flick and a promise for those who want boxes ticking on forms.