Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Marcus McDonnell on April 21, 2012, 09:55:52 am
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Buying a new machine but trying to keep cost down is the inline heater a must or can u get away without it
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Well... the simple answer is no, however this really depends on the chemicals you use for pre spraying.
If you choose a chemical which does not rely on hot water to increase its cleaning efficiency something like SPM from Solution, Cornwall will work just fine.
Saying that, if you are cleaning lots of filthy greasy restaurant carpets then hot water will help when rinsing.
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well.the simple answer is yes, No matter what bulls**t they tell you ,heat will improve the procces .
....... there are how ever a number of products available that claim do not need heat , available form a number of differnt suppliers .
Geoff
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I have an inline heater and haven't used it years. ::)
I do a lot of "end of tenancy work" and I get very good results without heat.
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Try some proper heat Elfin , and you might get some excellent results ;)
Heat will always give you the advantage , no question about it , I am not saying you cannot clean with out heat, the point i am trying to make is heat is an advantage what is the point in manufactures making machines with heat? what is the point in making inline heaters ? and why am i wasting money turning my burner on ?
Geoff
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Wet cleaning of carpet is classed as HOT WATER EXTRACTION i cleaned a restaurant carpet recently and without heat i had no chance of removing the soil. you will get away without heat most of the time but with heat you will get better results every time
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Three parts to cleaning, Heat, Agitation, and Chemicals, of you use less of one, you need more of the other. So microsplitters work on the principle that the chemical is good enough not to need heat. I sometimes use microsplitters, but for resuraunts I use a hot enzyme, and the machine heater (portable), boosted with Magma heater.
Most portys have some sort of heater, you can fill the tank first, let it heat up while you move furniture, prespray agitate, let it dwell etc. Then upgrade over time.
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Geoff, you are wasting your money when you turn on your burner without a doubt.
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The heater on my machine has not worked for years.
I only use microsplitters and rinse with cold water.
But then I do not do restaurants nowadays. Tap hot water will help with rinsing greasy carpets but is not essential--- as long as you use free rinsing micro splitting presprays. It is at that stage the breakdown of dirt is done. The rinse then removes the emulsified crud.
If you are using intank detergents like we used to, then a bit of heat helps.
Most people have moved on from that.
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
now i can save myself £15 per week , thanks Elfin
Geoff
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The heater on my machine has not worked for years. I only use microsplitters and rinse with cold water. But then I do not do restaurants nowadays. Tap hot water will help with rinsing greasy carpets but is not essential--- as long as you use free rinsing micro splitting presprays. It is at that stage the breakdown of dirt is done. The rinse then removes the emulsified crud. If you are using intank detergents like we used to, then a bit of heat helps. Most people have moved on from that. I,ve heard it all now ;D tap hot water on greasy carpets , exactly how hot is it when it hits the carpet , by the time its been sat in ur
rugdoctor ermm porty, and got to the wand !!! geoff
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Three parts to cleaning, Heat, Agitation, and Chemicals, of you use less of one, you need more of the other. So microsplitters work on the principle that the chemical is good enough not to need heat. I sometimes use microsplitters, but for resuraunts I use a hot enzyme, and the machine heater (portable), boosted with Magma heater.
Most portys have some sort of heater, you can fill the tank first, let it heat up while you move furniture, prespray agitate, let it dwell etc. Then upgrade over time.
Sorry richard there are 4 parts in the cleaning pie heat agitation chemical and time dwell time as you said yourself
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Just get a Truck Mount and stop elfyn around ;D
Sorry, couldn't resis that one.
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The heater on my machine has not worked for years.
I only use microsplitters and rinse with cold water.
But then I do not do restaurants nowadays. Tap hot water will help with rinsing greasy carpets but is not essential--- as long as you use free rinsing micro splitting presprays. It is at that stage the breakdown of dirt is done. The rinse then removes the emulsified crud.
If you are using intank detergents like we used to, then a bit of heat helps.
Most people have moved on from that.
How are prochem and chemspec managing these days
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Hi Guys
There are so many scientific reasons why hot water cleans better, most of which have been listed in previous posts.
Yes a heater is a major advantage, essential in some cases.
Cheers
Doug
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Ooops yeah Cleantech you are right!
I'll have to dig out my training manual and do a bit of re-reading :)
Richard
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Thanks for all your comments has been really helpful.
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If your doing mainly residential you can get away with it,you will be filling your machine with hot water generally speaking
its all in the presray and spotting,the machine only lifts out the soiling you dissolve?
gary
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The heater on my machine has not worked for years.
I only use microsplitters and rinse with cold water.
But then I do not do restaurants nowadays. Tap hot water will help with rinsing greasy carpets but is not essential--- as long as you use free rinsing micro splitting presprays. It is at that stage the breakdown of dirt is done. The rinse then removes the emulsified crud.
If you are using intank detergents like we used to, then a bit of heat helps.
Most people have moved on from that.
How are prochem and chemspec managing these days
Outselling micro splitter 10:1 in my shop.
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Heat, heat and more heat ;D
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I dont use heat, apart from the prespray. Derek Bolton told me heat was a waste of time and money, if anyone knows better than i will listen?!! ::)
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Can anyone describe the ' microsplitting ' constituents ? and specifically in relation to how its effective at cold water temperatures .
Is it referring to a specific constituents or has it become a generic term for a range of constituents and specific to carpet cleaning .
Is it referring to water softeners ? sodium carbonate , sodium phosphate , zeolites ?
or to synthetic surfactants or both perhaps ?
seems almost a UK carpet cleaning term , If you search ' microsplitters' on TMF , you only get one post mentioning it ever .... and from a Uk chap .
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As Doug has said there are scientific reasons why. In chemistry there are reactions that can only be achieved using heat that cannot be replicated with chemicals. There are always people that are going to deny that but how educated are these people?
There are carpet cleaners and carpet cleaners. I have seen the fantastic results that some people think that they get without it , but they have different perceptions than me.
If you think that good results are achievable without heat I would join cleantalk. I have on many occasions varied the heat on my machine and I do know differently to Derek Bolton, heat will give you better results, quicker and with less effort.
Peter
www.carpetcleanercardiff.com (http://www.carpetcleanercardiff.com)
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I was once told try washing up with cold water and you'll see heat makes a big difference. Fair point?
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When I turn on the heater on my LM machine I tend to get more dirt out! Weird or what :o Thought it was drying time. ??? ;D
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also using hot water dries much quicker :P
Dave
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Bold words there from Peter.
I'm a carpet cleaner 9or is that carpet cleaner?) with only 15 years experience. But to challenge the likes of Derek Bolton is folly.
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Why not though Elfyn?
With the utmost respect to the more senior members of our profession, they originate from the days where a single 2-stage vac and 50psi pump was the norm. Things change, boundaries are re-defined, new technology changes the playing field.
In their earlier years they were probably challenging the old guard from a previous generation as to what products/systems were the best. "shampooing" was the method du jour, whilst HWE was the ground-breaking method some decades ago. If it wasn't for progression and innovation we'd all still be riding around on a horse & cart, living in mud huts........
The heat argument is one that will rage on forever. Likewise the pre-vac argument.
We all do it differently, and I know what I prefer, so each to his own. Just because someone who's been cleaning carpets 30+ years says "oooh you shouldn't do that" doesn't mean they're right and you're wrong (and vice versa of course). It just means they don't think the same :)
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i like it hot
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So, back to Marcus' original question - toss a coin. ;D
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I would suggest quoting Derick to justify your uses of cold water is papering over the facts,as most of us who have met Derick do know he is infact an excellent teacher and very knowledgable guy, however i believe you will find Derick does have alliances with a paticular party ::)
Geoff.
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If heat is a waste of time and money then why do you use hot prespray? Whats the difference then
Seriously!
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The term 'microsplitter' was coined to try to describe the action of the cleaning solution. It has no scientific basis.
With microsplitters the actual dirt loosening is done in the prespray and agitation stages. The loose dirt removal is done at the rinse stage.
As the dirt is already loose a cold rinse works.
With detergent in the tank heat is needed to loosen the dirt as it is 'rinsed' out at the same time with no agitation, this also leaves a residue of detergent in the carpet.
The two cleaning solution types work in entirely different ways.
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.......... and cleaning with hot water improves the use of m/s ,
jees , i just cannot believe the arguments some c/c put up to verify just using cold water :o
Of course cold water users will argue the facts , they do have to try and justify the lack of heat in portys with no or inadequate heaters. ;)
quite simple really, !!!!
Geoff.
ps. i just going to clean my dishes in cold water to see exactly how well it works ;D
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Hi Guys
'Microsplitters' as well as detergents both work better with heat.
The idea that microsplitters have to be agitated and detergents do not originated from the marketing which was adopted when these sodium tripolyphosphate products were first pushed.
Many of the so called experts have very few, if any technical qualifications and are often closely associated with a particular supplier.
Cheers
Doug
p.s The word detergent comes from the latin word Tergere, to clean.
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I have just been reading a training manual by Jeff Cross on my Kindle
Jeff is a top International trainer and editor of Cleanfax.
He confirms as Geoff says you need hot water to clean dishes but also to clean Upholstery and Carpets.
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i think Jim summed it up the best. I use hot prespray as that was what i was told to do by an 'expert', i dont use hot water as i was also advised i dont need it. i am obviously no expert, just following the guidance of a course i paid to go on. After 2 years cleaning i have never used hot water, maybe i should give it a go and find out for myself!
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Why not though Elfyn?
With the utmost respect to the more senior members of our profession, they originate from the days where a single 2-stage vac and 50psi pump was the norm. Things change, boundaries are re-defined, new technology changes the playing field.
In their earlier years they were probably challenging the old guard from a previous generation as to what products/systems were the best. "shampooing" was the method du jour, whilst HWE was the ground-breaking method some decades ago. If it wasn't for progression and innovation we'd all still be riding around on a horse & cart, living in mud huts........
The heat argument is one that will rage on forever. Likewise the pre-vac argument.
We all do it differently, and I know what I prefer, so each to his own. Just because someone who's been cleaning carpets 30+ years says "oooh you shouldn't do that" doesn't mean they're right and you're wrong (and vice versa of course). It just means they don't think the same :)
Surely, by using the latest chemicals and the advantages of reducing the water temareture that go with them we are embracing new technology.
Geoff, I didn't raise Derek's name - I only tried to defend him.
I do have, as previously stated, an inline heater, I simply don't see the need for it. My example was for E.O.T. cleans - if there is hot water available at the tap, Ill use it.
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Surely, by using the latest chemicals and the advantages of reducing the water temperature that go with them we are embracing new technology.
I think the point some are trying to make is that there is no ' new technology ' in relation to products claiming to work at cold water or lower temperatures .
Its technology thats been around for decades and used in lots of cleaning products , carpet cleaning , laundry detergent etc . enabling products to clean better at lower temperatures , but not as good or better than the same product a higher temperature .
the only difference between these products and the newer ones you refer to is
.... marketing .
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I did not make it clear above that I use HOT PRESPRAY as this does have advantages.
After a dwell time with agitation there is no heat left in the carpet so I rinse with cold.
Why waste energy rinsing with hot when the cleaning work has already been done?
I think you will find that washing machines rinse with cold water and only use hot when they are using detergents in the main wash.
Microsplitters are not detergents.
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Elfrin
there are loads of people that have been in the industry a long time that are still useless carpet cleaners. Science has laws that cannot be rewritten. Any house wife with just a small amount of common sense understands that heavily soiled items need to be washed at temperature. Yes there are cool temperature powders on the market but they are not as effective. Even the washing powder industry which is a multi billion pound industry does not have chemists that can reverse scientific laws.
I myself cannot understand anybody that has been in this industry for any amount of time that is
unable to get to grips with this.
Peter
www.carpetcleanercardiff.com[/url]
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Hi Guys
A scientific law is always right, if you can prove it wrong then it is not a law.
It is not like economics for example where 'laws' are flexible and as such are not laws!
It worries me that people are paying to go on courses where they are basically given a marketing angle and not proper science.
Cheers
Doug
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As above - it hit home to me last week when I washed my terry cloths (covered in various soils from using for spotting). I put them on 40 degrees instead of the usual 30, and they came out like new - whereas normally they would be quite grey with various marks still on them.
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I prefer to work with hot water either by inline heater or my little Zeta, on some carpets when i extract with hot water (not warm) it seems to soften the fibres and allows the wand or hand tool to glide over the carpet better.
There are people who claim that extracting with hot water actually helps the carpets dry quicker.
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there are loads of people that have been in the industry a long time that are still useless carpet cleaners.
You talking about yourself again Pete?
;D ;D ;D
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Hi Guys
A scientific law is always right, if you can prove it wrong then it is not a law.
It is not like economics for example where 'laws' are flexible and as such are not laws!
It worries me that people are paying to go on courses where they are basically given a marketing angle and not proper science.
Cheers
Doug
Totally agree with that one! I think for carpets, you use as much heat as you can get away with depending on the fibre. New concepts most often, dont mean better!
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' Microsplitters' have become synonymous with the whole cold water cleaning thing ...
Does anyone have a link to a data sheet so we can see what its based on ? ..
several suppliers selling ' microsplitter ' products now ... but not one data sheet to download
perhaps the 'cleaning system Uk ' chap might oblige ?
Just curious , i suspect its mostly sodium tripolyphosphate as doug mentioned .... anyone ?
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New data sheets dont list ingredients.
Its STPP though.
Full marks to those importing, blending, bottling and marketing it. The cost of 100kg is really low including import from China.
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New data sheets dont list ingredients.
Its STPP though.
Full marks to those importing, blending, bottling and marketing it. The cost of 100kg is really low including import from China.
excellent , thats all i needed to know ...
so nobody has ' microsplitter ' as a trademark or whatever ..
wonder where the name originated from .. the UK im pretty sure anyway
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The first 'microsplitter' I can recall is One Step & One Step fine line. I believed it was a CFR product possibly developed to go with their recycling machine but a little research has turned up this http://onestep-europe.de/english/index.htm (http://onestep-europe.de/english/index.htm) I only recalled it because it was at the big cleaning show at the NEC years ago when the CFR pro was introduced to the UK. I have led a sheltered life ;D so others might know better but it seems it's a european concept.
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Hmm , That looks like it could well be the original source alright .
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Hi Guys
There was a dispute if I remeber correctly between One Step and Gunter's version.
Wild claims were made for the effectiveness of the STTP based products and a whole mythology grew up around it.
I have been trying to give a more balanced view for years and it has not always made me popular.
STTP is well worth having in your cleaning arsenal, I particularly like Pureclean on upholstery, but don't throw away your detergents either, they work very well too.
Cheers
doug
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I first used the one step in the late 90,s..It took a while to get used to that product as was using powders up to then in the clean tank..
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Elfrin
there are loads of people that have been in the industry a long time that are still useless carpet cleaners. Science has laws that cannot be rewritten. Any house wife with just a small amount of common sense understands that heavily soiled items need to be washed at temperature. Yes there are cool temperature powders on the market but they are not as effective. Even the washing powder industry which is a multi billion pound industry does not have chemists that can reverse scientific laws.
I myself cannot understand anybody that has been in this industry for any amount of time that is
unable to get to grips with this.
Peter
www.carpetcleanercardiff.com[/url]
Petter (is that how it's spelt?)
This is the second time that you've cast aspersions at me personally and at my abilities as a carpet cleaner. If you can't grasp the fact that there are alternatives to the way that you've worked for years, well that's your problem.
I'd also like to point out that I haven't needed to advertise for quite a few years and all my work is from personal recomendation. So, my customers, at least, are are please with the service I give.
It looks as if I'll be doing a job in Cardiff in a couple of weeks time. Why don't you come and see my work for yourself.
Additionally. The examples given of washing dishes and clothes apply only to the use of detergents. I agree, detergents need hot water. I DO NOT USE DETERGENTS.
Serveral posts suggest that I'm stuck in the past and carrying out the carpet cleaning equivalent of devil worshiping. Again, I would say that these people are the ones that are stuck in the past. WAKE UP AND SMELL THE FUTURE
The future, in my oppinion, is detergent free.
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I find that when I rinse my van after cleaning I get a better result with hot water.
So the same must apply to the rinse agent
I do not to be scientist to know this.
Go on a training course read a manual pass an exam all of which I have done.
Infact I cannot remember an exam questions which says cold water is best.
I think people who sell machines without an heating option are selling an incomplete product.
No doubt I will now receive emails from certain parties telling me I am speaking out of the top of my head and as a Moderator I should not make such post etc etc.
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Take cover ian ;D
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None of my post was aimed at you at all. I am not one of these idiots that has time to sprout on chapter and verse about things that I do not know about. I know nothing about you, where you are are based what equipment you use ore anything and could not give a flying f+++.
Why do you think there was any reference to you?
I do not have the time to become personal and childish myself. I do make a lot of spelling mistakes in a lot of my posts, I am ever so sorry that you have taken such offence. When you come down to Cardiff call over so I can put the teddy back in your cot.
Peter
www.carpetcleanercardiff.com (http://www.carpetcleanercardiff.com)
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I love it when the Taffs get all hot under the collar! There's nothing so entertaining as an angry Welshman ;D
Oops better watch my mouth, I'm going abroad to Wales in a week or so :D
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None of my post was aimed at you at all. I am not one of these idiots that has time to sprout on chapter and verse about things that I do not know about. I know nothing about you, where you are are based what equipment you use ore anything and could not give a flying f+++.
Why do you think there was any reference to you?
I do not have the time to become personal and childish myself. I do make a lot of spelling mistakes in a lot of my posts, I am ever so sorry that you have taken such offence. When you come down to Cardiff call over so I can put the teddy back in your cot.
Peter
If your comments weren't directed at me why did your post have my name on top (twice)?
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to put another spin on it cold water cleaning became very popular as porties got bigger eg triple vacs etc would it not be the case that many of the manufacturers embraced cold water cleaning so they could reduce the amount of power cables required.
just my opinion PS i love heat and my tm
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Hi Richard
Definitely a factor in the promotion of cold cleaning.
Cheers
doug
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I have actually cold water cleaned for a period in my business and although i still got good results as i uped the agitation stage . the biggest factor i found that caused me problems was my drying times am convinced that hot water cleaning means drying times are reduced
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Probably your equipment that hot water cleans has more suck than the kit you used with cold ;)
Even with a steaming hot TM rinse, the temperature of the carpet returns to ambient within a minute or so presuming a decent drying pass has been made... if it stays hot for any length of time, you have flooded it full of hot water and it'll take an age to dry anyway!
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Hi Guys
Hot water will evaporate faster, laws of physics again.
Although it will cool rapidly it will still have more energy that cold water and therefore a faster rate of evaporation.
Cheers
Doug
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Yes I agree on the heat and evaporation - like others say, just basic common sense.
Ideally to have any sort of leverage in a debate such as this you should really be accustomed to (and own) all methods in order to have a balanced outlook.
I've just completed my 21st month so I'm not dated with old styles of cleaning. I was taught most of what I know by the cleantalk forum and the promotion of cold water systems, namely colloids and splitters rinsed with plain cold water and a triple vac. I still have this system, BUT I also have a truckmount. With that I use all types of solutions allbeit mainly detergents.
What I do know though is whatever I'm rinsing out, MS or detergent I notice a marked improvement in results from the beginning of rinsing while the water is warming up to the end when its piping hot.
Hot water does a better job on anything with anything full stop, even without solutions or rinse aides you can clean with scalding hot water and I think for anyone to have a relevant opinion they should have ready access to all types of cleaning, not just one.
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to put another spin on it cold water cleaning became very popular as porties got bigger eg triple vacs etc would it not be the case that many of the manufacturers embraced cold water cleaning so they could reduce the amount of power cables required.
just my opinion PS i love heat and my truckmount
I know what you mean , but i wouldn't agree with the above as no machine had the amount of cables reduced , a triplevac would be a twin cord anyway . If you mean going without an inline heater , then perhaps , but i doubt it would concern any porty manufacturer . But i'd say MS was promoted on cleantalk in the scorpion era , and as it had no heat , perhaps thats where the cold water MS thing started .
Just looking through some posts on this forum ( searching microsplitting ) from 2004 up , ( some of you guys were arguing all this way back then ) some nice posts from doug countering the various claims made by the MS promoters . the whole cold water vs hot thing doesn't seem to feature much early on , seems it developed some time later ? and the original MS distributors were selling machines with heat in the beginning it seems .
The whole MS thing seemed to center mostly around a claim that ' detergents ' ( which would need to be defined ) cause resoiling . But offer no proof as to how significant , if at all , resoiling is . ::)
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Never mind all the science behind hot v cold, when you are working in an empty house with no heating and the outside temp is hovering around the zero mark you need a bit of warm water around you.
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So yes heat is a massive factor to doing a good job, scientific laws. Lots of peple with experience. Common sense. Welshmen with handbags at 20 paces. Who are the people to dispute the facts? ?
Peter
www.carpetcleanercardiff.com (http://www.carpetcleanercardiff.com)
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Was that an opology Peter?
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ugh me like hot steam!
at 1500psi and 150c not a lot resists the absolutely awesome effects of vapour steam
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbImnZ09IyM
dry in 30 mins
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or 80 sq meters of pub that look like this in 1 hour and dry in 2 ready for opening
http://www.flickr.com/photos/revitaclean/7120655863/in/photostream/lightbox/
show me the cold system that eats blacktop and dry in two hours? I buy it in a heartbeat as TM are not cheap.
P.s that a a Belgium wilton as well.