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UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: windows_chepstow on November 08, 2005, 08:31:14 pm

Title: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: windows_chepstow on November 08, 2005, 08:31:14 pm
In another thread, Nel asked Ian his views on ladder usage.  I've jumped in with a new post.

Quote from: neil100 on November 08, 2005, 07:56:40 pm
Ian what does it say in the mag that you think ladders will become extinct?

cheers Nel.

Well the Regulations, as they are say you can't use ladders for window cleaning without considering the safer alternatives to working at height.

Ian Greenwood, head of HES's Falls from Height Programme said:

Quote
These Regulations do not ban ladders but say they should only be used only when all other safer alternatives for work at height have been ruled out.  A risk assessment must show that the task is low risk and of short duration, or that there are site features that mean other equpment is not appropriate.  If so, then ladders can be used

Can you tell I'm a touch-typist?

Philip Hanson, editior of PWC Magazine says that he's been told by HSE that trades such as window cleaners and painters can't cite the 'short duration' as a defence to using ladders (as in it only takes a few minutes to clean a bedroom window) because you're up a ladder so much during a working day.

Therefore, for routine window cleaning, ladders are effectively banned already!

I think. 

But no-one from HSE has clearly stated that to my knowledge.  You've got to read between the lines.  The guidance notes to the regulations aren't much cop either.

They start of with these rules apply to the self employed and then cite employees and employer responsibilities.

Then, on the other hand I've hear rumours that there will be a ladder ban enforced in 2007.  This ties in with a post I remember reading where Philip Hanson (editor of PWC Mag) in which he suggested there would be two year lead up time where you could get yourself off ladders and onto WFP.

This could be at total ladder ban maybe?  Not just one which says you can use ladders where there are no other alternatives.

I'm confused too.

Anyone the wiser?  Can anyone shed some light on the '2007 ladder ban' rumour (which I'm helping to perpetuate - a chargeble offence in the army, as rumours are never good for morale)?
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: Sir Squeaky on November 08, 2005, 08:47:37 pm
It won't happen.

What about those who don't want to(or can't) shell out big money?

What about painters and decoraters?- A paint-fed-pole?
What about roofers? - A tile-fitting-pole?
What about ariel and Sky fitters? - A better-reception-pole? ::)

There'll be a huge to-do if there's any talk of trying to ban ladders.
It will be a national headline, and mass petitions and defiance.

They won't put half a million-odd people out of work. ;)

Rog.
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: windows_chepstow on November 08, 2005, 09:36:41 pm
Roger,

If you read the rules, I think they've already done it.

I believe there's already been a 'furore' in other industries too; such as roofers.

We're just not complying!

That's me included; I still use ladders.
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: rosskesava on November 08, 2005, 09:43:31 pm
I may be wrong but I don't think so but wasn't the then WAHD (now the WAHL) also about the safe use of ladders in order to reduce injuries?

Cheers
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: H h20 on November 08, 2005, 09:45:40 pm
If know one has read it then here it is,Gaz
http://www.hse.gov.uk/press/2005/e05110.htm
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: windows_chepstow on November 08, 2005, 10:09:18 pm
Quote from: Gaz (previously Hh20) on November 08, 2005, 09:45:40 pm
If know one has read it then here it is,Gaz
http://www.hse.gov.uk/press/2005/e05110.htm

I've read it, Gaz.  Part of it was in my original post.  It seems to say that 'ladders are a last resort'!

One part of me says 'Wahay', I can ride the back of a ladder ban.  I could leaflet all Roger's areas saying 'Do you know it's illegal for window cleaners to use ladders to clean your windows; not only that, but some window cleaners have fallen and been injured and attempted to sue their customers through 'No Win; No Fee' scumbag lawyers (and I wouldn't be lying; they have).

But another part of me says that this would be wrong.  We all make our own choices and if we want to risk ourselves, cleaning from a ladder; then we're not hurting anyone else in the process.

So who cares?

But it's definately a WFP marketing tool!

Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: Sir Squeaky on November 08, 2005, 10:12:52 pm
Quote from: Tosh on November 08, 2005, 10:09:18 pm
I could leaflet all Roger's areas saying 'Do you know it's illegal for window cleaners to use ladders to clean your windows; not only that, but some window cleaners have fallen and been injured and attempted to sue their customers through 'No Win; No Fee' scumbag lawyers (and I wouldn't be lying; they have).
Wouldn't get you much mate!

Most of them don't want wet spotty windows. ;D
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: windows_chepstow on November 08, 2005, 10:36:34 pm
Quote from: Squeaky Clean. on November 08, 2005, 10:12:52 pm
Quote from: Tosh on November 08, 2005, 10:09:18 pm
I could leaflet all Roger's areas saying 'Do you know it's illegal for window cleaners to use ladders to clean your windows; not only that, but some window cleaners have fallen and been injured and attempted to sue their customers through 'No Win; No Fee' scumbag lawyers (and I wouldn't be lying; they have).
Wouldn't get you much mate!

Most of them don't want wet spotty windows. ;D

I'd like to see the results of your actual survey, Roger, but I think I wouldn't get any of your customers because they like you!  Sometimes it's not how clean the windows are, it's a 'personality contest' of sorts.

I know one of your customers (not personally), when they moved from your round, found a new window cleaner then sacked him because they found you again.  And the window cleaner they had was a good un'.  So that's a compliment.

But you're right Roger, most customers don't want wet-spotty windows!

You just stick with your ladder.  I've enough competition round here.

Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: Sir Squeaky on November 08, 2005, 10:43:18 pm
Ha ha!

Yeah only joking, it's mainly a case of them knowing me for 8 years and used to the way I do it.
They're happy enough.

I've looked at a lot of my accounts and found I couldn't do quite a lot of it with a pole anyway, those ones you mentioned at the top of Hardwick Ave. for a start.
Wouldn't fancy getting it around the back and over fences, and couldn't do the ones on the roofs.

A lot of my jobs aren't very straightforward, but sometimes a pole could help.

Enough anyway, we're veering off-topic. :-\

Cheers, Rog.


Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: windows_chepstow on November 08, 2005, 10:58:02 pm
So what do you reckon?  Are ladders banned for routine window cleaning for self-employed window cleaners?

I reckon, even though I still use them myself, that they are.
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: neil100 on November 08, 2005, 11:13:13 pm
I see someone mentioned painters.

Theres a Victorion hospital that as now been coverted into town houses nearby. Their are 10 town houses in a block alltogether. Some resedeints wanted their windows painted. Health and safety would not allow them to use ladders.They had to scaffold the lot at a cost of £30000.00.

Health and safety have a lot of power. Ignore at your peril.

Nel.
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: Paul Coleman on November 08, 2005, 11:18:10 pm
Quote from: Tosh on November 08, 2005, 10:58:02 pm
So what do you reckon?  Are ladders banned for routine window cleaning for self-employed window cleaners?

I reckon, even though I still use them myself, that they are.

They probably are.  I do think that you're allowed to hop over a roof and down the other side though as there doesn't seem to be a reasonable alternatve to that.  The proble with this is that we would probably be expected to hump a backpack and a pole over the top too.  I think I would be doing the back windows of such a place with the ladder that I climbed over with - especially if I'm out of sight.  Saves heaving all the equipment over with me.
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: Paul Coleman on November 08, 2005, 11:19:51 pm
Quote from: neil100 on November 08, 2005, 11:13:13 pm
I see someone mentioned painters.

Theres a Victorion hospital that as now been coverted into town houses nearby. Their are 10 town houses in a block alltogether. Some resedeints wanted their windows painted. Health and safety would not allow them to use ladders.They had to scaffold the lot at a cost of £30000.00.

Health and safety have a lot of power. Ignore at your peril.

Nel.

Sounds like they might as well have UPVC fitted to save on ongoing charges.
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: gaza on November 08, 2005, 11:22:26 pm
Ive just been on three sites were they will not allow trad ladder use ,succeded in gaining
two sites and  the third one is on its wayabout 240 houses to go at so keep on usuing ladders lads and do me a favour.

  gaza
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: Sir Squeaky on November 08, 2005, 11:34:48 pm
Gaza it will be interesting when you come to do the intial cleans without a ladder.

How are you going to hack off cement and silicon with a wet brush?

Have the builders removed all of the protective plastic for you?

Wfp's useless until someone's prepared it for you.
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: ValueValeting on November 09, 2005, 12:10:38 am
Quote from: Squeaky Clean. on November 08, 2005, 08:47:37 pm


What about painters and decoraters?- A paint-fed-pole?

i remembered seeing this on QVC many years ago, http://www.homeright.com/showitem.asp?zitem=1

I'll get me coat.
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: steve k on November 09, 2005, 01:34:03 am
each house is effectively a site and as you will be finished in 10 -15 minutes, it can be argued that you are using ladders as a short term and temporary access method so can be used assuming other safe methods have been considered but in your health and safety assessment are not practical for this particular site.
Windows that can not be cleaned effectively with WFP would make the safer option of WFP impractical for that particular site and so could be cleaned with ladders.
If so, all practical safety measures must be used if using ladders.

Painters should use scaffolding as do roofers.
Sky installers now have to wear helmets and fall arrest harness and use ladder stand offs.
The arrest harness is not able to be attached to a fall restraint but still has to be worn.
It would be impractical due to cost and temporary nature of work for them to erect scaffolding.
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: Ian_Giles on November 09, 2005, 09:02:26 am
Quote from: steve k on November 09, 2005, 01:34:03 am
each house is effectively a site and as you will be finished in 10 -15 minutes, it can be argued that you are using ladders as a short term and temporary access method so can be used assuming other safe methods have been considered but in your health and safety assessment are not practical for this particular site.


As you are spending all day, every day up and down a ladder, this argument won't hold water with H & S.

I have even stopped working off flat roofs now (the felt variety) On the other forum (I think) there was one guy whose foot had gone through, apportioning blame and fault was a huge headache, blow that for a game of soldiers, I explain that to customers, just not worth the risk or bad feeling.

Getting off ladders is something all serious workers need to do, the sooner you do it the better, 18 months ago there were only a couple using WFP around here, I'm seeing them all over the place now.
Whether we like it or not, at some point in the future we will no longer be climbing ladders.

Ian
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: Paul Coleman on November 09, 2005, 09:24:31 am
Quote from: Ian_Giles on November 09, 2005, 09:02:26 am
Quote from: steve k on November 09, 2005, 01:34:03 am
each house is effectively a site and as you will be finished in 10 -15 minutes, it can be argued that you are using ladders as a short term and temporary access method so can be used assuming other safe methods have been considered but in your health and safety assessment are not practical for this particular site.


As you are spending all day, every day up and down a ladder, this argument won't hold water with H & S.

I have even stopped working off flat roofs now (the felt variety) On the other forum (I think) there was one guy whose foot had gone through, apportioning blame and fault was a huge headache, blow that for a game of soldiers, I explain that to customers, just not worth the risk or bad feeling.

Getting off ladders is something all serious workers need to do, the sooner you do it the better, 18 months ago there were only a couple using WFP around here, I'm seeing them all over the place now.
Whether we like it or not, at some point in the future we will no longer be climbing ladders.

Ian

That's an interesting point about apportioning blame Ian.  One of my feet went through a flat roof once - fortunately just the felt and decking.  Luckily, there was a tarpaulin in the garden so I made it watertight.  It happened during a period of alternating blistering heat and torrential rain a few years back.  I think the felt joint melted and allowed the rain in.  The roof was over 20 years old and well overdue for replacement.  We exchanged insurance details.  His house insurance coughed up for a fully decked roof.  The old roof was chipboard (now illegal I believe).  The replacement was marine ply and some type of silicon finish which was guaranteed for 20 years.
Anyway, because he claimed on his insurance, he paid a £50 excess which he wanted from me.  I pointed out to him that because I put my foot through his roof, he had a brand new roof for £50 (the job cost was about £800) and that the roof was in poor condition and badly needed replacement anyway i.e. I saved him £750.  He must have thought about it because on my next visit he said to forget about it - then promptly cancelled the window cleaning (no prob as it was only a £6 job anyway).
Another interesting point arises from this though.  The instance I've cited was just some damage to a roof.  If the incident had caused me to fall from the roof (or through it) and caused me harm, I feel that I would have had good cause to sue him (or his insurance co.) for the injuries.  I say this because the roof was not maintained and the only way to clean two of his windows was by climbing onto the roof.  I say that was permission to climb onto the roof was implied even though not directly discussed.  Also, he had previously seen me up there and never told me not to.
A legal minefield I think.
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: williamx on November 09, 2005, 09:27:02 am
It does not matter how you read the new regulations its how your local council and H & S office will.

If you want to carry on using ladders then do so, but remember when the council gestapo come a knocking, don't cry about it.
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: steve k on November 09, 2005, 03:04:29 pm
Page 15, issue 4 (October) of PWC has a response from Ian Greenwood, head of HSE Falls from Height Programme.
Worth a look.
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: bumper on November 09, 2005, 03:27:14 pm
what about firemen they climb ladders, what do they do watch em burn  ;D
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: windows_chepstow on November 09, 2005, 05:11:44 pm
Quote from: bumper on November 09, 2005, 03:27:14 pm
what about firemen they climb ladders, what do they do watch em burn  ;D

Bumper, read the regulation.  Emergency services are covered and exempt.
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: neil100 on November 09, 2005, 05:31:54 pm
Quote from: The Shiner on November 08, 2005, 11:19:51 pm
Quote from: neil100 on November 08, 2005, 11:13:13 pm
I see someone mentioned painters.

Theres a Victorion hospital that as now been coverted into town houses nearby. Their are 10 town houses in a block alltogether. Some resedeints wanted their windows painted. Health and safety would not allow them to use ladders.They had to scaffold the lot at a cost of £30000.00.

Health and safety have a lot of power. Ignore at your peril.

Nel.

Sounds like they might as well have UPVC fitted to save on ongoing charges.


Shiner,

Its classed as a listed building therefore no upvc windows can be installed.

Scaffolders dream, Now thats what you should be getting into.

Regards Nel.
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: telboy on November 09, 2005, 06:00:56 pm
Quote from: Squeaky Clean. on November 08, 2005, 08:47:37 pm
It won't happen.

What about those who don't want to(or can't) shell out big money?

What about painters and decoraters?- A paint-fed-pole?
What about roofers? - A tile-fitting-pole?
What about ariel and Sky fitters? - A better-reception-pole? ::)

There'll be a huge to-do if there's any talk of trying to ban ladders.
It will be a national headline, and mass petitions and defiance.

They won't put half a million-odd people out of work. ;)

Rog.
REGARDING SQUEAKY'S


MORE AND MORE  PAINTERS BUILDERS ROOFERS NOW HAVE TO USE SCAFFOLDING

THINK OF THE VICAR WHO HAD TO SHELL OUT £1500.00 TO HAVE HIS LIGHT BULBS CHANGED

DOING OUTSIDE MAINTAINANCE ON YOUR HOME IS GOING TO COST A FORTUNE

BEST START UP A SCAFFOLDING BUSINESS ??? ???

TEL BOY ;)
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: Paul Coleman on November 09, 2005, 06:16:20 pm
Quote from: neil100 on November 09, 2005, 05:31:54 pm
Quote from: The Shiner on November 08, 2005, 11:19:51 pm
Quote from: neil100 on November 08, 2005, 11:13:13 pm
I see someone mentioned painters.

Theres a Victorion hospital that as now been coverted into town houses nearby. Their are 10 town houses in a block alltogether. Some resedeints wanted their windows painted. Health and safety would not allow them to use ladders.They had to scaffold the lot at a cost of £30000.00.

Health and safety have a lot of power. Ignore at your peril.

Nel.

Sounds like they might as well have UPVC fitted to save on ongoing charges.


Shiner,

Its classed as a listed building therefore no upvc windows can be installed.

Scaffolders dream, Now thats what you should be getting into.

Regards Nel.

I suppose I should have guessed that it might have been listed really when you called it an old Victorian hospital.  UPVC wouldn't look right on a place like that.
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: neil100 on November 09, 2005, 06:40:52 pm
Tell you what I've been doing some old Large terraced houses today.

Really high buggers, to make matters worse.they've planted a jungle right in front of the windows, I feel like Tarzan traversing through the undergrowth before I can reach those windows.

I,m thinking cant wait till I do these with wfp. Then horrer of Horrers I reliaze the wooden frames are abouselty in crappy condition.

Do I try cleaning them with wfp knowing i'm going to do a real crappy job?But at least I'm safe or do I still carry on traditionl?


UHHHHHHHHHHHHH. Nel
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: williamx on November 09, 2005, 07:28:11 pm
neil

just clean the glass and leave the frames well aLONE
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: neil100 on November 09, 2005, 07:38:17 pm
ummm.

Even on a first clean?

Nel
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: williamx on November 09, 2005, 08:10:31 pm
Neil

On a first clean if they are really dirty clean with wfp but add a drop of gg3 or 4 then rinse off with pure water.
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: rosskesava on November 09, 2005, 08:33:35 pm
Hi Tosh

Quote
So what do you reckon?  Are ladders banned for routine window cleaning for self-employed window cleaners?

I reckon, even though I still use them myself, that they are.

No they are not banned, illegal or anything else unless over 9 metres.

What is illegal though is using them in a way that is concidered dangerous etc.

At present, and this is the law, a window cleaner only needs to have looked at alternatives and considered that a ladder is the best option and if he takes all due caution while using the ladder then he is 100% legal.

If he takes a risk while using the ladder in anyway, i.e. no type of safety device for the feet, overstretching, on one leg, and so on, then that is contrary to the WAHL.

Ladders may be banned in the future but they haven't been yet.

Cheers
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: Steve Lowe on November 09, 2005, 09:00:15 pm
Hi Ross
           I attended the hse meeting at Summerfield House along with several others and we are due out a hse statement shortly but you are right ladders are not banned but can only be used where a safer alternative cannot be used after undertaking a risk assesment Of course you will get window cleaners carrying on like they always have but as soon as an accident happens this is when there problems will start.

Steve
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: rosskesava on November 09, 2005, 09:23:25 pm
Hi Steve

I forgot to add the risk assessment bit.

That's one other area of H & S legislation that is not really clearly defined in terms of the self employed w/c. There's no clearly defined benchmark by which he can judge whether his risk assessment is complete or not or even whether it is viable or not.

Quote
Of course you will get window cleaners carrying on like they always have but as soon as an accident happens this is when there problems will start.

How true is that. I've been reading a whole pile of stuff about how those that ignore common sense and the WAHL's are in the main the ones that have done so in the past and how to target those types of workers that have that mentality and who work at hieght.

It was scary reading. I think the authorities intend to clamp down very hard but are at present being a bit sort of 'nice' about it just for a short while.

Cheers
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: dai on November 09, 2005, 10:01:24 pm
In what way do they mean consider safer options? Ok I look at a job and I consider it, then decide to do it off a ladder. I have considered it havn't I.
My pole system has been down for a week, got my Veristream back today so back to WFP tomorrow. What was I to do? Take a week off?
Accidents will happen. It's a fact of life. Thousands of kids are killed every year crossing the road. It's tragic I know. Should kids be banned from crossing the road? I don't know where people get the stats from concerning deaths of window cleaners falling from height. Every time I see them they are different. 2, 10,14.
How many window cleaners are killed in road accidents every year?
I go onto WFP and my insurers for the last 12 years AXA now decide not to cover window cleaners for accidents.
I don't drink and drive, I always wear a seat belt, but I will not give up going up a ladder in the morning when I can legally go paragliding in the afternoon. It defies all logic.
Incidently, my mrs and me have had our best day earnings wise ever today.
Same work as we do every month. Today I did the tops off a ladder and the WFP system left in the house. Where am I going wrong? Dai
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: rosskesava on November 10, 2005, 12:51:12 am
Hi Dai

It's not about whether accidents happen while crossing the road. That is for those who legislate about road safety. Accidents will happen and will always happen. It's about reducing risk and reducing the chances of an accident hapening.

Alternivately, just because there is a risk crossing the road you therefore take a risk using a ladder?

The H & S not only have to consider safety. If that was their only mandate then everything that would be likely to cause an accident would be banned. Imagine that scenario. They do have to take into account that business has to run.

Imagine if H & S had to legislate on safety only about driving without taking into account anything else? Or about North Sea oil? There would be no cars on the road and no gas or oil.

Safety is about understanding the risk and taking precautions to to minimise that risk.

They have a duty also in terms of industry and that essential part of business that many don't want to hear about and which we all understand - profit.

As I wrote above, it is legal to use ladders.

Also, the law distinguishes between leasuire pursuits and employemnt. One is a risk taken according to freedom of will, and the other is pursuit of a living wage. Imagine if there were no laws regarding the workplace?

Quote
Today I did the tops off a ladder and the WFP system left in the house. Where am I going wrong?

Provided you had looked at the alternatives and decided the way you decided to  work was the best for the job being done, and you took all due care and attention to the safety aspects involves for that method and applied them, then that is legal.

I defy anyone to prove otherwise and back it up because I can back up what I'm saying.

Cheers


PS I've added this later - last year 2 known deaths occured to w/c's whilst working. How many people were injured or died as a result of cleaning their own windows, I can find no data. Deaths from DIY, now that is a different story and seems to be missed in the WAHL's.
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: Ian_Giles on November 10, 2005, 06:42:52 am
Hi Ross,

I love your replies on H & S!

you give very considered answers, always well thought out, in the main I completely agree with you.
But there is the arguement the H & S can use...are there viable alternatives?

In almost every case there are. In 18 plus months I have only had to climb a ladder to actually CLEAN windows on a handful of occasions, and this was because it wasn't viable to do it with WFP.

You can break everything down and make your arguements incredibly complex as you try and fathom your way through H & S legislation.
The deeper you dig, the less clear it all becomes, and you can end out making a case for almost any point of view.

There are no alternatives to crossing the road, there are thousands and thousands of miles of roads, milliions of houses are linked to them, crossing them is utterly unavoidable, ergo it is an arguement that cannot really be used.

But when talking about ladders and their use it CAN be broken down to a simple couple of questions, and it really matters little about correct and safe usage of them.

Are there alternative methods? Are those methods reasonable and practical? Are they safer than using ladders?

When the answers to those questions are no, then you use ladders and apply the correct guidelines when using them.

According to the magazine, these are really the kind of questions that are going to be increasingly applied, the legality of ladder use isn't really the question, there are times when use of a ladder is the only practical solution.

When you apply this simple criteria, it is an easy thing to begin to enforce it, they are going to do so, we all know that, it is only a question of time......until then, keep climbing those ladders!!

Regards,

Ian
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: Sir Squeaky on November 10, 2005, 08:04:51 am
Nothing's definate as I said before.
They're not going to put huge amounts of people out of work and ruin their unemployment figures.

It seems to me that wfp users are praying for this to happen so they can justify their pricey purchase to others. ::)

I don't own a wfp system, so it's not an option for me, and therefore using a ladder is the safest method available to me.

I could dangle on a rope from the roof, but no, I'm doing it the safest way available to me - hence I am within their rather vague guidelines.

Rog.
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: Terry_Burrows on November 10, 2005, 08:17:51 am
scare mungering thats all its about :P there are people who cannot wait
for those words,that are not coming,ladders are banned,its not practical
to do this :Dthey are just saying if ??? :-\ there is another way to clean other than use a ladder,ie pole then do so,so the wfp cant crack open the champers, :othe fact is we all need all of the tools all of the time 8) ;)
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: Philip Hanson on November 10, 2005, 10:25:44 am
It is interesting to see the steady change that has taken place over just a year.  I remember similar topics to this being discussed here not long after the proposal doc came out, and the attitude of many was "oh it'll take 10 years to come about" and "they have been saying they're gonna do this for years" and "nothing will ever change".

And here we are the regs have been law for 6 months and they are certainly having an impact!  Over time it has become apparent to many more window cleaners what can be considered "reasonably practicable" and what isn't.

Window cleaners are not the only trade affected by the regs, but our industry has been one of the most affected.  The reason is that, by sheer coincidence, they have come along at a time when a new method is starting to be widely available for window cleaning that doesn't involve work at height, and this is not really the case for other trades.

Yes painters, decorators, roofers etc all use ladders and work at height.  The regs won't affect them quite so much, because they don't really have an alternative.  (Even if they use scaffolding, this is still work at height) but us window cleaners do have an alternative, and because of that it is harder for us to be able to justify work at height.

Another point to bear in mind is cost.  Normally, in order to comply with new H&S regs, companies must spend money.  When the HSE drafts new legislation it has to take into consideration the cost of compliance.  It will not make unreasonable demands on an industry.  But, with window cleaning, this situation is somewhat different.

Even before the regulations came about, window cleaners were changing over to using poles because they were finding that they were not only safer but also faster too.  This being the case, window cleaners cannot really argue that the cost of using the safer system is prohibitively expensive, because the efficiency advantage makes economic sense even without any safety benefit.  The HSE knows this, and I think that is a potential basis for them to require window cleaners to use pole systems, except where the nature of the site doesn't allow it.

10 years ago, ammendments to the Health & Safety at Work Act became law in the UK, and contained some of the first ever work-at-height regulations in Britain.  This came about becuase statistics showed that falls from height, and particularly falls from ladders, was causing an unacceptable number of deaths and serious injuries to workers.

The accident rate has not improved over the last ten years, and  so now the Temporary Work at Height Regulations restrict working at height, and again particularly the use of ladders, even further.  There isn't really any other way that the use of ladders could be restricted any more.  In ten years time, I think that if the accident rate doesn't improve, then we really will be facing an outright ban on using ladders.

It's tempting to think that couldn't hapen here, but don't you believe it.  Holland has had an outright ban on ladders in place since it first adopted the European Directive, and several other European states are considering the same.  All trades, from window cleaners to roofers have to find other means to work (usually cherry pickers) and this has meant only larger companies that can afford the outlay have survived in those trades.

As window cleaners, we need to be able to use ladders.  There are situations that just can't be done any other way.  But in order for us to be able to continue to use them when necessary, we also need to make sensible choices about when they aren't the most appropriate method.  If, as an industry, we prove that we can't make that choice sensibly, then eventually the HSE will certainly do it for us, and that really would be a disaster for window cleaning.

-Philip
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: Terry_Burrows on November 10, 2005, 12:41:18 pm
 ;)Yes well put philip  ;)that would be a problem :-\
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: Ian_Giles on November 10, 2005, 02:46:22 pm
A further point to make; COST.

You can be up and running for well under £2000. And that's a complete system with enough water to last you all day.

Sorry, but this is not a great sum of money is it?

Not really when compared to almost any other industry.

Set yourself up as a decorator, or an electrician, or a plumber or carpenter. It'll cost you far more than that today.

You can bleat all you like about cost, but it just isn't prohibitively expensive to get into, certainly not for the one man band.

It may well hurt your pocket for a while, but for those who are serious about staying as a window cleaner then it will not put them out of business.
If such a relatively small sum of money would put you our of business, then you are only hanging on by your shirt tails anyway.

I think that even taking the cost of a custom built (as against DIY) WFP system, we are still one of the cheapest industries to start up in.

Fancy being a car valeter or carpet cleaner? check out the prices their gear :o

I think we are very lucky indeed that we have a cost effective and affordable option.

Regards,

Ian xxxxx
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: windows_chepstow on November 10, 2005, 04:17:42 pm
Quote from: Ian_Giles on November 10, 2005, 02:46:22 pm
A further point to make; COST.

You can be up and running for well under £2000. And that's a complete system with enough water to last you all day.

Ian xxxxx

You can be up and running for less than £600!  And after your first WFP cleans, expect an increase of 30% (ish) in your turnover.

David (St Ives) put together a van mounted system and a back pack (which is no worse and maybe superior to a 25 litre trolley system) for £800 (van not included in that price).

I've just knocked out three days ladder-work in less than two days using my back-pack.  I finished at 2.00 pm because I felt it a bit cheeky to go cleaning someone's house 3 days earlier than scheduled.  (Two days is okay though ;D).

So I went for a pint in the local and was asked to give a quote for that pub too!  £35 per clean, ground floor only; once a fortnight and it's just round the corner from me.  I'm doing it tomorrow morning.

Sod safety and the rules; get a WFP; just make sure the system you get is suitable for your type of work.  I just use a back pack and it's made a world of difference to my work and income.

I'm getting another for Wor Lass.

Does anyone want to swop a back pack for a 50 litre trolley, 60 psi pump, battery and charger?  I'll throw in a 2 to 4 foot Ionics pole for free (not the brush head though).

I've heard it said here that a WFP is not a magic wand; but used correctly it bloody well is. 

I'm still getting over the 'less effort + safer + quicker = greater income' syndrome.

Life just isn't usually like that!

Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: AuRavelling79 on November 10, 2005, 05:06:43 pm
Quote from: Tosh on November 10, 2005, 04:17:42 pm
I've heard it said here that a WFP is not a magic wand; but used correctly it bloody well is. 

Abracadabra!
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: Terry_Burrows on November 10, 2005, 05:32:15 pm
lets hope you all dont go Poof and your gone ;D ;)
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: Sir Squeaky on November 10, 2005, 08:06:49 pm
If he is a poof he hides it well ;D
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: Moderator David@stives on November 10, 2005, 08:22:30 pm
I would bet with anyone that within 2 years 80% of window cleaners younger than 50 years old will have a wfp.

Any one want a bet
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: williamx on November 10, 2005, 08:29:31 pm
HSE's 'Ladders Week' starts Monday

Falls from height are the number one cause of workplace deaths and one of the main causes of major injury in the workplace - and almost a third of falls are from ladders. Last year 13 people died from falls while working on a ladder, and over 1,200 people suffered major injuries. The Health & Safety Executive's (HSE) national initiative to promote the safe use of ladders, 'Ladders Week', which begins on Monday, will feature events where HSE inspectors will work with ladder users and their employers, look at the current use of ladders and suggest sensible measures to improve safety.
During Ladders Week, each HSE local office is organising its own events, many in partnership with trade associations, local employers and equipment hire companies. These events include Safety & Health Awareness Days, practical demonstrations of alternative equipment to ladders and breakfast meetings with employers and health and safety professionals.

To coincide with Ladders Week, HSE will be producing free guides to help raise awareness of the risks associated with ladder use and giving advice on how to use them safely.

Ian Greenwood, HSE Falls from Height Team Leader, said: "With a little more planning and assessment of the risks, understanding of the limitations of ladders, proper maintenance and checking that users are competent, many of these accidents could be avoided.

"A major injury, such as a broken bone or fractured skull, can often be a life changing event for the person concerned and their family. Quite apart from the personal suffering, an injury of this sort can adversely affect earning power and job prospects for a long time after the accident."
The key points to achieving increased ladder safety are:
•
• Using risk assessment to establish what is the most suitable work equipment when people have to work at height, taking into account the conditions and type of work to be done.
• Knowing the limitations of the ladder; employers should contact suppliers or manufacturers if they need more information.
• Ensuring users are competent in the safe use of ladders, including any accessories.
• Ensuring ladders are maintained in safe working order. Pre-use checks are critical as damaged ladders often continue to be used. In particular, missing ladder feet will increase the risk of a ladder slipping or stepladder wobbling.
• A ladder should only be used where a risk assessment demonstrates that the task is low risk and of short duration, or where there are existing features on site that cannot be altered and the use of other equipment is not practical. Such features include restricted space preventing other equipment from being put in place correctly or ground conditions that mean that there is no suitable area to set up alternative equipment. 

Further information to help people who work at height, employers, and others with responsibilities under the law, is available free on the HSE website at: www.hse.gov.uk/falls/. The website includes a number of 'from experience' case studies of falls from ladders, together with advice on the precautions that should be taken to prevent such accidents.

Information about events during Ladders Week and contact details for more information are available on the HSE website. Alternatively, information is available from local HSE offices whose contact details are on the HSE website at: www.hse.gov.uk/contact/maps/index.htm

10.11.05

 
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: windows_chepstow on November 10, 2005, 08:51:29 pm
Quote from: david@      St-Ives on November 10, 2005, 08:22:30 pm
I would bet with anyone that within 2 years 80% of window cleaners younger than 50 years old will have a wfp.

Any one want a bet

In Chepstow, it's getting easier to name the non-WFP users than to name the WFP users.

Let's see:

WFP Users that I know (personally; not just through this site):

Ian Giles
Tomo
John H
Me


Non-WFP Users that I know:

Roger
Simon G (whose interested in getting WFP set up)
Terry P (whose interested in getting WFP set up).
Ben P and his Missis (probably hasn't heard of WFP)
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: Moderator David@stives on November 10, 2005, 08:55:01 pm
so nearly there then ,

the older die hard generation may take longer to adapt a local wc said to me he his 2 old to invast and will see his time out with the ladder.

The younger guys will take to it more enthusiastically

Dave
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: poleman on November 10, 2005, 08:59:40 pm
The big problem with the window cleaning industry which is the WAHD says if there is a safer way of doing it, it should be done and as an industry unlike any other we have a safer way (WFP)

As some of you mite know there was a meeting between the Fed and the HSE over a month ago, and if you saw the news night (2) it did said that the laws will be tightened!!!!!!!!

If you have read TWAHD it does say the each trade association will have it own set guidelines for there industry, I will be contacting HSE tomorrow regarding these new guidelines and when they are coming out, BUT from my view point NO ladders will not be BANNED    
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: windows_chepstow on November 10, 2005, 09:14:31 pm
Quote from: PoleMan on November 10, 2005, 08:59:40 pm
If you have read TWAHD it does say the each trade association will have it own set guidelines for there industry, I will be contacting HSE tomorrow regarding these new guidelines and when they are coming out, BUT from my view point NO ladders will not be BANNED    


Andy,

I've read the Working at Height Directive, but not the 'T' WAHD.

What does the T stand for, and have you a link to the guidelines?

Also, when you say from 'your point of view' that ladders will not be banned, do you mean that regardless of the rules, if you think it's suitable to use a ladder; you'll use it; no matter what the law says?
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: windows_chepstow on November 10, 2005, 09:22:01 pm
At a guess, I think the 'T' stands for Temporary.
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: poleman on November 10, 2005, 09:35:30 pm
Tosh

Its just abbreviations! All the same meaning. Here is the regulations...  

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg401.pdf

My view point of the new guidelines they wont ban ladders, but the present set come out before TWAHD so are out of date http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/misc613.pdf

As an employer I would not sleep at night if I did not give my staff the safest way of working, WFP.

Andy
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: rosskesava on November 10, 2005, 09:37:27 pm
Hi Poleman

We use wfp for a lot of work and am I glad that our ladder use is a lot less than it was.

What you have written is that ladders are banned.

Quote
the WAHD says if there is a safer way of doing it, it should be done

So that means that because there is always a safer way of cleaning windows than using a ladder so ladders are banned because ...........

For window cleaners the WAHL's states that alternatives need to be looked at first.

At present - that is it. If a w/c uses a ladder then it has to be for a short duration and done safely.

Also, this may sound like nit picking but what other word could replace the word 'should' in your posting. 'Needs to', 'must be',.... the word 'should' implies many things and is not specific. The first part of that statement of yours (the WAHD says if there is a safer way of doing it, it should be done) is specific and precise, the second part is not precise and this is what I think causes so much confusion.

I'm not having a dig and if it seems so then I apologise but with laws like the WAHL's, 'precise' is so important as the wording in the WAHL's is.

As for Newsnight, after watching the original twisted and consumer orientated hype designed to grab veiwers attention and start a whole lot of spin off's designed to do more of the same.......It's like the old Dr Who series where it ends with the Dr or someone in mortal danger.

I think I'll wait for the actual changes to be introduced instead and then read them on the H & S website and not go by carefully edited hype by people skilled in the art of subtle deception whilst saying the truth in a concealed manner.

Right, I'm off my soap box now.

Tosh

I think T stands for 'The'.... maybe?

Cheers

Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: geoffreyspecht on November 10, 2005, 09:46:33 pm
first of all ladders are not banned for window cleaning otherwise there would be a lot of window cleaners out there breaking the law, including one of the biggesy window cleaning campanies in the country ocs their window cleaners still use ladders
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: Sir Squeaky on November 10, 2005, 11:09:22 pm
Quote from: Tosh on November 10, 2005, 08:51:29 pm
In Chepstow, it's getting easier to name the non-WFP users than to name the WFP users.
Strange...

I know you, Ian and John(who does a lot of trad work).

But I know at least 7 people with no interest in pole work at all.
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: Ian_Giles on November 11, 2005, 12:06:53 am
Wow Tosh, you surprise me, I never thought that Simon would consider getting into it.
I'm not going to insult him on here, he may have learned how to plug a computer in ;D
If a stick in the mud like him is thinking about it then it really is becoming mainstream.
Mind you, he will have seen me in action and will know about your new system.

Stick with the ladders ~Rog, there won't be enough houses to go around otherwise 8)
Tosh, make sure you tell Simon that the only option is the full blown Ionics hot water system....now won't we look stupid if the begger goes and gets one :o

Ian
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: Sir Squeaky on November 11, 2005, 08:01:42 am
Ian, I spoke to Simon a few days ago, and he has no interest in wfp at all.

He's just going along with Tosh raving about it.

He's perfectly satisfied with his current technique.
Quote from: Ian_Giles on November 11, 2005, 12:06:53 am
Stick with the ladders ~Rog, there won't be enough houses to go around otherwise 8)
Wrong way around actually. ;)

The more wfp'ers around the more work I pick up from customers unhappy with spots and runs.
It's getting more and more regular now. 8)

Rog.
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: gaza on November 11, 2005, 08:25:01 am
yeah and the more they build 3 high new houses the more nice coimpact round Iwill have,
priced up 3 new building sites in a month about 200 houses cus no one can do them trad ;D ;D the sales  girls are putting my brochure in the welcoming pack
and giving me the nod when people  move in,also I  clean the show houses +marketing suite already for 38  squid for 12 windows+2 french doors.

  gaza
so look at the nice building sites your missing out on.

200 x £10= £2000

 gaza
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: windows_chepstow on November 11, 2005, 04:52:25 pm
Quote from: Squeaky Clean. on November 11, 2005, 08:01:42 am
Ian, I spoke to Simon a few days ago, and he has no interest in wfp at all.


Roger,

Did Simon ask you to do his shops recently, when he went on holiday? 

He asked me first.  I said I couldn't fit them in, so he said he'd ask you to do them.  He doesn't know I know you.  I didn't let on either.

Don't believe a word that comes out of Simon's mouth.  He's a few 'issues' he should be receiving professional help with.

I say as little as possible to Simon, I have issues with him, and it was he who was paying an interest in a WFP and its extra earning power.

Simon also told me that Ray (taxi driver) was considering returning to window cleaning because he found out about WFP from Matt.

I'll be in Portwall Road, then Green Street on Monday or Tuesday (depending on when I'm wanted for a large three story job in the sticks).  But it's just round the corner from where you live.

Roger, you're more than welcome to drop-by and see a simple - cost effective - system in use.  No 'kerfuffle'; just quick clean windows and frames with a lot less effort than ladders.  Oh, nearly forgot, safer too.

If you're cleaning with ladders £30 an hour; your prices must be good; and this'll boost your income even more.

I really can't understand your anti-WFP stance, mate.  Honestly.  Keep an open mind and try it first.

Remember, it's no skin off my nose if you use ladders and very probably the reverse if you ever do convert to using a WFP.  Smart people make their decisions based on all the knowledge they can gather. 

I'm not anti-ladder.  I used them a few times today myself.  No problems.

Call me old fashioned, but you're a local window cleaner and a member of this forum that has helped me greatly in my new business.

I'm just trying to return the help that others have and still give me.

It's not an 'us and them' issue.
 

Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: Sir Squeaky on November 11, 2005, 06:12:41 pm
Nice post Tosh.
It's not personal with anyone, I just hear too many complaints from customers and I don't want all the problems and the extra to do before or after work.

I don't do £30 all the time, probably closer to £23.
My prices are generally a lot less than your's, I'm just a fast worker.

If I had your prices I could do £30.
£7 for terraces in Lord Eldon?!!! Less than 10 mins work!! Cheeky.  :o

Fair play to you!
I'll try to catch up with you in the week.

Not that you'll ever get me to put myself through all that..... ;)

Rog.

Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: Terry_Burrows on November 11, 2005, 07:14:20 pm
 ;)by the time you pole people get ya poles hoses signs we would be done gone and on to the next job,home feet up drinking through a straw and a umbrella ;D and in the winter we wont have a dirty great ICE CUBE in the back ;D :o ::)
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: Moderator David@stives on November 11, 2005, 07:25:20 pm
Terry

you may be quick ,but you are getting on a bit now and getting a bit bigger around the middle.   ;D
Do you think you will still be as quick in 10 years time ?

Dave

ps no insult intended   :o
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: Terry_Burrows on November 11, 2005, 07:31:13 pm
no insult taken ;Dthe fact is dave my time now is very fast,will I break it not sure,can I break it, :-\ YES as long as I go out of the world as NO ONE
thats all that matters ;)as for me :-\I will be triming down very shortly and losing a stone or more,thats not easy as axmas is coming ;)as we all know
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: Moderator David@stives on November 11, 2005, 07:35:28 pm
Terry

On the world record do you have to detail the edges and do you have to make sure every inch is clean .
What is the criteria to have a succesful result in cleanliness

Dave
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: dai on November 11, 2005, 07:44:55 pm
Whatever the eventual outcome as to bannig ladders or not, there is one very imporant principle. The law must apply equally to all. It should be transparent.
You can't have laws that say, it's ok for jack to use a ladder because he's a painter, and they havn't invented a machine yet that can prepare and paint the surface, and then prosecute Jill for using a ladder for window cleaning because someone invented a WFP.
Where the regs use words like "and having considerd all safer options". They transfer the onus onto the guy doing the job. What one  person may consider as a safer option may be regarded as a greater risk to another.
 I guess most of you guys like me hate getting off the ladder and going on a pitched foof to clean a window. To me I'm safe untill I get on the roof, then I worry. Are the tiles  nailed in or one could go from under my foot as I stand on it. A big sigh of relief when you make it safely back to the ladder. We'v all been their at sometime or other. I have a mate who is a roofer. He tells me the exact opposite. He never feels safe going up the ladder. He's happy once he gets on the roof.
 I think this illustrates my point perfectly.  What he considered as a safer option is totally different to me.
Now if I am to be prosecuted, it will be because my idea of safe practice differs from anothers. Forget window cleaning for a minute. This act applies to all who work at heights. OK We have WFP, The other trades do not have a totally new system of working.
The new law must be written in a clear way that all of us can understand.
Ban ladders, Ok ban ladders. We would then know exactly where we stood.
You can't prosecute someone because he considered a different option as safer.
The law must be applied equally to all. Our justice system is based on this principle. DAI
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: tomo on November 11, 2005, 08:31:19 pm
i spoke to an electrician today who is also a customer i explained the change over to wfp and he said he was suprised it had taken this long for us window cleaners to have to comply like the rest of them;

 they have to use platforms or scaffolding,  ladders are a BIG no no. The same for a plumber who was fitting a fire place and had to get access to a roof he too had heard of the new regs and said the alternative for them was a platform or scaff the same for painters . The point is its the COST that bothers them all the most ::) not their saftey.

Tom
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: alan_t on November 11, 2005, 08:56:10 pm
well i'll certainly carry on using ladders.
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: JohnL on November 11, 2005, 11:13:31 pm
Tomo

'' for them was a platform or scaff the same for painters ''

regretably tomo that may be untrue.

It seems at this stage the WaHR is being interpreted from different viewpoints.

 I am a painter and decorator and the association has advised :-

  ''  There is a misconception that ladders are banned by the Work at Height Regulations. This is not the case. The preferred use of ladders is for light work of short duration when other equipment is not suitable.

The primary objective of the new legislation is to eliminate at height where possible, to ensure that ALL work at height is performed safely and that equipment has been approriately selected, whether it is from a mobile access tower, scaffold or ladder. Carrying out a risk assessment is the obvious way to ensure you comply with the new regulations.

The WAHR requires employers and the self employed to put in place arrangements for:

 . Eliminatimg or minimising risks from work at height.
 . Organising and planning work at height.
 . Selecting suitable work for equipment to perform work at height.
 . Ensuring training and abilities of users.


                  Ladders must be suitable for the task undertaken.

 . Leaning ladders should be placed at the correct angle.
 . Leaning ladders should be secured to prevent slippage.
 . Ladders should be placed on a firm level surface with the rungs horizontal.
 . Users should face the ladder at all times whilst climbing or dismounting.
 . Stepladders should not be used sideways-on where sideways loads are supplied.
 . Only one person should climb or work from a ladder or a stepladder.
 . Do not overreach.
 . Ladders should be stored correctly.
 . Ladders should be checked regularly before setting up and inspected regularly.


Be aware that the '' two metre rule '' has not been included within WAHR. This means that measures have to be taken at any height where there is a risk of a fall liable to cause personal injury. If you are already following good practice for work at height, it is not necessary to change what you are doing.

                         REMEMBER:   SAFELY,  SENSIBLY,  SECURELY

                                                         --------------------


That was received from the association this year and has not been revised or amended since.

So as I said earlier, it seems the regulations are being read differently by different people and some to suit their own needs.

Sorry to impose this view but as a long time lurker and part-time w/c I find these forums and discussions of immense value, and I am fairly sure this will lead to even more interesting reading  :)

JohnL
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: rosskesava on November 11, 2005, 11:51:47 pm
I do not understand what is so complex. No where in the WAHL's does it say that ladders are banned.

If they are to be used then they are to be used safely. It is so mind numbingly simple that I do not understand what the problem is.

I think there is, on this forum, the doomsday machine postings by some that one step on a ladder means instant death. Mix into that the wfp versus traditional methods (why the competition?) and then add into that postings by members who read into the law just what they want to because wfp is everything gold and shiny and trad is old and from the days of dinosaurs, and what have you got?

For those that go on about ladders, how about some actual quotes froms the H & S?

Ladders are not banned as of today. Whatever my own personnal thoughts on the subject, in law, ladders are not banned.

Cheers
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: poleman on November 12, 2005, 12:04:14 am
Have to agree ladders are not going to be banned and we should find out over the coming weeks.

Andy
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: mattstanley on November 12, 2005, 11:34:26 am
For me, the key phrase refers to that fact that safer alternatives should be used if practicable.

I'm just starting with wfp after many years of ladder work and I know this will mean that I shall be working with a lot less risk.  However, there are parts of my work where wfp is not practicable, so I shall be using a ladder in these instances (safely of course).

Ladders won't be banned - if they are, we'll all be in trouble.
Title: Re: So, are ladders banned in light of recent media coverage regarding WCs?
Post by: sandy on November 12, 2005, 01:14:33 pm
why are glasgow city councils own in house window cleaners-
   still useing ladders to clean schools,council buildings etc do you think they dont know about the new laws or wfp I dont think so.These euro laws can be manipulatedto suit.Do you think tony blair is going to put sixty thousand window cleaners on the dole for using a ladder SCREW THE NUT BOYS