Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: 4S Cleaning on July 27, 2012, 11:08:55 pm
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I have heard a couple of times that using ladders for anything will be banned under health and saftey ...is this true ?
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Yes If you interpret that way, of course not.
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Yes If you interpret that way, of course not.
You have lost me, right in the near future (2years) will we still be able to use ladders to clean upstairs houses ?
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I have heard a couple of times that using ladders for anything will be banned under health and saftey ...is this true ?
No, it's not true......you've heard it more than a couple of times.
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Yes If you interpret that way, of course not.
You have lost me, right in the near future (2years) will we still be able to use ladders to clean upstairs houses ?
Yes.......but you'll find they are unwieldy and could scratch the glass......a bit like a wfp, really ;D.
I'm only joking. I don't know but someone will be able to help you out.
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Yes If you interpret that way, of course not.
You have lost me, right in the near future (2years) will we still be able to use ladders to clean upstairs houses ?
Yes.......but you'll find they are unwieldy and could scratch the glass......a bit like a wfp, really ;D. I'm only joking. I don't know but someone will be able to help you out.
I love a p take the same as the next person, but I always find it's better if you know the person ...thanks for your non help
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ladder firms will be still churning out ladders for many decades yet. i predict a slow growth in the home market with exports increasing by bulk freighter to Asia
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Mate its simple, ladders are and will not be banned. However they are and will be more restricted in the future.
If your a new start up, do a Health and safety course. Ladders on commercial (The Majority) are a no no, as they dont conform to the company's own health and safety policy and government guide lines.
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Thankyou, I am a new start up , but have been fitting windows for 25 years so I am well used to ladders , I am buying 3 traditional runs & was a bit worried I would be unable too use ladders in the near future, thank you for your help.
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Wanna fit some windows for me lol
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Ladder use is ALREADY restricted under 2005 WAHR. This is LAW, not a recommendation or regulation - LAW.
The Law states:
Avoidance of risks from work at height.
98. Taking account of the general principles of prevention in Schedule 3 to the Act, an employer
shall—
(a) ensure that work is not carried out at height where it is reasonably practicable to carry out the work safely and without risk to health otherwise than at height,
(b) without prejudice to the generality of paragraph (a), ensure that work is not carried
out at height unless it is reasonably practicable to do so safely and without risk to
health,
(c) where, having regard to paragraphs (a) and (b), it is necessary to carry out work at
height, take suitable and sufficient measures to prevent an employee falling a
distance liable to cause personal injury, including—
(i) ensuring that the work is carried out—
(I) from an existing place of work, or
(II) in the case of obtaining access or egress, by using an existing means of
access or egress,
in compliance with this Part, where it is practicable to do so safely and under
appropriate ergonomic conditions, and
(ii) where it is not practicable for the work to be carried out in accordance with
subparagraph (i), ensuring that suitable and sufficient work equipment, in
compliance with Regulation 100, is provided to prevent a fall occurring,
(d) where the measures taken under paragraph (c) do not eliminate the risk of a fall
occurring—
(i) provide sufficient work equipment, in compliance with Regulation 100, to
minimise the distance of a potential fall and the risk of personal injury, and
(ii) without prejudice to the generality of paragraph (c), provide such additional
training and instruction or take other additional suitable and sufficient
measures to prevent, so far as is practicable, any employee falling a distance
liable to cause personal injury.
The bit in bold is the important bit - basically you shouldn't use ladders if there is another practicable method that will do the job from the ground. If you do, you are breaking the law. If you have any kind of insurance, look at the small print where it says that you are not covered when conducting activities outside the law....
Sky installers, painters etc etc have no practicable alternative method to carry out their job,.. window cleaners do, which is why this law is referred to so often on here.
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I think this thread has seen some very well thought out and correctly written answers,
idealrob
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Yes If you interpret that way, of course not.
You have lost me, right in the near future (2years) will we still be able to use ladders to clean upstairs houses ?
Yes.......but you'll find they are unwieldy and could scratch the glass......a bit like a wfp, really ;D. I'm only joking. I don't know but someone will be able to help you out.
I love a p take the same as the next person, but I always find it's better if you know the person ...thanks for your non help
I apologise for my "non help"; I was in a silly mood last night.
It shouldn't be too difficult to find out what you need to know. Asking on here could just get you opinions and not facts, as you found out :D.
Good luck with the new business(es), anyway.
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The bit in bold is the important bit - basically you shouldn't use ladders if there is another practicable method that will do the job from the ground. If you do, you are breaking the law. If you have any kind of insurance, look at the small print where it says that you are not covered when conducting activities outside the law....
Sky installers, painters etc etc have no practicable alternative method to carry out their job,.. window cleaners do, which is why this law is referred to so often on here.
I went on a course in 2009 or 2010 as I was then working on behalf of a company and the company requirements were I go on this course even though I wouldn't be using ladders.
I did ask the question about are ladders legal for window cleaning private houses.
A window cleaner can use a ladder quite legally if he decides that is the best method to do the job but he does has to have with him an alternative even if it's just an extendible pole. The idea is for every job he does he decides which way of working is best to get the results expected.
A window cleaner is breaking the law if he only has ladders for cleaning windows above standing height which is where I think the confusion comes in. He's supposed to have a minimum of two methods of cleaning windows at height available even if the second is just an extendible pole to put a mop and squeegee on.
The rules about ladder height and making sure it's stable and safe to use, etc, also apply but it is definitely legal to use a ladder.
Obviously the best and safest method is wfp but even then, if he decides a ladder is best in terms of expected results then it's still legal to use it.
Also, the term 'short duration' when applied to ladders is up to 20 minutes.
Workplace rules may be different but only in so far as they exceed statutory rules.
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Even if they are banned, the law would be impossible to enforce so I wouldn't worry about. I'd still use ladders regardless of what the H&S gestapo says.
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Even if they are banned, the law would be impossible to enforce so I wouldn't worry about. I'd still use ladders regardless of what the H&S gestapo says.
Contrary to gutter press miss quoting and hyping things up untill the truth is so far in the distance that it can no longer be seen, the H&S 'Gestapo' are more about managing risk sensibly than just banning things outright.
The WAHD originally came about not because deaths and injuries from falls at height were on the decrease but because they were on the increase.
There will always be work that requires short duration use of ladders so it makes much more sense to manage the risk and reduce the trend of increasing numbers of injuries and death than to ignore the problem.
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Also, the term 'short duration' when applied to ladders is up to 20 minutes.
You sure about this, or is this someone's interpretation of 'short duration'?
And the principles that underpin in the WAHD regulations are that if it is reasonably practical to do a job from the ground, then that's how it should be done.
(a) ensure that work is not carried out at height where it is reasonably practicable to carry out the work safely and without risk to health otherwise than at height,
Common sense really.
Nathanial Jones pointed this out in his cut 'n' paste of the actual regs.
In my experience, most windows can be cleaned from the ground. I have some flat roofs where ladders are needed to get access and there's probably many other examples where access equipment (such as ladders) is needed, but for most windows, WFP is reasonably practical.
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Short duration is considered less than 20 minutes but should a job be expected to take 10 minutes but ends up taking 30 minutes, then that is also acceptable unless the same situation arises frequently.
I've found the notes I took at the time and this 2 day course was 100% H & S approved and the bloke was reading from the manual. The other problem is much of the WAHL are sometimes a bit contradictory and I was told to be wary of accepting just a few lines as positive proof that this or that is, or isn't, allowed.
98. Taking account of the general principles of prevention in Schedule 3 to the Act, an employer
shall—
That says 'employer'. The question I asked was about a self employed one one band cleaning windows of private houses although the regs do state by 'employer' it means the self employed, but regardless, using a ladder is legal. The term 'reasonably practicable' is also open to interpretation. Those regs also seem to be applying to the use of ladders in general but not specifically to short duration use.
A window cleaner is by dint of the term, expected to leave windows clean and if he decides that in order to do that he needs to use a ladder and clean the windows trad style, then it is legal.
It's about assessing the risks, minimising those risks, acting within the regs, and where possible and practicable, using a safer method. The regs do not state 'do not use ladders ever' otherwise as far as window cleaning is concerned, it would state clearly 'ladders are banned for window cleaning'.
I use wfp because apart from it being more profitable, I consider it safer but regardless of that, there is no law or rule stating that wfp must be used at all times and I defy anyone to find it.
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Is it not like all other lws? Ie if you don't fall off no one either cares nor needs to know.
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Is it not like all other laws? Ie if you don't fall off no one either cares nor needs to know.
That's the bottom line. ;D
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Short duration is considered less than 20 minutes but should a job be expected to take 10 minutes but ends up taking 30 minutes, then that is also acceptable unless the same situation arises frequently.
I've found the notes I took at the time and this 2 day course was 100% H & S approved and the bloke was reading from the manual. The other problem is much of the WAHL are sometimes a bit contradictory and I was told to be wary of accepting just a few lines as positive proof that this or that is, or isn't, allowed.
98. Taking account of the general principles of prevention in Schedule 3 to the Act, an employer
shall—
That says 'employer'. The question I asked was about a self employed one one band cleaning windows of private houses although the regs do state by 'employer' it means the self employed, but regardless, using a ladder is legal. The term 'reasonably practicable' is also open to interpretation. Those regs also seem to be applying to the use of ladders in general but not specifically to short duration use.
A window cleaner is by dint of the term, expected to leave windows clean and if he decides that in order to do that he needs to use a ladder and clean the windows trad style, then it is legal.
It's about assessing the risks, minimising those risks, acting within the regs, and where possible and practicable, using a safer method. The regs do not state 'do not use ladders ever' otherwise as far as window cleaning is concerned, it would state clearly 'ladders are banned for window cleaning'.
I use wfp because apart from it being more profitable, I consider it safer but regardless of that, there is no law or rule stating that wfp must be used at all times and I defy anyone to find it.
Still, if it's reasonably practical to clean the windows from the ground:
(a) ensure that work is not carried out at height where it is reasonably practicable to carry out the work safely and without risk to health otherwise than at height,
So sure, builder's cleans can't be cleaned by WFP; you've often got to get your nose and scraper to the glass; plastic needs to be pulled off 'n' stuff.
But for most routine window cleaning jobs, WFP is REASONABLY PRACTICAL.
So, it doesn't really matter about the 'short duration of task'; that's irrelevant - the principle of the WAHD is that if a job can be done from the ground (reasonably practical), then that is how it should be done. And if it can't be done reasonably practically from the ground then other means of access (such as ladders) can be used. And then another set of instructions (how to use the ladders) comes into play.
The rules effectively mean that ladders should not be used as the first means of access for routine window cleaning tasks.
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The bit in bold is the important bit - basically you shouldn't use ladders if there is another practicable method that will do the job from the ground. If you do, you are breaking the law. If you have any kind of insurance, look at the small print where it says that you are not covered when conducting activities outside the law....
Sky installers, painters etc etc have no practicable alternative method to carry out their job,.. window cleaners do, which is why this law is referred to so often on here.
A window cleaner can use a ladder quite legally if he decides that is the best method to do the job but he does has to have with him an alternative even if it's just an extendible pole. The idea is for every job he does he decides which way of working is best to get the results expected.
I think you're wrong.
Each window cleaner makes a decision based on each job individually - but the decision to use ladders should only be made if it is not reasonably practicable to use an alternative method, like the extendible pole or WFP.
If you go around "deciding" to use ladders regardless of practicable alternatives that remove the need for work at height, & then have a fall - good luck explaining in court why you felt justified in your decision to ignore the practicable alternatives.
Also - I've been told that the mention of "employer" if questioned in court would simply come to mean "the person in charge of making this decision" and as such these rules apply to self employed sole traders just as much as anyone else.
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I was going by the notes I wrote down at the time.
It's not about deciding to use ladders as the first choice every time because then that is the same as using ladders everytime regardless.
If the person gets to the job and decides using an extendible pole (or wfp) won't give the standard of cleaning required, then he can use ladders provided it's in accordance with the regs.
Also, 'short duration'. I've now found in one place I've got written '20 minutes is considered short duration' and in another I've written 'up to 30 minutes'.
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Short duration applies if its a once off - - but if you're cleaning windows all day, every day, off ladders - although each job may be less than 20 mins, it can no longer be considered "short duration".
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Window cleaning is classed as short duration whereas painting generally isn't. It's the amount of time spent up the ladder in one place to do the work that the ladder was put there for (i.e. one or maybe two windows) and not the total time taken up a ladder to do the whole house.
The point I'm making is not whether ladders are the safest way to clean windows but rather that ladders can be used to clean windows provided it's done in accordance with the WAHL's.
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The point I'm making is not whether ladders are the safest way to clean windows but rather that ladders can be used to clean windows provided it's done in accordance with the WAHL's.
So how do you explain this then?
(a) ensure that work is not carried out at height where it is reasonably practicable to carry out the work safely and without risk to health otherwise than at height,
It seems to allow for non-routine window cleaning; flat roofs or builder's cleans for example, where you need a ladder, but it seems to rule out the majority of 'normal' windows that can be easily accessed with a WFP.
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Whether ladders are banned or not, just forget about ladders. The sooner you do, the better. WFP is the standard, it's fast, easy, efficient. People who say it isn't are not doing it right. Speak to the right people with the right experience. Using ladders is an incredibly slow, cumbersome and inefficient way of cleaning windows. I only use them for access. If you are serious about your business start investing in the future.
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I've also done the safety courses and my take on it is really simple- "ladders can be used for short durations if safe to do so" It is very rare to be up a ladder for more than a few minutes when cleaning windows, so if the surface is secure, the ladder is maintained and you keep your three points of contact, you should be ok.
When I did the IPAF license, the instructor said that a short duration is around twenty minutes. However, if the worker came down the ladder onto the ground and then climbed back up the ladder, that is a new job. So you could theoretically, work for hours up a ladder without breaking the working at height reg's as long as you came down every twenty minutes.
Also, if you were working on a job and it was wfp, but there were a few windows where for whatever reason, wfp couldn't be used, a ladder could be used if more practical.
The guys on here who have said that the homeowners can be sued if a wc fell off a ladder while working on their house are incorrect. It is the wc who does the risk assessment, and the wc who decides what method to use. The homeowner could only be sued if they provided a faulty ladder for the wc to use.
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The point I'm making is not whether ladders are the safest way to clean windows but rather that ladders can be used to clean windows provided it's done in accordance with the WAHL's.
So how do you explain this then?
(a) ensure that work is not carried out at height where it is reasonably practicable to carry out the work safely and without risk to health otherwise than at height,
It seems to allow for non-routine window cleaning; flat roofs or builder's cleans for example, where you need a ladder, but it seems to rule out the majority of 'normal' windows that can be easily accessed with a WFP.
Tosh
I did write that it is never advisable to just go by one line of a text. The problem of just one line is that the context of the entire regulation is lost no matter how definitive the wording of that sentence or paragraph may appear.
I found this on the H & S website. It is about the safe use of ladders for window cleaning. It does advise to use other methods if possible but no where does it state ladders are not to be used. It says clearly ladders can be used provided they are used safely.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/misc613.pdf
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I luv this subject your all mad it must be illegal to sell ladders then after all according to many of you it is against the LAW to use them. xxck window cleaning i am now gonna join the ladder police oh yeah your nicked.
alan
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The point I'm making is not whether ladders are the safest way to clean windows but rather that ladders can be used to clean windows provided it's done in accordance with the WAHL's.
So how do you explain this then?
(a) ensure that work is not carried out at height where it is reasonably practicable to carry out the work safely and without risk to health otherwise than at height,
It seems to allow for non-routine window cleaning; flat roofs or builder's cleans for example, where you need a ladder, but it seems to rule out the majority of 'normal' windows that can be easily accessed with a WFP.
Tosh
I did write that it is never advisable to just go by one line of a text. The problem of just one line is that the context of the entire regulation is lost no matter how definitive the wording of that sentence or paragraph may appear.
I found this on the H & S website. It is about the safe use of ladders for window cleaning. It does advise to use other methods if possible but no where does it state ladders are not to be used. It says clearly ladders can be used provided they are used safely.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/misc613.pdf
Ross, that is superseded by WAHD 2005; it's a really old document that well pre-dates WAHD 2005.
And that one line is the definitive; it's common sense; it's in black 'n' white.
(a) ensure that work is not carried out at height where it is reasonably practicable to carry out the work safely and without risk to health otherwise than at height,
That means if it's safer to do the job from the ground and reasonably practical to do so, then that's how it should be done. If it can't be done that way, then other means of access can be used (such as ladders/cherry pickers/scafolding/etc).
It's common sense.
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I luv this subject your all mad it must be illegal to sell ladders then after all according to many of you it is against the LAW to use them. xxck window cleaning i am now gonna join the ladder police oh yeah your nicked.
alan
Don't be daft, Alan - your strawman is not the best; no-one says that ladders are illegal. What the WAHD says is that any working at height is RESTRICTED. Ladders therefore are not illegal, but their use is governed by the regulations contained in WAH Directive.
Can the job be done from the ground and is it reasonably practical to do so? If yes then the job should be done from the ground. If no, then ladders may be used; but even then the way they should be used with a ladder stabilisation device, etc (I think they need to be tied off too; not sure though without going through the regs) makes using them in the 'correct manner' (according to the WAHD) uneconomical (i.e. slow).
And I'm not 'anti ladder', I'm just saying what the WAHD sets out. Anyone can work anyway they want as far as I'm concerned.
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Tosh
I did write that it is never advisable to just go by one line of a text. The problem of just one line is that the context of the entire regulation is lost no matter how definitive the wording of that sentence or paragraph may appear.
Ross, that is superseded by WAHD 2005; it's a really old document that well pre-dates WAHD 2005.
And that one line is the definitive; it's common sense; it's in black 'n' white.
(a) ensure that work is not carried out at height where it is reasonably practicable to carry out the work safely and without risk to health otherwise than at height,
That means if it's safer to do the job from the ground and reasonably practical to do so, then that's how it should be done. If it can't be done that way, then other means of access can be used (such as ladders/cherry pickers/scafolding/etc).
It's common sense.
It's on the H & S website as a current leaflet and is the same one I was given on the course I was on.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/cleaning/guidance.htm
Scroll about two thirds down the page.
The leaflet was issued in Oct 2003. As I understood it at the time, the working at height stuff was first of all a 'directive' (WAHD) which then became law in 2005 (WAHL) and basically the directive was to give industry time to get used to the new rules before they became law.
It doesn't mean the directives were changed when they became law.
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Rossy, it's still superseded; the WAHD is the definitive document for working at height.
Try reading the thing:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/735/regulation/1/made
There are no 'loop holes'. You don't think it's going to be introduced just so people can carry on working as they did before? If so, there'd be little or no point.
And really, it's simple common sense. Can the job be done safely from the ground and is it reasonably practical to do so? If yes, then that's how it should be done. If no, then other means of access can be considered. Section 6 covers the use of ladders in this instance.
Read it!
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And if ladders are to be used, because the job cannot be done from the ground, look how they say they should be used:
5. A portable ladder shall be prevented from slipping during use by—
(a)securing the stiles at or near their upper or lower ends;
(b)an effective anti-slip or other effective stability device; or
(c)any other arrangement of equivalent effectiveness.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/735/schedule/6/made?view=plain
You will also notice that there are no exemptions given to window cleaners within the rules, nor does it refer to that guidance document you put up; this is legislation, not guidance (even if it is outdated).
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I didn't write there were loop holes and neither did I write people could carry on working as they did before.
Before new H & S rules are introduced, and enforced, they start off as a directive which is a compulsion to comply. This is to get industry familiar with the changes and give them a chance to change methods of work. Then, at some point, they become law.
The legislation you gave a link to is not the detail. The H & S give the information on the detail which is clearly given on their website and is the link I gave earlier to the leaflet the H & S currently hand out to window cleaners if asked for.
What you are saying is the the H & S Executive are giving out wrong information.
If you required information about what methods of work are legal and safe in terms of window cleaning, who do you ask, the government department who produce legislation or the H & S people who have the expertise to give advice?
Most ask the H & S or look on their website which is what I did.
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Ross,
Then explain this piece of legislation (not advice):
(a) ensure that work is not carried out at height where it is reasonably practicable to carry out the work safely and without risk to health otherwise than at height,
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The ladder police came round earlier wanting to impound my ladders. I said take the ladders, they are ancient but you're not taking my new ladder attachment.
There was a stand-off.......
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Ross,
Then explain this piece of legislation (not advice):
(a) ensure that work is not carried out at height where it is reasonably practicable to carry out the work safely and without risk to health otherwise than at height,
Dear Toshimoto,
I will phone up the H & S people tomorrow and if possible, get suitable info and leaflets sent to me.
Will you accept that as a full and final settlement.
Yours Sincerely
Frustrated of Brighton.
...................................
Griff............ Go back to watching the Olympics. P-l-e-a-s-e. ;D
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Ross,
Then explain this piece of legislation (not advice):
(a) ensure that work is not carried out at height where it is reasonably practicable to carry out the work safely and without risk to health otherwise than at height,
Dear Toshimoto,
I will phone up the H & S people tomorrow and if possible, get suitable info and leaflets sent to me.
Will you accept that as a full and final settlement.
Yours Sincerely
Frustrated of Brighton.
...................................
Griff............ Go back to watching the Olympics. P-l-e-a-s-e. ;D
You don't have too, mate; all you need to do is read and comprehend the rules. They're not that complex really.
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I know of two cases of people being nicked for using ladders. The first case was painters using ladders to paint some flats in Sheepcote Rd in Harrow.
The second case was some blokes renewing fasias on a house in South Oxhey.
Interestingly both were some time ago and I haven't heard of any since.
You can still use ladders but there is no reason to these days. If you do anything enough times something bad will happen eventually. There is always that difficult stretch on a windy day
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The ladder police came round earlier wanting to impound my ladders. I said take the ladders, they are ancient but you're not taking my new ladder attachment.
There was a stand-off.......
They should have RUNG you first.
I'll get my coat
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The ladder police came round earlier wanting to impound my ladders. I said take the ladders, they are ancient but you're not taking my new ladder attachment.
There was a stand-off.......
They should have RUNG you first.
I'll get my coat
;D
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The ladder police came round earlier wanting to impound my ladders. I said take the ladders, they are ancient but you're not taking my new ladder attachment.
There was a stand-off.......
They should have RUNG you first.
I'll get my coat
I like your "STILE" ;D ;D
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Ross,
Then explain this piece of legislation (not advice):
(a) ensure that work is not carried out at height where it is reasonably practicable to carry out the work safely and without risk to health otherwise than at height,
I said I'd phone up the H & S and I did. I wished I hadn't.
Eventually, after being given loads of different numbers to phone by the Health and Safety people over the last 2 days, I spoke to someone who just referred me to the information on the H & S website. He claimed to be a 'working at heights' expert but refused to get drawn as to whether it's ok to use a ladder when you have a wfp system in the van that could do the job more safely but then also refused to say you couldn't.
He kept repeating that each window cleaner must make a judgement based on the preferred method of work for the job being done taking into account the risk and reducing those risks to a minimum and if that means a pole system is best, then that is what should be used. I kept saying that means there is no choice and he kept saying there is.
I sort of ended up in a bit of an argument because to my mind, it's either you can chose to use a ladder or you can't. So I'm none the wiser.
..........................................................
About legislation as opposed to the WAHL's.
One thing he did say though that it is best to never go by legislation as I'd need a barrister who specialises in health and safety legislation to get a valid interpretation. The only time legislation is used in a court of law is when during a court case, someone for the defence or prosecution wants to set a precedence. Legislation is what gets passed by the government.
Anyway, the bloke then dismissed anything to do with legislation and said that health and safety rules and laws is what he deals with and not legislation.
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He kept repeating that each window cleaner must make a judgement based on the preferred method of work for the job being done taking into account the risk and reducing those risks to a minimum and if that means a pole system is best, then that is what should be used.
That is what the rules say! You reduce the risks to a minimum by not working at height when you can do the job from the ground, when it is reasonably practical to do so. If you must work at height because a window cannot be cleaned from the ground - for example above a large flat roof - then access equipment (such as ladders) can be used.
It's common sense.
I kept saying that means there is no choice and he kept saying there is.
Maybe you should've asked a clearer question? What do you mean exactly by 'there is no choice?'.
Are you saying that there is no choice to use ladders ever? Or are you saying there's no choice to use a ladder when a WFP would do the job?
The first instance would be 'There is a choice', and the second would be 'No, there's no choice, it should be cleaned from the ground.'
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In truth Tosh, if the bloke had said that wfp must be used always, I would have held my hands up and said I'd read the info on the H & S site wrong.
The phone call lasted about 30 minutes. I took short hand notes on the replies and I asked very clear well defined questions as I'd written them down before hand and I've a lot of experience in doing that type of thing in the past.
The bloke (his name was by coincidence Simon Cowell) would not answer or say that a ladder can or can not be used if I have wfp sitting in the van but then he said I must make an informed choice taking into account the job being done and too reduce the risks by choosing the safest option.
I kept saying that wfp is then the safest option everytime and he kept saying that I must decide that at each job, etc etc etc.
His answers were ambiguous. I've read through my notes and he does not say one thing or the other.
I cannot understand that if I must use wfp every time when possible, why he just did not say that. I ended up getting a bit narked and frustrated at the politician type answers.
I quoted the reference number of the leaflet about use of portable ladders for window cleaning and he said I should use that as guidance as even though it was published in 2003, the information is current. I said it implies I can use ladders all the time and he said that at each job........... and the same going round in circles type discussion then took place as had done before.
My conclusion is that I have no conclusive information, based on that phone call, on which to say one thing or the other as to what the rules are for using ladders or not.
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I guess he won't give a straight answer 'cos he doesn't want to be held accountable, but the directive seems clear enough to me. I've read it closely and debated it with Phil Hanson - from the point of view of a ladder user (I was at the time) - and feel I have a good understanding of it.
It really does seem like common sense. And the legislation doesn't hinge on the fact that if you don't have the equipment you can use a ladder, it hinges on the 'if you don't need to work at height, you shouldn't if it's reasonably practical to work from the ground'. It then goes on to explain, if you must work at height (because it's not reasonably practical to work from the ground) how equipment should be used. From memory it's schedule six that covers ladders. From memory both top and bottom of the ladders have to be secured.
When I use a ladder, I don't secure top or bottom; I just use them. Sometimes if I think it looks dodgy, I'll use a rojak ladder stopper.
So it's not like I adhere to the rules, but we're not discussing that, we're discussing what the rules actually mean.
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Yes, common sense screams at me that if I have wfp then why use ladders to keep a customer happy.
The question is that according the the H & S leaflet, it states that ladders are a valid choice when deciding on how to do a job and that is what was said on the course I went on 2 or 3 years ago.
I remember those discussion years ago with Phil Hanson but you must take into account that he was promoting Ionics wfp stuff.
I will persist with this as now I want a definitive answer. Can I choose to use a ladder when I could use wfp, or can't I? Also, are ladders legal, yes or no, or does it depend on what other options you have like just an extendible pole on which to put a mop and squeegee.
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i personally use WFP most of the time although i use a trad pole and ladders if the job requires it.i have a few domestic jobs today where i need the ladders to go up and over the flat roof garage in order to clean the backs.3 houses interlinked with each other so i hop over each fence while im round the back!(luckily i dont have many of these jobs left!).i take my hose and pole over as well.
i also have another job today that requires me to stand on a flat roof to clean a landing window.as its a front only job i use ladders for the other 2 upper windows at the front as its easier.
most days i dont even take the ladders off and when i do its usually only to hop over or unlock a side gate.i also have some large domestics where they have large flat roof extensions and the only way is to get up there is with a ladder.one property requires me to clean their big skylight windows on flat roof extension so my trad pole is the best way of cleaning em.
i have some old cottages on a canal bank that i clean and its very awkward to get my van down there.their windows are old wooden windows mostly so i access their properties from another customers garden that leads onto the canal bank.i just take my trad pole with vice versa and trad gear and bottle on a belt and it does the job safely from the ground.
its left up to the discretion of the window cleaner depending on the job! ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
regards
dazmond
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see, i said much of this re the guy who fell off a step ladder against a brick arch and hurt his shoulder . Alan just because he had wfp makes no difference
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Yes, common sense screams at me that if I have wfp then why use ladders to keep a customer happy.
You know, one of the indicators of being self-employed is that we decide how best to do a job. A few years back we had a new combi boiler and 10 radiators fitted. Apart from letting the plumber know where we wanted the items placed - within the considerations and restraints he provided - we let him get on with the job as best as he saw fit. I didn't tell him how to do his job.
I don't let my customers tell me how to do my job either.
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You know, one of the indicators of being self-employed is that we decide how best to do a job. A few years back we had a new combi boiler and 10 radiators fitted. Apart from letting the plumber know where we wanted the items placed - within the considerations and restraints he provided - we let him get on with the job as best as he saw fit. I didn't tell him how to do his job.
I don't let my customers tell me how to do my job either.
The whole reason I picked up on this topic was a customer wasn't happy with her windows being done wfp. She had no complaint what so ever with my window cleaning and admitted she'd never seen the frames so clean either but it's more that she prefers to see a man up a ladder cleaning the windows. It's what I'd call an unreasonable prejudice.
After me saying about accidents and all that she still decided to try and see if she could find a w/c to do the job trad style.
This got me wondering about whether according the WAHL's, I could have used a ladder legally. As I use wfp, the question for me is academic as I won't use a ladder for anything other than access.
Next Monday I have a job cleaning out a customers gutters and for that I will be using a ladder. I know don't know how the WAHL's apply to that. I will be using a stand off and someone will be footing the ladder but I have no alternative means to do the job so will I be breaking the law?
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Ladders are not banned ;D
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Ladders are not banned ;D
I didn't know that. ;D
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Ladders are not banned ;D
I didn't know that. ;D
Who said they were banned?
Their use for routine window cleaning is severely restricted though; well, if you were to follow the regulation that is.
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Who said they were banned?
Their use for routine window cleaning is severely restricted though; well, if you were to follow the regulation that is.
I'm not so sure about that ladders are severely restricted for window cleaning. I've started looking at things from the opposite angle and I cannot find one single example or incident of the H & S doing a window cleaner for using a ladder under 9m.
I found lots of instances of painters, builders, etc, getting in trouble for extended use of a ladder but not a single window cleaner.
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I found lots of instances of painters, builders, etc, getting in trouble for extended use of a ladder but not a single window cleaner.
Maybe we're not worth it? :'(
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Maybe we're not worth it? :'(
Maybe that's it, after all, window cleaners are the bottom rung of the ladder.
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in my town is a big respectable painter firm and all their vans have triple ladders on them,looks like they use them a lot judging by the paint splashes on them.
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in my town is a big respectable painter firm and all their vans have triple ladders on them,looks like they use them a lot judging by the paint splashes on them.
Could be were they spilt the paint on the way down !! ;D ;D
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in my town is a big respectable painter firm and all their vans have triple ladders on them,looks like they use them a lot judging by the paint splashes on them.
Painters have no practicable alternative to ladders - window cleaners do! That's the whole basis of this law, NOT banning ladders completely, but banning their use when there is an alternative,.. you're allowed to use ladders if there is no practicable alternative, but where one exists you are breaking the law if you use ladders.
Its up to the individual to decide what is "practicable", but if there is an accident you may need to defend your decision in court,... access issues, wfp costs etc are all real factors in this & if there ever was an accident where a newbie cleaner who's been in the business only 6 months ended up in court over ladder use, I'm confident the "I couldn't afford WFP" excuse would be valid. If you're in the business years then I doubt the same argument would carry much weight.
The law is clear - read back a few pages where I quoted the actual text - & I have heard of companies being prosecuted for ladder use after avoidable accidents/injuries occurred.
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Ive always thought that painters should use tower scaffolding when painting, but i rarely see them using this method.