Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: AuRavelling79 on October 12, 2011, 08:50:31 pm
-
GQC Tim - you recently asked a wfp supplier why they changed their view about supplying hot water systems.
It appears you were told by forum admin to go direct to the supplier for an answer.
When you get an answer would you let us know whether you believe the reasons given have merit?
Thanks.
-
I don't see no problem in that. Sure.
-
I'd like to know too. Best post I've seen on here in months and admin steps in. Not good exposing how cynical some suppliers are I suppose.
-
Good thread, as was the original by Tim.
-
Yep good reply from Joanne, hope you don't mind me copy/pasting this here, I don't want people to get the wrong idea of the closed topic and start insinuating things about CIU or Brodex. Very kind lady, took the time to explain their stance and certainly food for thought. She did explain as well about the dilemma/balance of posting things on a forum as a supplier. Thanks Joanne!
If the below is against forum rules as well, please let me know, don't want anyone getting in trouble. :)
Good point highlighted below! 4 years ago we didn’t have the Flame or any hot water products in our portfolio but since 2007 then yes, we have introduce our own. The facts of the statement are true, and I do believe the science behind the resin manufacturer’s statement was true but it just needs to be applied in context, which is what we have worked on.
Basically when water (solvent) is in it purest form it becomes an ideal cleaning tool as it naturally wants to return to an impure state as quickly as possible, so it attracts the dirt. That’s the basic chemical principle behind pure water technology.
The cleaning is actually a chemical reaction – the rate of the chemical reaction increases with temperature. The same chemical reaction happens, it doesn’t change the process at all but the heat basically speeds it up. In fact an increase of 10 degrees actually doubles the reaction rate.
Therefore, pure water cleans exactly the same without heat. The process of retuning to an impure state will happen with or without heat. The only difference is it happens faster with heat, and if a reaction is faster then the cleaning process will be more corrosive to the material it is working on. The issues of high temperature and glass remain exactly the same, if the temperature is too high it will cause problems.
However, our opinion after research is that if you manage the temperature so it is not too high to be considered damaging, then you can have the faster more corrosive cleaning power, without damaging the material you are cleaning. This is why it is recommended by Brodex for First Cleans/ Builders Cleans– in these cases there is simply more dirt to remove so the corrosive nature of the cleaning reaction is working on this and not the frame material.
We have one of the UK’s leading expert water chemists here at Brodex, so if you want to discuss the chemical reaction and effect of water with increased temperature/ reaction rate I can ask him to give you a call if that would help? Just let me know your number. I presume you’re posting this query because you are looking to make a decision on a hot water system? If that’s the case and you need anything else then please let me know.
Hope this clears it up for you, you never know, in another 4 years we might have discovered even more ways of make the job easier. Feedback from users always helps so I’d be genuinely happy to hear from you on any other issues. It helps keep us thinking and trying to come up with new ideas…
If you want to be added to the Brodex promotional list to receive new product information and special offer alerts then send me your contact details and I’ll opt you in.
Have a good day!
Kind Regards
-
What a fantastic and in depth response from brodex. Very informative indeed.
-
And many thanks to Gold for brining this good news to our attention.
-
What a fantastic and in depth response from brodex. Very informative indeed.
You are having a giraffe aren't you?
All I see in that response (by using seven words where one will do) is:
Warm water speeds up the cleaning process and as long as you don't spend too long or too hot while scrubbing no damage will be done. Well duh! All that other guff is smoke and mirrors.
An arrow has been shot into the fence and now a target is being painted round it because "all the other" hot water suppliers have been selling it with no come-back whatsover.
The ... band ... jumping ... wagon ... on ... - rearrange to make a well-worn phrase.
Pseudo-science at its finest!
-
What a fantastic and in depth response from brodex. Very informative indeed.
You are having a giraffe aren't you?
All I see in that response (by using seven words where one will do) is:
Warm water speeds up the cleaning process and as long as you don't spend too long or too hot while scrubbing no damage will be done. Well duh! All that other guff is smoke and mirrors.
An arrow has been shot into the fence and now a target is being painted round it because "all the other" hot water suppliers have been selling it with no come-back whatsover.
The ... band ... jumping ... wagon ... on ... - rearrange to make a well-worn phrase.
Pseudo-science at its finest!
'ow long have you held this grudge, Gold?
-
when they started swearing at him.lol :P ;D ;D ;D ;D
-
rofl!
-
so this would work if i use a 3kw element as well
-
Let's sum up what was said. To be fair, I believe only one point of the following list was addressed, but it was the one point I think where most people were concerned about, the corrosiveness of hot water.
I think even the most experienced marketing expert would find it hard getting out of the fact that the other points were not very smart to list on their site. It's similar to traditional window cleaners slating wfp to their customers, then a year later trying to convert all customers to wfp, because it's now all of the sudden great. You can be sure the customers would certainly raise some eyebrows, complaints, and doubts.
As for the points, I do think Brodex did shoot themselves in the foot with it.
REASONS NOT TO USE HOT WATER
• Can crack the glass
• Unnecessarily high running costs
• Extremely high initial outlay
• Increase leaks on machines
• Increases the corrosiveness of the
water
• Is an expensive gimmick
1. Yes it can, but you'd be doing something very wrong. Can happen though, and fair point if it was a random standalone quote.
2. Would entirely depend on when and where you'd use it. Diesel heaters are more expensive to run then LPG ones. But if you use it on the right jobs you'd crank out a much higher hourly rate, hence it's 100% worth running a hot system. Most people would argue that even on regular work, they are faster, so yes the running costs are higher, but the advantages are definitely there, and more money is made.
3. Extremely high initial outlay is perhaps true for a Diesel heater since the actual heater is already a lot of money, but if it was that bad, nobody would buy them, and Brodex might as well sell stick with cold systems, as their systems would be extremely expensive and bad value for money. Also, there is a great price difference depending on what company sells the hot system. My hot system was with all bits and bobs £400. Not much considering the potential earnings to be gained.
4. Increased leaks on machines, again that would depend on the setup, I setup my system the right way, and I don't have any leaks now. Only leak I had was plastic hozelock, I've tried a pro metal hozelock and so far no leaks. This would discredit their ability to make a waterproof system, considering somebody like me (apparant amateur system builder) can actually make it run without leaks.
5. Corrosiveness, Joanne did bring up some good points, but I do think considering in what context it was originally put (reasons why NOT to use a hot wfp system) it did contribute to that argument, and was not a balanced view. Brodex did not say that, sometimes, if used properly, it can be used safely.
6. An expensive gimmick. That simply should have never been put on the website, that's the reason why over the years Brodex has gotten critical comments on this topic. If it was or is a gimmick, Brodex are doing the wrong thing selling these systems to the consumer, pulling the wool over their eyes.
Even though Joanne did a great job in my opinion on explaining the corrosive bit, the rest of the original statement was a bit of a marketing nightmare.
-
You know? I have never, ever, ever, EVA! once cracked a glass in our dishwasher?
Funny that.
-
You know? I have never, ever, ever, EVA! once cracked a glass in our dishwasher?
Funny that.
Because the glass wasn't near freezing to begin with. Thermal shock is quite common if you take a icecold piece of glass and pour hot water over it. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, you don't have hot water in a split second in a dishwasher either.
-
I think hot is the key factor here,how hot is damaging.A lot of the hot water
users don't crank up the heat in the winter,but just enough to carry on working.
Thermal shock is or can be a problem from what i have read.But in the summer our water is compared to winter hot ,so is the summer water damaging and should we cool it down ;D
-
>Andy Pritchard - "How long have you held this grudge gold?"
when they started swearing at him.lol :P ;D ;D ;D ;D
;D
Very good guys! But in answer to Andy - no grudge here - I just don't like organisations taking window cleaners for fools.
Think about it - some greenhorn turns up with a few grand redundancy in his pocket and comes to this forum for advice - I did and am so grateful for it - well good for him/her; that's what its primary reason for existence is - to discuss window cleaning issues.
If a manufacturer/supplier provides consistently good stuff, good service and a helpful attitude then I will speak highly of them. If they make claims you can drive a "coach and horses" through and gain a reputation for high-handedness, complacency and frothy marketing and not much substance then I will tell it as I see it.
-
>Andy Pritchard - "How long have you held this grudge gold?"
when they started swearing at him.lol :P ;D ;D ;D ;D
;D
Very good guys! But in answer to Andy - no grudge here - I just don't like organisations taking window cleaners for fools.
Think about it - some greenhorn turns up with a few grand redundancy in his pocket and comes to this forum for advice - I did and am so grateful for it - well good for him/her; that's what its primary reason for existence is - to discuss window cleaning issues.
If a manufacturer/supplier provides consistently good stuff, good service and a helpful attitude then I will speak highly of them. If they make claims you can drive a "coach and horses" through and gain a reputation for high-handedness, complacency and frothy marketing and not much substance then I will tell it as I see it.
No, mate, that's too good to be true. You think that YOU alone can save some 'poor' critter from a factory-job from 'losing' their money to Brodex? That's SO kind of you to intervene, what an ANGEL you are.
What you looking for? Some 'greenhorn', as you put it, telling everyone how grateful they are to YOU for 'saving' them from the vicious grasp of a supplier? Are you sifting for converts for your church?
As for telling 'it' as you 'see' it... pull the other one. I've heard all that crap before. You step in to 'help' someone, in this case the entire community of the world's window cleaners, from the vile claws of a supplier, and lo! These guys are ever so grateful that You, ALONE! Shone The Light to give them the 'truth'!
Maybe I'm wrong? Tosh will come along in a minute to save his friend...
-
Andy Andy Andy ....
You start off by thanking me for the thread ...
Then ...
And many thanks to Gold for brining this good news to our attention.
And then you come up with the above tirade.
You're all over the shop Andy! ;D
-
That is funny andy, first great topic then boring topic, which one is it.
Rather than trying to make a humorous comment on every topic maybe you should check to see what you have already written so you can get some continuity.
Are you actually SSWC? Because you are about as funny as him.
-
What does 'SSWC' mean?
btw, Gold, just sayin' it how it looks. Speak as you find and all that.