Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Roger Koh on March 15, 2012, 12:30:31 am
-
I transfer this to a new thread as it has created interest among us, how best to do it.
Its dog peed on this 1940 French style aniline leather sofa.
This leather condition easily becomes "slimy" when wet and "sticky" when damp due to alkaline pH overexposure.
Anyone has a clue to solve this urine contamination made worst with household alkaline solution back to the original?
#1
(http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn4/Rogerkoh/6-5.jpg)
#2
(http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn4/Rogerkoh/1-15.jpg)
#3 Here is the stain. The dark part is stiffer than the unaffected area
(http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn4/Rogerkoh/2-16.jpg)
#4 Close-up
(http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn4/Rogerkoh/3-13.jpg)
#5 Water beads up initially, but then soaks in when massaged.
(http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn4/Rogerkoh/4-13.jpg)
#6 Water – 5 minutes after application.
(http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn4/Rogerkoh/5-9.jpg)
Roger Koh
-
Thanks for your interest…
Abi, Jim, Craigp and Hector.
Jim.
By the way, let me know if you like to have a second opinion regarding how best to restore the black "antique finish" that have wear off.
Roger certainly gets some challenges. I for one would love to see the end result, and the process that he used to rectify such damage. By seeing problems on a forum, and having it explained fully, I believe, tremendously helps those that may be searching for a better education be it carpet or upholstery cleaning, leather repairs, or any other segment that we find ourselves being faced with daily. I can't see much point in simply posting photos and not naming products that are used to give the desired results. Maybe a personal email would be the way to inquire. ?? Shorty.
The 3 pictures below were the end results done by the owner himself from Texas, USA out of a DIY kit; I am from Vancouver, Canada giving advices. No difference if you have such problem in Australia, perhaps moldy problems; common in the almost tropical climate that you enjoy. Besides leathers, I receive such enquiries as to the care of Zebra skins and Cowhides that have musty odors and stiffness too. Well, we can go into more depth on the technicality if you wish on how this urine damaged aniline leathers were decontaminated and return back to its pre-damaged condition, with extra softness, suppleness and strength plus the buttery-feel and imparted classic leather scent pictures can't reveal. Question me more on process, if you wish…like what happen to the urine, sliminess, stickiness, smells, charred-marks, etc.
Robert
I think you will find that there are plenty of people in the UK who are taking on this kind of work and very successfully too - probably not on this forum though.
Thats a nice piece of furniture Roger - have just restored some very nice dining chairs from about the same era. On older furniture such as this it is always better to aim to restore the leather to keep the aesthetics of the piece rather than replacing panels which is not always an option as the panel would not match the others - obviously on more modern leather panel replacement would probably be the case. Our technicians always work closely with a local upholsterer who they can split the work with should the need arise. Cheers. Judyb
I agree to the restoring it aesthetically with understanding rather than the convenient of panel replacement to such an old piece circa 1940 for its history value sake.
Good to see a post from you Roger. That one's a nightmare, but no doubt you will get a result be degreasing and re hydrating. Over here the easy approach would be taken, ie, re upholstery which is obviously beyond the average carpet / upholstery cleaners. The viability of such a restoration in terms of time, handling, materials and actual time spent on the work makes it a non starter even for a relatively expensive item. So it's unlikely anyone in the UK would consider it. I know all of the materials can be sourced in the UK but most members of this and other forums don't have the premises or the set up to carry out such work. As far as the suite shown in this post is concerned I believe the de hydration is so bad the leather fibres are barely holding together and would require a large fexible patch on the back of the seats to stop splitting. I know there are products which may fill and bind the deep cracks but I've never used them. Looking forward to the end result and wishing I was a little younger with the knowledge and the pruducts available today.
As the leather on the suite shown has all but fallen apart and would require to have many hours spent on it and it would also require to be taken away to work on the cost would be enormous and therefore I believe non viable as a restoration job. I'm well aware there are people and products which could greatly improve the appearance of these items but it would have to be stripped from the frame in order to add strength and avoid the deep cracks becoming splits. I carried out a repair on a similarly " wrecked " chair about four years ago as an exercise and without charge as I deemed it to be experimental and for a relative. On that occasion I got a good result but I'd only worked on the top surface. Unfortunately I never kept track of the chair so don't know how long the repair lasted. Would be interesting to see some examples of similar restorations from the people you mention.
Robert;
Thanks for sharing your views on the confident that it can be done with new technology and yet the setback for such a task if done traditionally.
Pictures you see below are the result of such accomplishment with new technology using science and logic, by the owner himself with DIY kits.
Does he need to go for training, no; what he did was just taking instructions from the recommended urine kit for aniline leathers with confidence.
This job was done right over the rug on his probably antique coffee table too.
If a home owner can produce such result the first-time-right; how much potential would a professional be if he has taken the effort to acquire the latest 21st Century knowledge base on science and logic even out of a kit?
Of course there are interim pictures as well, before reaching this final result, if you wish to see them.
#1
(http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn4/Rogerkoh/Sofa2after.jpg)
#2
(http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn4/Rogerkoh/Sofa1after.jpg)
#3
(http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn4/Rogerkoh/AnilineCushion-after.jpg)
Roger Koh
-
I know this one!
Did he just turn the cushion over??
:P
-
I know this one!
Did he just turn the cushion over??
:P
Thanks for your curiosity!
Probably he would if he is a typical “Turnitup god”; out of sight, out of mind; like burying one’s head in the sand!
But it must be the smell that bothers him that he seeks a “Cleanitup god” such as me to give him peace of mind!
Roger Koh
-
Good to see a post from you Roger. That one's a nightmare, but no doubt you will get a result be degreasing and re hydrating. Over here the easy approach would be taken, ie, re upholstery which is obviously beyond the average carpet / upholstery cleaners. The viability of such a restoration in terms of time, handling, materials and actual time spent on the work makes it a non starter even for a relatively expensive item. So it's unlikely anyone in the UK would consider it. I know all of the materials can be sourced in the UK but most members of this and other forums don't have the premises or the set up to carry out such work. As far as the suite shown in this post is concerned I believe the de hydration is so bad the leather fibres are barely holding together and would require a large fexible patch on the back of the seats to stop splitting. I know there are products which may fill and bind the deep cracks but I've never used them. Looking forward to the end result and wishing I was a little younger with the knowledge and the pruducts available today.
Thank you for the confident that it can be done – coming to your shore!
#1 Complete hydration of the leather, after urine decontamination.
(http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn4/Rogerkoh/H1.jpg)
#2 Dwelling may take place up to 72 hours at pH 3.3 without fear of water damages – proven with the revolutionized “leather-safe” system.
(http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn4/Rogerkoh/H2.jpg)
These pictures also tells that it was done in home setting, right in the room versus;
"most members of this and other forums don't have the premises or the set up to carry out such work".
Moreover, no such “large fexible patch on the back of the seats to stop splitting” you mentioned was necessary as the fatliquor replenishing thereafter re-strengthen the leather chemistry integrity for practical usage again.
(http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn4/Rogerkoh/stain-soakthrough.jpg)
Can you guess, the purpose of using plastic wrapping?
Roger Koh
-
That's a great result Roger.
-
Can you guess, the purpose of using plastic wrapping?
Roger Koh
Would it be to stop the solution drying out or evaporating.??
Shorty.
-
Something I would point out. If I had a pee stained item I would treat it well away from the customers property. Apart from spilling products you have the posibilty of cross contamination. If it's your flowery table cloth and vase Roger I stand corrected. ;D
-
Roger I apologies if you mentioned this already but how long did that take to do? how many visits to the clients home? or was it done in one visit?
-
Can you guess, the purpose of using plastic wrapping? Roger Koh
Would it be to stop the solution drying out or evaporating.??
Shorty.
The answer is precisely right, to control evaporation!
The next question you may guess is why the plastic sheet over the tissue paper?
Roger Koh
-
Something I would point out. If I had a pee stained item I would treat it well away from the customers property. Apart from spilling products you have the posibilty of cross contamination. If it's your flowery table cloth and vase Roger I stand corrected. ;D
Remember I mentioned that this job was done by the owner himself with kits developed specially for urine decontamination of aniline leathers, and this is his first novice attempt. With the end results you have seen, seems to be done by a seasoned veteran but these ongoing pictures reveals otherwise.
He may have simply key in “aniline urine kit” in Google image search for a solution to his problem that he finally reached me.
These pictures you seen so far are all from him send to me for advice, whether he is doing it right, to repeat or the next step.
If done by a professional whether on-site or in-plant, the settings would be different; however the general principle of decontamination processes would be accordingly to the kit’s instructions.
One leather-safe system developed for both the professional and the DIY’er, and I believe a professional should produce a better result even on his first attempt.
Roger Koh
-
;D Rog it just goes to show that they dont actually read your posts but just look at the pictures
-
;D Rog it just goes to show that they dont actually read your posts but just look at the pictures
Picture is good too, a picture is worth a thousand words; I'll try to post more pictures!
Roger Koh
-
Can you guess, the purpose of using plastic wrapping? Roger Koh
The next question you may guess is why the plastic sheet over the tissue paper?
Roger Koh
Possibly for the tissue to absorb the soiling being released ??
Shorty.
-
Well all the more impressive if custy did it. Missed that bit.
-
Roger I apologies if you mentioned this already but how long did that take to do? how many visits to the clients home? or was it done in one visit?
Thank you for your interest in the revolutionize system of leather care; while most professionals are train in the old school of knowing when to walk away. The leather owner has no choice but to save their precious leather all by themselves.
This leather-safe system is instilled with science and logic, to accurately explaining and predicting the eventual outcome even before trying it.
“how long did that take to do?”
I lost count the duration, but not possible to be done within a week in this situation. For a mild situation it can be done within a day (if you like to see some pictures).
More than 90% of the decontaminations and leather rejuvenating time was left alone for the products to do its work accordingly.
“how many visits to the clients home?”
For professional my recommendation is doing away from customer’s place (considering this to be liken a cancer patient at the last stage), this leather is from circa 1940 older than me; besides he has made it worst with home alkaline dish washing detergent that dries the leather even further.
So the damages are urine compounded with alkalinity that accelerated the denaturing process – see the stain becomes “charred” from alkaline overexposure besides the obvious shrinkage from original fatliquor leaching out of the leather.
“was it done in one visit?”
No I did not; it was done by the owner himself.
Roger Koh
-
"Possibly for the tissue to absorb the soiling being released ??"
Shorty.
Yes! Your answer is right again!
It is again using simple logic!
Tissue is there to absorb the released soiling, especially the urine contents from the fibrous leather structure below surface. This is a holistic leather-safe approach that cleans from both off the surface and from below surface.
This technique of using tissue paper is never seen practice in the old school, let alone the plastic wrapping; as water is suppose to cause more damages to the leather when dry again.
But this outdated theory of water damages is being replaced by the leather-safe system.
It is not the water that damages the leather, it is the pH value that does!
Recommendation is to use fine facial tissue paper to become an extension of the skin of the leather; so that the wick-up foreign contamination can pass through and get trapped. It is also recommended that there should not have air bubble between the tissue and the surface to do so effectively.
Pictures revealed that it was not done accordingly, towel rags were used instead of fine facial tissue and there was an obvious air space otherwise the result would be better.
#1 The purpose for the tissue (towel rags does not produce dramatic result as seen in this case) is to catch the wick up urine through the hydrating process.
(http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn4/Rogerkoh/1-16.jpg)
#2 For the faint hearted, this picture looks like one big reason one should be be running away - but wait, follow the instruction, not done yet!
(http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn4/Rogerkoh/2-17.jpg)
#3 This picture show the hopeless wax (by PNZ called Antik Wachs) the owner try to save the stiffness of the leather has made the situation worse, an extra effort just to take care that they are totally removed. Another highlight is the split become quite obvious that need to be further repaired.
(http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn4/Rogerkoh/3-14.jpg)
So would you guess again how to get rid of the charred mark?
Roger Koh
-
I'm not sure what the Charring is, but if it is related to the wax that you mention, would a de-greaser now be appropriate ??
Is this charring related to chemical burning by the urine, similar to hide burns by dung ?? in which case I would probably look at sanding the affected areas.
Thanks,
Shorty.
-
I'm not sure what the Charring is, but if it is related to the wax that you mention, would a de-greaser now be appropriate ??
Thanks,
Shorty.
The charring has nothing to do with the waxed residue that was resurfaced after the hydration process (from using the penetrating and suspending power of a leather-safe pH 3.3 hydrator to bring foreign contamination to the surface). This whitish waxy residue can be easily removed using a leather Eraser-4 which is non destructive unlike using abrasive melamine sponges of any kind.
Roger Koh
-
This must be the Shorty and Rog show. ;D
-
Is this charring related to chemical burning by the urine, similar to hide burns by dung ?? in which case I would probably look at sanding the affected areas.
Thanks,
Shorty.
You are quite right, very similar yet different.
Anyway, what’s the smell of dung…ammonic?
pH of ammonia can goes beyond the pH value of 11, again depending on concentration and duration of exposure.
The pH of leather can be as low as 3, averaging from 3 to 5.
Surely it’s due of alkaline overexposure that causes the leather to have this charred effect.
So be caution when use alkaline based leather cleaners; otherwise it’s recommended to be pH neutralized to the leather acidic pH neutral of 3 to 5.
Sanding the affected areas is also a right approach to a limit, as the more is sand the coarser the grains become.
How it’s done is seen in these pictures.
Example of fatliquor application to "shrunk" marks with continuous application to saturate in between drying and erasing wick-up soiling particulates at drying intervals with a leather eraser.
(http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn4/Rogerkoh/fatliquor-50.jpg)
Example of leather eraser removing wick-up soiling particulates when crispy dry; this repeated wet and dry cycle of fatliquor replenishing and erasing is the recommended proven method to rectify the leather shrinkage and reduce the darkening effect; it’s the rejuvenating process for leather suppleness with softness and strength from unwanted stiffness and from further cracking.
(http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn4/Rogerkoh/Eraser-4.jpg)
Think about all the leather types and problems that we have walk away, can now be easily done by the owner himself.
Just image “Google it” aniline urine kit, and the show maybe over for us professionals; when we do not keep up with the latest technology!
Roger Koh
-
Thanks Roger, you have enlightened me greatly once again.
I'm off to Sydney for a few days so will be in touch after I get back.
Thanks for sharing your wisdom once again.
I think I'm becoming a leather junkie. ;D
I'm somewhat amazed that more people, especially in the U.K. where there is so much leather, didn't become more involved in this exercise. ???
Or is it maybe because of other prominent U.K. leather technicians that teach courses and sell products. ??
I believe that there are many over there, I have seen many helpful posts from several.
At least with this type of posting, one gets easily understood answers, (and thought provoking questions that make one think), combined with pics on-the-go.
Anyhow, gotta an aeroplane to catch.
Ooroo,
Shorty.
PS::: 50% of the Rog; & Shorty show. ;) ;D