Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: KJG on December 16, 2005, 03:01:54 am
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Yes, water fed pole is without question a great tool, but what about work where it can't be used? It may be all fab on the domestic front but on the industrial/commercial scene, it ain't.
In town centres, there are lots of buildings where there are shops on the ground with offices above. These shops don't want water gushing on/in to their neon signs, stands or entrances etc.
What about work where water on the floor is a health & Safety style "fate worse than death" because of the slipping lawyers 4 U brigade? We have a lot of blocks where wfp is not allowed because of public footpaths on one or more sides. You can't sue the rain but you can sue our clients or us!
Also, it can never do insides, which nearly all commercial jobs have done. It's not very good on initial or traffic caked 6+ monthly cleans. It's a waste of time on crappy old, dusting paintwork, fried on bird poo and just certain types of glass and glass in certain locations.
Ladders will always be needed, trad will always be needed and "real" trad (ammo-swab, leather and scrim 8)) will always be needed.
Personally, I like a good work out on the ladders now and then. Maybe those who keep falling off the bloody things should try a different profession instead of "John Prescotting" us real window cleaners who are skilled in and embrace ALL methods.
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kjg
i agree with you on traditional methods are there to be used still, used right within h&s & w@h regs
Most of our work is office blocks which get internal cleaned on each visit. So people still need to be trained up, trained in ladders & w@h.
i enjoy doing traditional its a break from all the mauling with poles, but i would not go back to ladders, have invested in 3 vans & feel this was a great invention which we took on board 3 years ago & have not looked back since.
Just priced up job with nearly £400 traditional work every month good job but i dont think they realise just how much, tried saying some areas dont need so frequent, we could monitor them cleaning periodically.
But if its what they want, probably not get it, bound to be somebody to quote half that to get it.
Gary
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Hi KJG you have succinctly made a statement for the trad window cleaner, obiously you do not want any help and are happy to go your own way. So you are not therefore looking for a reply or any help (which is one reason why I am here- to give something back.)
I genuinely hope you do not become one of the statistics in 2006.
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fanatical anti-ladder knockers.
thats a bit strong init
though you wouldnt get me on ladder again, no way (saying that, i do use ladder for FOUR houses to access a flat roof)
Ive been on roofs are FOUR strorey doing roof repairs as a carpenter, and it aint pretty
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money money money - thats why we love wfp - it stands for Wealthifying Fibreglass Pole
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Don't knock my ladder mate!
My knees go all wobbly if anyone does that!
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In town centres, there are lots of buildings where there are shops on the ground with offices above. These shops don't want water gushing on/in to their neon signs, stands or entrances etc.
I don't think the shop keepers will be too pleased if the window cleaners also fall onto their neon signs as well.
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I can't remember many recent fanatical anti-ladder posts here.
Was there?
Anyway, I think most would agree that ladders have their uses. I wouldn't be without mine even though I have recently converted to using a WFP.
I think it's more a case of anti-WFP from lads who don't want to make the change.
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No we're just making the point that some of us still take the time and care to do it the professional way.
It's just defending ourselves against those who think they're superior.
They seem to think we fall off every week, but how many of us do?
As I've said before, I've gone through my round and counted more windows I couldn't wfp than ladder.
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kjc
ive fallen off 4 times and enjoy the adrenalin rush you get from a fall ;D but when im up the ladder on slippy slabs or a gusty wind im poopting myself. im converting 2 wfp now starting with an expensive resin eater di vessel but like kjc on a monday i clean shops all day, during the summer i spend 1 day a week cutting grass etc use an estate car easy 2 put ladders on :) an tip grass at tip so buyin an expensive ro kit an more expensive van has disadvantages as well.
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Is it just me who finds these negative water fed pole ladder posts boring I thought the idea of this forum was to help each other I can see nothing positive or intresting in this post >:(
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Is it just me who finds these negative water fed pole ladder posts boring I thought the idea of this forum was to help each other I can see nothing positive or intresting in this post >:(
If you read the post properly, you will see the sentences,
"...water fed pole window is without question a great tool"
and
"...real window cleaners who are skilled in and embrace ALL methods".
I am NOT having a go at wfp, I use it myself - it's a cracking tool!
I am NOT saying ladders aren't dangerous either, of course they are.
I AM having a go at (some) wfp (users) who, in not so many words, try to make out that window cleaners who do or have to use ladders are idiots with lemming tendencies.
And in reply to Tosh1, the link on the - New Trade Association Launched (for wfp users) - post. I read it as:
Ladders = certain death, expense and people who use them are perceived as being a bit dodgy - hence this post.
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In town centres, there are lots of buildings where there are shops on the ground with offices above. These shops don't want water gushing on/in to their neon signs, stands or entrances etc.
I don't think the shop keepers will be too pleased if the window cleaners also fall onto their neon signs as well.
I think you're getting confused with moths.
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OK so each to his own. I don't see that to be a problem.
About twelve years ago I went on a small business course, it wasn't much good really but the one thing I do remember was how the bloke started things off.
He said "How many different types of business can you think of ?"
"Hundreds" said one guy. "Thousands" said another.
"NO" he said "theres only one, All businesses are about making money. Everything else is just detail"
I think the ladders v WFP argument is just that. Detail.
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Vince thats the best "one liner" about the argument since the boards started. What a positive gem of info.
We may all differ, so its just in the detail.
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Tell you what....It's been snowing here, we've got a wind chill of about -6!
With strong north easterly gusts.
The ladder is staying on the roof rack, the poles are staying in the van, I am staying in the warm........the rest is detail! But not making money at it. :P
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However as the saying goes - "The devil is in the detail"
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rubbish!
Stay in the dark ages! You paint such a bad picture that is not entirely true! I have a commercial wfp company but still respect the need for trad cleaning.
Your views are bitter and badly investigated.
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It's not the dark ages Caustic Skoda. ::)
It's the skilled, accurate way of doing it, and there's more people doing it this way.
Water-Fad-pole is going to give us window cleaners a bad name.
I'm proud to tell prospective customers I do it in the time-honoured way, and they're so relieved. ;)
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YAAAWN,These topics are gettting very boring,just get on with the way you clean windows,if you prefer to use ladders fare enough and if wfp is the way you have chosen then great,it`s obvious that all this is doing is disagreeing and in no way is making anyone want to change,Gaz
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Hi Sqeaky I have a name thats not derogatory, that no one else has collared yet. Why not call trad w/cers "Classic window cleaning" - not my origination but I thought it was cool.
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Ive just got my van back with my wfp tank and gear all done by facelift. Looks great and I will start useing it in jan next year.
Going wfp for safety reasons. Been dragging my backside up and down ladders for 26 yrs.I do tops my son the bottoms, I must climb up and down a ladder a 1000 times a week. Safety here I come.
I will still do houses traditional,were the window frames of a house are not up to standard. I'm about to order a new 12' ladder as my old one as passed it sell by date.
Embrace both, and keep your options open.
By April I should of masterd wfp and I'm targetting a £8000.00 increase in earnings nexyt year, I would not be able to do it without wfp.
Nel
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I have to agree that each to their own.
If they want to use ladders or wfp it's up to them.
I disagree that wfp will give w/c's a bad name as it is progress with the times.
I'm sure the squeegee hasn't been around for ever so was there a disagreement when this was introduced?
I use both methods but mainly wfp as i find it quicker with better results, but that is just my opinion.
Even though i had heard of the wfp before i joined this forum i new nothing about it.
If it wasn't for the helpful advice and postings i probably would have stuck to using ladders.
Now i have this extra tool to aid me in my work i am as happy as a pig in s**t.
I can work quicker, deliver a good service and work safer which means alot to me.
WFP is just another tool to help us just like this forum.
Craig
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I have to agree that each to their own.
If they want to use ladders or wfp it's up to them.
I disagree that wfp will give w/c's a bad name as it is progress with the times.
I'm sure the squeegee hasn't been around for ever so was there a disagreement when this was introduced?
I use both methods but mainly wfp as i find it quicker with better results, but that is just my opinion.
Even though i had heard of the wfp before i joined this forum i new nothing about it.
If it wasn't for the helpful advice and postings i probably would have stuck to using ladders.
Now i have this extra tool to aid me in my work i am as happy as a pig in s**t.
I can work quicker, deliver a good service and work safer which means alot to me.
WFP is just another tool to help us just like this forum.
Craig
What an amazing reply,see theres no need for any nasty remarks,good on yer Craig,Gaz
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rubbish!
Stay in the dark ages! You paint such a bad picture that is not entirely true! I have a commercial wfp company but still respect the need for trad cleaning.
Your views are bitter and badly investigated.
A bit of both here. I didn't mention in the opening post that I use WFP - my fault :-[ and you obviously haven't read my later post, the reply to Kingfisher.
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I have to agree that each to their own.
If they want to use ladders or wfp it's up to them.
Unfortunately, it is not as straight forward as that.
The Temporary Work at Height Regulations 2005 require alternatives to work at height to be used where practicable. It is a simple fact that WFP is a practicable alternative to work at height for the vast majority of window cleaning situations, especialy residential.
If you are doing a window cleaning job using ladders that could reasonably be done with WFP, then you're breaking the law. That's no-ones opinion, that's a fact, and you can read it for yourself here :
Temp WAH Regs 2005 (http://www.legislation.hmso.gov.uk/si/si2005/20050735.htm)
Notice particularly para 2 of the introductory section 6 which states
"(2) Every employer shall ensure that work is not carried out at height where it is reasonably practicable to carry out the work safely otherwise than at height."
Note also that sec 3(3) of the citation paragraph includes the self employed in the term "employer"
If you are using work at height, to comply with the regs you must be able to justify the fact that you did not employ a method that avoided the need to work at height. As more and more window cleaners are changing over to poles, this is only going to get more difficult.
If you employ others and you use ladders, woe betide you if an accident occurs. All a "no-win, no fee" lawyer would have to prove is that the building you were doing could have been done with a WFP, and not only will you be liable for compensation, you will also face criminal charges for negligence. It is likely that in addition to that, the HSE would prosecute you for breach of the regulations. Forget about any insurance cover you may or may not have, if you're found to be working illegally, it won't cover you. Bye bye business, house, car, savings and anything else you have of any value.
At the end of the day, we can argue till the cows come home about WFP versus Ladders, but the fact is that ladders - as useful as they always be to window cleaners - will no longer be regarded as the primary means of access for window cleaners.
If you don't yet use a WFP, then my advice is forget about all this squabbling and work towards getting one for your own benefit. This will allow you to comply with the law, will safeguard any employees you have from the potential for a serious (even fatal) accident, and not mention the fact that your wife/girlfriend/partner won't have to worry that one day they'll get a phonecall from the hospital about you.
Its a no-brainer, and it needn't cost the earth either. WFP is transforming the window cleaning industry. My recommendation is Take Advantage Of It!
-Philip
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I understand all that.
But when i said it is up to them, i ment it's up to them to decide if they want wfp or to stick using ladders.
I was assuming people who just use ladders are going with these new regs.
Whatever anyone posts on any forum you will have a conflict.
Thats what some of these places are for.
I use this for info which i have found very useful.
Even if the Height regs hadn't changed i would still have added wfp to my van as the safety side of it was more important to me.
Craig
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I changed to WFP for a number of reasons, I think the biggest at the time was I had got utterly fed up with climbing ladders and was becoming more and more aware of the consequences of a mishap.
At the time I was 48 years old, when looking to the future I could only see an endless time of climbing ladders and cleaning windows, personal pension that is worth diddly squat, I can't afford to retire...
Some of the ladder work was getting to feel like hard work, in particular offices of 30 to 40 feet...that is a big and heavy ladder to work off, I just didn't want it anymore.
If I could have found a job as a driver of some description I would have probably taken it, and offered my commercial round to Roger of Squeaky Clean fame.
If I hadn't come on to the forums (Peter Fogwill's to begin with), Roger may may had all my work!
But now I have made the move, quite regardless of the safety angle, I would say to any window cleaner, prime your customers now, even if it will take you a year or two to make the change, start getting them used to the idea.
WFP does a first rate job, it is easier and faster, that isn't to say its not hard work, at times it most certainly is.
Any window you can get a ladder to you can sure as hell get a WFP to.
Take on board all that Philip has said with regards to the law and health and safety, you'll have to shell out a few bob and be prepared for a sharp learning curve, but you'll earn more money.
In almost 2 years I have only climbed a ladder to clean window on a handful of occasions, the most I use a ladder for is access onto a flat roof (and I am cutting that out too, you put your foot through a roof or have a customer try to claim that you have caused a leak and it is a minefield, apportioning blame and responsibility is not remotely straight forward) or to get over a garden wall.
I still use trad skills every day, I don't think you can be a window cleaner unless you have all those skills too...you cannot really be JUST a WFP window cleaner, but you can be a virtually ladder free window cleaner...and make more money too! and thats the reason I go out to work every day...to make money, I ain't doing it for love.
regards
Ian
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time for a group hug and then we can all bend down and pick up the dummies that have been spat all over the floor!
wfp or squeegee-- if you do it well your still a bloody window cleaner.
we're here to help eachother are'nt we?
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time for a group hug...
That's right Mr.Genesis. (See I'm not calling people names now!) :-*
I suggest we all do it our own way and stop all this "I'm better than you" nonsense.
We may have different opinions but there's no point arguing about it.
I'm not going to change my method because someone says there's is better and they should do the same.
Sooner or later there'll be another method anyway....
This sort of rubbish is now creeping into threads that started off on different topics in the first place.
Maybe there should be a separate "Debate and arguing" thread. :o
Perhaps some people should pay a visit to Dave and Sarah's off-topic area for a bit of a laugh and unwind a bit.
So from now on I'm saying nothing and just going to chuckle to myself.
Of course, if anyone starts it again.....! ;D
Rog.(bored of typing now)
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If you are doing a window cleaning job using ladders that could reasonably be done with WFP, then you're breaking the law. That's no-ones opinion, that's a fact, and you can read it for yourself here
What should I do when I clean an old House with window frames that have oxidised paintwork, or white allumminum frames? If I use wfp on them I will do a rubbish job, I still want to keep my reputation as a very good w/c in tact.
I dont mind useing my ladders for work like that, Surely the end product as to be taken into consideration. If I use wfp on frames like that I will lose customers through no fault of my own.
If I do clean them with wfp I will feel like Dick Turpin without the horse.
Nel.
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If you are doing a window cleaning job using ladders that could reasonably be done with WFP, then you're breaking the law. That's no-ones opinion, that's a fact, and you can read it for yourself here
What should I do when I clean an old House with window frames that have oxidised paintwork, or white allumminum frames? If I use wfp on them I will do a rubbish job, I still want to keep my reputation as a very good w/c in tact.
I dont mind useing my ladders for work like that, Surely the end product as to be taken into consideration. If I use wfp on frames like that I will lose customers through no fault of my own.
If I do clean them with wfp I will feel like thingy Turpin without the horse.
Nel.
Thingy Turpin indeed. I just love this forum censorship. :-)
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perhaps I should have posted my comments in this thread instead of this one - http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=14458.0
JohnL
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I first started cleaning windows in 1958, God that's nearly half century ago.
Nobody wanted to do shop fronts, we only had chamoise and scrims in those days. We had never heard of sqeegies. Then someone got one.
Now how could you do a proper job with all those suds and water everywhere. It soon became apparent that this bloke was doing shop fronts in a fraction of the time we were taking, to add insult to injury he was doing a better job.
We decided that sqeegies were ok for shop fronts but no good for domestic work, and this was to a large extent true. Most houses in those days had small pane sash windows. It was only when the fashion for large picture windows came in that sqeegies became an everyday tool for domestic work. For some thirty years the sqeegie was king and for some work still is.
At the age of 63 I invested in a WFP system. This was NOT for safety reasons. I have used ladders for all these years, and felt safe enough doing so.
The reason I changed was so that I could do the job faster and make more money,and this has definately been the case. Not only that but the bloody thing does a better job
When I have to use ladders now, and I do occasionaly, I don't feel as safe anymore.
Times change. Who would have thought in 1958 that I would be sitting in front of a thing called a PC, and communicating with fellow window cleaners from all over the world. DAI
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well said dai :)
JohnL
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What I object to is the way us professional, experienced ladder users are now being called Law Breakers!!!!
I don't blame fellow window cleaners who have pointed the WAHR. It is the way some in our industry are interpriting the WAHR, mostly those who have an interest in the WFP industry!!
WFP is an excellent tool and I will be geting a system next year but:
I AM NOT....NOT BREAKING THE LAW BY USING A LADDER TO CLEAN WINDOWS.
So long as my risk assesment show the risk is low
David Salkeld
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If you are doing a window cleaning job using ladders that could reasonably be done with WFP, then you're breaking the law. That's no-ones opinion, that's a fact, and you can read it for yourself here
What should I do when I clean an old House with window frames that have oxidised paintwork, or white allumminum frames? If I use wfp on them I will do a rubbish job, I still want to keep my reputation as a very good w/c in tact.
I dont mind useing my ladders for work like that, Surely the end product as to be taken into consideration. If I use wfp on frames like that I will lose customers through no fault of my own.
If I do clean them with wfp I will feel like thingy Turpin without the horse.
Nel.
I wonder if the end product is/would be a viable argument in law for ladder use?
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I've removed several replies, stay sensibly on topic and debate the issues properly or the thread will be locked.
If you want to play, go to the non related section of the forums guys, that what it is there for.
Ian
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David the local authority this area have asked me for RAs If I used ladders I wouldnt get a sniff of the jobs and would be stopped from the ones I do have.
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Probably gonna upset a few here , but hey lots of others are doing it .
My view is that wfp is king , safe , quick , what else is there to say ?
All the anti wfp brigade strike me as being the ones who dont want to part with their money , tight wads ! LOL
Rich P @ F
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100% AGREE had it with anti wfp brigade
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Probably gonna upset a few here , but hey lots of others are doing it .
My view is that wfp is king , safe , quick , what else is there to say ?
All the anti wfp brigade strike me as being the ones who dont want to part with their money , tight wads ! LOL
Rich P @ F
Erm, no. Don't know what the other's reasons are, but I'm not selling out to a machine with £ signs in my eyes.
I've got pride in my work and it doesn't suit my round.
If I did want to, £1000-odd quid + a van is more than pocket change.
Doesn't make me tight not having that sort of capital....
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Squeaky Rog,you need to be multi skilled to be able to tackle wfp aswell,we have proved it that we can handle it,Gaz
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Mmm,
I have a great deal of pride in my own work, and as Roger will confirm, I always work to a good standard.
But now I have made the move to WFP I would say that my standards have, by and large gone up by a marked degree.
But staying with the original point of the topic; I have read very little in the way of WFP users knocking ladder users in a derogatory sense, rarely do they have a pop at trad window cleaners, but the reverse is often the case with the entrenched trad window cleaners often being only to keen to have a go at the WFP user.
Spotting is usually the target for the die hard trad cleaner.
Let’s have a little comparison with the WFP….
The trad window cleaner will often leave smears on the glass, particularly Georgian windows, and if he should use a cut down squeegee there are usually marks left all over the shop, plus smudges and smears from all the detailing he will have had to do.
When he squeegees a window he will often leave lines around the edges, and even when he details there will still be scuff marks from the scrim.
Even a diligent window cleaner may have cleaned several windows before he notices that the squeegee is leaving marks behind and he need to turn or change his rubber because of a minute ‘nick’ somewhere along it.
The less diligent one may well not change his rubber regularly enough and that will lead to an overall poor finish, that really shows up after a day or two has passed.
Then there are the missed ‘kicks’ and ‘jumps’ from the squeegee.
What about the frames? How many trad cleaners even bother with the frames? Many will hardly bother to wipe a wet, dirty scrim over the sill, let alone clean the frames.
How about the front and back doors? Not the patio ones, the ordinary painted or UPVC ones, with maybe just a single pane of glass in, how many trad cleaners wash all of this down?
And how many trad cleaners use a single scrim all day long? Maybe just dry it out and use it the next day for detailing too? Or several days maybe?
Then there is applicator and the water, how many use a single bucket of water all day long?
How many don’t wash their applicator from one month to the next, let alone from one week to the next!
Then there are the ladders to contend with, in my travels I rarely see many window cleaners using ladder mits, and often the end pieces of the ladder have worn and it is just the aluminium scrubbing against the walls of the house leaving dirty marks, or the ladder has rested on the sill, scratching the UPVC sills and damaging the wooden ones.
The rubber marks from many pointer ladders are evident on many window frames too, not easy to get off.
Whereas the WFP user might leave a few spots…um, if he is clumsy he might knock over a flower pot…erm…um, oh, ok, he could spray water though an open window, or a window may be leaky, and we all know that he will struggle to do a good job on windows with oxidised frames.
Now although it is certainly easier to cock up a job with WFP, by and large there is less to go wrong, there are fewer elements involved in the actual cleaning of the glass and frames, it is a brush with pure water coming out of it.
Only the bristles of the brush as against, applicator, squeegee and scrim is in contact with the surface it is cleaning.
Now before all you fundamentalist trad cleaners start spluttering into your coffee, I have deliberately highlighted all the possible flaws and problems you can have doing things the trad way (or as many as I could think of while writing this anyway!)
And of course, all the above is negated by any window cleaner who is diligent and prides him or herself on doing a top job day in, day out.
The same applies to the WFP’er!!
And the WFP user is also a trad window cleaner too.
WFP is not a sell out to a machine with £ signs in your eyes, its an investment for the future and a bloody good tool to have in your vehicle…which doesn’t have to be a van either…and doesn’t have to cost anything like a grand to get set up with!!
For the most part it is us poor old WFP’ers who have to defend ourselves against the vitriol of the fundamentalist trad guy, who doesn’t just dog ear his squeegee,
but cunningly files the edges to a razor like blade….and sabotages the poor old WFP’ers hose when he is out of sight around the back of a house! :'(
(I made up that last bit ;D)
Regards,
Ian
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Ian,i am very disapointed woth your post,i use wfp for tops and large commercial windows,i use pad and squeegee more than i do wfp,i have been window cleaning for 18 years and i AM the best window cleaner full stop,i don`t leave marks from scrims ,rubbers or what ever,i clean all frames sills and doors and use atleast 6 scrims a day,i don`t knock trad cleaning atall it`s just ladders that i don`t climb anymore,Gaz
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OK firstly as a window cleaner. WFP is just one TOOL of the trade. A very good one if used properly just like any other tool that we use and like any other rubbish if used incorrectly. I certainly dont think that I am any better than a good totally trad man in any way. I too like you Squeaky take a pride in my work whichever way I do it.
I do believe also that Mr Salkeld is correct in what he says. Yes you CAN use ladders if it's safe to do so providing you have done a thorough risk assesment. Just because someone uses ladders doesn't make them unprofessional at all although I believe that the WAHD does leave the door open for the no win no fee compensation outfits to jump in.
Now speaking with my experience as a supplier of WFP equipment I speak daily to people investigating making the move over. One thing above all others has struck me. Almost without fail the most important thing to them is quality. It seems to me that these many and varied people take their businesses very seriously. Yes of course they want the safety and do discuss the time saving element but by far the most important thing to them is the quality of service they offer their customers. All I do is relate my own experience which is very positive where WFP is concerned.
I do mostly all 1st floor upwards with WFP and use trad on ground floor ( all of the property if it's leaded or decent paintwork georgian) This way I am around 40% faster. I stll do trad 1st floor because it gives me some variety to my work. Cmon folks.. each to their own. As long as we do a good job and look after our customers well we don't deserve to be derided because of the method we use to get the end product.
Now.. lets get that WAHD changed... so you allllllllll have to go WFP ;D ;D ;D
Cheers
Andrew
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I, ve just spent £14,000.00 in the last 3 months investing in a new van and a van mounted wfp set up.
This morning I also bought a new ladder with extra safety devices as well. I do intented to use both for a short while. If wfp is as good as everyone says I will reconsider in a years time weather too stop usueing a ladder all together.
I've now got wfp and allways will have. I have just got to get used to it.
Though a customer remminded me yesterday how I complained when I started useing a sqeggee.
Nel.
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Gaz,
You are the exception and not the rule, and if you read carefuly you will see I am not knocking trad, I use it everyday, I was counterpointing the original post.
But you will leave marks Gaz, there isn't a window cleaner in existance that won't do so, not a one.
Get the light in the right angle and it will always show up something.
when I was full time trad I'd only use about three scrims a day at best, and a single bucket of water lasted me all day long!
Though as I always used a BOAB I would alos say that the water was clean at all times
I never did frames and I never did doors, and I don't know of anyone local that does either, those that do so, like yourself are the exception and not the rule, but good for you for being so particular ;)
Neil,
It won't take you a year dude....
I'll look for any excuse NOT to climb a ladder now :-\
Ian
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if you can use any kind of pole be it wfp or the norm,backflip etc,then I would go this way rather then a ladder ;)it does make sense ;)
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Ian,
I've never had anyone mention a line, kick, or smudge around the edge in 8 years.
You'd have to be pretty poor to leave anything worth a customer mentioning.
It's hardly as noticeable as spotty windows or bird poop that you haven't seen from 15ft below.
Now I have heard many complaints about that.... ::)
I don't think trad people on here are attacking wfp users, it's more a case of defending themselves against some around here who think they're superior.
We're just highlighting how wrong that is. ;)
Rog. (wishing you'd lock this!)
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Neil,
It won't take you a year dude....
I'll look for any excuse NOT to climb a ladder now :-\
Ian
Ian.
I've only been doing WFP a few weeks and I begrudge getting my ladder off already :)
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Ian i agree with squeaky bean,this topic is getting knowhere apart from disagreements,so lock it up and throw away the key,Gaz ;)
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squeaky bean
That's right Jiz. :P
(better than Streaky Clean I've had before!)
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Right!
As the title says, these are "ANTI-LADDER KNOCKERS"
There you go, I've broken the rules, now lock it!!!!!
(took me ages that did...) ;D
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As a window cleaner.
Air your views, get it off your chest, you will feel a lot better.
I would never offer advice to a smoker on how hard or easy it is to kick the eveil weed because I have never smoked.
But a lot of traditional w/cleaners are only too eager to slack wfp users off. haveing never tryed it, or only to look at the negatives.
I am switching to wfp and expecting to hate it for several months. But then your attitude is suppossed to change as you get used to it, and you start to really know what you are doing.
In dec 2007 I will be able to give an informed opionion on both methods of w/c. Till then I will keep my powder Dry.
Nel.
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I will let it run for another hour or so, I'm waiting to see if anyone else misinturprets what I have said!
Rog,
Just because a customer hasn't said anything, doesn't mean these things aren't there.
If a customer wants to find fault, they will, and you will well know yourself, when yo udo an inside, should a customer ask you, you will almost invariably find fault yourself and have to go out and pick up the mistakes.
If it is a georgian there will be even more.
I have never had anyone working for me who I couldn't find fault with if I wanted too.
I know I am sounding pedantic here, and I am honestly not trying to knock anyone, but no matter how good you are, no matter how fussy, throughout the day you will make mistakes.
And it is also more than possible to miss bird poo even when doing it trad.
On a standard house you can see bird poo easily from the ground, I haven't had a problem with that at all so far, even on 3rd floor windows.
And Roger...the point of the above critique was to highlight that it is also possible to point to areas where trad cleaners can and do make errors!!
The tongue may have been part way in the cheek at times, but there has to be bits in there that all will recognise.
How many of you look at windows that others have cleaned and 'tut-tutted' to yourselves, you will usually be able to find fault with someone elses work!
Most of my work is shops and offices, pub and so on, but when I am in another town, or in a pub I don't clean, I can't help but look at the work of whatever window cleaner has done them, it isn't often I can't say to myself, 'Ha! I do a better job then them!'
Bad mistakes are down to user error, and not the tools used, but to continually say that WFP leaves windows spotty all the time is gravely wrong, it doesn't, just as trad work doesn't always leave smears, or runs or kicks.
We'll leave this thread to run for today, then we'll lock it away until the next thread comes up along similar lines and we re-hash it all over again!
It's like Groundhog day...just not in technicolour!!
And for all of you who keep replying to these threads...you don't have to if you don't want to!!
But you just can't help yourself can you?
It's an itch you just have to scratch!!
Surprise me Gaz or Roger....no longer reply to this thread...can you resist just one last word.....eh? ;D ;D :-X
Regards,
Ian
PS,
Nel, you won't hate it for several months, after a week or two you will start to enjoy it, and by the time you get onto repeat cleans you'll be lovin' it!
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Being new to WFP, I love these threads.
I took an account from a ladder user today; she asked me to give her a quote because her neighbor said her window cleaner did such an excellent job 'with a machine' and could do ALL the windows; including the ones above the conservatory.
Funny thing is, I wasn't her neighbors window cleaner. It must be some other lad with a pole. She assumed it was me.
I quoted £15.00. Her ladder window cleaner charges £10.00.
She took me on and seems like a very nice customer too.
She paid £20.00 and told me to keep the rest for a drink. It was also quite dark by the time I finished; but she was okay with that.
However, I still used a ladder today; at least 10 times for access or for flat roofs, or just when I thought a job might be simpler.
Don't knock the WFP. It's a good tool; as they say. We're all in the business of making money; and it definately makes you more than using ladders.
I reckon I did an extra £35 to £50 today; than I would've using a ladder and tomorrow I'll make an extra £45. Okay, this might be small cheese to some here; but to me it's a big difference. I'm new still wet behind the ears within the window cleaning fraternity.
I also agree with Ian about the 1st lot of WFP cleans. They're tedious; but important to get right the first time.
The second time; you fly round; at least 30 to 50 percent faster.
In three months I've had one valid complaint on a first clean (I must've went too quick); had many positive remarks and not lost a single customer; although I can think of two customers who would prefer I used a ladder.
But I think this is because of what I'm charging and the speed of cleaning. The quality of cleaning is high; I make sure I double check because I know these are 'funny' customers. But if they dropped me; so what? Two lost customers out of approximately 350 isn't bad.
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You didnt spend as much me. I spent 15,000 and I haven't regretted it for one millisecond as I can see I will get it all back.
I've only ever heard trad w\c knock it. I never heard of a WFPer who didnt like it, sold up and gone back to ladders. For me that says it all. It used to be a strugle for me to get out to work now actually quite enjoy it and not always thinking about doing something else.
Long live WFP!!!
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Roger
You wrote "I've got pride in my work and it doesn't suit my round" regarding the use of wfp cleaning, you then went on to detail how you are professional window cleaner who takes great care how his business is seen, which is great.
Now the whad regulations state that you have to do a risk assement before you do a job and if you can clean them windows in any other way which means you don't climb ladders then you must do it.
If you disregard this regulation then you are breaking the law, which is not how a professional businessman wants his company to be seen doing.
There are a lot of laws which I don't like or suit me, like paying tax, but its the law so I do it.
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...I've only ever heard trad w\c knock it. I never heard of a WFPer who didnt like it, sold up and gone back to ladders...
Tim,
Some people are frightened of 'change'.
I spent some time in the army and I remember on my Senior NCO's cadre learning about 'Change Management' and how 'they don't like it'; 'change' that is.
But this type of 'change' is definately for the better. It is possible to make more money using a WFP. And it's safer and less arduous. Fact!
Some people embrace change; they love the variety and challenge. Others won't change. They'll come up with allsorts of lame excuses. 'Dog ate my homework, Sir!'. 'Spots'. 'My customer's won't like it'. But we know that's pure rubbish, because others have proved they can do a good job and keep their customers.
Darwin summed it up far more eloquently than I (survival of the fittest); forget IQ tests; the only true measure of intelligence is adaptability.
Some people will not adapt through fear or dullness.
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I think everything is getting out of control here, at the end of the day if your a window cleaner then you are a window cleaner if there will be crap trad window cleaners and there will be crap wfp window cleaners, if people want to clean windows in a certain way then should be allowed to and not be jugded if you use ladders good luck to you if you use wfp good luck to you there just different tools to do the same job so lets stop digging each other out and get on with what's important which CLEANING WINDOWS.
Gordon.
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The debate hasn't got nasty or offensive, though Roger's rather sexy pic he posted is going to have to go...shame, but there you go :P
people are all making valid points so far.
I'm actually enjoying seeing the the various retorts ;D
But today is the last chance to reply!!
Ian
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Now the whad regulations state that you have to do a risk assement before you do a job and if you can clean them windows in any other way which means you don't climb ladders then you must do it.
Actually, it says you should use the safest means at your disposal to do the job.
As I don't own a pole system then I can't do it in any other way, so I am doing it the safest way available to me.
If I swung from the roof on a rope when I could have used a nice steady ladder, then I'm not using the safest option, hence ignoring laws...
What you're saying is the same as saying "ladders are banned" ::)
It's typical of wfp'ers to say something like that.
This is what annoys us trad cleaners and started this whole thing.
Rog.
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HERE , HERE GORDON !
When i first became aware of people using wfp for domestic i laughed , i thought that it could in no way beat the trad method , but in the end i put my hand in my pocket and purchased it anyway , i have spent about £1000 on the system , £800 on poles and £5000 on a van to put it all in , i couldnt help but think that i had wasted my money at first , could not see any way to stop the spotting , i was going to flog the lot and do just trad .
I kept on with it and in the end it was down to my technique , and i also di all my water before it even goes into the van , now i can hand on heart say that i have never had a prob since , not ever .
In my opinion i am a far better at wfp than trad .
What i am trying to say is , choose your tool to suit your style and get on with it , my old man used to say somfin like " its not the tool its the user "
COME ON LETS ALL BE BUDDIES AGAIN !
Oh , and in my previous post i said wfp is king , i suppose what i meant was wfp is king for me .
Rich P @ F ;D
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SQUEAKY CLEAN ......
I have to admit , when i changed over i did tell my customers that ladders were soon to be banned , SORRY , i just saw it as an easy way to tell them i could not be bothered to get my skinny a r s e up ladders anymore .
Rich P @ F ::)
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Well yeah, that's probably what I'd do!
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SO SQUEAKY .....
Does your last comment mean that your going at last ......to WFP !
GO ON , YOU KNOW YOU WANNA !
Rich P @ F ;D
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Actually Rich I've got a plan for a whole new technique.
You see I've got this friend with a trampoline.....
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Roger
You will find that the hse will not accept that because you don't have a wfp system you don't have to use them, they will inform you to either buy or lend a wfp system if that is the safest method to do the job, or don't do the job.
I did not say that ladders are banned, what I said is if there is no alternative method that you can use to clean the windows safely, then you can use ladders.
You say that you are a "trad Cleaner" is that the "trad cleaner" who cleaned windows before the squeegie was invented or before srims were used.
WE ALL ARE WINDOW CLEANERS NO MATTER WHAT EQUIPMENT YOU USE.
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I knew Roger wouldn't be able to resist another reply....
Philip Hanson's posts give a fairly definitive definition of how the rules are going to be interpreted.
And I don't think anyone on here really says ladders are banned, we all know they are not.
And it won't be until you have an accident of some kind that the proverbial will hit the fan.
Not having a piece of equipment isn't justification to use something else instead either!!
Come on Rog, make another reply before we have to lock it up!!
You know you want to!
Ian
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I'm sure you're enjoying the show Ian. ;D
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Now the whad regulations state that you have to do a risk assement before you do a job and if you can clean them windows in any other way which means you don't climb ladders then you must do it.
Actually, it says you should use the safest means at your disposal to do the job.
As I don't own a pole system then I can't do it in any other way, so I am doing it the safest way available to me.
What you're saying is the same as saying "ladders are banned" ::)If I swung from the roof on a rope when I could have used a nice steady ladder, then I'm not using the safest option, hence ignoring laws...
It's typical of wfp'ers to say something like that.
This is what annoys us trad cleaners and started this whole thing.
Rog.
Rog,
If you read the WAHD and it's guidance notes, it states that the guiding principle is that if a task can be completed from the ground; then that's how it should be done.
Full stop.
Nothing to do with 'safest means at your disposal'. I don't mean to be argumentative; but your simply wrong.
Ian Greenwood, Head of the Working at Height Directive Team said on Newnight that ladders aren't banned, but window cleaners MUST consider the alternatives first.
That's not just a wooly statement.
Fred: 'Burt, what the alternatives?'
Burt: 'Dunno, mate, I've just got a ladder. So none really'.
Fred: 'Great, ladders are okay then'.
It just doesn't work like that.
Fortunately, no-one is policing the WAHD so I can and still do use ladders in an inappropriate fashion.
I know when I use a ladder; most - if not all of the time - I'm not complying with the WAHD.
But at least I've actually read the rules, undertand them and I'm man enough to admit that I often don't comply with them also.
It's getting tedious reading 'informed' statements about the WAHD. It's been with us for at least nine months now.
Why not try reading the WAHD.
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He said "How many different types of business can you think of ?"
"Hundreds" said one guy. "Thousands" said another.
"NO" he said "theres only one, All businesses are about making money. Everything else is just detail"
I'm going to borrow that one!! Thanks.
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So to sum up then Tosh:
If you haven't got hundreds if not thousands of pounds to burn, then you're out of a job and your business folds.
That ain't right. ???
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To be honest, so far since I've been on this forum Roger has given the most calm, logical, uncomplicated answers and reasons for remaining a window cleaner using only traditional methods with ladder, bucket, mop & squeegee etc.
I still use all that when I need to. Having been converted to wfp just a couple of months ago, I am still a novice with the new method. Having cleaned Roger's way (Squeaky Clean) for 18 years I know exactly why he is defending his corner.
I had a customer today who knows nothing of wfp. She said she has never had a window cleaner who can clean windows as well as me.
Sad isn't it! That made me feel good.
I showed her my new way. She didn't care, as long as I kept cleaning them as good as ever, was her view.
Who cares?
If you want job satisfaction, you'll get it more by sweating with the old way.
If you want bigger money go wfp!!!
Sorry Rog and good guys like you. So far I would say, you don't get the same kick from people saying you work so hard and do such a good job. You lose some of the personal touch, but...........
MORE MONEY and less effort!
I had a heart attack nearly 3 years ago. Dr. said take things easy. WFP is less effort. I work longer than I have since my return to work.
I DON'T DO IT FOR LOVE
Pj
Lock it soon Ian (Shorty ;D)
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Many new rules & regs aint right or are unworkable. Thats life hun. We choose to follow them, break the rules or get out quick.
Gone are the days when you could set up a business and trade without all the rules!
Anyways............as long as my windows are clean and are cleaned by a WINDOW CLEANER, I dont care how theyre done!
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So to sum up then Tosh:
If you haven't got hundreds if not thousands of pounds to burn, then you're out of a job and your business folds.
That ain't right. ???
It might not be right or fair but its law.
Also no one can say I can't afford it, a simple overdraft is more than enough to get a basic system and this system will pay that overdraft back a hundred fold.
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Well that's nice if you haven't already got a big overdraft! :o
Besides which, if I did go that way I'd want a van, so I could carry enough water to last my week.
I'm not spending unpaid time every day lugging water about with my bad back, and filling tanks.
I'd just want to fill a big tank from the tap once a week and that's it.
And that's still more work than I have to do now.
I just chuck some scrims in my pouches and stick my bucket under the tap and I'm off.
I've got no room in my garden for a tank and I don't want my car wet inside.
Just too many hassles for me.
There. I've given some good reasons there, not just excuses.
Cheers for the bit of support PJ.
Appreciated mate. ;)
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William X is right , got myself a 0% egg card , banged the system and all that was needed on it , the balance will be gone before the 0% runs out .
Interest free loan to earn your money !
Rich P @ F
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Roger
Someone once said "its easy to find reasons not to do something, than it is to do it"
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You don`t need to buy it all at once,i did loads of research first,then started to buy bits at a time,and i am now well past 6 months of wfp and thank god no more ladders i am much more relaxed and VERY MUCH SAFER when i am working,don`t make lame excuses when it`s your business,Gaz
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I don't need excuses if I just don't want or need it.
I'm not trying to find reasons, they are the facts in my situation.
They were all valid reasons, I thought they were easy enough to understand. ???
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What is a traditional window cleaner? When I first did the job in the 1950's We used chamoise mops or skins, and scrim. Before they used scrims they either used 2 leathers, one for cleaning one for polshing, or a leather followed by a duster when the glass was dry. this was the traditional way. Scrim was a wonderfull material[and still is]. It made the job much easier and quicker. When used properly, clean and damp, it gave a far superior finish.
Then came squeegies. This was not the traditional way of cleaning, using soap suds and a windsreen wiper. A traditional guy would never dream of letting soap come anywhere near his leather or scim. These had to be washed in clean soapless water.
Gradually as they began fitting larger panes in windows the sqeegie was adopted.
A break in tradition but progress non the less.
Now we have WFP. It makes the job quicker, safer, and does a better job than I could ever do on seaside, salt encrusted glass. Anyone who works coastal areas will tell you that. Just touch your scrim on a salt laden frame and it is contaminated. It will leave marks all over the place. Even when doing bottoms only with a blade, I have a bucket full of dirty scrims every night, thats why I have at least 30 on the van. I don't use them to mop sills either, I use old bits of towel for that.
If I'm not a traditional window cleaner what am I? Did a joiner become something else when he used an electric drill for the first time? Did a farmer become something else when he bought his first tractor?
Tools change. People don't.
The bottom line is, there are guys out there that have been using WFP for years on domestic work, and his clients are prepared to pay him for doing it, month after month, after month. Dai
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by midnight this thread will be locked, its been a cracker tonight, lots of sensible replies.
Not long left if you want to reply!!
Get your final points in now!!!
;D
Ian
Oh, just went to post and Roger has already done one!
Even for you Rog there is an option, ok it may be beyond your means at present, but were I in your specific position I would go for a trailer mount, 350l litre tank and use either the inlaws or parents place for water production.
A submersible pump to transfer water from static tank to trailer tank...I can fill my 650l tank in ten minutes, and that is pumping it 45m up the garden.
No heavy lugging of water barrels involved at all.
Providing your parents or inlaws aren't on a meter you shouldn't have a problem.
350l should last you a day and a half, maybe even 2 days. all you do is walk out the house, hitch up your trailer (if you've taken it off) drive off and work, and every other day spend 10 minutes filling up your water.
Yeah, I know, not a snowballs chance of you doing it, but there is always an option for just about anyone.
And there is more than one way of raising finance too, doesn't have to be an overdraft or a bank loan.
You can do it through credit cards and interest free credit, and keep swapping cards and transfering your balance.
I know one guy who is paying for his brand new van in this way.
And yo ucan vary your payments to suit your pocket too, providing you make at least the minimum payment.
I've got food to eat!
Ian
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If you are trad and want to keep your options open for the future, dont knock wfp to your customers. Once you do you then have no way of going forward to wfp at a later date because you have already told your customers that wfp is rubbish.
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Ian you know you cant lock it its way to relevent ;D
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I think WFP is a brilliant Idea and:
I WANT ONE!!!
BUT:
I realy can't afford it right now.
Just bought a fresh car.
Need to replace the roof on the garage and clear it out (to accomodate the static RO Kit).
My priorities first!!
UNLESS.............................................
Dear Santa,
Please can I have a Water Fed Pole System?
I have been a realy GOOD boy all year
Thankyou
David Salkeld
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I like the way you stand firm Rog. This is my last on this thread
Well that's nice if you haven't already got a big overdraft! :o
Do not go into further debt. Be in the black before any new business venture
Besides which, if I did go that way I'd want a van, so I could carry enough water to last my week.
You will need a minimum 1,500 litres for a week's work. I don't care what anyone else says
I'm not spending unpaid time every day lugging water about with my bad back, and filling tanks.
To be fair, you have this bit wrong Rog. No need to lug anything but a hose. Even that is more exhausting than carrying a bucket, but less repetitive strain than the mop and squeegee. Don't be lugging water containers. Leave that to the ex military like Banzai Tosh! Respect man!
I'd just want to fill a big tank from the tap once a week and that's it.
And that's still more work than I have to do now.
That can be done, but too big a van. Smaller van, smaller tank. All you need to do is connect a hose and turn a tap!!
I just chuck some scrims in my pouches and stick my bucket under the tap and I'm off.
Yep, you've got me there, that bit is so easy. I miss it. You remind me of it.
I've got no room in my garden for a tank and I don't want my car wet inside.
I haven't entered my garden space. But my newly purchased van is soaking wet. I start it up and turn the heater full on to dry it out for a while before I start.
Meanwhile my wife climbs into our, now bone dry, clean smelling car, and heads off saying have a nice day.
Just too many hassles for me.
email me if you want
There. I've given some good reasons there, not just excuses.
Good reasons. You have my respect. And just in case anyone thinks otherwise, there is no hidden adgenda. Keep it up Rog! (There is a place for you. I envy you in a way. Like I do other things that stuck to the traditional way)
But bear in mind, wfp is not a trend.
I am making a fair bit more money, already. But I understand too if you are making enough. After all, you can only wear 1 pair of shoes at a time, and sleep in one bed. When you're not in one you're in the other.
Pj
Pj
Pj
Cheers for the bit of support PJ.
Appreciated mate. ;)
Read carefully Rog. I'm on your side
Pj
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Squeaky Clean
If you canvassed up an extra 100 houses it might take a few months but that would effectivley pay for a new van and system.
I dont think you will find a van with a big enough payload to fill it with enough water for the week. Depends how many houses you clean , but i use 600 ltrs a day to clean about 40-50 houses.
Filling the van is not that much of a hassle. With a vanmount system all your have to do is plug the hose to your van at the end of the day to fill it ready for the next day. I use to find loading the car with the ladders every morning more of a hassle.
With the new WAHR and the fact i can earn so much more money, changing over to wfp system has been the best choice i have ever made.
It is your choice but any window cleaner can afford to make the change when the the return on your investment is so good. That is the beauty of window cleaning if you want more work you just have to go and get it.
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I used wfp for the first time on wensday morning.
3rd floor windows. One customer came out with a cup of tea, my money and a tip for crimbo.
She said " I hope you dont mind me saying, I know you have spent a lot of money on your new system, but I dont like it."
" what dont you like about it? " I repelied, as I gulped down some warm amber nectar.
"Well when you cleaned them last time, thier were tiny spots on the windows." she said with a twinkle in her eye.
"ummmmmmmmmmm, Is that the only reason you dont like it?"
"Yes, I dont think this new system is as good as the old way of doing things, You allways did such a good job."
SO I lowered my half empty cup of amber nectar, Looked her straight in the eye, smiled and said as politley as I could, " Thats really strange, I never had my new system last time, I did it the old way, Good job I'm changing then"
Her facial reaction was a picture.
Clean windows how you want, but dont knock it till you've tryed.
It's hard to explain how good sex is to a virgin, He just wont understand, Then when you tell him it gets better with practice, You know your advice is falling on death ears.
Nel.
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Good read thank you chaps (Post of the Year)
Andy
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You will always find people who don't like changes, that is life.
Wfp is not the end of window cleaning but a continuance of it.
In time there will be more tools that will enhance the window cleaning trade, and with these new methods, we will have the ones who won't to change their cleaning methods.
Such is life.
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Shall I post some more gratuitous nudity before they lock it? ;D
Did you read my reply?
Pj
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I've been following this thread with interest.
There are the oh so pro wfp users who are the 'wfp is everything brigade' and there are the trad user who are anti anything good about wfp.
Then in the middle are the majority of which I am a member.
My view of wfp is it is not as good as it is cracked up to be. All the complaints we've had in the last 6 months have been when we've used wfp and there have been a lot. From water going through windows to bird mess to spots to this and that and so on.
Pre wfp for us, we hardly ever got any complaints. Now I am fed up of having to explain everything. I am also fed up of going back to re do jobs done the day before.
On the plus side, it's safer and for some jobs so quick and easy.
Also, for all of our commercial work wfp is all but a waste of time except for a few largish jobs where it is the dogs bo**ocks so to speak.
For me wfp has only 2 real advantages. The big one being not going up a ladder. The second is speed but not every time.
As for quality, I think trad methods give a better result but there again, wfp cleans the frames better. Also, we do quite a few cars now at £10 to £15 a go. And shop fronts etc.
Anyway, that's my view on wfp.
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(Self cleaning glass) Not in are life time
The debate seems to fall onto the WFP because they comply with the WAHR and faster safe and earn more money, ladders have been used from when glass was invented and they make up 75% of window cleaners in the UK today, early in the new year there will be new regulation for the use of them, they wont be ban and ladders will still be apart of window cleaning for many years to come but more and more window cleaners will change over WFP, I take my hat of to CIU for having a adult debate on a motive subject facing our industry and no dummies was spat out in the process.
Andy
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for having a adult debate on a motive subject facing our industry and no dummies was spat out in the process.
??? Sorry Poleman, I don't understand that bit about dummies?
WFP is the future and of that there is no question.
Whether it's better or not - I think that is the real issue.
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Hi Ross
Its a saying (big babys)
WFP if used right like any tool of the trade does a good job but will take time and new knowledge, I remember when I first got into WFP local window cleaners said does a bad job, I found out for myself that was not the case it’s the user not WFP.
Andy
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I've removed a few non essential posts, (sorry to those that have had them removed by the way) as this has remained a well debated topic and seems to be full of steam, ergo locking it isn't necessary just yet.
Ross has joined the debate now and added his views, so a couple may wish to respond.
Me for one ;D
My own experience differs from ross's, I've had very little in the way of complaints and by and large I've found that my standards have gone up across the board.
Spotting and other problems are down to user error, I still get the odd bit of spotting, but it is minimal and even on a first time clean the glass comes up mint.
Almost all my work is commercial, and almost all of it is done with the WFP, obviously is you have work in Malls and so on you can hardly use WFP, but I guess that really depends on the nature of your work.
I would also read the thrust of the posts in this thread differently too Ross, I don't think there are any that are 100% WFP on everything and anti trad, not even 'anti' ladders, more a case of interpreting the regs differently.
On that point (and I am really not trying to get you going on that subject...honest!!! I've read many of your posts on the subject and know how you feel about H & S!!) I know of one window cleaner that was actually cleaning the windows of a local Health and safety officer, and being concerned about the new regs he asked him his views on it.
The local Officer interpreted it (and he had just come back from a seminar) in that as you were only working off a ladder for a couple of minutes at a time you were ok, don't worry about it, carry on as normal but just observe safe practice when using your ladders.
Even Safety Officers themselves will differ in their own interpretation in the regs, so it's understandable that we all have different opinions.
For me, Philip Hanson's interpretation makes the most sense of all...and thats the thing...it DOES make sense!!
Maybe I shouldn't have said anything about the regs now that Ross has joined the debate!
His views differ to Philip's and he is equally well read on the subject too 8)
Oh well, I'm off to work, coming up to 6.30am so I need to get going!
As the thread hasn't run out of steam we'll let it run a little longer, I'll keep removing the 'chaff' when I see it...except that pic Roger posted, we'll leave that one for now ;D
Unless someone complains about the gratuitous use of a scantilly glad female with a pole in her hand of course :P
Ian
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To Rosskesava
I would say either your water aint right or your technic aint right. Before I started on the WPF I asked a WFPer to do some of my work(domestic) to gauge the reaction.
When I went back with my ladders the next time round mostly I had no reaction(Some client didn't even notice) but the ones who are on the ball preferred it and encouraged me to invest in one.
The rest is history
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I've found this post extremely interesting.
But first of all; a quick apology. Sorry Roger for giving you such a hard time. I didn't realise you had back problems.
With my 'entry-level' system and my type of round; there is definately many 'man-handling' issues. Not suited for a bad-back.
I know there's many high-earners here, but the highest I've earnt in one day using ladders during my two-and-a-half years of window cleaning is around £150.
Using WFP, today I turned over (by myself - Wor Lass is on holiday) £225. Mind you, today is my best earning day. Two shops, one pub, one hotel and the hotel managers house (all inside and out apart from the hotel; that was outside only and 80% leaded).
It would've been mission impossible for me using ladders to do what I did today.
I realise I'm leaving myself open to a 'micky taking' session here from the 'big boys', but I'm just being honest in stating what the difference between ladders and WFP has made to myself.
It's also provided quite a materialistic Christmas; which we haven't had for the past two years, and some time off work without worrying about bills and stuff.
WFP has definately made a difference to our quality of life.
It's no skin off any WFP user's nose if you won't convert; but you should give it some serious consideration; regardless of any health and safety legislation.
As a final PS, even Wor Lass has noticed I'm less knackered in the evenings, if you know what I mean! ;)
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Hi Ian
I'm not going to go on about the WAHL's. That is a well troden subject and off topic, I think, on this thread. Basically it seems to get read according to which side of the fence you work from so to speak but some aspects of working at height are now written in stone.
There is no question that anything that reduces ladder usage is a good thing and I'm just happy to never have to go up a 3 extention ladder ever again. In fact, even if by magic the law allowed working at height at any height by any means the person wanted, I'd now turn down any such work. I think I've lost 'my bottle' or got a bit more sensible.
I don't think my original posting was really off topic. None of these aguement or discussions would be occuring if WFP did exactly the same job to the same standard or better than traditional methods.
As an example for the negative side of wfp, we do 3 flats all in line on the 2nd floor of a large 20 story block of flats. The first problem is that the water goes down the wall into the flats below if their window are open. The second problem is due to location of the building. It is always blowing a gale there and by the time the water dries, the glass is seriously spotty because all the dust and dirt has then stuck to the water droplets. When done with trad methods, the same problem is not a fraction as bad.
On the positive side, we do 4 1st floor flats of another block 3 roads along. Those windows come up better than with trad methods because of the salt problem of being next to the sea. They also take minutes each with wfp instead of 30 minutes each with trad methods. And there is no risk of falling.
My point is that if WFP was the same or better than trad methods in every circumstance then these postings about this versus that and the debate about is wfp better or worse would not occur. Neither would the feeling by some trad users that they are 'second class' and about to die by putting a foot on a ladder.
Often, that veiw point by some seriously pro wfp users is not blatant or obvious. It lies there written in between the lines. A while back someone posted a question about doing the insides of a conservatory. Most posting were helpfull and to do it this way or that but one was about how a wfp user had put down towels, turned the water flow down and done the insides with wfp which was a brilliant success story. Those comments were both gross and subtle. Gross in the inferance that wfp is always better for every job and subtle in that 'look what I use' and 'you don't'.
Then there is the opposite by some trad users that a squeegie gives a better job but it seems to be more in defense of using trad methods than being 'better' apart from the comments that a lot of customers are unhappy with wfp which has been my experience also.
So to me, the bottom line of this thread is which is better? That is what I read underlying the postings in this thread. That is what causes the two camps to polarise and the posting to gravitate towards one method or the other and for seriously pro wfp users to push their point and some trad users to defend theirs.
That is what the heading of this thread says? Yes or no?
Apart from my experience, which is that wfp sometimes has a big hole in it's usage and promises, if wfp was as good as promoted then these debates would not occur as the fact would be blatant so as not to cause the debate in the first place along with it's associated postings. There would not be one side or the other. All postings would be that a w/c must have wfp.
So it comes down to does wfp do as good a job in every situation? The benifits are well documented but are the drawbacks and the many postings seem to rotate around that point one way or another.
One thing is for sure, the increased earnings are not one of those drawbacks.
Hi timdiv
I would say either your water aint right or your technic aint right
You may be right.
On the other hand last week we returned 3 times to redo the windows and on the 3rd time we used almost 20 gallons and the windows still looked terrible. The owner then told us we were the 3rd wfp users he'd tried.
We then out of interest done them with trad methods and they came up perfect. Now we have a problem because the customer now wants them done that way every time and for the money and risk - it's not worth it.
Cheers
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If you beleive in the saying that " the customer is allways right " if you were a wfp and the customer asked for you to do it tradtional. Would you get up your ladder?
Some customers are happy with wfp, I know w/c who only do wfp cleaning and will not now do traditonal. But if you beleive in the stament above, and that quality is king then surley every w/c will offer both chocies to the customer.
I am switching to wfp, but if a customer does not like the results of wfp, and she wants me to revert to traditional methods then I will do so.
On the other hand if you were traditional only and customers wanted wfp would you be willing to invest your money for their benefit?
Nel.
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I would agree with Ross in that there are some windows that you simply cannot do with WFP.
I do wonder at the reason though, most of the time it is because of the the way the glass is bedded into the frame, maybe the sealant used dissolves in a minutes way, or the pure water is somehow getting at at something on the inside of the reveal.
I think that sometimes it just has to be the glass itself.
I do a garage showroom, the one half is brand new, no more than a 12 month old, but there are two large panes of glass I always have to go back over and do trad, I don't even know why I bother doing then with WFP in the first place, the place is done once a fortnight and I've yet to clean these windows well enough that I don't have to go over them again :-\
But this is a case of it being something to do with the frames, if I clean them spotlessly clean and then wash a patch in the middle of the glass with the WFP there is no spotting at all, but go around the edges and it is there again.
Sometimes it is obvious and the frames are badly oxidised, or they are wooden frames and very old, the wood is slightly pulpy and the water draws out the cellulose and so on.
But in reply to Neil's post, no, the customer isn't always right (though I'll let them think they are ;D)
The only time I'll compromise is on ground floor work, and even then, only if I think the customer has a valid point, if it is just because the don't like the windows cleaned with water being left on the glass then they can take a hike :o
If the water is leaking through the door, or the frames have oxidised and so on, then I'll do the problem windows the trad way, or the entire ground floor if necessary.
If an upstairs window is leaking then I'll leave it, but its a no no to working off a ladder.
I'm very firm about it and haven't had a problem yet. You mmm and ahhh and you've had your chips, the customer wins, and if you do it once then others will also best you.
Just like with pricing, you tell a potential customer its going to be £10, they turn around and say you can have the job if you'll do it for £9.
Such a small concession isn't it?
If it's a good job for a tenner, it's probably a fair job for £9.
Tough!
Tenner or nothing 8)
I don't build in a 'haggle' value.
If a customer only wants it done the trad way then I'll pass the work on to Roger ;)
Overall I think WFP is better than trad, and in my toolbox, it is the tool that will get used the most.
But on the occasions where trad is best (or the only option) then those are the tools used.
For me the WAHD is meaningless twaddle, its useful to point it out to customers, but where I am concerned I don't give a monkeys about it.
Safety WAS a big issue in converting, but not because of the WAHD.
I'm well into middle age now and this gives me the ability to continue to earn good money without leaving myself utterly exhausted.
I've a worthless pension so this also means (barring ill health) that I can continue to work well passed retirement age.
Life is now easier and I'm earning more money than before.
The advantages massively outweigh the disadvantages.
On the majority of work you will do at least as good a job as you did before and it will frequently be a more thorough job even if it isn't actually a better job.
Ian
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......................
But in reply to Neil's post, no, the customer isn't always right (though I'll let them think they are ;D)
The only time I'll compromise is on ground floor work, and even then, only if I think the customer has a valid point, if it is just because the don't like the windows cleaned with water being left on the glass then they can take a hike :o
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I agree, the customer isn't always right ... but he is the one with the cash! Unfortunately, I'm not yet in a position to turn punters away, so for me it's what the punter wants - he gets. Yes, it's totally wrong but until my bank balance is fatter, I'm stuck with them.
If only I'd done better at school instead of wasting my time playing with Jackie Su****'s massive jugs behind the Pacman machine at the local cafe.............
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looool at that last comment. Thats how school went for me aswell, lol.
Id love to get a WFP but there pretty expensive for my bank balance and as im starting out im sticking with a pair of ladders and some rubber mats so that the dont slip, LOL!.
If i choose to go commercial when the bank balance is bigger then i will defo get a WFP but ill always have family who are willing to come into the business and do the domestic side of things, which is where im lucky really.
I hope by the end of 2006 i can afford to employ a right hand man, it wil be someone from the family but at least its sum1 i can trust and sum1 i can tell what to do and they wont give me cheek, lol.
I want a multi trade, i will eventually go into guttering and UPVC Frame cleaning when the moneys higher, as well as doing windows, by that time ill have a selection of employees.
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maybe not the time of year to offer this advice but think twice about employing family or even close friends. It can be a sure fire way to damage relationships.
Good luck though ;D
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think twice about employing family or even close friends. It can be a sure fire way to damage relationships
I totally agree.
about 15 years ago i went into business with a freind and it did not work out and we ended going our own way
But now i employ my son and that works out great for both of us.
He does it the way i shown him so im happy, the customers are happy and so is he.
I moan at him from time to time as now and then he thinks windows don't have corners.
But he's only 17 and at that age they think they know better.
I also employed my brother and that worked out great also until he moved away.
So for me close family works out but not freinds.
Paul
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Id love to get a WFP but there pretty expensive for my bank balance and as im starting out im sticking with a pair of ladders and some rubber mats so that the dont slip, LOL!.
If you haven't already done so, add a pair of ladder mitts too. IMO they are one of the best ladder safety devices ever invented (apart from rungs LOL).
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Ahh, the thread is now running out of steam, time to lock I think!
Too many replies are veering.
Hats off though, its been a good thread ;)
Ian (in moderator mode)