Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: richywilts on April 10, 2012, 08:27:20 am
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just wondering if you can run a franchise type model to your business without officially being a franchise
when speaking to people they always ask if im a franchise and with problems ive had with staff etc its just a thought
i know if you provide a van and work etc then realistically the worker is your employee
but is there a way around it without actually being a franchise
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in short, yes!
all you are doing is essentially charging somebody to run your business, and then they are paying you a percentage of their income.
if you are a professionally run franchise though they have a very long, legal agreement that you sign up to which covers many many problems that can arise.
i wouldnt risk it myself
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:o :o :o
Another idea!!!
Get out and clean some windows.
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just wondering if you can run a franchise type model to your business without officially being a franchise
when speaking to people they always ask if im a franchise and with problems ive had with staff etc its just a thought
i know if you provide a van and work etc then realistically the worker is your employee
but is there a way around it without actually being a franchise
You can run a business however you want.
Franchising is more than just having people working for you but self-employed (which is the subtext I read in your question). If that's what you're looking to do then you're entering an area that I don't understand; the law's very complex. One vitally important factor in a franchise agreement is the separation of their business from yours. I suspect you don't want to do that from what you say.
Trying to "find a way around" being an employer is not a reason to consider franchising, so I'd strongly advise you to forget the idea.
Vin
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Its call a partnership but then you need to give them advice and mentoring as well as a fullproof opperating system. ??? ???
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its not my new idea before anyone asks just wondering if its possible as i did look into franchising a while ago but they wouldnt allow me to franchise my name as its to descriptive of window cleaning, so just thinkin for future reference as a friend was wanting to use my name and i was thinking of maybe allowing my employee to trade under the name so hes responsible for his own work etc
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Richy just out of interest who told you that you couldnt franchise your business name?
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its not my new idea before anyone asks just wondering if its possible as i did look into franchising a while ago but they wouldnt allow me to franchise my name as its to descriptive of window cleaning, so just thinkin for future reference as a friend was wanting to use my name and i was thinking of maybe allowing my employee to trade under the name so hes responsible for his own work etc
are you not talking about registering a trade mark ?
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Hi Richy I think I know where your coming from a friend of mine with a massive window cleaning business has just in effect laid his entire workforce off they're now all self employed and pay my mate a monthly fee ... No sick pay no holiday pay etc etc to worry about.
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just wondering if you can run a franchise type model to your business without officially being a franchise
when speaking to people they always ask if im a franchise and with problems ive had with staff etc its just a thought
i know if you provide a van and work etc then realistically the worker is your employee
but is there a way around it without actually being a franchise
Why wouldn't you want to become a franchise? Solve all your problems and ensure everythings on a proper legal base.
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Hi Richy I think I know where your coming from a friend of mine with a massive window cleaning business has just in effect laid his entire workforce off they're now all self employed and pay my mate a monthly fee ... No sick pay no holiday pay etc etc to worry about.
you have a FRIEND :o
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we rang a few of these franchise setup companies and they looked into it for us and said the name coz it contains window clean would be too descriptive i.e i could franchise under name window gleam direct but not window clean direct because it would restrict other companies from setting up as window cleaning franchises.
i get asked that many times if my companies is a franchise it gets me thinking if this would be a better route at times as i could work up to vat nearly then take my percentages from others and save hassle of employing and paying holidays etc,ive got a fair share of experience and problems i can pass on to others as i think ive been there done it and got the tshirt with pretty much everything that could be thrown at me however i do lack the business skills at minute to be main franchisor just thinking in few years time
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Hi Richy I think I know where your coming from a friend of mine with a massive window cleaning business has just in effect laid his entire workforce off they're now all self employed and pay my mate a monthly fee ... No sick pay no holiday pay etc etc to worry about.
you have a FRIEND :o
apart from you no :'(
oh my wife ... shes my best friend :-*
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just wondering if you can run a franchise type model to your business without officially being a franchise
when speaking to people they always ask if im a franchise and with problems ive had with staff etc its just a thought
i know if you provide a van and work etc then realistically the worker is your employee
but is there a way around it without actually being a franchise
Why wouldn't you want to become a franchise? Solve all your problems and ensure everythings on a proper legal base.
i would prefer to become a franchise ian but cant under my name so the appeal of using my name etc and logos and literature would all need to be changed
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just wondering if you can run a franchise type model to your business without officially being a franchise
when speaking to people they always ask if im a franchise and with problems ive had with staff etc its just a thought
i know if you provide a van and work etc then realistically the worker is your employee
but is there a way around it without actually being a franchise
Why wouldn't you want to become a franchise? Solve all your problems and ensure everythings on a proper legal base.
i would prefer to become a franchise ian but cant under my name so the appeal of using my name etc and logos and literature would all need to be changed
I don't understand that, Richy. Your trading name is Window Clean Direct, isn't it? So as a franchisor you would still be Window Clean Direct and your franchisees would be (Tommy Atkinson) trading as Window Clean Direct. Is someone else already registered under the same name as you? If so you ought to be changing your name anyway, if not there's nothing stopping you.
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no ian we were just told it was too descriptive of the service im offering maybe in was wrong advice, il look into it furthur it was just general enquiries at the time so didnt really take it any furthur but its a route id be interested in taking
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If WINDOW CLEAN DIRECT is "too descriptive" wouldn't JIMS MOWING be classed as "too descriptive" then?
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good point its not really saying gardening tho is it or lawn treatment
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Just buy Ians package for £1500 and away you go!
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no ian we were just told it was too descriptive of the service im offering maybe in was wrong advice, il look into it furthur it was just general enquiries at the time so didnt really take it any furthur but its a route id be interested in taking
No such thing!! A business name OUGHT to be descriptive. Whoever advised you, I hope you didn't pay him!!
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Just buy Ians package for £1500 and away you go!
Couldn't have put it better myself ;D
Thanks Mark
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I hope somebody has told "burger" king about this.
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i hate to get involved in any RW threads ( usually just like to watch ;D )
but a few points i'd like to make -
1. your name is not to 'descriptive' i had " dial a dog wash " come and give the German Shepard a wash and brush up today - he's a franchise with deascriptive name ...
2. over the years i've had several customers ask if i was a franchise - some just interested in how i started out and a couple 'fishing' to see if they could get a 'franchise' for themselves - does not mean it's a good idea
3. as mentioned you don't really want to franchise do you - your just looking at ways to employ but negate your responcabilities
4. Franchising i feel would really suit you Richy - but you would have to it set it up correctly and do all the legal stuff which unfortunatly i feel you'd gloss over and end up with bigger problems
try to focus on your biz - get back to basics - go and clean windows
Darran
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The problem with a franchise is that you have to convince the prospect that you are worth punting 1000's on and possibly giving up a full time job.
Now Richy sounds like a decent guy but reading his posts on here I don't think he could convince me to let him have thousands of my hard earned in the hope of him setting me up.
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no ian we were just told it was too descriptive of the service im offering maybe in was wrong advice, il look into it furthur it was just general enquiries at the time so didnt really take it any furthur but its a route id be interested in taking
No such thing!! A business name OUGHT to be descriptive. Whoever advised you, I hope you didn't pay him!!
I suspect that the franchise guy was referring to Richy making his name a registered trade mark, when the rules mentioned do become a problem.
Vin
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i really like your business name richy . i wouldn't part with that. basically i think you dont want to be a window cleaner i can see that it probably bores you but the business side appeals to you. lets face it you couldn't get many businesses less basic than window cleaning.i wouldn't ever employ anyone. they have too many benefits that a small business cant afford. self employed is the way forward but one guy is not gonna make you any money.
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what % is your domestic and comm Rich
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Dragons Den .. few years ago.. UK COMMERCIAL CLEANING .. franchise... similar descriptive type...
As Sir Richard Branson says "screw this let do this"... so screw it and do it!
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The problem with a franchise is that you have to convince the prospect that you are worth punting 1000's on and possibly giving up a full time job.
Now Richy sounds like a decent guy but reading his posts on here I don't think he could convince me to let him have thousands of my hard earned in the hope of him setting me up.
Hence Richy should go and see Ian Lancaster, he has been doing it for few years now, and successful at it, £1.500 he charge is nothing compare to all those guys in a suite, who charge Arm & Leg to give you a wrong advice.
So go and see Ian- Lancaster Richy.
I am glad I did , it was one of my best investment I have done. :)
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The problem with a franchise is that you have to convince the prospect that you are worth punting 1000's on and possibly giving up a full time job.
Now Richy sounds like a decent guy but reading his posts on here I don't think he could convince me to let him have thousands of my hard earned in the hope of him setting me up.
Hence Richy should go and see Ian Lancaster, he has been doing it for few years now, and successful at it, £1.500 he charge is nothing compare to all those guys in a suite, who charge Arm & Leg to give you a wrong advice.
So go and see Ian- Lancaster Richy.
I am glad I did , it was one of my best investment I have done. :)
do you have any franchisess Bosh ?
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to be honest its light years away for me at present it wasnt me who rang the franshise company so im not 100% on what was actually said maybe it was the trademark or something about having to trademark your name to get the franchise process going.
the idea is simply a friend of mine who aint great with marketing covers runcorn and chester and the lad who works for me lives in the wirral (bit too far for me to travel for domestics) if i could get maybe one more franchise to work an area close by we could begin getting the brand out there
moneys not a major goal of mine what i visioned was building a brand and having lots of vans about, having gone down the employing route i have found it difficult maybe im just still a bit young and not ready to fully commit
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richy it isn't that daft a question mate to be honest, there is a firm round here, and I don't know how they do it legally, but lots of vans and everyone is self employed but all with the same company name on the van, it is nearly all commercial but I can't answer your question, as I don't know who owns the vans and how they work it, but as far as I know it isn't a franchise, so it is a question worth asking.
I can only imagine they are breaking employment laws or have found an in between route, or they all sole traders, trading in the same company name and brand, but with separate accounts etc, but I can't see that being easy to run or legal
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I don't think it's that complex.
I know a bloke around here who was a handyman who came up with the idea to call his one man business 'dial a hubby'.
With almost no experience of business and no knowledge of franchising, in 3 years he now has an incredibly successful franchise business.
I know he hit on a really good name in 'dial a hubby' but he had no prior experience.
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and richy, I will just add, whenever I used a well printed leaflet to deliver etc, I was often asked was I a franchise ??? people aren't used to a sign written van and uniform at their door, I wouldn't read to much into it though, the vast majority just aren't used that small bit extra professionalism you are showing.
not that I think it did me any good on a sales level, did much better with black and white and a tattie old van ;D but hey that is the public for you
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I don't think it's that complex.
I know a bloke around here who was a handyman who came up with the idea to call his one man business 'dial a hubby'.
With almost no experience of business and no knowledge of franchising, in 3 years he now has an incredibly successful franchise business.
I know he hit on a really good name in 'dial a hubby' but he had no prior experience.
yes ross, but he wants to know if it can be done without actually franchising
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Franchising can be done in alot of ways, it doesnt always have to involve big sums to buy into so it can be done anyway you see fit...
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Franchising can be done in alot of ways, it doesnt always have to involve big sums to buy into so it can be done anyway you see fit...
YEH BUT ;D he didn't ask how to franchise, he asked if you could just use the idea and employ, self employed lads using his brand ??? so why are you all going on about franchising?
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yes ross, but he wants to know if it can be done without actually franchising
I take it then that Richy means can run his business in the same way as he sort of does now but with workers self employed?
In a word 'NO'.
Self employed as in 'self employed but working for another' has very strict definitions. They can be found on the HMRC website.
Years ago when I worked in a partnership and ran a sizeable small business window cleaning, we looked into it properly.
Franchise or employ. Both require a type of legal contract. Those are the two options. There's no middle ground as far as the tax man is concerned.
Self employ but using Richy's brand makes no difference. It's how, and who for, and in what manner, that the work is done that the tax man goes by.
Also, before Richy or anyone asks, subcontract is something different entirely.
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But you can put a franchise agreement in place without the need for large amounts of money, so yes you can have guys working for you without employing...
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But you can put a franchise agreement in place without the need for large amounts of money, so yes you can have guys working for you without employing...
so it will be a franchise then, where is the hit my head off the table icon, he asked if it can be done without actually franchising
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It could be done on an agency agreement or on a licence agreement, but the point I am trying to make without dramatic statements like hitting your head on the table, is that a franchise agreement can take many forms so it can be done without the need for what some people will see as a traditional franchise agreement.... ie the franchisee gives the franchisor a big cheque to be involved in the business...
That is what I think richie was asking so that is my answer....
Any more over dramatic statements??
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Ask the tax man first because that is the problem.
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Sorry but how is the tax man the problem? There are thousands of companies that have agents and self employed people that work for them and them alone.... It can be done...
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I suppose we could all just shut up and let richy say what he was asking ;)
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The tax man is the problem because it's him who decides what is 'employing someone' and what 'isn't'.
You can come up with contracts, franchise type ideas, subcontracting theories, anything, but the tax man's rules about what is 'employing' and what 'isn't', is what matters.
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So how come I read in the papers everyday that someone working for the government sets up a limited company so they pay less tax on the earnings? Tax law is not black and white, thats why tax lawyers earn so much money.
Look up hillarys blinds, you can become an agent for them for 1250 quid and you are SELF EMPLOYED! They are a huge nationwide company and a household name, you going to tell me you are right and they are wrong?
I could search out more similar opportunities out there but would be pointless...
The point is that it CAN be done as many are, it may be smaller scale but it is possible...
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Yes..... it can be done but you need to do it in the right way....... according to the rules laid down by the tax man.
Jeepers. You cannot make up your own rules. What is so complex to understand?
Tax avoidance schemes are something different completely.
One is about what is 'employing' , or not, and the other is about profit and reducing tax liability.
Sorry, having been in such a position about what is employment or not, and having spend thousands on advise, I give up trying to explain it further.
Best to say, seek proper legal advice first and the first port of call, HMRC.
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I never said you could make up your own rules....
The relevance of the ltd companies was not the tax avoidance, it was that people can work solely for one organisation without being employed.... But you have already agreed thats true....
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I never said you could make up your own rules....
The relevance of the ltd companies was not the tax avoidance, it was that people can work solely for one organisation without being employed.... But you have already agreed thats true....
According to the rules laid down by HMRC. Help..... jibber jibber drawl dribble head bang the wall.............................
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How very dramatic, grow up.... If you cant bother having a discussion without resorting to those kind of tactics then just dont bother....
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So you highlighted that point, are you a tax lawyer that knows the rules inside out?
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The problem with a franchise is that you have to convince the prospect that you are worth punting 1000's on and possibly giving up a full time job.
Now Richy sounds like a decent guy but reading his posts on here I don't think he could convince me to let him have thousands of my hard earned in the hope of him setting me up.
Hence Richy should go and see Ian Lancaster, he has been doing it for few years now, and successful at it, £1.500 he charge is nothing compare to all those guys in a suite, who charge Arm & Leg to give you a wrong advice.
So go and see Ian- Lancaster Richy.
I am glad I did , it was one of my best investment I have done. :)
do you have any franchisess Bosh ?
Yes i do.
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Seems like the most complicated way I've seen of having 2 lads out cleaning windows. Personally I would offer To buy your friend out and have him work for you? Plus I thought you was thinking of letting the other lad go?
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keith i was thinking of letting him go he asking for too much money and im getting too many complaints giving him an appraisal today to straighten things out so gonna give it 4 weeks trial to improve, only just finding out off customer they aint been happy for months with standards so ive got to dramatically change something its hard when certain customers are ringing saying windows look great and so you think everythings going sound but then next minute your inundated with complaints, now i know people were saying i was giving him to much work but that is what he can do but i think the problem started when i was allowing him to get work done and go home to help with wedding arrangements etc i think hes been blitzing the work too fast and standards have dropped
im not really thinkin of franchise anytime soon i just thought id ask the question as it has recently came up in conversation with the lad who was looking to sell you a bit of work
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I never said you could make up your own rules....
The relevance of the ltd companies was not the tax avoidance, it was that people can work solely for one organisation without being employed.... But you have already agreed thats true....
According to the rules laid down by HMRC. Help..... jibber jibber drawl dribble head bang the wall.............................
only tactic that works with GD window cleaning is flat ignoring his comments. he seems to have far too much time on his hands and a MASSIVE chip on his shoulder ;D
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Richard, is that because I have my own opinions that dont match yours? Ask the people that know me and you will get a true opinion of me, not some version that you read into on here....
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a true opinion of me, not some version that you read into on here....
there's an awful lot of your opinion to read on here isnt there! ;)
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So having an opinion is wrong? There are alot of people who post more than me...
One thing about smileys, you cant mug someone off and put a smiley at the end, it looks smug and arrogant. A smiley face is not license to say what you like then make it look all friendly. If you dont like what I say then dont comment....
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George, when you gonna call me bud?
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Life's too short for all this handbag twirling.
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keith i was thinking of letting him go he asking for too much money and im getting too many complaints giving him an appraisal today to straighten things out so gonna give it 4 weeks trial to improve, only just finding out off customer they aint been happy for months with standards so ive got to dramatically change something its hard when certain customers are ringing saying windows look great and so you think everythings going sound but then next minute your inundated with complaints, now i know people were saying i was giving him to much work but that is what he can do but i think the problem started when i was allowing him to get work done and go home to help with wedding arrangements etc i think hes been blitzing the work too fast and standards have dropped
im not really thinkin of franchise anytime soon i just thought id ask the question as it has recently came up in conversation with the lad who was looking to sell you a bit of work
this explains a lot richy, as soon as you make the job and finished there is a temptation to rush, especially if it isn't your own work, when I had a lad we worked together and all of a sudden he was getting faster and faster, I expected this as he was young and improving speed, but it was getting really fast, then the complaints started, we worked together from the one van, he was looking at the work list and watching me tick off the jobs as knew once the sheet was done it was home time, so next day unknown to him, I let crack on as normal and as the sheet got close to being finished I pulled out another one and the dread on his face was funny to watch, I worked him until 4pm then sat him in the van and explained standards etc and how he wasn't meeting them, then next day we went out and redid all the houses he had cleaned again slowly, that did the trick, your unlucky in that you send him out alone, but the appraisal may work, worth a try
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Richy
I worked in the Taxi and Courier trade for years, all the drivers are self employed.
In the taxi trade the driver provides his own vechicle, but some taxi companies do rent these out as well, the taxi driver pays a weekly radio rent and he is put on the rank and allocated jobs on a rank system, all the takings belong to him.
The courier driver also provides his own vechicle but is either paid a milege or commision of the job.
Both of these only work for one company and the taxman accepts that they are truly self employed.
You might want to look at this method.
The other way forward is look at your strengths and weaknesses, you seem to be good at getting work, but fail at the admistration and window cleaning side.
Why not get in a general manager who runs the admin and cleaning side of the business, while you consentrate on what you are good at which is getting the work in.
You will still need to sit down with the general manager to know what is happening in your business, but leave the running to him.
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The other way forward is look at your strengths and weaknesses, you seem to be good at getting work, but fail at the admistration and window cleaning side.
Why not get in a general manager who runs the admin and cleaning side of the business, while you consentrate on what you are good at which is getting the work in.
You will still need to sit down with the general manager to know what is happening in your business, but leave the running to him.
I think that is a good idea myself, having someone who will run the company for you and deal with the admin and operations while you deal with gaining of new customers.
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yeah i agree gonna give it three months see how much work i can get in cant afford a new manager just yet i actually enjoy window cleaning when its all decent work and customers have been rang so gates are unlocked im quite happy window cleaning but im more focussed now new tax year has begun cant wait to start smashing it again and rebuild steadily
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In the taxi and courier trade, both of which I've done, you're self employed partly because you can chose not to do a job.
When that option doesn't exist, you're not self employed.
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I'm stuck in the continuum again , help !!!!!! :(
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Bring in a manager? Kiss good bye to what? Fifteen grand a year plus your own non productive wages. Well there's thirty five thousand minimum your poor worker would have to fund.
Just keep it simple you could earn a brilliant wage on your own without the hassle of employing. You have the work in place. Sell or rent out the work you don't like and get off your arse.
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In the taxi and courier trade, both of which I've done, you're self employed partly because you can chose not to do a job.
When that option doesn't exist, you're not self employed.
the companies i worked for, this was not an option, if a driver refused work he was suspended or terminated.
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If Richy was to take on a manager, then the manager would have to go on the tools. It's obvious that richy's strong points aren't working on the tools or the man management of his staff but at the same time he wants to drive his business forward so I think that bringing someone in that was going to take the bull by the horns and push it forward would be a good investment. But the type of person he would have to look for would be someone very experienced who is really motivated and could take his business down different channels.
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That's the man Richy should be - not a manager.
Richy could work on his own and turn over £1000 a week with the round he has. I wouldn't mind betting Richy struggles to earn half that money in his present role as managing director swinging about in his chair down at the unit he doesn't need.
If he has a massive surplus off work then Ians Franchising route would be perfect for Richy and he could still earn money in his chair.
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Yes you are right, Richy should be that guy but that's his personality. He is struggling with the one employee at the moment, he has two vans and I presume that he's aiming at having both vans crewed and on the road. I know if I invested in two set ups I'd want the both manned. Either that or sells off his surplus assets and gives up the unit and does the work himself. I think if he doesn't take one of these two routes then it will be a downward spiral.
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richy have a look at you google review don't sound good for potential customers i would be looking at getting the comment removed.
http://maps.google.com/maps/place?oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=window+clean+direct&fb=1&hq=window+clean+direct&cid=1020208678140227434&ei=AMGGT7jYHoXr8QOOn_zSBw&sa=X&oi=local_result&ct=placepage-link&resnum=1&ved=0CFMQ4gkwAA (http://maps.google.com/maps/place?oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=window+clean+direct&fb=1&hq=window+clean+direct&cid=1020208678140227434&ei=AMGGT7jYHoXr8QOOn_zSBw&sa=X&oi=local_result&ct=placepage-link&resnum=1&ved=0CFMQ4gkwAA)
Paul
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IVE READ IT MATE DONT KNOW WHERE ITS COME FROM I THINK ITS A BLAG COZ I CERTAINLY DONT REMEMBER ANYONE COMPLAINING I USED TO FIT UPVC FASCIAS AND GUTTERING SO IT WOULDNT BE A PROBLEM FOR ME TO REPAIR ANY DAMAGE
IVE COMPLAINED TO GOOGLE AND TRIED TO HAVE IT REMOVED BUT NOT HEARD ANYTHING, STILL GET A FAIR SHARE OF WORK THRU WEBSITE SO PEOPLE MUSTNT TAKE ANY NOTICE OF IT
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Richy I used to get complaints for elite windows. I had one guy going ballistic down the phone at me because I hadn't turned up to fit his windows......this is elite window cleaning mate.......Oh, sorry.
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IVE READ IT MATE DONT KNOW WHERE ITS COME FROM I THINK ITS A BLAG COZ I CERTAINLY DONT REMEMBER ANYONE COMPLAINING I USED TO FIT UPVC FASCIAS AND GUTTERING SO IT WOULDNT BE A PROBLEM FOR ME TO REPAIR ANY DAMAGE
IVE COMPLAINED TO GOOGLE AND TRIED TO HAVE IT REMOVED BUT NOT HEARD ANYTHING, STILL GET A FAIR SHARE OF WORK THRU WEBSITE SO PEOPLE MUSTNT TAKE ANY NOTICE OF IT
NO NEED TO SHOUT I WAS ONLY SAYING !!
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IVE READ IT MATE DONT KNOW WHERE ITS COME FROM I THINK ITS A BLAG COZ I CERTAINLY DONT REMEMBER ANYONE COMPLAINING I USED TO FIT UPVC FASCIAS AND GUTTERING SO IT WOULDNT BE A PROBLEM FOR ME TO REPAIR ANY DAMAGE
IVE COMPLAINED TO GOOGLE AND TRIED TO HAVE IT REMOVED BUT NOT HEARD ANYTHING, STILL GET A FAIR SHARE OF WORK THRU WEBSITE SO PEOPLE MUSTNT TAKE ANY NOTICE OF IT
there's no point in asking google to remove it. you wont be able to get hold of a real person their, let alone them actually try to remove it.
all you can do is go to the source site and ask them to remove it if it's been scraped off another site. unfortunaltey in this case it was left on google.
unfortunatley you're stuck with it ???
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Richy I used to get complaints for elite windows. I had one guy going ballistic down the phone at me because I hadn't turned up to fit his windows......this is elite window cleaning mate.......Oh, sorry.
;D ;D ;D
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Richy you can leave a reply to the review or just add a review yourself in response