Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Shiners Express Ltd. on March 28, 2012, 05:36:42 pm
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Have any of you been getting problems with spotting in this warmer weather ???
Strangely this only occurs on windows that are being cleaned in direct sunlight. Windows in the shade are not spotting.
Have checked the TDS of production system output which never seems to change from the usual 25ppm. Swapped vehicles to see if it was a problem unique to one van with no obvious change. Even spending slightly longer rinsing doesn't seem to improve things.
If I can't find an alternative cause, the only thing left to try is a new set of 4040 membranes :(
Any ideas ?
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Turn the flow up.
Paul
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I think the clue is in the second line of your OP.
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U for real 25ppm ... Think that may be your problem
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Buy some resin ye meff
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I can see some work coming my way in Wiltshire soon ;)
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I think the clue is in the second line of your OP.
are you sure Matt ? - i thought 3rd line had the answer ???
Darran
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25 tds ::) <rolling eyes> :o
pure water equals 0.00 tds no wonder your getting spots keep it at 000 and you can nver blame the water.
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BUY RESIN!!! lmao ;D
We haven't used resin for almost 5 years and have never had this problem before!! Only found out by accident that if your RO produce is low enough, you don't need it. As some of you may know, i used to work for one of the large system manufacturers so I know what i'm talking about. HOWEVER!!! this situation really has me stumped!
We go through anything between 1200 and 1800 ltrs per day at the moment, so really don't want to start using resin again! especially if there's been no need for it during any summers in the past!
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Any ideas ?
Try using pure water
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BUY RESIN!!! lmao ;D
We haven't used resin for almost 5 years and have never had this problem before!! Only found out by accident that if your RO produce is low enough, you don't need it. As some of you may know, i used to work for one of the large system manufacturers so I know what i'm talking about. HOWEVER!!! this situation really has me stumped!
We go through anything between 1200 and 1800 ltrs per day at the moment, so really don't want to start using resin again! especially if there's been no need for it during any summers in the past!
it does not cost that much for resin, I use near on what you do per day, use twin di the costs are minimal, do you advertise your using pure water ?
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25 ppm on sunny days will spot.Those 25 particles are been concentrated in each droplet as they dry to quickly on a window.When the water dries slowly the particles are dispersed across the glass and not been drawn into the droplets.One can get away in a damp cooler weather with a 25 ppm but not when its hot and dry.Its quite logical if one just understands how it would work. 8) 8)
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Wizkid, I understand what you are saying, but surely the direct sunlight/temperature only effects the drying time, not the concentrate of tds per droplet?
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Window Washers, do you mind me asking how often you change your resin and what you're using?
We used to use MB400 at about £90/25ltrs.
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Window Washers, do you mind me asking how often you change your resin and what you're using?
We used to use MB400 at about £90/25ltrs.
I just changed some I have twin di that hold a sack each, normally once every 6 months ish depends how much water I use, I replaced both when I moved units about 18 months ago even I was shocked at how long it lasted.
I use tulsian 115 from daqua.co.uk
couple of bags cost : 2 Bags - £59.50 each (£71.40 including vat and UK delivery) one bag is 62.92+vat £75.50 including vat and UK delivery
your tds out of ro is quite high, I would defo look at reducing that too
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At what stage are you putting the water through the resin then?
We have a main production unit, then transfer to the vans every day. I'm guessing the best would be just before the holding tanks on the production unit?
What you getting out of RO's then?
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AS a drop of water dryes the particles of impurities in the water will move to the crest of the meniscus( the rounded top) of droplet and avoid the sides.Plus the particles will concentrate from the water that has already dried. If one tested the droplet of water just before it dried you would find that its TDS would reach a higher volume of particles.Pushing the tds to 50/60 which would form a drop shape mark.
When water evaporates slowly the particles will be spread evenly over the glass and will not be seen by the eye.Hope this helps to understand your problem.
Your D I works as a safe guard working as quality controller on your water, Even if you feel you do not need a di its is wise to use one as the R O is less stable and can charge quickly if it is becoming worn out IF you do not need a DI it will cost nothing to run as it will use no reason but will be a safe guard. 8)
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Thanks for your help Wizkid, in theory I completely agree with what you're saying, but it doesn't explain why we've never had this problem before!! Think i'm going to have to bite the bullet and go back to DI resin :( :(
Must remember to ask the mrs if she'd like some meniscus later!!! lmao
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At what stage are you putting the water through the resin then?
We have a main production unit, then transfer to the vans every day. I'm guessing the best would be just before the holding tanks on the production unit?
What you getting out of RO's then?
I put through resin jsut before going into holding tank, I pump pure into vans, sod carrying resin in the van or pumping it through resin at the spped my transfer pump goes it would not work anyway.
transfer pump is doing 650l in under 10 mins
at the moment its about ro out is 13
I do flush everytime I fill
what waste to pure are you getting for 25 ?
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At what stage are you putting the water through the resin then?
We have a main production unit, then transfer to the vans every day. I'm guessing the best would be just before the holding tanks on the production unit?
What you getting out of RO's then?
I put through resin jsut before going into holding tank, I pump pure into vans, sod carrying resin in the van or pumping it through resin at the spped my transfer pump goes it would not work anyway.
transfer pump is doing 650l in under 10 mins
at the moment its about ro out is 13
I do flush everytime I fill
what waste to pure are you getting for 25 ?
how do you flush your ro?
thanks
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AS a drop of water dyes the particles of impurities in the water will move to the crest of the meniscus( the rounded top) of droplet and avoid the sides.Plus the particles will concentrate from the water that has already dried. If one tested the droplet of water just before it dried you would find that its TDS would reach a higher volume of particles.Pushing the tds to 50/60 which would form a drop shape mark.
When water evaporates slowly the particles will be spread evenly over the glass and will not be seen by the eye.Hope this helps to understand your problem.
Your D I works as a safe guard working as quality controller on your water, Even if you feel you do not need a di its is wise to use one as the R O is less stable and can charge quickly if it is becoming worn out IF you do not need a DI it will cost nothing to run as it will use no reason but will be a safe guard. 8)
Good explaination.
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Thanks mate, happy to help. Always though my education was wasted. :) :)
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i have been getting some spotting to but only when direct sunlight on the window my tds is 000 ppm and my flow is high... one of my fellow shiner friends has said the same and he always runs on 000ppm and rinses for england ??? ??? ???
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You could be getting some residual on the glass due to pollution in your area. Remember pure will not de-solve all pollution deposits on the glass after all is only water.The most difficult one is from cement which need to be burned off with acid or buffet of with a compound.From what I understand pure made from high tds water should clean better than low TDS as it has the nature need to return to what it was when it was high tds water.This pure I believe is more able to de solve more deposits and this is why some folk have this problem and some don`t. If my theory is correct, it would explain it all.I will run this by some who know more than me.By the way is your TDS high or low?
Smear this was for you.
I also believe you spotting is always there but is only visual in sun light.
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Got a big job on in the morning - getting there for 4 to avoid the direct sunlight!
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I only work at night now to avoid the sun.
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Window Washers, 50/50 split for waste to produce. Coming out of tap at 450ppm.
Have just reinstated a pair of old DI bottles, forgotten how fiddley it is to replace the resin. Found an unopen bag of resin in my shed and blow me down it's still giving 000ppm!!
See what happens tomorrow and will let you know! 8)
Window Washer + Wizkid, Don't suppose you'd send me your e-mail address? info@shinersexpress.com Might pick your brains a bit more if you don't mind?!! ;)
Ben m, flush your RO by opening the flow valve up all the way so all water goes to waste and no produce. Leave it run for 10-15 minutes before turning valve in again. Good to prolong life of RO especially if you salt back wash regularly.
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Some windows seem to spot no matter what you do. And no matter how good the water is. I always get a few.
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Vince as above."I also believe your spotting is always there but is only visual in sun light."
I also have some spotting I can only see when the glass is wet.I am going to use a random orbital sander with a sponge pad disk with Dr Power and then Brasso if need be and see if it does not improve I believe it will fix.
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Shinners express The best way to get hold of me is to" FOA WIZKID me on here. If its not for forum ears . I will send you my e mail.
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Window Washers, 50/50 split for waste to produce. Coming out of tap at 450ppm.
Have just reinstated a pair of old DI bottles, forgotten how fiddley it is to replace the resin. Found an unopen bag of resin in my shed and blow me down it's still giving 000ppm!!
See what happens tomorrow and will let you know! 8)
Window Washer + Wizkid, Don't suppose you'd send me your e-mail address? info@shinersexpress.com Might pick your brains a bit more if you don't mind?!! ;)
Ben m, flush your RO by opening the flow valve up all the way so all water goes to waste and no produce. Leave it run for 10-15 minutes before turning valve in again. Good to prolong life of RO especially if you salt back wash regularly.
thanks shiners :D
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AS a drop of water dryes the particles of impurities in the water will move to the crest of the meniscus( the rounded top) of droplet and avoid the sides.Plus the particles will concentrate from the water that has already dried. If one tested the droplet of water just before it dried you would find that its TDS would reach a higher volume of particles.Pushing the tds to 50/60 which would form a drop shape mark.
When water evaporates slowly the particles will be spread evenly over the glass and will not be seen by the eye.Hope this helps to understand your problem.
Your D I works as a safe guard working as quality controller on your water, Even if you feel you do not need a di its is wise to use one as the R O is less stable and can charge quickly if it is becoming worn out IF you do not need a DI it will cost nothing to run as it will use no reason but will be a safe guard. 8)
That's a cracking answer!!
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my email address is design@windowwashers.co.uk I have nothing to hide my names Ian ;)
Ben to your reply, I turn a flush tap disconnect from resin first then turn on pump for 10 mins it then flushes over the membranes (this is on a 4040) I would recommend if you want it to last do this every fill some say don't but I disagree with them.
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Thanks for your help Wizkid, in theory I completely agree with what you're saying, but it doesn't explain why we've never had this problem before!! Think i'm going to have to bite the bullet and go back to DI resin :( :(
Must remember to ask the mrs if she'd like some meniscus later!!! lmao
Adding to what Wiz has said, if your RO isn't pumped but relies on mains pressure, many areas will be lowering the mains pressure if they haven't already. This is to combat leaks in a drought. Lower pressure usually means higher TDS from RO. Also, that 25ppm could consist of anything. It is worse with some dissolved solids than others. If your area is pumping in water from elsewhere, the constituents of that 25 ppm may have changed recently.
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Shiners, you still got that Jack Russel in the van?
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Paul you have a point 25ppm does not say what`s it is made up of.That would change from area to area.Any ways fellows. I need to go to Oxford to deliver our findings on this very important scientific finding.I am sure we will have to write a white paper on it.Or even a Nobel water prize ( a splash with a blond is a bath for one) 8) ;D ;D ;D
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25 ppm on sunny days will spot.Those 25 particles are been concentrated in each droplet as they dry to quickly on a window.When the water dries slowly the particles are dispersed across the glass and not been drawn into the droplets.One can get away in a damp cooler weather with a 25 ppm but not when its hot and dry.Its quite logical if one just understands how it would work. 8) 8)
No offence WIZKID thats a load of crap.
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So Clear clean you came on here last year and your already know it all.One GSSE does allow a opinion.Go on then you tell us why so many get spotting.Lets have a dose of your crap.I await with bated breath.The floor is yours.
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You could be getting some residual on the glass due to pollution in your area. Remember pure will not de-solve all pollution deposits on the glass after all is only water.The most difficult one is from cement which need to be burned off with acid or buffet of with a compound.From what I understand pure made from high tds water should clean better than low TDS as it has the nature need to return to what it was when it was high tds water.This pure I believe is more able to de solve more deposits and this is why some folk have this problem and some don`t. If my theory is correct, it would explain it all.I will run this by some who know more than me.By the way is your TDS high or low?
Smear this was for you.
I also believe you spotting is always there but is only visual in sun light.
I like the look of most of your posts on this thread but I think this is a step too far. Water has no memory (regardless of the homeopath nutters). If it's pure, it's pure and it'll dissolve what it's used to wash regardless. If you take your argument to its logical extreme, remember that every drop of water on the planet has been seawater, so it's all identical.
Vin
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I can't understand some of the pseudoscience theories being put forward regarding the subject.
Its simple to understand that glass in direct sunlight at a reasonable temperature gets warm.
It is very likely especially with hydrophobic glass that water will start to evaporate or cease to sheet off the glass enough to clean off all the dirt particles in direct sunlight resulting in spotting.
The answer is to rinse these windows with much more effort and attention than is normally required.
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So Clear clean you came on here last year and your already know it all.One GSSE does allow a opinion.Go on then you tell us why so many get spotting.Lets have a dose of your crap.I await with bated breath.The floor is yours.
Ok heres my answer, I have been using the forum for over 2 years , but I have been window cleaning 11 yrs and wfp 6 yrs. so theres your 1st mistake or is it 2nd?
How long have you been window cleaning WIZKID?
I wont try a scientific retort because I only have 1 gcse, or do I?
Ok go on then I will have a try...There is a critical level you can use nearly pure water I dont know exactly what it is perhaps you could tell us you seem to know everything else! anyway what i was saying is if your water doesnt leave spotting when its cool it wont do when the conditions are warmer.
Over to you Hawkins
And btw it would appear I have been registered on the forum longer than you, (not that it matters) I say appear because I suspect you are one of the old guard judging by your know it all posts at every oppertunity?
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Have any of you been getting problems with spotting in this warmer weather ???
Strangely this only occurs on windows that are being cleaned in direct sunlight. Windows in the shade are not spotting.
Have checked the TDS of production system output which never seems to change from the usual 25ppm. Swapped vehicles to see if it was a problem unique to one van with no obvious change. Even spending slightly longer rinsing doesn't seem to improve things.
If I can't find an alternative cause, the only thing left to try is a new set of 4040 membranes :(
Any ideas ?
25 ppm might have something to do with it. its pure water you need to use.
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itll be the high tds mate.i dont let my water go above 10 without changing my resin.its currently 03 with no spotting or problems whatsoever!! ;) ;D ;D ;D
bite the bullet and stop trying to be a cheapskate and polish your water off down to 000.ill be changing my resin over the easter break ready for aprils onslaught of work.
surely your making a good wedge with the amount of water your using!! ;) ;D ;D
best wishes
dazmond
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Thanks for your help Wizkid, in theory I completely agree with what you're saying, but it doesn't explain why we've never had this problem before!! Think i'm going to have to bite the bullet and go back to DI resin :( :(
Must remember to ask the mrs if she'd like some meniscus later!!! lmao
you said you may have to go back to di??? so if you have soft water, where did you go wrong, did you go ro or somthing, what is your water tds now
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Well, as I understand it . . . . my water at 25ppm was just enough to dry properly during normal UK weather conditions ie. -2 to +10degrees, however, as we are experiencing much hotter conditions +15 to +23 degrees with direct sunlight, my meniscus can't disperse quick enough to dry properly ;) 8)
This theory has been confirmed in practice today, so big thanks to Window Washers and Wizkid :) :)
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is your water before filtration 25ppm
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tds at 25ppm-surely this is not 'pure water'
We live in a very hard water area, and if it even looks at going over 3 , we will get spotting(we have had this)
To that end, we soften the water,3 stage filter, r/o, final polish with resin and no problems.The BIG diference has been the addition of the softner
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50/50 split for waste to produce. Coming out of tap at 450ppm.
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450ppm blimey that's worse lol and you thought of going back to di, ro is what you should be using
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Got to say, i have noticed spotting in this hot snap :(
Think im gonna rinse a bit more on hot days from now on, see if that sorts it out
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jouk45, don't think you've read the thread have you?! ;)
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yes i did, sorry just trying to help. think this confused me,
Think i'm going to have to bite the bullet and go back to DI resin
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jouk45, I sincerely appreciate your trying to help, please don't misunderstand me. :)
We currently use RO and used to use DI in addition, but on one occasion many moons ago, realized we had been using spent resin for the previous 3 months!! did my test windows (home) to check results and hey presto, all fine, so decided to stop using resin as it is very expensive. However, due to the current situation, I have been convinced to start using resin again.
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jouk45, I sincerely appreciate your trying to help, please don't misunderstand me. :)
We currently use RO and used to use DI in addition, but on one occasion many moons ago, realized we had been using spent resin for the previous 3 months!! did my test windows (home) to check results and hey presto, all fine, so decided to stop using resin as it is very expensive. However, due to the current situation, I have been convinced to start using resin again.
ahh i see, so why is it now you can use resin again as it was so expensive before i now use tulsion resin, best their is just a tip, maybe you can double up your resin vessels, that may also cut down on your resin expense
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lol there's a line between paying for expensive resin . . .or. . . loosing customers!!
Doubling up on resin bottles will make no difference at all. While the vessels will last twice as long, they'll cost twice as much to fill!
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Clear clean I have not spoken about a critical point you have so do not quite understand what you on about.
We are discussing a fellow shiner`s tds at 25 and spotting so please read this thread properly.
I have been a member of this forum since 2005 under a different name as we all used a few names and we were asked to only use one name I at the time. As with many lost the names we used and registered a new name.If I understand you right the critical point is 10 tds the is a finishing point but I believe as I said its my theory that the higher the tds is that pure want to return to its natural TDS and I said I would run by a friend who has a PHD and work as a industrial chemist.If there was not truth in theory then pure water would not absorb any thing on the glass. .In my previous work career I was directors of a chemical manufacturing Business Call Sun Glitzs USA and doing this job gave me a fair understanding of chemistry I am semi retired and am a senior man so I have been around a some time. I also hold a B.Com degree from the university of Stellenbosh South Africa. I enjoy shearing what I know with my fellow window cleaner.
And just for the record you told me told me I was talking crap, saying no offence does not excuse your insults. I have not asked to crit my threads so in future don`t read anything I might write.As I can see you don`t want to be helped in anyway and do not want to discuss anything. Seems the chip is heavy..But if you insult me I will give as good as I get.
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You could be getting some residual on the glass due to pollution in your area. Remember pure will not de-solve all pollution deposits on the glass after all is only water.The most difficult one is from cement which need to be burned off with acid or buffet of with a compound.From what I understand pure made from high tds water should clean better than low TDS as it has the nature need to return to what it was when it was high tds water.This pure I believe is more able to de solve more deposits and this is why some folk have this problem and some don`t. If my theory is correct, it would explain it all.I will run this by some who know more than me.By the way is your TDS high or low?
Smear this was for you.
I also believe you spotting is always there but is only visual in sun light.
we all know pure wants to go back to impure, but what you have said above is utter rubbish! how does the water know how impure it was? if we have 2 seperate litres of pure they will absorb at the same rate regardless of what ppm they were brought down from.
I have no chip and Im greatful of peoples help and knowledge. I just dont like people who think they are above everyone else, whose posts are always flavoured with Narcicism and you seem to be one of them.
Your name says it all= Ego.
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450 tds out of tap? Has your tds meter been calibrated?
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lol there's a line between paying for expensive resin . . .or. . . loosing customers!!
Doubling up on resin bottles will make no difference at all. While the vessels will last twice as long, they'll cost twice as much to fill!
Shiners,
Not if you use them correctly.
Fill vessels one and two and run the water through in series.
Once output TDS gets above zero, replace the resin in vessel one. Move vessel two into position one and put the vessel full of fresh resin in position two. That way you get the absolute maximum usage you can possibly get out of all of your resin. You're not throwing away resin that can get you to TDS of, say 002, you're now using it to preserve your new resin. (Hope that makes sense)
Note that if you do this, you will not save a single penny in the future by letting the TDS get above zero, so you might as well replace it on the day it hits 001; you've made the saving already by going to two vessels. I repeat, replace it on the day it goes to 001.
Vin
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450 tds out of tap? Has your tds meter been calibrated?
mines about 450ppm out the tap here in Bristol, comes out the RO at about 13ppm
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god you lot dont half waffle
simply put the higher the tds the more chance of spotting,anything up to 10ppm
ive never had a problem with. 15ppm i have def seen spotting.certain types of frames
can cause you problems even with 0ppm.my personal favourite is those crappy windows
covered in that stick on fake lead crap it always causes problem,but hey just worked round it.
the thing is wfp isnt a perfect system it isnt going to do all the work for you,sometimes
you might just have to think for yourselves i know its asking a bit much but i have faith
in you ;)
bloody bunch of tarts ;D
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I'm in your area Shiners - I buy two bags tops in a year - probably less than that as a sole trader.
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Cleancare . I said its a theory. WHY DON`T YOU STAY ON THE CARPET SIDE WERE YOU BELONG. I DON`T COMMENT ON THE YOUR GAME STAY OUT OF MINE. Mate do me favour I don`t care what you think or say, you are not important to me. I can live without you, just take a hike. End of. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Mark Etting, have we met? Wilson (the jack russell) doesn't come out anymore, prefers sunbathing in the back garden!! What a life!!
Perfect Windows - Think you may be right you know, certainly makes sense!
jouk45 - I stand corrected - again!
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Wizkid, I understand what you are saying, but surely the direct sunlight/temperature only effects the drying time, not the concentrate of tds per droplet?
Yes the drying time is effected but the dissolved parts are attracted to the water not the glass Its like a pond as the water is reduced in it the fish move to the smaller water area not dry banks. So for the example but its the best I could think of at the time.