Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: poleman on December 01, 2005, 07:00:00 pm
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I am chairing the PWCA meeting tomorrow, and a lot of time is going to be given to member benefits.
So this would be a great opportunity, for you to have an in-put into the meeting.
What benefits would make a difference to your business from a trade association.
Andy
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Andy,
Are you now the Chairman?
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Nope hosting and chairing the meeting Tosh, what member benefits would make you join a trade association.
Andy
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Andy,
To be honest, I don't know! I understand where you're comming from though.
If I was a large window cleaning companing employing five to twenty+ window cleaners; I'd love to be health and safety certified by a professional organisation. And even better if large blue chip companies understood my certification and chose me because of it.
But, to be honest, I'm a small 'Mickey Mouse' organisation; I honestly don't think any organisation could offer me anything life-changing.
Not yet, anyway.
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Andy,
What benefits do you think would help the sole trader or partnership?
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HOW ABOUT SEEING OR APPROACHING LOCAL COUNCILS FOR A LICENCE.
that would buff up our image and get rid of dole cheats and winter dodgers u know the type I mean who underestimate jobs to get work for the summer.
gaza
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Life-changing, if I could do that, I would be God. :D
My view, would be the normal ones, insurnace, discount on tools, and training, whats your views!
Andy
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I totaly agree Andy. If we were licenced then it will keep out the people who are only looking for a bit of extra beer money.
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Andy,
In my humble opinion and for what its worth, you have to offer your members something that ensures it will directly benefit their busines however large or small it may be.
Apart from offering discounts, support and training (all of which can be sourced by other methods) there must be something that will make w/c 'buy into' your association as opposed to any other. Increasing revenues or making our companies credible would do it for me.
Opening a can of worms, again, I agree with Gaza. Having the 'other' logo plastered on vans, stationery ment nothing to potential customers who usually had not heard of them. If I were a consumer and wanted to employ a w/c and there WERE a licence that ment they had been vetted and approved by a fed/Ass/local council then I would use them in preference to another that had not.
The licencing scheme linked to your Ass would guarantee my application for membership if I thought I could get new clients from it and obtain credibility in the process. Anything short of that would not be much different to any other fed/ass so why the PWCA. ?
Very contrevertial I know and we have had many discussions on this forum always resulting in very strong opinions for and against a licensing system but you need to offer something 'more'.
Just a thought and given you have two scottish members traveliing down it might be worth a bit of your Agenda.
Have a productive meeting, Regards,
Sarah
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The Scottish have the licensing systems, is it the way forward for British window cleaners does level open to debate.
This is more about benefits to you, I trade association should be non-profit and give the best benefits possible.
Andy
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Ask the window cleaners in Scotland what they think of Licensing? Your then see it does not work and is just another stealth Tax.
Justin
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Maybe a national price guide. A guide that could be used to show clients national minimum rates for window cleaning.
Of course you would not need to show it to well paying clients.
It would be a help though if we could show national minium association rates.
It would serve to show clients that they are not being ripped off. DAI
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Andy,
I agree,
If helping grow my business via a credible licencing system then I see it as a benefit to my business.
Locally, if I had one and my competitors did not then I may get more new cleans - big benefit.
Justin,
Who said this licence had to be run by the local council/government. All these checks can be done by the PWCA for its members benefit. I suggest that it could be done another way and surely a new and different approach is what all these forums are for.
If its discussed and really not pheasable then no-go but what sets this Ass apart from any other in terms of benefits to me will be the deciding factor.
I still believe it is possible to do and would bring much needed credibility to the PWCA and our trade which is nutorius for fair weather cleaners giving us professional ones a bad name.
Anyway, enough of my humble opinion on this subject - it is a suggestion from me for Andy as he requested.
Hugs,
Sarah
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Well it will all depend on funds, ie. how much is in the treasury...
But..if and when funds are available.... from members
1) Heavily advertise in the public domain the legitamacy of window cleaners as tradesmen. Raise awareness.
2) Do something like "What PC" etc. UNPREJUDICED tests on equipment setups.
Informative pros and cons, in some sort of print form. I would buy that at the right price. eg. "This month we tried Fred Bloggs system for 1 day. He uses ****system from*** we compared this to ^^^^^ and honestly didn't find it any better. Loads of things you could do more concisely than at the moment.
A progressive step from open forums, don't you think?
Pj
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OK whats this about?
I have seen you do this before Matt.. I would just like to be aware of what its intended to signify.
Andrew
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I am chairing the PWCA meeting tomorrow, and a lot of time is going to be given to member benefits.
So this would be a great opportunity, for you to have an in-put into the meeting.
What benefits would make a difference to your business from a trade association.
Andy
Gentlemen,
Please keep to the subject matter.
Andrew asked the above.
Personally, I'm interested in some on-topic issues here.
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Can I turn this post on its head and pose some basic questions.
I take it the association will be displayed on members vans, literature etc and will be the catalyst to gain the interest and implied support of the public. What trade support is the ass' going to give its members other than offering membership and how is going to get the message of the ass' over to the general public.
Generally membership to trade associations is all very well as long as the 'customer' is encouraged to use its members. That encouragement comes from knowing the members are qualified in some way in their trade. That qualification comes from either being trained, assessed as worthy ie attaining a given standard or practising the trade for a period of time eg 5 years. And if the latter, what are you going to do in the case of w/c-ers who have been in the trade for only a few years
Regretably just buying into an association is not - to my mind, a very worthy support to the tradesman.
regards JohnL
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What about a web site that potential customers could access with a data base of all members showing were they are in the country could be good advertising?
Kev
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My post was not directed at anyone like Matt.
He took something personally a few days ago. No need to Matt.
You have a good website and I'm sure my suggestion would help people like you.
You've helped me. So don't get sensitive.
This topic has a few minutes of use, then it's rubbish.
Chairman has probably gone to bed now.
I just don't want the conglomerates controlling opinion
Pj
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I am still here, and taking in, will print off at 9am tomorow, so keep coming with you views.
I would like to point out I am not the chairman, but chairing and hosting the meeting.
Andy
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OK whats this about?
I have seen you do this before Matt.. I would just like to be aware of what its intended to signify.
Andrew
I typed something and then edited it, as i could just imagine some members here and on "the other board" jumping up and down again and starting the abuse of me, it was in reply to Morph's post (read below, as i might aswell make the post now)
My post was not directed at anyone like Matt.
He took something personally a few days ago. No need to Matt.
You have a good website and I'm sure my suggestion would help people like you.
You've helped me. So don't get sensitive.
This topic has a few minutes of use, then it's rubbish.
Chairman has probably gone to bed now.
I just don't want the conglomerates controlling opinion
Pj
Its forgotten now, if you reread your original post the 1 that i took offense to, you will see why i did, but thats gone and forgotten, you appolgised and thats the end of it
NOW FOR THE POST I MADE
2) Do something like "What PC" etc. UNPREJUDICED tests on equipment setups.
Informative pros and cons,
Pj
can any1 really see this happening ?? ?? ??
we know what systems would come out on top, the systems that were "in favour" of the PWCA
any1 care to take a guess at which ?? ? ??
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You are chairman tomorrow man so get yer braces on and be a wise man.
A good chairman recognises his opinion counts as much as, but no more than the rest.
The sum is equal to more than all it's parts.
Pj
If you need me I'll make tea
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Andy
i would like to see some kind of "comercail work tender list"
if you at the PWCA pushed the name forward, i can see no reason why you cannot be the name that councils etc come to to give out tenders and work
Ideally, the job would be given to the member closest, and if a few are in the region, then they take turns, so 1 gets job A, then 1 gets job B etc
this would give members a reason to join, but then again i cannot see it happening, as we know the big boys of the industry like the idea of a the comercail work being sewn up between themselves
Oh and it should make any difference if you have a Ionics, onmi or DIY system
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Andy,
My own view is that well established window cleaning companies with employees would have much to gain.
From the little I know about PWCA, I understand they wish to introduce some form of 'ISO 9000' (a borrowed phrase); a standardisation of health and safety that will be audited.
Excellent. I honestly can't fault that. A large organisation will know exactly where to go to get a company who can clean their windows; safely and according to the current Working at Height Directive.
At present, if a facilities manager wants a new window cleaner, all he can do is either contact the Federation, which doesn't carry out any checks, or go through the phone books. He may not have even heard of the NFMWC!
As far as this facilities manager knows, 'Mickey Mouse' Tosh is in the same league as the 'big boys' when asking for a quote.
So a well publicised association that carries out health and safety checks on their members is welcomed.
But what about 'Mickey Mouse' Tosh (the sole trader with a mainly residential round; the backbone of the UK window cleaning population)?
Why should he join? I honestly can't think of any reasons.
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I totaly agree Andy. If we were licenced then it will keep out the people who are only looking for a bit of extra beer money.
If it were to happen, it would need to be a licence that covered a wider area to avoid the need for several licences - especially for window cleaners that live near county boundaries such as myself. It is also important that it is not used as a money grabbing excercise for councils but just to cover the costs involved. Personally, I dislike too much regulation anyway. I think that we have allowed governments at all levels too much power over our lives and I'm loathe to encourage them any more. They seem to get drunk on their power. The more they get, the more they want. Power junkies.
the issues with them are:
who would really police it ?? ?? ?
NO-ONE
so the honest WC'er would get his, and the "joe smoe beer money bloke" wouldnt bother
anyother payment made by the honest bloke, same as PL insurance, tax and NI conts
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But what about 'Mickey Mouse' Tosh (the sole trader with a mainly residential round; the backbone of the UK window cleaning population)?
Why should he join? I honestly can't think of any reasons.
Tosh my friend ;)
Think Big...... BE BIG
;)
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I totaly agree Andy. If we were licenced then it will keep out the people who are only looking for a bit of extra beer money.
If it were to happen, it would need to be a licence that covered a wider area to avoid the need for several licences - especially for window cleaners that live near county boundaries such as myself. It is also important that it is not used as a money grabbing excercise for councils but just to cover the costs involved. Personally, I dislike too much regulation anyway. I think that we have allowed governments at all levels too much power over our lives and I'm loathe to encourage them any more. They seem to get drunk on their power. The more they get, the more they want. Power junkies.
the issues with them are:
who would really police it ?? ?? ?
NO-ONE
so the honest WC'er would get his, and the "joe smoe beer money bloke" wouldnt bother
anyother payment made by the honest bloke, same as PL insurance, tax and NI conts
Oops sorry Matt. I deleted that post as I realised that it had drifted away from the original subject. I sdidn't expect anyone to respond so quickly after me posting it.
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I totaly agree Andy. If we were licenced then it will keep out the people who are only looking for a bit of extra beer money.
If it were to happen, it would need to be a licence that covered a wider area to avoid the need for several licences - especially for window cleaners that live near county boundaries such as myself. It is also important that it is not used as a money grabbing excercise for councils but just to cover the costs involved. Personally, I dislike too much regulation anyway. I think that we have allowed governments at all levels too much power over our lives and I'm loathe to encourage them any more. They seem to get drunk on their power. The more they get, the more they want. Power junkies.
the issues with them are:
who would really police it ?? ?? ?
NO-ONE
so the honest WC'er would get his, and the "joe smoe beer money bloke" wouldnt bother
anyother payment made by the honest bloke, same as PL insurance, tax and NI conts
Oops sorry Matt. I deleted that post as I realised that it had drifted away from the original subject. I sdidn't expect anyone to respond so quickly after me posting it.
no probs
i dont mind people making me look crazy ;) ;) ;)
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Point taken Tosh.
I have been seriously considering what I would like to see from the PWCA and will post on this but to see a "." got me interested as to its signifigance as I have seen it a few times on this forum and it baffles me so I asked a question. Perhaps I should have started a thread to try and get an answer.
I know that Andy Cheney is very passionate about our industry and he does deserve usefull feedback.
I would like to see a workable licencing system where the No1 requirement would be PL insurance as I suspect that the vast majority of the cowboys wont have it. Also to that end I would like to see a deal done with a major insurance company which will only recognise members of the PWCA at reasonable rates.
I would also like to see a media campaign to bring the PWCA and its members to the attention of the public in such a way that the public will recognise the benefits of using Bona Fida legitimate window cleaners. That doesn't have to be expensive BTW... it could be done very effectively at hardly any cost at all.
Yes the discounts and such like may help but much more important to me is that if membership of the PWCA meant that my company would atomatically be recognised in the same sort of light as CORGI registered plumbers. That is, competent to do a job and has met laid down criteria then I would join tomorrow. I await the outcome of all the hard work and free time given by the prime movers behind the PWCA with interest and the hope that it does become a trully representative and independent body.
Take a look at any Yellow pages... You will see a section for CORGI plumbers. I bet a pound to a penny that 90% of the public recognise that and are willing to pay for a professional service. THAT is where I like to see the PWCA move this insustry towards.
Andrew
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The PWC high glossy magazine!!
Well I would not buy that. Someone has very kindly sent me a few copies foc, and some of it is quite informative, but it is, of short duration in my house, the windowcleaner on the front line as I am. The front line, the foot soldier, earning the bread for the suppliers, the end user. So look after me. Give me a publication that helps me, give me something back for all I'm putting in, and I'll put in a bit more. That magazine is not in touch.
Launch something new. Not something that smells of profit only. Something genuinely in touch with the "END USER". If you are going to be on a committee then work for it. Grrrr
I am in my 20th year as a window cleaner. What edge do I have on any other? I do the job properly, I have slogged through 19 winters!!!!! Give me a gold watch or some recognition before I'm worn out!
Pj
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Thanks for the input guys and Sarah.
Your comments will be taken on board and discussed at tommorrows meeting ,you can be sure of that.
I am off to bed know and will have another look before i set off at 6.00am.
Dave
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most will want something to justify paying the "due's"
thus
cheaper PL insurance
a nice van sticker
Discounted "kit" i wouldnt mind a 45 ft powerpole (eh glyn ;) of course thats not knocking Craigs poles, they do look nice ;))
a drive to make the pumlic aware
and a foot in the door of "comercail work"
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One more for Dave...
Don't sit for too long :-[
Pj ;)
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Good Evening Everyone,
A quick comment on one of matts posts
Matt said: - we know what systems would come out on top, the systems that were "in favour" of the PWCA
any1 care to take a guess at which ?? ? ??
I would like everyone to know, the PWCA is an independent none profit trade association. The PWCA was formed by window cleaners for window cleaners and not by suppliers as some still think. As an association, we will not be influenced by any manufacturer and I do mean any.
We have a big day tomorrow and we will hopefully be able to report back to everyone over the weekend on the outcome of the meeting. (Please do not be begging for details tomorrow, because we all have a long drive home)
Many Thanks
Andrew
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A few things to remember
Having a Licence does not make you a professional window cleaner and the general public or commercial customer won't care if you have one or not.
Having public Liabilty insurance does not make you legal, you can still get benefits and have INSURANCE.
Awareness that you EXIST will count, so if the PWCA can promote window cleaners around the country both to the general and commercial customers then this is a benefit to those that join.
Real discounts from Insurance companys and suppliers would be helpful.
A hardship fund would also be useful in case a cleaner needs help.
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Andrew McCann wrote . . . . bring the PWCA and its members to the attention of the public in such a way that the public will recognise the benefits of using Bona Fida legitimate window cleaners.
. . . how do you quantify and police the ' legitimate window cleaner ' ?
I can see the PWCA being usefull for the w/c employers and w/c Companies but its going to be very difficult to embrace the individual w/c 'ers who must represent the majority in the country
JohnL
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Hey,
I have not renewed my Fed memership of late & await the pwca subcription charge & public liability for traditional self employed domestic window cleaner?
Kevin Windolen.
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Good Evening Everyone,
A quick comment on one of matts posts
Matt said: - we know what systems would come out on top, the systems that were "in favour" of the PWCA
any1 care to take a guess at which ?? ? ??
I would like everyone to know, the PWCA is an independent none profit trade association. The PWCA was formed by window cleaners for window cleaners and not by suppliers as some still think. As an association, we will not be influenced by any manufacturer and I do mean any.
We have a big day tomorrow and we will hopefully be able to report back to everyone over the weekend on the outcome of the meeting. (Please do not be begging for details tomorrow, because we all have a long drive home)
Many Thanks
Andrew
i hope this is the case
but wasnt the PWCA formed with Glyn and Craig as "launch commitee members", i am sure i read somewhere that they didnt want to be, but were persuaded by the people at the meeting
is this no longer the case, has history been changed ?? ?? ?
i in no way want this to seem to be "against" the new PWCA, and i know many see me as arguementative, but thats not the case
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Isee me as arguementative
Hiya Matt,
PASSIONATE would be a better word to use.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with expressing your personal opinions on any subject - after all that is what this forum is about isn't it ???
You obviously have strong opinions on certain topcs (as I do - just dont get me started on Licensing and cowboy w/c's) and as I know from experience it is not everyone elses' views and result in some good debates.
My problem is that when I totally believe in something I cant let go and you seem the same too !!
Can be a really good quality to have Matt and should not be surpressed. Having said that I often retreat before another personal war/attack starts which is not sonstructive or condusive to the concept of this forum.
Life would be dull if it were full of 'yes' men Matt ;) and without help from people like you this forum would not be the source of good, honest and helpfull info it is :-*
Hugs,
Sarah
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i often rethink what i have typed, and then edit it, and instead of "toning" it dowm, i just delete it, thus the "." posts sometimes
life is way too short to be a "yes man" i think thats why some on here dislike me, its because i will now just "tow the line" and sing the praises of something JUST BECAUSE its the "in thing of the moment"
Life would be dull if it were full of 'yes' men Matt ;) and without help from people like you this forum would not be the source of good, honest and helpfull info it is :-*
Hugs,
Sarah
thanks Sarah, i do try and help and the basis of this help is honest UNBAISED help
cheers for the kind words :)
thanks
matt