Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Klean07 on December 24, 2011, 04:07:17 pm
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http://www.hse.gov.uk/falls/casestudies/ladders.htm
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interesting, some company was fined about £80k this week over a death of a self employed maintenance worker, (he fell through a roof, aged about 70)
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Read and understood.
I am 100% trad therefore am up and down my ladders day in, day out. I am never complacent, and take great care when using them. If I feel that it is not safe to reach a certain window, such as above a sloping ledge or on ground that slopes away or sideways, I don't do it. And I would never expect anyone to do anything I wouldn't be prepared to do myself.
John
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Ladders are illegal
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come on lads, most tradders aint bothered if they are banned, hell they aint bothered about signing on as well, lol
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;D
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its a shame the HSE are not as concerned over the use of nuclear fuels and messing about with GM foods ??? Now google the number of deaths from prescribed pharmaceutical drugs its probably safer up that ladder if used properly than visiting your doctor
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was scary how many deaths and injuries from falling from height.
Some of our custys love the fact we are not up ladders so much anymore. Some tho want us to go back to it, even after ali (my wwife) said about me risking injury and the amount of people killed, they still preferred it!!! ??? :o >:(
You got to think bout yourself, most of your customers wont!
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i love it when a custy says cant you use a ladder, no for insurance reasons then say this
if i fall of a ladder i get done and you get done for letting me use a ladder, if you watch sky they drill holes in the wall to secure the ladder before they put a dish up, plus there was a builder who fell off a ladder think he was using it to get on to a garage roof height building, because the women insisted he use it and not go throught the house to get out of the door on to the roof, he fell sued h and s done him, the company and the women, the judge ruled they all where responsible for a !/3 of the damage, basically the women ended up selling here house to pay the builder, as her insurance wouldnt cover it as they said she should of let him use the safest method
(true that)
then point out why hose is yellow and where a high viz, all health and safety
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come on lads, most tradders aint bothered if they are banned, hell they aint bothered about signing on as well, lol
Is it true they are banned in the UK? No problem for me, as I don't live and work in the UK! :P
John
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ladders aint banned, they might be in ireland, but not great britain
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(true that)
then point out why hose is yellow and where a high viz, all health and safety
If they trip on a hose it doesnt make any difference what colour it is, especially if they are colourblind or partially sighted, old or infirm :o
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i know, but i claim it has to be yellow or a bright colour so it can be seen better
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ladders aint banned, they might be in ireland, but not great britain
Definitely not banned in Ireland. Every other w/c I have met in my town is trad. I've not seen one wfp w/c in the 5 months I have been here. It always amuses me that wfp w/c's always pull the 'Ladders are banned' card, not because they are concerned about the welfare of tradders (you know full well they want to take over our businesses and couldn't give a rat's backside whether we fall off our so called banned ladders), but because they are insecure about themselves and have to try to put us down in order that they may boast about how good their pole is. ;D
In my (humble) opinion, guys that fall from ladders are those who either a) are in too much of a hurry and don't take the necessary time and care, b) who don't use them regularly and forget how to use them properly, c) are overconfident or complacent.
As I have said many times before, there is room for both wfp and trad. My preferred method is trad, and I will happily stick with it. Thank you very much. :P
John
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Ladders aren't banned, but they are restricted.
Its very, VERY hard to be a trad window cleaner anywhere in Europe (all work at height law is based on the same EU document & is word for word identical in many countries) and stay within the letter of the law. The law basically states that if there is an alternative to working at height then you must use it.
Financial constraints are taken into account, but with a basic WFP setup costing only about £500 then anyone in business longer than a year or two can't really use that excuse.
Duration of work is also a factor,.. if it will only take 5 minutes up a ladder, then a cherry picker & the associated costs would not be deemed a practicable alternative. If you're up & down ladders all day ever day though it would be hard to argue that your ladder work is short duration.
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Ladders are illegal
i see by your name/avator that you must be a retained fire fighter. so if ladders are illegal how do you get to upperfloors.
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only firefighter are allowed to use ladders, that is why they are all wc on the side,
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only firefighter are allowed to use ladders, that is why they are all wc on the side,
So it's OK for a firefighter to be a trad cleaner, but no-one else?
John
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;D ;D
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Ladders are illegal
The Regulations do not ban the use of ladders. Ladders can be used for low-risk, short-duration work and where a risk assessment shows that other more suitable work equipment is not appropriate because of the location.
Schedule 6 of the Work at Height Regulations link to external website deals with the requirements for ladders. For more information on ladder safety, see: Safe use of ladders and stepladders PDF.
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The Regulations do not ban the use of ladders. Ladders can be used for low-risk, short-duration work and where a risk assessment shows that other more suitable work equipment is not appropriate because of the location.
In your opinion, does the average trad cleaner fall into the "Low-risk, short-duration" category?
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The Regulations do not ban the use of ladders. Ladders can be used for low-risk, short-duration work and where a risk assessment shows that other more suitable work equipment is not appropriate because of the location.
In your opinion, does the average trad cleaner fall into the "Low-risk, short-duration" category?
wfp is not suitable for ALL work sometime it is safer to use tradition cleaning with a ladder.
if you look at my first reply it was to a user saying that ladders are banned ladders are not banned.
but im off now as my kid are ready to open their presents and its christmas day ;D ;D see you latter suckers you can all spend your time today discussing the ladder vs wfp topic ::) ::)
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Whether restricted by law or not we then get into the derivative insurance situation.
For example: Mortgage Accident Insurance.
If you are trad you might want to check with your mortgage lender that you are actually covered if you are injured in a fall. The fact that H&S allow short term use of ladders ( though they do add 'if there is no safer option' ) doesn't stop the insurance company arguing that you weren't taking all necessary care because you had climbed a ladder and not used a safer option in the first place.
Because we all know what kind and reasonable people the insurance companies are........ ;D
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who gives a toss what method anyone uses to clean windows? if im wfp or trad who does it matter to? i dont care what others use. it makes no difference to me. some customers dont like blokes on a ladder and some dont like windows left wet and see wfp as some way of cheating. who cares? if im wfp why should i care what some other guy uses?
some people need to concentrate on running their own business and stop worrying about what everyone else uses to clean bloody windows for gods sake. get a life and get enough work so you dont need to worry about other window cleaners.
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who gives a toss what method anyone uses to clean windows? if im wfp or trad who does it matter to? i dont care what others use. it makes no difference to me. some customers dont like blokes on a ladder and some dont like windows left wet and see wfp as some way of cheating. who cares? if im wfp why should i care what some other guy uses?
some people need to concentrate on running their own business and stop worrying about what everyone else uses to clean bloody windows for gods sake. get a life and get enough work so you dont need to worry about other window cleaners.
;D ;D welcome back ginger sue (or was it kate, i cant remember! 8) You fan those flames, lol
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Ah yes. The traditional time of goodwill.....
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Ah yes. The traditional time of goodwill.....
;D
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Not me Im afraid AS....
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the ginger one knows..... ;) so your ginger too then!
I'm all cosied up here, should b on here tho! ;D ;)
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Ladders are illegal
i see by your name/avator that you must be a retained fire fighter. so if ladders are illegal how do you get to upperfloors.
Love how easy you lot bite ;D
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But they are illegal ;D
Go WFP
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Yes Ladders are legal (up to a point of about 28ft ish ? )but you wont get on a site or much new commercial work using them.
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who gives a toss what method anyone uses to clean windows? if im wfp or trad who does it matter to? i dont care what others use. it makes no difference to me. some customers dont like blokes on a ladder and some dont like windows left wet and see wfp as some way of cheating. who cares? if im wfp why should i care what some other guy uses?
some people need to concentrate on running their own business and stop worrying about what everyone else uses to clean bloody windows for gods sake. get a life and get enough work so you dont need to worry about other window cleaners.
Exactly!
John
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who gives a toss what method anyone uses to clean windows? if im wfp or trad who does it matter to? i dont care what others use. it makes no difference to me. some customers dont like blokes on a ladder and some dont like windows left wet and see wfp as some way of cheating. who cares? if im wfp why should i care what some other guy uses?
some people need to concentrate on running their own business and stop worrying about what everyone else uses to clean bloody windows for gods sake. get a life and get enough work so you dont need to worry about other window cleaners.
Exactly!
John
No one gives a toss until AFTER an accident,.. thats the sad thing. :'(
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Far more people die from driving on the roads than falling from ladders, does that mean we should all walk to work from now on?
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If ladders are only to be used for short duration work then what about painters and decorators, often see them working way above 9 metres on ladders that are not footed or tied, is it just us window cleaners that are getting picked on.
Also the insurance regarding carrying water in our vans and getting charged extra for this, FFS it is cargo and more often than not it is lashed down or fixed by some means, what about builders, cement mixers and bags of sand etc just thrown in the back, a half ton of bricks, tools, you name it but do they get penalised with their insurance, I think not.
As usual you try to be safe and reduce accidents and you get f***ed over for it.
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i still dont understand why wfp guys always start these topics. is it because they lose work to trad or is it because the customers have a choice and choose trad over wfp or what? Why should it matter to wfp guys who uses trad? i dont care what they use. when i see people running around on roof tiles and busting them or using ladders that are dangerous then thats a point to make. but why do trad guys seem to matter to wfp guys? i dont see the problem.
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its a shame the HSE are not as concerned over the use of nuclear fuels and messing about with GM foods ??? Now google the number of deaths from prescribed pharmaceutical drugs its probably safer up that ladder if used properly than visiting your doctor
Depends who your doctor is ;D
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i still dont understand why wfp guys always start these topics. is it because they lose work to trad or is it because the customers have a choice and choose trad over wfp or what? Why should it matter to wfp guys who uses trad? i dont care what they use. when i see people running around on roof tiles and busting them or using ladders that are dangerous then thats a point to make. but why do trad guys seem to matter to wfp guys? i dont see the problem.
It wasn't specificly aimed at trad wcs it was just something I saw whilst doing some browsing the other day.
I still use ladders for cleaning gutters etc. However when I do a gutter I always get someone else in now to foot the ladder. My son fell off my ladder earlier this year whilst cleaning a con roof. I was working from stepladders from the front and from my ladder at the side. Well due to the fact that the path was a bit slippy he fell off and grazed/bruised his arms. This shook him up big time so hes more carefull these days!!
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But they are illegal ;D
Go WFP
ladders are still sold in shops, so why sell them if they are illegal.
restricted is the correct word.
i thought the law was that ladders should only be used if there is no other viable method.
if you dont own a wfp system then ladders is your only viable option (scaffolding and cherry picker especially on deomestic isnt viable or economical).
if you do own a wfp system and your doing a builders clean then a ladder may be needed. but your not up there long enough to be like the man from sky.
as longs you are competent, you have risk assessed the task in hand and you have considered further safety measures then whats the fuss. but never be complacent
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But they are illegal ;D
Go WFP
as longs you are competent, you have risk assessed the task in hand and you have considered further safety measures then whats the fuss. but never be complacent
Exactly. Ladder are not the problem. Any accident arising from the use of the ladders is due to human error, not the ladder itself.
Yes, I have had some falls from my ladders, the last one from a height of 15 feet or so. Each time I was at fault, and was fortunate to walk away unscathed. This hasn't bred complacency, as each occasion was different, and I learned from each mistake that I made and have not repeated them.
John
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If ladders are only to be used for short duration work then what about painters and decorators, often see them working way above 9 metres on ladders that are not footed or tied, is it just us window cleaners that are getting picked on.
Window cleaners have a practicable alternative method that is as quick as ladders (mostly quicker), gives as good results (often better), and is available for a very small price really.
Painters & decorators (as well as many other trades that use ladders) don't have such a readily available alternative, and basically have no choice but to use ladders.
This is the distinction,.. so in most cases, going by the letter of the law, it is technically illegal for a window cleaner to use ladders full time. There is the odd job that isn't suitable for wfp & might be better completed using ladders (with a proper risk assessment, method statement & ladder safety devices), but in general wfp is a practicable alternative & should be used.
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yeah nathanael but what if ladder users dont give a toss about all that and just keep going. would you care?
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I still fail to understand why anyone would really be bothered as to whether we use wfp or ladders. We should be free to choose, and each method suits some guys better than the other. Neither is wrong. Regrettably, we live in a world where humankind in general is self-centred and self-serving, and so who really (as in genuinely) cares if a guys falls off his ladder?
Is there a safer method of getting from A to B than driving our cars/vans? Yes. We can walk and push our water tanks or ladders on a handcart from one job to the next. Is anyone going to do this though? No I thought not.
John
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Far more people die from driving on the roads than falling from ladders, does that mean we should all walk to work from now on?
Far more people drive on the roads than use ladders,so your comparison isn't really accurate
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yeah nathanael but what if ladder users dont give a toss about all that and just keep going. would you care?
It does bother me to be honest because:
1. I've told my customers why I don't use ladders, and whenever they see the local guys who are aware of the law but still use ladders working away it could cause my customers to doubt my word or lessen the importance of the safety message behind it.
2. Because every member of the public who is aware of the law but still see's window cleaners using ladders regularly is going to have a lower opinion of the industry.
3. Its plain stupid to risk your life on ladders every day when the alternative is so good!
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If your customers see a ginger bloke driving like a lunatic do they lower their opinion of all ginger peoples driving abilities?
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Did trad for 20 years or so ,two years on wfp now but still have few trad ,use ladder slip mat and lots of common sense . always glad to get back to my WFP after a bit of ladder work AND I can put my gloves on in winter which is virtually impossible with ladder-squeegee work - does scare me though when I see some guy up a ladder over a spikey railing at an acute angle in the wet with no safety precautions -often feel like commenting but have resisted so far ,I am 53 and maybe Im so much more sensible with age - I certainly wouldnt climb onto a pitch roof ,do dormer on one side holding on with one hand , climb over apex and do dormer on other side like I used to do !I got away with it though ,plenty dont.
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those dormas ae 2 men work every time on ladders. pitch roofs too steep.
but the picture shown on this topic the roof not steep enough in my opinion.
i was wondering how the photographer of the pic found the time to take the pic
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Why don't we just mind our own businesses and just get on with running them our way. What's it got to do with anyone else anyway?
Nathanael said it really. He's more worried what his customers think when they see a tradder at work. Why worry when/if they are happy with his work? They won't be looking at/for anyone else to clean their windows. As I said, it's not that there is any genuine concern for the tradder. I've already said this, and yet no one has posted that they disagree.
Compare this to the chap who has bought a brand new Ford Fiesta, with his neighbour who runs a Morris Minor. Should the latter go out and buy a new car just because his old car doesn't have the latest safety technology?
John
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those dormas ae 2 men work every time on ladders. pitch roofs too steep.
but the picture shown on this topic the roof not steep enough in my opinion.
i was wondering how the photographer of the pic found the time to take the pic
I'm a window cleaner. People that clean windows including yours truly only work part-time hours!! Don't they?
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yeah nathanael but what if ladder users dont give a toss about all that and just keep going. would you care?
It does bother me to be honest because:
1. I've told my customers why I don't use ladders, and whenever they see the local guys who are aware of the law but still use ladders working away it could cause my customers to doubt my word or lessen the importance of the safety message behind it.
2. Because every member of the public who is aware of the law but still see's window cleaners using ladders regularly is going to have a lower opinion of the industry.
3. Its plain stupid to risk your life on ladders every day when the alternative is so good!
never thought a person would admit it nathanael. thats why most of this wfp snobbery from some people exists. (i know your opinions and respect them and you) but they have told all who will listen that ladders are banned and its against the law to use them. then their customer see a trad guy and this blows the wfp guys story out of the water. makes them angry so they try to bully trads to swapping to wfp on here.
not saying you are a culprit nathanael. but the tripe that gets spouted on here needs showing up for what it is. like johnny b has said. shut up and mind your own business's. leave each person to work with what they want.
i dont give a monkeys who uses what. i just mind that my work gets done and i earn what i need. some on here need to stop the bully tactics and remember that god gave us 2 ears and 1 mouth. try using them in proportion.
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john f top post ;)
as i have told you lot on here loads of times;been sacked off jobs loads of times
by custys that dont want wfp;and i would not do them with ladders;
as long as i make a wage i dont care who breaks their neck
just wont be me but you can fall off ladders you can also trip over hose ;)
pros and cons
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I do trad and wfp i make more money using wfp but i must say you get a more satisfaction doing trad and in my opinion it looks better. like matey said there are dangers in a lot of jobs . but they still get done . i dont go along with what a lot of what is said on here about wfp is better i think its the insecurities of some who use wfp. they know it takes a bit of time to get up to speed doing it trad where it took me 3 minutes to learn how to use a pole . and i dont get complaints on either. trad rules but i dont care so long as i am earning. im not scared of a ladder.
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I do trad and wfp i make more money using wfp but i must say you get a more satisfaction doing trad and in my opinion it looks better. like matey said there are dangers in a lot of jobs . but they still get done . i dont go along with what a lot of what is said on here about wfp is better i think its the insecurities of some who use wfp. they know it takes a bit of time to get up to speed doing it trad where it took me 3 minutes to learn how to use a pole . and i dont get complaints on either. trad rules but i dont care so long as i am earning. im not scared of a ladder.
Your spot on i to do both i much preffer the trad result dry window, but have to admit the pole is much quicker it's saved me a few times on quotes ive messed up on, i dont like leaving them wet but when i drive past later they look very good and never had a complaint yet.But im like you as long as they are getting done and im earning either way will do me.