Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: john martin on January 19, 2012, 09:20:13 pm
-
:)
Just seeing if you could put together a higher performance mostly van
mount portable for less than the cost of a top of the range portable .
As a target to beat , I pick the airflex storm which is 3400 + vat if you include the magma heater .
(For Water recovery) - The new Mytee flood hog . £1300 from woodbridge
This features the newer' lighthouse' motors as used in the M5 which would be a 3 grand machine if it was available here , these are high airwatt motors (650 airwatts) each and are
comparable in performance to the 6.6 , consider them on a par .Unusually for a machine primarily designed as a flood pumper ,mytee has opted for a parallel setup .
figures stated are conservative . Hog features recovery tank + 70gpm
auto pumpout , great if you hit some real flood work .
http://www.wcsuk.com/acatalog/Mytee_7000_Flood_Hog.html
(Water Pump )- Interpump boxjet portable unit ... adjustable up to 1000 psi ... 8lpm and 1500 watt motor.
Could also be used indoors just with the floodhog , connecting to the hot tap . £306
http://www.allpressuresprayersdirect.co.uk/box-jet-&-turbo-15-pressure-washer
(Heat) - lavor Hotbox diesel burner - up to 150c heat ... 300 watts
to run 1150 incl vat
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lavor-Volcano-HOT-BOX-Heat-Exchanger-Boiler-/350148297905
2600 spent so far and superior performance to the 3400 for Storm
... that leaves £700 for perhaps a van water tank £ 100 hose reel
, hose etc :)
-
Or even simpler the Zeta hot pressure washer 1000 plus vat
-
but that wouldn't be very original ;D
+ you can bring the pump/hog i mentioned indoors and use it CFX style .
The zeta draws more amps .
Zeta has a smaller diesel tank .
You can use the Hotbox with other portables pumps.
Hotbox goes hotter .
But zeta + floodhog would work real well too :)
-
I spent years 1000's of hour lots of money and never made anything that was romotely like a truckmount.
If I had put that effort into marketing it would have been a lot more constructive. The best thing that I ever did in this business was going truckmount. The most stupid thing that I have ever done is take so long in realising what a truckmount is capable. People on this forum have a habit of thinking that they underdstand what something they have never used or had any experince of actually does. If you ever put an airflex, jaguar or scorpion next to a truckmount for a day you would realise what totally different capabilities they have.
Peter
www.carpetcleanercardiff.com (http://www.carpetcleanercardiff.com)
-
What is the minimum PSI of the Lavor Hotbox?
The Zeta is around 400.....
-
I spent years 1000's of hour lots of money and never made anything that was romotely like a truckmount.
If I had put that effort into marketing it would have been a lot more constructive. The best thing that I ever did in this business was going truckmount. The most stupid thing that I have ever done is take so long in realising what a truckmount is capable. People on this forum have a habit of thinking that they underdstand what something they have never used or had any experince of actually does. If you ever put an airflex, jaguar or scorpion next to a truckmount for a day you would realise what totally different capabilities they have.
Peter
www.carpetcleanercardiff.com (http://www.carpetcleanercardiff.com)
Yes , i understand , no electric vac machine is going to touch TM performance , even if it comes close to TM figures , the working cfm/lift will not compete with a TM/blower under load , but lots of folk work successfully with electric gear too .
-
What is the minimum PSI of the Lavor Hotbox?
The Zeta is around 400.....
I dont know , i just spotted it browsing tonight :)
Could even be the same burner , it could depend on pump flow rate also .
I'll see if i can find out sometime ...
If it was for me it'd probably buy the burner for 400 or so and attach a jerrycan and diy a metal holder or sorts .
Did you guys ever look into adjusting or fitting a lower flow meter/ sensor or whatever .
-
Yes, Russ did. I've just left mine as is with no adverse affects.... (Touch wood ;D)
I was initially concerned that the psi would be too high, but it's perfect as it is.
I also use the Mytee Inline Heater when the Zeta can't be used, I'm impressed with it now that I've sussed out how to use it effectively...
-
A 12 ltr/min lavor hot box is £530 + vat from exchange engineering. The pressure does not matter as the boiler fires up on a flow switch, mine fires up on next to no flow as it has the spring removed. They go to 110 degrees on a thermostat
-
A 12 ltr/min lavor hot box is £530 + vat from exchange engineering. The pressure does not matter as the boiler fires up on a flow switch, mine fires up on next to no flow as it has the spring removed. They go to 110 degrees on a thermostat
Ah .... but i have a keen eye for a bargain
http://equip2clean.co.uk/pressure-washers/lavor/lavor-burner-boiler-unit-for-pressure-washers-medium.html
Great info there ! , if i get one that springs going :)
-
you could always go for the little giant water heater. I have one of these and they are very good http://www.little-giant.com/water-heating-products/carpet-cleaning/gas-carpet-cleaning.html
-
you could always go for the little giant water heater. I have one of these and they are very good http://www.little-giant.com/water-heating-products/carpet-cleaning/gas-carpet-cleaning.html
looks good , not too many in UK id say ..
and its strengthening Christians too :)
-
I have one fitted to my Steam Genie Sizzler truckmount. The water is upto 240degree F within 2 mins and a 19kg bottle of propane will last 28 hours at full heat. Parts are easy ordered and very easy to maintain. The one I have is 13 years old now and still performs like new.
-
I could list the problems with using a diesel burner to heat water inline for carpet cleaning and I would be here all day :-\
The worst is the slowness of the probe thermostat to turn off the unit when it reaches the required temp',
when you turn the heater on you can set the thermostat to 50degrees but it will hit 120degrees before the probe has time to kick in and turn off the unit, it will hold this temp' for about 3 mins then slowly return to the set temp.
This is A problem when you are cleaning heat sensitive items like dralon.
This will happen every time the burner kicks in unless you fit a secondary bypass and have a constant flow through the burner back into the fresh tank.
-
I don't use the Zeta when doing upholstery beacuse I only use <100psi.... So I guess it'll never be a problem for me, Mike.... ;)
-
Colin the Zeta heater coil is a lot smaller so should,nt have this problem, the big burners like John has listed is designed for 18lt/min flow rates which is 3~4 times higher than required for our needs....this is why there is a control problem...they are just too big
-
Colin the Zeta heater coil is a lot smaller so should,nt have this problem, the big burners like John has listed is designed for 18lt/min flow rates which is 3~4 times higher than required for our needs....this is why there is a control problem...they are just too big
The smallest of the lavors here might be more appropriate ?
http://equip2clean.co.uk/pressure-washers/lavor/lavor-burner-boiler-unit-for-pressure-washers-small.html
Could only see myself using it on some carpets , for upholstery I'm a low pressure spray out tool guy .
-
John that doesn't have a fuel tank, thermostat, flow switch , on/off switch control unit.... it just the coil & fan, its a bit like have a car engine and thinking you have a drivable car
-
Why not save yourself loads of time, hassle and money! you have two choices :
1 Truckmount
2 Portable
Lets look at the cheapest new truckmount...
The Prowler is one to consider and this is gonna cost you £6500 + VAT for a machine with 50' hoses, water tank and wand.
Or
The Jag £2600 + VAT... if you said £3000 + VAT im sure for that you would get 100' of hoses. 4 jet wand and possibly some other bits and pieces.
The Zeta £1000 + VAT
£4000 + VAT
Why over complicate things? there comes a point when you have to make a decision between the two options above, hand on heart if i had the work to justify the expense of a TM i would buy one.
Its all about getting the biggest "bang for your buck" and you need to get a return on your equipment sooner rather than later.
I can remove my jag from the van if its a job on the 10th floor, you try doing that with a TM!, for me its about flexibility and versatility.
When it comes to portable machines they have their limitations for instance a three vac model needs 2 electrical circuits and a third if you run an inline heater... pain in the ass!!
Colin and I both have the same set ups and we can both agree that for the type of work we do, the jag + Zeta is great.
John, PM me and i will send you links to vids of my setup
-
100% agree Russ , I would add in a powerhead such as 360i /RX20
Along with LM set up and you have the potential for more return % on investment than any other system.
Yes a TM will earn more actual ££ but how much will getting that work cost ,and how long will it take?
-
Why not save yourself loads of time, hassle and money! you have two choices :
1 Truckmount
2 Portable
Lets look at the cheapest new truckmount...
The Prowler is one to consider and this is gonna cost you £6500 + VAT for a machine with 50' hoses, water tank and wand.
Or
The Jag £2600 + VAT... if you said £3000 + VAT im sure for that you would get 100' of hoses. 4 jet wand and possibly some other bits and pieces.
The Zeta £1000 + VAT
£4000 + VAT
Why over complicate things? there comes a point when you have to make a decision between the two options above, hand on heart if i had the work to justify the expense of a TM i would buy one.
Its all about getting the biggest "bang for your buck" and you need to get a return on your equipment sooner rather than later.
I can remove my jag from the van if its a job on the 10th floor, you try doing that with a TM!, for me its about flexibility and versatility.
When it comes to portable machines they have their limitations for instance a three vac model needs 2 electrical circuits and a third if you run an inline heater... pain in the ass!!
Colin and I both have the same set ups and we can both agree that for the type of work we do, the jag + Zeta is great.
John, PM me and i will send you links to vids of my setup
The only thing im gone to agree with you about is the Prowler ... if
any one can afford it , just get the prowler !
You would still need a small porty for apts , hard to reach places .
There is no way i would ever part with money for a Jag , the standard
of engineering is below par for me .
Im also not a fan of the BS from CA in general ... for eg ... the
fact that the waste tank couldn't be engineered to empty fully via the
waste gate ,so its describe by CA on one of the American forums as
thus ( the waste remains in the bottom of the tank and acts as a
purifier when you bring it indoors to improve air quality ) . give me
a break , i would be ran out the door so fast from the hotels i do if
i brought that thing indoors and switched it on with its rancid '
purifier ' .( I have used a scorpion so i know what im talking about
) And i dont like the way they deceived many buyers by posting the
performance figures in a misleading way leading them to believe the
jag had double the lift of other machines or even their own scorpion .
Also look at the numbers , for the 3000 you'd spend on the 'Jag'
you could have the following
Floodhog in van - 1300
portable pump - 300
inline heater - 400
water tank - 100
The 900 left over i could either buy the airhog booster featuring
another ' lighthouse' motor , by now i have a three vac high
performance system ( 144" lift 370 cfm ) and i have heat ! or i
would put the left over money towards a small portable you could
actually bring upstairs easily for apartments etc life the alltec
express . bet you wouldn't be so keen to haul the jag up 10 flights if
the lift was out .
Apart from that ... im gonna disagree with you that you always need
two circuits for three vacs ..
Have seen you excellent vids btw . :)
-
You are of course entitled to your opinion about the Jag, even though you've probably never used one. You mentioned you'd used the Scorpion which is unquestionably the best selling triple vac and the most difficult machine to find for sale, second hand. It is a different machine altogether, yet still a serious contender to the Jag.
You'll find that those who swear by them are well known, successful and well respected carpet cleaners, surely that tells you something...
You on the other hand, are an absolute mystery. You even lurk as a guest on other forums which is pretty unusual for a carpet cleaner, even your web link doesn't work... ???
For all we know, you could be a supplier yourself who is scared of the competition, you have every right to be... OR...you could even be playing devil's advocate... ;D
-
Interesting reply John... ???
You started a thread to see if you could beat your target of an Airflex storm and a magma heater... priced at £3400
One fundamental flaw in your choice of water recovery machine is that is only extracts and offers no solution tank, solution pump and no extraction tank... £1282.35 + VAT for something that sucks water in one end and throws it out the other!
You would be relying on your boxjet to supply the water pressure? better hope your customer has an outside tap because if you have ever tried a tap adaptor on a domestic bathroom tap.. 9/10 times they leak flooding the whole area especially if you are running a pressure washer.
Also forget feeding it hot water from a tap... it will drain your customers hot water tank quicker than you would imagine and your customers is not going to be pleased!
And the lavor hot box... yes these work just fine but £1150 is expensive and just look at the size of the foot print!
The whole purpose of machines like the storm and the jag is that they offer the end user enhanced power and higher efficiency compared to most other triple vac portables, allowing the operator to leave them on the vehicle much the same way as a TM.
I admire people who have the ability to think outside the box, however you cant expect a portable to behave like a TM because they are two very different machines.
I think you should just buy the Airflex storm and magma heater as this was your target and by the sounds of things you are not a fan of the Jag... saying that you could give your idea a blast and it may work out well for you.
-
Interesting reply John... ???
You started a thread to see if you could beat your target of an Airflex storm and a magma heater... priced at £3400
One fundamental flaw in your choice of water recovery machine is that is only extracts and offers no solution tank, solution pump and no extraction tank... £1282.35 + VAT for something that sucks water in one end and throws it out the other!
When you use the jag in Van mount mode ... it sucks in one way and throws it out the other also ... But the jag costs 3000 and doesn't through out as fast ... the hog can handle flood work also :)
You would be relying on your boxjet to supply the water pressure? better hope your customer has an outside tap because if you have ever tried a tap adaptor on a domestic bathroom tap.. 9/10 times they leak flooding the whole area especially if you are running a pressure washer.
Also forget feeding it hot water from a tap... it will drain your customers hot water tank quicker than you would imagine and your customers is not going to be pleased!
Boxjet would be mainly part of the Van mount system , fed from the onboard tank .
For indoor work i have a backup machine with the money i saved on the Jag ;D
But if need be you could bring the Hog and Boxjet into say a rental and use them fed from the tap like a CFX . Im aware of the tap issue and the many varieties of tap out there so i wouldn't rely on it working , but it may work out in some places .
And the lavor hot box... yes these work just fine but £1150 is expensive and just look at the size of the foot print!
Includes VAT so its the same price as the zeta ? and you can use it with a variety of machines . I do like the zeta though ... zeta + floodhog + airhog would have real performance for the price of a storm .
The whole purpose of machines like the storm and the jag is that they offer the end user enhanced power and higher efficiency compared to most other triple vac portables, allowing the operator to leave them on the vehicle much the same way as a TM.
I admire people who have the ability to think outside the box, however you cant expect a portable to behave like a TM because they are two very different machines.
Contradicting yourself up there a bit , there are advantages to van mount even if you don't have TM performance . Anyone whos used a Bane will usually tell you how convient its use is , even though it would hardly have the power of a High performance twin or triple vac . On most jobs 50 -70 ft from van works for me .
I think you should just buy the Airflex storm and magma heater as this was your target and by the sounds of things you are not a fan of the Jag... saying that you could give your idea a blast and it may work out well for you.
This is all hypothetical , i am not buying either machine :)
Anything new i get will made by myself and chances are it will have more than three vacs :) Both the Jag and storm are too expensive for what you get imho ...
i would prefer to have a dedicated performance van mount and a separate smaller ' go anywhere ' twinvac backup . Neither machine tic both boxes for me .
-
Well good luck John and happy carpet cleaning my friend ;)
-
This is all hypothetical , i am not buying either machine :)
Anything new i get will made by myself and chances are it will have more than three vacs :)
It's already been done before, seems it never took off.... ;)
-
This is all hypothetical , i am not buying either machine :)
Anything new i get will made by myself and chances are it will have more than three vacs :)
It's already been done before, seems it never took off.... ;)
There are a variety of reasons why its not successful commercially ...
I believe alltec had one back in the day , and still some semi custom examples available in the states ... eg
http://morecfm.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=34&products_id=291
Squeezing four vacs into a production portable is not something id fancy , more so a van mount recovery unit which when space/weight is not a limiting factor , is really childsplay to build .
Im not saying four vacs are even necessary , id be happy with three 6.6( or lighthouse 5.7) in parallel or ideally three/four 8.4 which have about 150" lift 160 cfm and actually draw a couple of amps less than the 6.6 ... pity they cost 300usd each !
So its tempting to just use four of these genuine £55 ameteks ... cheap , easily replaced .
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ametek-Premium-3-Stage-Tangential-Discharge-Motor-5-7-240V-1500W-/180765040975?pt=UK_Vacuum_Cleaner_Bags_Parts&hash=item2a166fa14f
Four in series/parallel gives you 200" lift and 200cfm
Four in parallel gives 130 "lift and 400 cfm
all for less than the cost of one 8.4 or two 6.6
Recovery unit would be configurable to run either 2 , 3 , or 4 vacs in parallel or 2 in series 4 in series / parellel .... could never 'break down ' if a vac goes . :)
-
£55 for a new Ametek ???
Are alarm bells not ringing ???
I'd make sure you have plenty of spares ;D
Seriously though, I think you are over-complicating things.
If it's power you want, more than that a Jag can offer, then you'd be wiser buying an entry level TM.....
-
£55 for a new Ametek ???
Are alarm bells not ringing ???
I'd make sure you have plenty of spares ;D
Seriously though, I think you are over-complicating things.
If it's power you want, more than that a Jag can offer, then you'd be wiser buying an entry level TM.....
£55 is good money if its production costs are low ...
Even your 6.6 is made in Mexico for a few peso ... and dont pay a premium for a lamb ametek , they are one and the same company .
I think modularity will be big in the future , interchangeable vac units , tank bodies ,water and heat units . You can see Mytee moving in that direction already .
Why settle for less , the likes of the jag is optimized for the 120 volt environment ,
If they or other american companies , including Mytee were based in a 230v zone ,i have no doubt the machines would be very different .
Innovation seems to be lost though on the indigenous brands , alltec at least uses max amps per cord , but nothing too exciting from it , and extracta proudly state on their site that they forge some components from molten metal , yet they cant seem to forge a new idea in 20 years :-X
-
When it comes to portable machines they have their limitations for instance a three vac model needs 2 electrical circuits and a third if you run an inline heater... pain in the ass!!
It's strange I read this alot, but I have plugged in my Airflex Turbo into a double socket (hallway or lounge) and inline heater into lounge and do this on nearly every job (that could do with the heat) with no problems. The only problem I had was when using an extension cable from a wall (1 meter) and plugging into that instead of the wall. That ended up blowing the fuse in the extension.
-
£55 for a new Ametek ???
Are alarm bells not ringing ???
I'd make sure you have plenty of spares ;D
Seriously though, I think you are over-complicating things.
If it's power you want, more than that a Jag can offer, then you'd be wiser buying an entry level TM.....
£55 is good money if its production costs are low ...
Even your 6.6 is made in Mexico for a few peso ... and dont pay a premium for a lamb ametek , they are one and the same company .
I think modularity will be big in the future , interchangeable vac units , tank bodies ,water and heat units . You can see Mytee moving in that direction already .
Why settle for less , the likes of the jag is optimized for the 120 volt environment ,
If they or other american companies , including Mytee were based in a 230v zone ,i have no doubt the machines would be very different .
Innovation seems to be lost though on the indigenous brands , alltec at least uses max amps per cord , but nothing too exciting from it , and extracta proudly state on their site that they forge some components from molten metal , yet they cant seem to forge a new idea in 20 years :-X
I fitted one of these £55 motors to a machine tonight for a friend... We'll see how it goes I suppose... :)
-
When it comes to portable machines they have their limitations for instance a three vac model needs 2 electrical circuits and a third if you run an inline heater... pain in the ass!!
It's strange I read this alot, but I have plugged in my Airflex Turbo into a double socket (hallway or lounge) and inline heater into lounge and do this on nearly every job (that could do with the heat) with no problems. The only problem I had was when using an extension cable from a wall (1 meter) and plugging into that instead of the wall. That ended up blowing the fuse in the extension.
yes , i never go circuit hunting either .. the poor electrically disadvantaged Americans have to do it all the time ... today , a typical job , suite ... i had a twinvac + 3000w heater and three blowers plugged into the same room ...
amp wise ... that would = a quadvac + inline heater :)
I do avoid customers little white extension leads ... thin wire , pain if you have to replace fuse ... extension leads , and machine leads should be 2.5mm ... i check plugs occasionally for oxidation , frayed connections .
-
[/quote]
I fitted one of these £55 motors to a machine tonight for a friend... We'll see how it goes I suppose... :)
[/quote]
Hope there was no Chinese writing under the Ametek sticker :)
nah , i have a few here ... they look good .
-
extension leads , and machine leads should be 2.5mm ... i check plugs occasionally for oxidation , frayed connections .
Good tip about the wire thickness John. Didn't know that :)