Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Luc on November 22, 2011, 08:54:06 am
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ok i know i might be opening up a can of worms here, but who cleans all the time with say detergent( ie crystal green, formula 90) in the final rinse. i rinse with just water most of time and fibre and fabric rinse of wool and most upholstery and sometimes crystal green on trashed jobs.
But, i had a chat to a carpet cleaner over the weekend who uses prochem double clean in his TM on almost everything and has been for the last 5 years.
I said surely you dont use it on wool or upholstery? but yes on EVERYTHING ???.
he agreed he would not use it on anything he suspected where the colour could run tho. he is always busy and gets a lot of repeat work and said he has never had any problems with wool carpets or carpets getting dirty. he's reasoning is surely prochem would not make a product that would reattract dirt or cause problems.
Whats your take??
luc
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Luc,
My advice, for what it's worth - don't follow his example and keep doing what you are doing.
Simon
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simon, i know better :) and plan not to follow his example. im just amazed he has never any problems :o.
it just got me to wondering how may other cleaners out there cleaned the same way
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I suspect that it is because he has "always done that"
20 years ago the majority of us put detergent in the tank with water as hot as we could get it out of the tap, and blasted away at the carpet.
It is only in relative recent times that pre-spray and clear water rinsing were advocated by the masses, so as I said at the begining he has probably always done that without any problems and cannot see why he should change.
As Simon says though I should stick to the way you do things....
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I used a porty for 23 years before going TM and I always used a detergent rinse.
One of my more often detergents was Crystal green. It did an excellent job on everything and I never had any call backs, just lots of happy repeat customers.
It did leave a slightly sticky feel to the carpet straight after cleaning, but this dried to a minute dry residue and didn't lead to any resoiling problems.
In the 9 years since, with the TM, I have used detergent rinses and plain water rinses. With the right detergent I see no problems using this as a rinse.
If you are achieving the desired result with the way you do things, carry on doing it that way and take no notice of how others do, but why be surprised that many use detergents as their rinse. If no one did, there wouldn't be any available from suppliers, yet there is an absolute vast range.
Dave.
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I use a detergent rinse 90% of the time, usually f90
lets take upholstery...... if you prespray, agitate then rinse with freshwater what do you do if it doesn't come clean? you repeat the process until it does clean..... so more scrubbing and more wetting the fabric
what do you think does more harm to a fabric constant scrubbing or a detergent rinse?
a pre spray & detergent rinse gets the fabric clean without all the extra scrubbing and over-wetting the fabric.
same with a carpet if you freshwater rinse and it does not come clean then you have to repeat the process, but with a detergent you can just leave it and carry on while the detergent slowly works on the remaining soil...... then once you finish the room go over the dirty area again and it will come clean... no need to pre spray and scrub again.
people often will use the argument that the pre spray does the cleaning. then all you need to do is rinse. but what the pre spray does is make a 'soup of dirt' it can still be sticky and horrible..... it is not always just sitting there waiting to be rinsed away( with cold water) it might still need a helping hand to be removed,
detergents are not the bad guy that some people think and its not a crime to use them
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What confuses me when using a detergent rinse is how can it work when it basically only in contact with the carpet for a matter of seconds before the vacs suck most of it up. ??? ??? ???
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wayne go into the kitchen and drip boiling water on your arm, don't worry it will on your arm be on a second not enough time to do anything...... even better drip sulphuric acid on your arm.
at the cleaning show years ago I saw a demonstration of a guy spray a chemical across a carpet with shoe polish on it..... the chemical just washed a line straight through the polish.
time is not always relevant
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I think your friend has got away with it because of his tm,i think with a portable he would of had some problems
i have extracted with my tm without acid rinse by mistake,because of the power of the vacuum it sometimes wont matter
gary
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wayne go into the kitchen and drip boiling water on your arm, don't worry it will on your arm be on a second not enough time to do anything...... even better drip sulphuric acid on your arm.
at the cleaning show years ago I saw a demonstration of a guy spray a chemical across a carpet with shoe polish on it..... the chemical just washed a line straight through the polish.
time is not always relevant
Mike your talking about very aggressive chemicals here which is a total different ball game.
Go and spray sulphuric acid on a cotton suite or even better a draylon suite and see what happens to it in just a few short seconds ::)
Detergents that we use need a good dwell time with out aggitation and even with a dwell time of several wet hours will not do a fraction of damage compared to seconds of something like sulphuric acid.
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Oh I forgot to add. im a presparay and aggitate and rince with plain water man on both upholstery and carpets. I find using the right chemical, aggitation and heat gives me first class results first time ;)
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Paul my comparisons was extreme, the point i was trying to answer was Wayne's query..... if a detergent can have an effect within the short time it is in contact with the fibre or carpet. these are chemical designed to do just that
look at Sod-met, this can have a massive visual effect within seconds. A Detergents can remove soil within the small amount of time it is in contact with the carpet.
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On the Ashby's Course they used to advise use their supreme product ph 11 followed by an acid spray to neutralise's
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what about using something like cg as a prespray and then extract with just hot water? surely better and more benificial than rinsing with it in the tank. Having said that mike is right if you clean the whole carpet with it and then go back to any dark patches after time it does come straight out. With all the different chems on the market it can all become very confusing. Must add i have done this a few times but usually with ff in tank for rinse as cheap anyway and smells lovely.
paul
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interesting topic... Surly when using a detergent as the rinse will not do any harm if you carry out the correct tesing before use and stick to the dilution rates as recommended. These chemicals are surly tested by the manufacuars and the rate of dilution we are given by them is for optimum cleaning results if used in the correct circumstances? My advice to anyone using any form of chemical is "always read the label and stick to what it says on the label" How many times have we all gone to that customer who has used the dreadid Rug Doctor and thought ..."well it is dirty so I will add some more detergent".
Me personally... am a prespray and acidic rinse guy now but ocassioally I do a detergent rinse without presraying if only lightly soiled with great results. I strictly go by label instructions and always get good result.
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I'm a pre spray and water rinse advocate myself. However I have to a agree with Mike that sometimes when you spray a stain it just disappears so time isn't always an issue.
With a detergent rinse though the detergent is still left in the carpet. I wouldn't wash my hair and not rinse it. I wouldn't wash my car and not rinse it. I wouldn't wash my dishes and not rinse them. But this guy gets good results and has happy customers though so i suppose that's what its all about at the end of the day.
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why do people think the...... washing your hair analogy bears any relevance to carpet cleaning, of course you wouldn't leave shampoo in your hair without rinsing..... its a thick shampoo that you apply neat to your hair...... of course it needs to be rinsed out.
try diluting it 800-1 then removing 85% of it and see how your hair feels
when you clean with a powered detergent you are leaving (less than) on average a teaspoon of chemical on a living room carpet this is before it reverts to its powdered state and is removed up by the customer when subsequently vacuuming......which most modern chemical are designed to do
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Actually F90 is designed to crystalise use on drying, so any left in the carpet will crystalise and simply vacuum away next time it's vacced - no residue.
Julie Roberts of Chem spec told me that.
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Put some pre mixed cleaning solution on a white plate let it dry and see how much residue you get
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for what its worth.... have taken stock of dfc 210 (pe spray)... and dfc 105 ( rinse agent )...( both detergent free)
i have previously used 105 as both a pre spray and rinse solution... with good results.
i have now used the 210 which is specific pre spray to be used in conjuction with 105... i must say i'm very impressed ... added with tadge energiser as a booster if need be... i cant say im disappointed..
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Put some pre mixed cleaning solution on a white plate let it dry and see how much residue you get
With respect Ian, that's not the same. Whilst rinsing with a detergent you are removing the majority of the solution as a whole from the carpet, not just the water. In your example only the water is being removed by evaporation leaving all the detergent on the plate, that's why there is so much.
You will find that if you do the same with an acid rinse solution you will get the same result.
I think this is why some have a mind block over detergent rinsing. Their reasoning seems to be that a plain water rinse removes the prespray whereas a detergent rinse leaves some detergent in the fibres. In fact both leaves an amount of detergent in the carpet, but the best extraction detergents are thus designed to do so.
Dave.
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Hi Guys
There are so many factors which can effect this.
If you are applying a high pH, highly buffered pre spray, then a little squirt of pH 4 rinse is going to make virually no diffrence.
Volume is another very important factor, if you are rinsing with a TM then virtually no detergent will be left.
Cheers
Doug
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Whilst rinsing with a detergent you are removing the majority of the solution as a whole from the carpet, not just the water. In your example only the water is being removed by evaporation leaving all the detergent on the plate, that's why there is so much.
How can that be?
If 5% of the volume of solution put into the carpet is a detergent then from the moment you stop extraction there will still be 5% of that solution in the carpet.
From that point the water element evaporates off leaving the detergent part still there, which will reform as a solid.
Anyone who has done window cleaning with purified water will understand what I am saying, because that's why you have white spots left on glass if you use tap water.....the white spots being the deposits that were held in suspension as tap water. Purified water having nothing in it can't leave deposits behind, hence the clean spotless windows.
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Whilst rinsing with a detergent you are removing the majority of the solution as a whole from the carpet, not just the water. In your example only the water is being removed by evaporation leaving all the detergent on the plate, that's why there is so much.
How can that be?
If 5% of the volume of solution put into the carpet is a detergent then from the moment you stop extraction there will still be 5% of that solution in the carpet.
From that point the water element evaporates off leaving the detergent part still there, which will reform as a solid.
Anyone who has done window cleaning with purified water will understand what I am saying, because that's why you have white spots left on glass if you use tap water.....the white spots being the deposits that were held in suspension as tap water. Purified water having nothing in it can't leave deposits behind, hence the clean spotless windows.
Sorry Neil, I don't agree.
By your example of the 100% solution, 95% is water and 5% is detergent.
For arguements sake lets say just 90% of the solution is removed during extraction.
That is 90 % of the water plus 90% of the detergent as it is all extracted as a whole, you are not only extracting water but the detergent part too.
90% of 5% detergent is 4.5% leaving 0.5% or almost zero in the carpet.
In actual fact with a powerful TM more than 90% is extracted.
Dave.
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Sorry Neil, I don't agree.
By your example of the 100% solution, 95% is water and 5% is detergent.
For arguements sake lets say just 90% of the solution is removed during extraction.
That is 90 % of the water plus 90% of the detergent as it is all extracted as a whole, you are not only extracting water but the detergent part too.
90% of 5% detergent is 4.5% leaving 0.5% or almost zero in the carpet.
In actual fact with a powerful TM more than 90% is extracted.
Dave.
Dave.
A litre of detergent solution will contain water, detergent and all the other stuff that the water boards put into the it. You can keep sucking it all you want but there will always be the same percentage of chemicals in that water when you stop....you can't suck the chemicals out and just leave pure water behind. Hence my example about window cleaners and the water they use.
If you are using detergents to rinse with then at the same time as you are extracting you are replacing with new detergent mix....you can't alter that.
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As an afterthought we are talking about the same thing aren't we ie those who mix up a detergent mix that goes in the tank, not those who use just water (or acid rinse) in the tank?
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using Dave's figures.......
if using a detergent means you will leave 0.5% of cleaning detergent in the carpet then you will actually leave the carpet cleaner than a fresh water rinse, as I believe a detergent rinse removes more dirt than the fresh water rinse so...... all a detergent needs to do is remove 0.5% more dirt to leave the carpet with less foreign matter than the fresh water rinse
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As an afterthought we are talking about the same thing aren't we ie those who mix up a detergent mix that goes in the tank, not those who use just water (or acid rinse) in the tank?
Neil, we seem to be on totally diferent wavelengths here.
We are talking about a detergent mix in the tank or in the chem bottle as with TMs.
What the water people put in the water is irrelevent as it both methods use water.
When you stop extracting, the solution flow to the carpet also stops. Actually it stops before as you finish with further passes without any solution flow.
You are correct that as extraction takes place further solution is added, but this too is being extracted all the time at the same percentages as the on the very first pass with the wand.
Dave.
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i do understand what neil is saying! the percentage of the moisture left in the carpet is still the same percentage in the tank!! That right Neil? :)
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i do understand what neil is saying! the percentage of the moisture left in the carpet is still the same percentage in the tank!! That right Neil? :)
Of course it is.
Let's try it this way. Put a red colourant in the solution tank mix, extract all you want and unless you have the worlds best extractor which takes everything out leaving the carpet dry then there will be a red colourant mix still in the carpet. The water will evapoate away but the colourant will remain but some seem to believe puttin more of this mix in somehow magically gets it all back out again and more. Alternatively extract with just water and eventually you will remove all the colourant and just leave water behind)
We can keep this going all night if you want because I know I'm right and science proves you can't simply extract the bits out of water that you don't want to be left behind. (unless we start talking reverse osmosis - anyone got one of those fitted to their CC machine - thought not)
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Neil,
I see what you are saying now. Yes the same 5% of the solution left in the carpet will be detergent.
However what I am saying is, that it is only 5% of the 10% of solution left in the carpet after extraction has finished, or 0.5% of the original amount of detergent added to the water in the tank.
If the dilution rate is say, one scoop per gallon of water in the tank, then if for example, it takes 6 gallon say to clean an average lounge, that's 6 scoops of detergent.
After extraction only 10% solution remains in the lounge carpet, of which 0.6% of a scoop is detergent (10% of 6 scoops).
As this is spread throughout the lounge carpet, just over half a scoop of dry detergent left behind, is so small an amount it is neither here nor there.
Some people go on as though there is abundance of detergent left in the carpet or upholstery and this is just not the case.
If there was a lot of detergent left in the carpet through using a detergent rinse, then we would have problems, but there isn't.
I'm not arguing with you, I think we just misunderstood each other.
Dave.
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If the dilution rate is say, one scoop per gallon of water in the tank, then if for example, it takes 6 gallon say to clean an average lounge, that's 6 scoops of detergent.
After extraction only 10% solution remains in the lounge carpet, of which 0.6% of a scoop is detergent (10% of 6 scoops).
As this is spread throughout the lounge carpet, just over half a scoop of dry detergent left behind, is so small an amount it is neither here nor there.
And on that point we are friends again as we are both correct ;D
I'm not disputing that you can get away with leaving a certain low % of detergent in a carpet which will have little after effect. It all depends on your goal, my personal objective is always to get all dirt-contaminants-solutions out but with some jobs like the pub I've got coming up will not get the results with just a prespray and water rinse, and afterall it's going to get slaughtered over the next few weeks so what's the point in leaving it perfectly neutral.
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One point that I have not seen anybody make is that with a truckmount the majority of us use a much lower dilutuion rate in our solution containers. For instrance on my machine I would put 30 scoops of hydra dri into the tank and that could clean 1000- 1500 square mtrs. I always prespray and aggitate and more than often rinse with hydradri but the dilution rates are only a fraction of what I was using with portables. This would be a very imporant facvtor if using crista green or double clean........
Peter
www.carpetcleanercardiff.com (http://www.carpetcleanercardiff.com)
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Like Mike and a few others, I use detergent in the tank 90% of the time on upholstery and carpets.
I go through 11 tubs of formula90 or 110kg a year!
The results are clear to see. If you want maximum soil extraction (and especially on mingers) you need a detergent in the tank.
Big companys like Prochem and Chemspec wouldn't invest $$$$ a year in R&D or sell a product that had a negative effect on carpets.
As already said, only a little detergent gets lift in the carpet and what is left is self neutralizing anyways.