Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Phil @ Extreme Clean on January 19, 2012, 11:34:08 am
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Well Guy's according to Dry Fusion it's safe on all carpet's and for the 3 years iv'e used it never had a problem until today. I cleaned a tight looped pile carpet the other day and when i finished it looked bobbly which i thought was just raising the pile anyway i got a call today that the carpet is damaged so i went to look and it honestly looks a mess compared to the bedroom which wasn't done and is the same carpet. I tried hoovering to see if made any difference but it hasn't when i look closely the loops have been pulled up slightly and loosened. Iv'e phoned dry fusion and they are getting Shaun to come have a look next week but could anyone give me any advice to why this has happened and how to avoid in the future this has really knocked me back and i'm really worried now.
Best regards.
Phil.
Extreme Clean
Carpets to DRY For!!!!!!!!
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Dont lose sleep Phil, we have all had a problems at some point, as long as you let the customer know you are doing your best to rectify the problem and shaun will confirm whether there is a problem or not.
If the worse comes to the worse then thats why we have public liability and treatment risk insurance.
Cant give you any advice at the moment but always worth taking photos then we could look at them.
In future if you are in any doubt a problem might arise best to walk away or discuss with customer the foreseen problems. I resonally wouldnt use dry fusion on a berbeer (is that how you spell it) so im not convinced dry fusion can be used on ALL carpets
regards Bob
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thanks for the info i have a pic but it says too large to upload any ideas how to show.
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Phil, send me the pic ashley@floors2show.co.uk and i'll put it on here for you.
As Bob said, no point stressing about it yet (easier said than done!), if you become distracted by it there's more chance of you cocking something up - "Worrying is like paying interest on a debt that may never come due"
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i'l send now Ash and the reason i'm worried is because i only use dry fusion and iv'e done these carpet's before and no problem now i'm worried if i go to a job and it's the same do i turn it down ???
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i would guess not enough lubrication on this specific job, maybe underfloor heating or sprayer blocked so not putting as much prespray down. something along them lines, speculative guess though so don't quote me.
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Hi derek definately not that mate the prespray was more than enough and the pad was moist see pics in a moment when Ash uploads them for me.
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Pics are on the way, just upoading them now. For future reference, you might want to turn the resolution down on the camera, the files are huge (over 5mb each!)
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(http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc513/ashwhite1/pic1.jpg)
(http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc513/ashwhite1/pic2.jpg)
(http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc513/ashwhite1/pic3.jpg)
Phil, explain what is what :)
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I think the pads have lifted some of the loops , not all , making the carpet not uniform in appearance .
Some of the fibres have broken away from the loops due to the aggression of the pad
I use my rug rake after bonnetting this type of carpet.
With some usage I think it will look ok.
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ins jobby I'm afraid :(
Pay your excess, apologise and leave in the hands of insurance and don't lose any sleep over it.
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cheers for advice what should i do if i come to do a carpet like this again??? say i can't do it or do something different? like i say iv'e done these before without a problem.
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Phil you sure it was not like that before you cleaned it ???Just a thought
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no mate the 3rd pic is of the bedroom which i didn't clean and when i compare the 2 it's looks really bad i'm devo'd never had a prob before now.
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We had a carpet like that which we had replaced twice because the brush bar on our hoover fluffed it up, which it shouldn't have done. Eventually we ended up with a twist pile.
I never agitate berber carpets for this very reason.
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Hi Phil,
Don't panic. Arrangements are being made for me to inspect the carpet and we can take it from there. In 3 years you have never had a problem with this type or indeed any other type of carpet, so we need to inspect the carpet and then review your cleaning procedure.
Give me a call if you want to discuss further.
Kind regards,
Shaun Bradbury
Dry Fusion UK
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Looks like it has been cleaned with something quite agressive, did you use something to agitate it with before bonnetting it?
Simon
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Was just a thought phill with being like that before.
As shaun said in his post dont worry too much and dont let it put you off in the future mate.
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The Hofman hand held carpet shearer will sort that out no problem and quickly, no need for insurance claims.
No doubt Dry Fusion can help out with this, I am sure they would have one or know where one can be hired,
Just make sure you practice with it first on some old off cuts. ;)
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Phil,
Shaun will sort you out.
I've had my DF system for nine years and never had a problem with Berber. Like the others, I'm wondering if it is a pre existing condition.
The bedroom would have much less foot traffic than the downstairs rooms so would show less wear and tear anyway.
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Phil,
Shaun will sort you out.
I've had my DF system for nine years and never had a problem with Berber. Like the others, I'm wondering if it is a pre existing condition.
The bedroom would have much less foot traffic than the downstairs rooms so would show less wear and tear anyway.
With ours, it was the carpet that wasn't fit for purpose.
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I think this is a very good example of why one sole cleaning system cannot cover all likely scenarios in carpet cleaning.
I wouldn't go near a carpet like that with a bonnet pad, especially with the speed of a dry fusion machine.
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shaun bradbury
Really good to see you coming on the forum and helping fill with his problem
phil
As clinton says are you sure it was not like that before you cleaned seen quite a few like that before Ive started
will need to take more pics before I start just in case
Jim
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Hi Phil,
Don't panic. Arrangements are being made for me to inspect the carpet and we can take it from there. In 3 years you have never had a problem with this type or indeed any other type of carpet, so we need to inspect the carpet and then review your cleaning procedure.
Give me a call if you want to discuss further.
Kind regards,
Shaun Bradbury
Dry Fusion UK
thanks Shaun i haven't done anything different presprayed, dipped pad and didnt even stay on the carpet to long so it wasn't to dry. I'l speak to you next week on the job mate and thankyou Shaun i appreciate your assistance.
Cheers Phil
Extreme Clean
Carpet's to DRY For!!!
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Looks like it has been cleaned with something quite agressive, did you use something to agitate it with before bonnetting it?
Simon
Just prespray with activator no agitation then dipped dry fusion pad in activator rung out and cleaned as normal nothing aggressive i do have a sebo duo but didnt use on this cause of the tight pile.
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Phil
When you say (according to Dry Fusion it's safe on all carpet's) are you referring cleaning agent or machine? Woolsafe don’t/wont endorse any machines if that help ???, have also seen the same prior to cleaning did it have some type plastic runner (looks like it did)
I’m with Shaun (and then review your cleaning procedure) ;) ;D
I actually like the system on commercial.
Jim
ServiceMaster ;) and agree DF dose seem to be a bit fast ???
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Phil,
Shaun will sort you out.
I've had my DF system for nine years and never had a problem with Berber. Like the others, I'm wondering if it is a pre existing condition.
The bedroom would have much less foot traffic than the downstairs rooms so would show less wear and tear anyway.
All i can say is that it didn't look bad when i started and it clearly stands out now its really bad i would of noticed if it was like it before and i can't tell the customer oh it's not my fault it's the carpet cause it clearly wasn't like that at the start.
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I never agitate berber carpets for this very reason.
It comes with the instructions for this type of carpet.
Only flat head vacuums should be used, so that rules out your sebos, dysons, rotary machines etc.
It's a Henry and HWE with a wand method of clean if you want to take any possible damage out of the equation. That doesn't mean that you couldn't use rotary type machines but the chances of problems do increase.
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soon as i can afford to buy a hwe machine i will then i have options.
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But this is a job you shouldn't have taken on then.
Sorry to be blunt but knowledge is key and you should have known vacuum cleaners with beater brushes are not recommended by the manufacturers for regular standard cleaning by the owners and therefore it stands to reason that you shouldn't use a rotary on it either to clean it.
Now, if it was imperitive to the customer for fast drying then you should inform the customer that using a rotary will be quick drying but that there is the chance of possible damage..... then let them decide.
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Neil i wouldn't turn the job down when iv'e done them before without problem i'l listen to what Shaun has to say when we meet next week he's the main man were DF is concerned he'll advise me on what to do in the future i'm pretty sure a lot of DF users have done these carpet's without problem.
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I never agitate berber carpets for this very reason.
It comes with the instructions for this type of carpet.
Only flat head vacuums should be used, so that rules out your sebos, dysons, rotary machines etc.
It's a Henry and HWE with a wand method of clean if you want to take any possible damage out of the equation. That doesn't mean that you couldn't use rotary type machines but the chances of problems do increase.
Oh well, the carpet shop still supplied us with carpets until we got a carpet that was suitable for our hoover.... ;D ;D ;D
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I've used the DF system for nearly eight years now and never had a problem with berber.
As others have said, it could be that there was a problem with the carpet to start with.
The only other thing I can think of is that one of the pads picked something off of the carpet which then had an abrasive effect (it sounds unlikely, but I found a pin in one of my pads once and that's despite pre-vaccing) !
Kingsley
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Not that kingsley because i done 3 separate rooms and used clean pad on all of them.
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Personally, I would not use a rotary on this type of carpet, ever.
But that's me playing safe. Hope you get it sorted ok.
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Personally, I would not use a rotary on this type of carpet, ever.
But that's me playing safe. Hope you get it sorted ok.
I would .... and do........
I don't however use the shampoo brush ...... ;D
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Me too Hector i don't even own shampoo brush lol thats why i'm so gutted, this is a 1 off never happened before ??? ??? ???
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It will probably never happen again.
Shaun will help you with this one though, just don't let it put you off the system. It works and is good.....
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Never had a problem with my buffer l m systems with this type of carpet over the years and that texatherm and dry fusion.
I think some of that tuging apperance might have been there already phil..Its good to hear shaun will have a look and give his opinion too..
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(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1327085696_bad day.jpg)
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Hi Phil,
Do they have a cat or has anyone else that lived there had a cat previously? Have you noticed any more evidence of plucking? In the first picture it looks like the carpet near to the left door frame has cat pluck marks. If they do cats stretch and pluck at random across carpets so perhaps they have caused the loosening of loops, your cleaning method has just made them stand out. I agree with Jason L that it will flatten out with use and become un-noticable after a few days as it will have done gradually after cat plucking.
All the best,
Jason.
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Pad a bit too dry id say .
hands and knees with some sort of shears i suppose :)
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Phil, doubt very much if you have really caused the damage...
However when Shaun comes down and assesses the way you clean,do yourself a big big favour........
Show him how you clean .......... not how you think he wants to see you clean ....
If you get my drift..
;D ;D
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Have fitted and repaired many a berber and have lost count of the times I have said to people that if you agitate to much it will cause the loop to break down on the carpet ,especially if it is wool .Most carpets that are decent are usually 80/20 in favour of wool content ,but with berbers is it not uncommon to have 100% wool .They are very hardwearing carpets and are a pig to fit and repair as they are very dense and stiff but any hard friction on the loop can cause damage .I have seen damage caused to a berber by a fitter just running his edging tool over the pile to much.The polyprop type berber carpets are not a problem as long as you dont catch a thread ,but the wool are should be treated with respect .
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PS If you run a carpet shearer over a loop pile carpet it will cut the loop and damage the carpet even more .
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PS If you run a carpet shearer over a loop pile carpet it will cut the loop and damage the carpet even more .
P S....no it wont
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If the loop on the berber has been damaged by the aggitation and is above the rest of the pile then it will be damaged by the carpet shearer ,if the carpet loop has just been (for want of a better word) frizzed up then it wont .Going by the look of the pics it seems the loop has been pulled up all over the carpet therefore weakening its ability to stay in the backing .
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Well thats not what you said in your first post above, thanks for the clarification.
I would shear this carpet based on pictures supplied.
Have you ever used a set of shears on a loop pile.?..
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Looks defo like wool to me. I don't think it is damaged, just that the pile is unevenly lifted and will flatten again with use.
Dave.
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The problem you are more likely to get is a felting effect and that's not what's going on here. It's a classic example of people looking more closely on something they have been living with a long time.
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That is exactly what I said in my first post ,any hard friction will break the pile down and damage it .Carpets do frizz up and they can be sheared ,but as can be clearly seen this is not the case and the loops that are damaged are raised above the rest so therefore running a carpet shearer over it would cut into the raised loops and they would be loops no more .The pile as Dave lee has pointed out is uneven and imo could be caused by severe aggitation pulling at the loop therefore stretching it or pulling it from the backing .
This is my opinion Hilton if you dont agree which you clearly dont fine, thats what a forum is about .
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Hard friction like walking and moving furniture?
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The loops in the bedroom where you haven't cleaned look very compressed through traffic so if there was any damage prior to cleaning you would not have noticed .I would go and check out the uncleaned carpet again for any clues.
Mark
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WELL GUYS I HAVE BEEN CLEANING CARPETS FOR 3 YEARS,
3 YEARS MAKEING THOUSANDS OF POUNDS , COMPLETE SUPPORT FROM DRY FUSION,AND YOU KNOCK THEM BACK, YOU COULD HAVE SORTED THE PROBLEM IN A QUIETER MORE PROFESSIONAL WAY SO THAT YOU , YOUR CUSTOMER, AND YOUR SUPPLIER, COULD RESOLVE IT.
I WISH YOU MANY MANY MORE YEARS OF SAFE CARPET CLEANING AND PROFIT , MIGHT NOT BE YOUR FAULT, PERSONALY DONT THINK IT IS , IF AND A BIG IF YOU DO GET SOME SORT OF LITTLE MISSHAP TRY THE QUIET APPROACH FIRST INSTEAD OF TELLING EVERYONE THAT ACCORDING TO '
REGARDS
STEPHEN CALLINAN
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WELL GUYS I HAVE BEEN CLEANING CARPETS FOR 3 YEARS,
3 YEARS MAKEING THOUSANDS OF POUNDS , COMPLETE SUPPORT FROM DRY FUSION,AND YOU KNOCK THEM BACK, YOU COULD HAVE SORTED THE PROBLEM IN A QUIETER MORE PROFESSIONAL WAY SO THAT YOU , YOUR CUSTOMER, AND YOUR SUPPLIER, COULD RESOLVE IT.
I WISH YOU MANY MANY MORE YEARS OF SAFE CARPET CLEANING AND PROFIT , MIGHT NOT BE YOUR FAULT, PERSONALY DONT THINK IT IS , IF AND A BIG IF YOU DO GET SOME SORT OF LITTLE MISSHAP TRY THE QUIET APPROACH FIRST INSTEAD OF TELLING EVERYONE THAT ACCORDING TO '
REGARDS
STEPHEN CALLINAN
You may wan't to turn that caps lock off before you post any more. It's hard on the eyes and it's not nice to read. ;)
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STOP SHOUTING...... Thank you.... :)
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Someone knows how to make an entrance..
Stephen, I have no experience whatsoever with Dry Fusion, but I wouldn't let Phils experience or posts on here put me off. I don't think he's made any negative remarks about the system - In fact he's been quite positive about the Dry Fusion method, he's only concerned about his technique.
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WELL GUYS I HAVE BEEN CLEANING CARPETS FOR 3 YEARS,
3 YEARS MAKEING THOUSANDS OF POUNDS , COMPLETE SUPPORT FROM DRY FUSION,AND YOU KNOCK THEM BACK, YOU COULD HAVE SORTED THE PROBLEM IN A QUIETER MORE PROFESSIONAL WAY SO THAT YOU , YOUR CUSTOMER, AND YOUR SUPPLIER, COULD RESOLVE IT.
I WISH YOU MANY MANY MORE YEARS OF SAFE CARPET CLEANING AND PROFIT , MIGHT NOT BE YOUR FAULT, PERSONALY DONT THINK IT IS , IF AND A BIG IF YOU DO GET SOME SORT OF LITTLE MISSHAP TRY THE QUIET APPROACH FIRST INSTEAD OF TELLING EVERYONE THAT ACCORDING TO '
REGARDS
STEPHEN CALLINAN
Listen i'm here asking advice and i haven't slated DRY FUSION i think it poop hot i just said about what had happened for help and i cleaned this carpet exactly the same as i have cleaned every other carpet and to be told it's safe on all carpets then this happens there's nothing wrong with my technique i clean just as i was shown and have for 3 years with no probs and as for making thousands lucky you cause i struggle, and maybe thats why you get all the support cause of how much your spending >:(
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OH AND IF YOU WAS TO TAKE THE TIME TO LOOK INTO OTHER TOPICS I WROTE YOU MITE FIND I HAVE NOTHING BUT GOOD THINGS TO SAY ABOUT DRY FUSION I WOULDNT GET RID FOR ANYTHING ;D
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SPEAK UP.. I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!!!
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I love the Dry Fusion system but you can't clean all types of carpet on it - sisal/seagrass is impossible and it would be downright dangerous to try it (then again you can't HWE them either).
In theory you can use DF to clean Flotex but it's a pain and I personally don't even bother.
But those types of carpet surely represent much less than 5% of the total carpets out there.
Berber shouldn't be a problem at all - a soft woollen pad, which is lubricated by the DF prespray, is nowhere near as abrasive as people walking across the carpet or dragging furniture across it etc.
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ANY ONE GOT ANY CHEESE
TO GO WITH THAT WINE YOUR HAVEING XX
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(http://cache.ohinternet.com/images/thumb/f/f5/CapsLock.jpg/618px-CapsLock.jpg)
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ANY ONE GOT ANY CHEESE
TO GO WITH THAT WINE YOUR HAVEING XX
HAVEING or having ;D
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Would love to know whats Shaun's finding were..........Big thanks
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I would concur with a number of experienced posters on this thread having just completed a four storey town house with what looks like an identical carpet. Much as my stair extraction technique has improved I still undercharged big time for that job after all those treads and risers. Still, you live and learn.
To the OP: The pile on the carpet you didn't work on has been flattened through normal use. The bonneting of the DF machine has merely raised the pile on a number of the loops which, in all likelihood, have been lifted or pulled at some point in the carpet's life and would return to flat after a short period of normal use.
Re. Mr Callinan's posts, I can't see any criticism of DF anywhere by the OP. He came asking for advice, which he received, some of which was from DF themselves. If someone were to take the time and read the OP's posts you can see that he enjoys and has had considerable success in using the system.
Just a few thoughts.
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Have you tried one of those concrete rollers the ones they use to flatten lawn............only a thought!! ;D
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I have used my sebo on these and i thought it was the best vacuum to use on these loop pile carpets as they trap the dirt more, in fact i can remember reading that these type of carpets should be "vacced to death" as part of a thorough clean ???
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Ive cleaned a few berbers and they are hard wearing carpets but very delicate at the same time. this is going to sound ridiculous but when cleaning berbers I use a microsplitter and a soft bristled hand brush.
then its a case of getting down on your hands and knees and gently agitating the carpet by hand. I know it doesnt look great but my sebo duo nearly killed one of these the first time I did it (luckily I tested on a spare bit first) and ever since i charge accordingly.
I tell the customers that it has to be done by hand and it will take longer. Extract with hot water and the results are pretty good.
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Have you tried one of those concrete rollers the ones they use to flatten lawn............only a thought!! ;D
Why not use a plastic one filled with water, guaranteed no damage ;)
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your right, didnt think of that ;D
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Would love to know whats Shaun's finding were..........Big thanks
it won't be till next week the customer is away till then i'l let everyone know what the man in know says.
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I would concur with a number of experienced posters on this thread having just completed a four storey town house with what looks like an identical carpet. Much as my stair extraction technique has improved I still undercharged big time for that job after all those treads and risers. Still, you live and learn.
To the OP: The pile on the carpet you didn't work on has been flattened through normal use. The bonneting of the DF machine has merely raised the pile on a number of the loops which, in all likelihood, have been lifted or pulled at some point in the carpet's life and would return to flat after a short period of normal use.
Re. Mr Callinan's posts, I can't see any criticism of DF anywhere by the OP. He came asking for advice, which he received, some of which was from DF themselves. If someone were to take the time and read the OP's posts you can see that he enjoys and has had considerable success in using the system.
Just a few thoughts.
Thankyou Chris ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Why not use a plastic one filled with water, guaranteed no damage
... until the stopper comes loose, then you've got a flood extraction job on your hands!!!
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If you have done the same job as you always do then there's no point worrying worry. Do you think it can be rectified by using hot steam say from a powerful truck mount or has the pile actually untwisted? From the photo it looks like some of the pile has risen and some not.
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Phil
Any feed back from Shaun re visit
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Not been yet Len the customer has been away but they rang me yesterday asking if someone was going cause it's a mess so i phoned DF and Shaun is Coming Monday after dinner so i will let you know his view but personally i think i will have to replace even if he thinks its the carpet, it still wasn't like that before i started so no getting out of it :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[
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Have you tried one of those concrete rollers the ones they use to flatten lawn............only a thought!! ;D
hi
that really made me laugh, i have visions of one of those massive rollers for cricket pitches they pull with tractors in the custies lounge ;D
I would nt worry, it will either be fixed or replaced on insurance no biggie either way really.
john
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Have you tried one of those concrete rollers the ones they use to flatten lawn............only a thought!! ;D
hi
that really made me laugh, i have visions of one of those massive rollers for cricket pitches they pull with tractors in the custies lounge ;D
I would nt worry, it will either be fixed or replaced on insurance no biggie either way really.
john
£500 excess could be considered a biggie!
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yep when i don't have any money comin in :'( :'( :'(
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You are not liable for the whole cost of the carpet, if this went to court, you (if proven to be your fault) would have to pay for the cost of the carpet minus depreciation. Ie if the carpet is 4-5yrs old the value would be approx; 50% of that amount.
It will be even less if older, which is fair when you think of it, why should you replace an old carpet with a new one. If your insurance company gets involved they will cost the same way, which will probaly be a lot less than your £500.0 excess.
Just something for you to think about, perhaps you should mention this to your customer and come to a financial agreement if all else fails.
Regards.
Tom.
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Did Shaun give his verdict???
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You are not liable for the whole cost of the carpet, if this went to court, you (if proven to be your fault) would have to pay for the cost of the carpet minus depreciation. Ie if the carpet is 4-5yrs old the value would be approx; 50% of that amount.
It will be even less if older, which is fair when you think of it, why should you replace an old carpet with a new one. If your insurance company gets involved they will cost the same way, which will probaly be a lot less than your £500.0 excess.
Just something for you to think about, perhaps you should mention this to your customer and come to a financial agreement if all else fails.
Regards.
Tom.
Tom,
That is a popular fallacy but is miles away from reality. If a situation like this goes 'legal' and trying to say, ' I ruined your carpet but I'm only going to pay for half a new one,' is one sure fire way of making that happen,so you could end up replacing the carpet and having to pay your and customers legal costs. Better just to pay for the new carpet and save a lot of money.
Simon
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Simon, on the number of occasions that I have had to give evidence in small claims court cases, the judgements have all been the same. All the judges have taken the depreciation into consideration, nobody has been given the cost of a new item, (unless less than 12 months old.
Regards.
Tom.
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Tom,
I accept that, (to a degree) however if the case is at court there is every chance you will end up paying both your own and the Plaintiff's legal and court costs and if not that at least your own, which may well be a good deal more than you've saved having allowed the matter to go to litigation.
My son is a Commercial Litigation Lawyer and his firm charge out his services at £125.00 per hour ;D
There is also a matter of honour, or professionalism to be considered here. If you wreck some one's furnishings you should stump up the cost of replacing them.
Simon
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So has Shaun been out to give you his verdict....yet?
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£125 per hour!!!!!! I wouldn't behaving that Simon!!!!! >:(
He's nearly on the same hourly rate as you!!!!!!!!!!
;D ;D ;D
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That carpet looks to me as it had a fault before you started, although not a fan of DF and would not normally agitate a Berber (unless it's a man-made commercial tile) giving a good vac is a must and light adgitation should not pull the loops out. :)
Sounds more like a cat to me.... ;)
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Did Shaun give his verdict???
Shaun gave his verdict yes and said it was the carpet and nothing i done could of damaged it and i couldn't of forseen what happened. Sean was excellent in giving his opinion to me and the customer and i'm more than happy with the outcome. The customer was impressed with Seans Knowledge as was I and it's a learning curve. All in all a good result i only have to pay the custy back what i charged so i'm happy and Dry fusion were great OH AND JUST TO CLARIFY NOT SLATED DF ONCE with my MEGAFONEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!! haha. ;D ;D ;D
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:)Good result well handled
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So it was the carpets fault, not your choice of system.
Ok
Fine, so how will you clean the next berber you come across?
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With respec, as they say on here, what else was he gonna say?
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With respec Wynne, I would hope that where there is obvious operator blame, the (albeit partial) inspector would say it how it is, a resolution suitable to all could be found and everyone could move on, a little bit wiser and in the operator's case, a little bit poorer. I don't know Sean. Do you?
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Well if the OP damaged the carpet , then I have damaged every berber I have ever cleaned !
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I dont know Shaun and dont use the DF system but cant help thinking that he would have been committing commercial suicide by admitting it was a problem with the system. I expected him to say it was the carpets fault. You were lucky that you didn't have to pay towards a new carpet or all the cost even.
I also think that you handled the case well so a good result for you.