Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Darren O on November 16, 2011, 05:21:34 pm
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I see you can buy the 6.6vacs on Ebay for £160incl vat and delivery good price but are they realy worth all the hype and how much better are they from the 5.7 vacs.Also posted this on Cleantalk but when ever i post on there i have to wait for approval from one of the mods incase i say something bad or silly.
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Its the guy from Accessory Planet thats selling them
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http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lamb-Ametek-6-6-Vacuum-Motor-230-volt-Model-122236-18-/280773049889?pt=UK_HomeGarden_CLV_Cleaning_CA&hash=item415f60be21
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Good for you Col and whats a few amps and cfm got to do with anything
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Hi Guys could you just stick them in an old portie which needs new vacs(i think a new bracket is required though) and save alot on buying a new jaguar or am i missing something as usual.........Alan
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Hi Guys could you just stick them in an old portie which needs new vacs(i think a new bracket is required though) and save alot on buying a new jaguar or am i missing something as usual.........Alan
Thats what I was thinking!
Basically a 3k machine for under £500 if you include a pump upgrade. Its what ill be doing.
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someone from amtech told me that you couldnt run two 6.6 vacs off a single cord.
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Why?
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Think i will post my humble thoughts on this vac and some alternatives later on another thread insted of hijaking your but ....
No reason you cannot fit them to any machine with afew fitting mods ...
I believe they use the same fitting size as a 7.2 so that would be a straight swap ...
No reason why you cant put two on one cord .... perhaps the guy that told you that was thinking in USA terms ... in the UK the each 6.6 will draw about 5 to 6 amps ...
They are 160 dollers on steambrite but by the time you ship them here +tax etc im sure the e-bay price is good ...
there seems to be no hako tube for hose attachment ... so to fit most machines you would have to get one welded on ... id say any local engineering shop will fit a 1.5 " tube to it for you ...
Good vac overall so snap them up before he sells out :D
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someone from amtech told me that you couldnt run two 6.6 vacs off a single cord.
How are the Airflex Storm and Jags configured?
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Not sure about the airflex but the jag has one vac and the water pump on one cable, and the other vac plus pump-out on the other
John, if the motors could be put 2 to a cable don't you think the UK firms would do that and install a heater on the other cable? ;)
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John, if the motors could be put 2 to a cable don't you think the UK firms would do that and install a heater on the other cable? ;)
isnt that what alltec and extracta do for example ... certainly the ones iv used .. :)
two 6.6 on one cord in the usa @120v = 24 amps
two 6.6 0n one cord in UK @230v = 12 amps
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I think in practice it works out a bit more than that... too close to make it safe.
It's all very well having something intermittently pulling a current close to 13a but something that could be on for hours at a time I think is too dangerous for all that load on a single cable.
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I think in practice it works out a bit more than that... too close to make it safe.
It's all very well having something intermittently pulling a current close to 13a but something that could be on for hours at a time I think is too dangerous for all that load on a single cable.
these will draw a little less than the usual 5.7 ... so if alltec are putting two 5.7 and a pump on one cord ... whats the problem :)
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Time will tell, maybe someone will put two 6.6s on one cable. Begs the question why it isn't being done already. After all, what's the most common thing people say about the high performance machines? Great performance, if it had a heater it would be perfect......
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Time will tell, maybe someone will put two 6.6s on one cable. Begs the question why it isn't being done already. After all, what's the most common thing people say about the high performance machines? Great performance, if it had a heater it would be perfect......
OK ...Go through this list of vacs .... look at the amp drawing , which is given for both 120v and 230v versions ... see how the 230v amp rating is almost half the 120 for each similar vac ...
http://www.centralvacuummotor.com/lighthouse.htm
the reasons why no one put two 6.6 on one cord ...
the jag is maxed out for the USA 120v ... there is no other way they could do it and include ... huge ( to big to me ) pump and auto pump .
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We were born with an autopilot set toward Hell. It is nothing to take lightly - Hell is the single greatest tragedy in the universe - REPENT and Choose Christ Today!
That text is printed on the web page you linked to
If you get your stats from this company who knows what other bull you'll swallow! :D :D :D
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Have a look at this
http://www.centralvacuummotor.com/Product%20Bulletin/122236-18.pdf
Orifice size 1.5" = amp draw of 7.4 amps.
It's a complicated bit of maths but multiply that by two and you get 14.8. Even further mathematical acrobatics would allow you to subtract 13 from 14.8 to result in a remainder of 1.8 amps more than deemed allowable for a UK circuit.
Even if you use a different orifice size it still comes out too much unless you use the sizes that are way too small for the use of these motors in the machines we're talking about
A very reputable and knowledgeable person in our industry has actually put a voltage meter across a 6.6 motor in use and it gave a real-world reading of 7.19A
Like I said, if it could be done it would have been done surely ???
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We were born with an autopilot set toward Hell. It is nothing to take lightly - Hell is the single greatest tragedy in the universe - REPENT and Choose Christ Today!
That text is printed on the web page you linked to
If you get your stats from this company who knows what other bull you'll swallow! :D :D :D
lol ... i didn't know what you were talking about ... i looked at every vac on that site for about an hour ..and didn't spot any of that stuff ...
hope you didn't watch the you tube link ... ::)
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As I understand it's the initial draw at start up where the problem occurs, both vacs on one cable would draw too much, obviously this has not yet been negated even with seperate switching. Going back to the Alltec pro which included a 3k heater, the vacs were on one cable indivdually switched which never caused me a problem. so the issue is with the 6.6 vacs. The Airflex Storm has the vacs split on to each cable with the remote system on one and the pump on the other. The pump out is mechanical. I agree with Colin I don't know why the twin 6.6 works better than tripple 5.7's but it does.
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Have a look at this
http://www.centralvacuummotor.com/Product%20Bulletin/122236-18.pdf
Orifice size 1.5" = amp draw of 7.4 amps.
It's a complicated bit of maths but multiply that by two and you get 14.8. Even further mathematical acrobatics would allow you to subtract 13 from 14.8 to result in a remainder of 1.8 amps more than deemed allowable for a UK circuit.
Even if you use a different orifice size it still comes out too much unless you use the sizes that are way too small for the use of these motors in the machines we're talking about
A very reputable and knowledgeable person in our industry has actually put a voltage meter across a 6.6 motor in use and it gave a real-world reading of 7.19A
Like I said, if it could be done it would have been done surely ???
I said 6 on average ... or 7 thats what you'd expect
I will have to look up the exact model lamb alltec ect use but it wont be less than that ... so it it being done ... two motors + pump one cord no probs ...
Why do think it should have been done ?
only ones using is CA ... they would have to design a machine specifically for the uk ... easier to give us the USA vbersion and let us get an inline heater or whatever .....
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As I understand it's the initial draw at start up where the problem occurs, both vacs on one cable would draw too much, obviously this has not yet been negated even with seperate switching. Going back to the Alltec pro which included a 3k heater, the vacs were on one cable indivdually switched which never caused me a problem. so the issue is with the 6.6 vacs. The Airflex Storm has the vacs split on to each cable with the remote system on one and the pump on the other. The pump out is mechanical. I agree with Colin I don't know why the twin 6.6 works better than tripple 5.7's but it does.
There is no problem or difference with the 6.6 ... with any multi vac machine you would turn the vacs on one at a time anyway as good practise ... but most of the time even turning two at atime does nothing ..
have you tried a triple vac ... even on the CA site they state the cfm for the scorpion as 327cfm .... and the jag as 289cfm( which is wrong ) about 250 more like it
there is no way in hell two motors has more CFM than 3 !!! :)
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A very reputable and knowledgeable person in our industry has actually put a voltage meter across a 6.6 motor in use and it gave a real-world reading of 7.19A
Like I said, if it could be done it would have been done surely ???
so ... the lamb used by alltec here is the same as it makes no difference
http://www.ametekfsm.com/Product_View.aspx?MT=1&Record_ID=6670
what problems do you ever have ... triping circuits ?
if im using a twin vac with 3000w heater ... i plug it all in to the room /circuit
and add a couple of blowers to that at times ..
i seldom or ever trip fuses related to load in room ...
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On my Powrflite i have 2 x 117123-13s '1500W, plus
the water pump 1/2 hp motor on one lead.
The other lead has the heater 1.8Kw, and an outlet
socket i fitted to run my auto pump out. Later models
have a higher heater rating.
with no load on the vacuums, and the pump running
it draws 12.5 - 13.75 amps on lead one. Never had a problem.
Theres tempting fate ::)
Lead two with heater and auto pump out running draws 8.5 Amps.
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As Jim has said the big questions should be can you have two 6.6vacs, a decent pump, auto pumpout and enough voltage left to run a diesel heater or similar with two leads only.
Mark
PS. regarding We were born with an autopilot set toward Hell. It is nothing to take lightly - Hell is the single greatest tragedy in the universe - REPENT and Choose Christ Today!
I completely agree.
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an outlet
socket i fitted to run my auto pump out
Are you willing to share more info on this please?
Do you have any pics of the set up.
I have two of the early model 1350s and would be interested in setting up something similar.
If I dont have more than a decent idea of how its done my engineers will chase me out of the workshop.
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As Jim has said the big questions should be can you have two 6.6vacs, a decent pump, auto pumpout and enough voltage left to run a diesel heater or similar with two cords
Yes , as AJB demonstrates above , however there are a lot of variables and you would have to define what spec you consider to be decent performance .... for ,with example , i dont do T&G and an 800psi pump is wasted on me ... even when using a 500psi 205 i tend to turn way down ...
If you just put the two 6.6 vacs on cord one for example, according to the max rated amp draw that would be max 14 amp , which would be fine , however as you restrict flow you lower amp draw , so take into consideration the machine internal plumbing ,tank , ... add 25-50 foot 2' hose and your whiphose , add the tool , wand ,so in normal use you would be drawing a lot less than the rated max .
On cord two ... say a 500psi 205 on a 1/2 HP pumpmotor will be aprox 300w and draw 1.5 amps ...
lets say the pumpout also draws 1.5 amps
That will leave you with 10 amps ( or more ) to use for your heater etc , 10 amps will get you 2300 watts to use ... so you could safely have a 2000 watt inbuilt heater ...
You could use 1/3 hp pump insted if wanted ...
For diesel heater , not sure if you had the zeta in mind or a hotbox ... the zeta has to power its pump also so should draw a bit more than just a burner on its own ... but i think they just surge at startup and dont draw much during use ..
dont know whos going to build it though ... best to modify your own machine to suit yourself .... the first two 6.6 are sold on e-bay so someone must have plans .... :)
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John, all I can suggest is that you go into business designing and selling portables.
Make sure you offer a good warranty :)
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lol .. many talents
I'll make them sign a disclaimer :)
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Quote Joun Martin
"There is no problem or difference with the 6.6 ... with any multi vac machine you would turn the vacs on one at a time anyway as good practise ... but most of the time even turning two at atime does nothing ..
have you tried a triple vac ... even on the CA site they state the cfm for the scorpion as 327cfm .... and the jag as 289cfm( which is wrong ) about 250 more like it
there is no way in hell two motors has more CFM than 3 !!!"
I will bow to your superior knowledge John I have used the tripple Airflex and now the Storm it just seems to work. Following on from your point, and the general configuration on 5.7 twins with a heater, it makes me wonder why the 6.6 machines are not run the same, must be a reason?
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Quote Joun Martin
"There is no problem or difference with the 6.6 ... with any multi vac machine you would turn the vacs on one at a time anyway as good practise ... but most of the time even turning two at atime does nothing ..
have you tried a triple vac ... even on the CA site they state the cfm for the scorpion as 327cfm .... and the jag as 289cfm( which is wrong ) about 250 more like it
there is no way in hell two motors has more CFM than 3 !!!"
I will bow to your superior knowledge John I have used the tripple Airflex and now the Storm it just seems to work. Following on from your point, and the general configuration on 5.7 twins with a heater, it makes me wonder why the 6.6 machines are not run the same, must be a reason?
I am not Spanish :D
No superior knowledge here , i like you have used a varity of machines including a triple vac , if you do the math you usually end up with more than 250 cfm in a triple vac parallel configuration , 250 is what i believe the jag makes based on the only tests we've seen .
The only machine manufactures that would the 6.6 in the configuration mentioned with the heater would be in the UK ... alltec ect ... it will not work at 120v in the USA . The jag is designed to make the best use of each cord at 120v .
Im dont doubt the twin 6.6 works very well ... but some seems to believe they are reinventing the wheel or posess huge performance .. they are just motors with little metal fans attached like all the rest .
Posted before.. but here is a video of two 6.6 (the jag ) up against two lighthouse 5.7 ( mytee M5)
you can see the lighthouse specs in my ' top vacs ' thread further down ...
The lighthouse out performs the 6.6 here ... and in my specs ... but everyone still wants the 6.6 :/ ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KKAzll_-NA
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On my machine i had the pigtail leads, and hated them,
I searched around to replace them and found these, which
were new to the market at the time, and expensive then.
Amtech have seen them and were impressed.
http://www.ac-et.com/lighting/products/neutrik/cable_and_connectors/powercon_connectors_550/NENAC3FCA.asp
http://www.ac-et.com/lighting/products/neutrik/cable_and_connectors/powercon_connectors_550/NENAC3MPA.asp
The pigtails were replaced by the inlet sockets, the plugs by in inlet plugs.
All internal wiring fitted inside
http://www.maplin.co.uk/general-purpose-abs-plastic-box-a-e-series-43708
A feed was taken off the heater socket inside the machine and run via
http://www.maplin.co.uk/ip65-double-pole-push-switches-517976
fitted on the switch plate, to an outlet socket
http://www.ac-et.com/lighting/products/neutrik/cable_and_connectors/powercon_connectors_550/NENAC3MPBI.asp
The pump out motor is a 12v bilge pump
http://www.whale.ltd.uk/marine/product_list/8/142/ powered by
http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_785261_langId_-1_categoryId_165657
this plugs into the outlet through
http://www.ac-et.com/lighting/products/neutrik/cable_and_connectors/powercon_connectors_550/NENAC3FCB.asp
I didn't want it permenantly fitted, hence the wiring arrangement, it pumps out through a spare porthole lid, via a hozelock non-return valve, although it runs well enough without the valve fitted.
this system allowed me to do one of my schools this summer, usually 6 days work, and crippled at the end
in 2 days.
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Cheers for sharing.
Amtech had an Eco500 at CCC with similar mains cable sockets installed.
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I could have converted mine to the newer sockets
but i wanted something smaller and neater. Those
Neutrik ones popular with Sky and the Beeb, as they
lock in place and can't be accidently pulled out. They
are 20 Amp, although they do a 32 Amp version.
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On my machine i had the pigtail leads, and hated them,
I searched around to replace them and found these, which
were new to the market at the time, and expensive then.
Amtech have seen them and were impressed.
http://www.ac-et.com/lighting/products/neutrik/cable_and_connectors/powercon_connectors_550/NENAC3FCA.asp
http://www.ac-et.com/lighting/products/neutrik/cable_and_connectors/powercon_connectors_550/NENAC3MPA.asp
The pigtails were replaced by the inlet sockets, the plugs by in inlet plugs.
All internal wiring fitted inside
http://www.maplin.co.uk/general-purpose-abs-plastic-box-a-e-series-43708
A feed was taken off the heater socket inside the machine and run via
http://www.maplin.co.uk/ip65-double-pole-push-switches-517976
fitted on the switch plate, to an outlet socket
http://www.ac-et.com/lighting/products/neutrik/cable_and_connectors/powercon_connectors_550/NENAC3MPBI.asp
The pump out motor is a 12v bilge pump
http://www.whale.ltd.uk/marine/product_list/8/142/ powered by
http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_785261_langId_-1_categoryId_165657
this plugs into the outlet through
http://www.ac-et.com/lighting/products/neutrik/cable_and_connectors/powercon_connectors_550/NENAC3FCB.asp
I didn't want it permenantly fitted, hence the wiring arrangement, it pumps out through a spare porthole lid, via a hozelock non-return valve, although it runs well enough without the valve fitted.
this system allowed me to do one of my schools this summer, usually 6 days work, and crippled at the end
in 2 days.
Not familiar with pumpout at all , where do you position the bilge pump , the wiring to the pump and the outlet pipe ?
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Simon
A similar response was made by many when someone presnted an electrically powered motorcycle which was on TV a few days ago...............but the designer has apparently massively increased the power output from the traditional design on his machine which has proven to be more than equal to internal combestion engines.
Unfortunately I only saw a few seconds and don't know which program it was on, but with his engine I reckon the petrol / diesel T/M's days could be numbered.
I should add my comments are based on a very brief viewing but it caught my attention and I'll be looking out for the programme to, hopefully. see it again
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Simon
A similar response was made by many when someone presnted an electrically powered motorcycle which was on TV a few days ago...............but the designer has apparently massively increased the power output from the traditional design on his machine which has proven to be more than equal to internal combestion engines.
Unfortunately I only saw a few seconds and don't know which program it was on, but with his engine I reckon the petrol / diesel T/M's days could be numbered.
I should add my comments are based on a very brief viewing but it caught my attention and I'll be looking out for the programme to, hopefully. see it again
Interesting ... but are you drawing an analogy to the vacuum motor , or the Jag in particular ? Any responce by me is based on fact and there is no mystery as to the design or performance ...
If you've heard different elsewhere its likely to be by those defending a marketing strategy .
As to vacuum motors or other motors generally , the work done is proportional to the energy consumed and you get nothing for free energy wise , and while newer fan designs may slightly alter efficiency , lift and cfm are inversely proportional you are playing around with a limited set of parameters , electrical ,physical .
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It's been argued on here with some regularity that electric motors can't compete with the power of IC engines, but the motors on these machines are incredibly powerful. The smallest ones producing 15 -18 hp, the bigger ones around 40hp .
I may be barking up the wrong tree but a blower powered by a 40 hp motor must surely be more than an equal of the 18 hp diesels or petrol engines currently used.
Seems the advances in electric power have been huge in the past few years as can be witnessed by the number of cars now available.
It's bikes I was reading about and the best for normal use at the moment can do 100 mph and a charge will take it 100 miles. This is not a toy it's a full size bike.
The reason for the additional power from the 6.6's is in better engineering
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It's been argued on here with some regularity that electric motors can't compete with the power of IC engines, but the motors on these machines are incredibly powerful. The smallest ones producing 15 -18 hp, the bigger ones around 40hp .
I may be barking up the wrong tree but a blower powered by a 40 hp motor must surely be more than an equal of the 18 hp diesels or petrol engines currently used.
Seems the advances in electric power have been huge in the past few years as can be witnessed by the number of cars now available.
It's bikes I was reading about and the best for normal use at the moment can do 100 mph and a charge will take it 100 miles. This is not a toy it's a full size bike.
The reason for the additional power from the 6.6's is in better engineering
Ok ... lets just define the ' additional power' of the 6.6
two 6.6 in parallel gives you an additional 40 or 50 cfm over the standard lamb 5.7 , the lift is the same .
40 or 50 cfm is usefull , so i rate the 6.6 as a very good performer but it is not 'huge performance '
In order to get small truckmount performance you need to put two 6.6 in paralllel and add two more in series ..ie four 6.6
As for the ' better engineering ' all thats different is a thicker center fan and a conical bottom ... have a look at my ' top vacs ' thread further down and see that others are using the same design .
As for PD blowers ... the domestic electricity cannot really supply enough power to turn the blower fast enough for big performance ... the bane is about 1.5 HP
... if you have a three phase supply handy and some spare change there is a machine waiting for you ... :)
http://www.steam-brite.com/store/stationary-electric-truckmount-volts-phase-p-11158.html
as for cars ... you cant compare ... would cost thousands to fill your truck with heavy lithium batteries and would have to recharged all night .
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maybe when PV Panels improve more we will have solar TMs.
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maybe when PV Panels improve more we will have solar TMs.
A 4kw system would be 20 grand ... and you better buy an artic to put them on :)
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What you're saying is true to a certain extent..................a formula 1 racing engine the same size as a production car has been " engineered " to obtain the maximum power from what is basically the same unit.
Like wise you will find electric motors or pumps or blowers of the same proportions made of the same materials and powered by electricity at the same wattage...............BUT WITH HUGELY DIFFERENT PERFORMANCES so, theory is fine , but theory is only the start of the development journey and the evolution that follows.
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What you're saying is true to a certain extent..................a formula 1 racing engine the same size as a production car has been " engineered " to obtain the maximum power from what is basically the same unit.
Like wise you will find electric motors or pumps or blowers of the same proportions made of the same materials and powered by electricity at the same wattage...............BUT WITH HUGELY DIFFERENT PERFORMANCES so, theory is fine , but theory is only the start of the development journey and the evolution that follows.
But you dont get anything for nothing in terms of energy transfer ... in the case of the F1 car the cost of making your 2.5 engine high powered is more energy needed in terms of higher fuel consumption ... in this case 3.5 mpg of racing fuel ...
Im no expert on these motors , but i can see that there are parameters that determine the performance ... the size of the electric motor ... the width/ mass/heigth of the fan ...
Lift and cfm are inversely proportional ... if they alter one parameter to increase performance it decreases it some where else ..
eg ... this 5 stage motor has over 200" of lift .... but at the cost of cfm which is only 60
http://www.centralvacuummotor.com/Lighthouse/LH-HVLP-5S.jpg